WALES INTERNATIONAL: GAMES, SQUADS, TOURNAMENTS, CHAT - SUMMER TOUR & SEASON 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Here it is:

Springbok team to face Wales in Cape Town:
15 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 17 caps, 12 pts (1t, 2c, 1p)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulon) – 19 caps 18pts, 50pts (10t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 27 caps, 25 pts (5t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 59 caps, 35 pts (7t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 26 caps, 100 pts (20t)
10 – Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers) – 61 caps, 613 pts (6t, 83c, 131p, 4d)
9 – Jaden Hendrikse (Cell C Sharks) – 3 caps, 5 pts (1t)
8 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 12 caps, 0 pts
7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (Toyota Verblitz) – 59 caps, 25 pts (5t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 64 caps, 30 pts (6t)
5 – Lood de Jager (Wild Knights) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Cell C Sharks) – 99 caps, 15 pts (3t)
3 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 47 caps, 5pts (1t)
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Cell C Sharks) – 49 caps, 50 pts (10t)
1 – Trevor Nyakane (Racing 92) – 55 caps, 5pts (1t)

Replacements:
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 48 caps, 55 pts (11t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 60 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Wasps) 33 caps, 0 pts
19 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 52 caps, 5pts (1t)
20 – Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs) – 20 caps, 5 pts (1t)
21 – Elrigh Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 1 cap, 0pts
22 – Faf de Klerk (Canon Eagles) – 37caps, 25pts (5t)
23 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 73 caps, 60 pts (12t)

What has happend? to Wales
I was expecting a tighterh game than whet i saw yesterday/ Will there be an improvement against England?

Read an interesting stat on Twitter today (admittedly I haven’t fact checked it though): Wales had 18 trips to opposition 22 in the opening two games for only two tries. However, interestingly we had two more visits than Scotland and one less than Ireland. Yet the scores were obviously heavily stacked in the opposition’s favour. So is it mainly finishing and composure in the 22 that’s the issue with Wales? Surprised we had similar visits to Ireland and Scotland as the games felt much more one sided.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Read an interesting stat on Twitter today (admittedly I haven’t fact checked it though): Wales had 18 trips to opposition 22 in the opening two games for only two tries. However, interestingly we had two more visits than Scotland and one less than Ireland. Yet the scores were obviously heavily stacked in the opposition’s favour. So is it mainly finishing and composure in the 22 that’s the issue with Wales? Surprised we had similar visits to Ireland and Scotland as the games felt much more one sided.

Tafka, that kind of stat used to puzzle me too. Then I rationalised it like this; if you get into the opposition's 22 and get turned over then they usually kick to clear their lines. You get the ball and work your way back in and get turned over again. Repeat and repeat. So lots of visits and very few points.

OR
You get in and score. You're in the lead and you can defend this by kicking deep and counterattacking off turn over ball(Copyright W Gatland esq.), or from penalties kicked to the corner as teams pinned back in their half and chasing the score line tend to be penalised at the breakdown. This assertion is 100% correct 83% of the time).

So a team who are good at taking their opportunities don't need to visit their opponents 22 very often but a team who are unimaginative in attack can be camped in there for extended periods for fecc all reward.

jimbopip wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Read an interesting stat on Twitter today (admittedly I haven’t fact checked it though): Wales had 18 trips to opposition 22 in the opening two games for only two tries. However, interestingly we had two more visits than Scotland and one less than Ireland. Yet the scores were obviously heavily stacked in the opposition’s favour. So is it mainly finishing and composure in the 22 that’s the issue with Wales? Surprised we had similar visits to Ireland and Scotland as the games felt much more one sided.

Tafka, that kind of stat used to puzzle me too. Then I rationalised it like this; if you get into the opposition's 22 and get turned over then they usually kick to clear their lines. You get the ball and work your way back in and get turned over again. Repeat and repeat. So lots of visits and very few points.

OR
You get in and score. You're in the lead and you can defend this by kicking deep and counterattacking off turn over ball(Copyright W Gatland esq.), or from penalties kicked to the corner as teams pinned back in their half and chasing the score line tend to be penalised at the breakdown. This assertion is 100% correct 83% of the time).

So a team who are good at taking their opportunities don't need to visit their opponents 22 very often but a team who are unimaginative in attack can be camped in there for extended periods for fecc all reward.

Especially as you now have the goal line drop out...

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Read an interesting stat on Twitter today (admittedly I haven’t fact checked it though): Wales had 18 trips to opposition 22 in the opening two games for only two tries. However, interestingly we had two more visits than Scotland and one less than Ireland. Yet the scores were obviously heavily stacked in the opposition’s favour. So is it mainly finishing and composure in the 22 that’s the issue with Wales? Surprised we had similar visits to Ireland and Scotland as the games felt much more one sided.

The game v Ireland was over at half time and Ireland therefore sat back and defended their lead a bit.

In both matches Wales have been both blunt in attack and have conceded position at the set piece in very attacking positions.

We lost lineout a when with 10m of the line in both games, we even conspired to be offside at our own attacking scrum.

One thing the previous Gatland regime managed to do was to get players to perform above the level they have shown for their regions. On the showing of the first two games, we aren’t even up to regional standard.

Been listening ro rugby union daily Chris jones , UGO Monye.John Barkley, abd Jiffy. jIFFY seems to think that Wales will beat England next rime around. OK, OJ he is WELSHfter all but in all honesty going over the last 2 games the way Wales have played and the way England have played does any one think Wales could beat England ?

Wow. Things just aren’t getting better for wales.

No jokes from me on this, I’ll just say for the good of welsh rugby and all the individuals impacted directly, fingers crossed for a speedy and satisfactory resolution to all the issues currently being faced

Yeah, it’s a bit of a sh*t show. But hopefully it shines a light on how bad the WRU have been. I know the regions themselves have perhaps not been amazing in their own affairs over the years, but the real amateurishness of the WRU is really being exposed now.

Lots of stuff coming out now. One of the most worrying for the regions is that the 6 year deal they’ve all be thrashing out, apprently the WRU has stated that the funding (and they include monies the regions earn themselves, so it’s not just a handout) will go from £26m this year down to £18m by the end of the 6 years. Add in inflation over that period and you can see how screwed the regions will be. I get the feeling the WRU is just waiting for one of the regions to fold and then the £26m down to £18m doesn’t seem so bad when split between 3. I think they want 3 but haven’t got the balls to get rid of one, even the one they majority own (Dragons).

This is being reported now by Stefan Thomas. Madness!:

“It’s my understanding talks have taken place which could potentially see Ealing join the URC under the WRU. Would entail one of the regions either folding or merging with Ealing.”

(WOL)

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:This is being reported now by Stefan Thomas. Madness!:

“It’s my understanding talks have taken place which could potentially see Ealing join the URC under the WRU. Would entail one of the regions either folding or merging with Ealing.”
(WOL)

Bloody hell. That would get caught up in the courts for bloody ever. Starting with whether the RFU has jurisdiction or the WRU over Ealng, and that is just the start. And if Ealing finish in the top part of the table, could they still qualify for Europe? at whose expense? Could also just be the owner of Ealing trying anything he can to have a team in the top flight. Any top flight.

Questions, questions, questions.

Its one of the more absurd things I have heard. Not a chance

doctor_grey wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:This is being reported now by Stefan Thomas. Madness!:

“It’s my understanding talks have taken place which could potentially see Ealing join the URC under the WRU. Would entail one of the regions either folding or merging with Ealing.”
(WOL)

Bloody hell.  That would get caught up in the courts for bloody ever.  Starting with whether the RFU has jurisdiction or the WRU over Ealng, and that is just the start.  And if Ealing finish in the top part of the table, could they still qualify for Europe?  at whose expense?  Could also just be the owner of Ealing trying anything he can to have a team in the top flight.  Any top flight.  

Questions, questions, questions.

There was similar speculation about London Scottish (who are at least affiliated to the SRU) joining the URC (or whatever it was called at the time) a few years back.

Nothing came of that, largely I suspect because the SRU were not keen on funding it. Ealing have deeper pockets, but they may not be deep enough!

BigGee wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:This is being reported now by Stefan Thomas. Madness!:

“It’s my understanding talks have taken place which could potentially see Ealing join the URC under the WRU. Would entail one of the regions either folding or merging with Ealing.”
(WOL)

Bloody hell.  That would get caught up in the courts for bloody ever.  Starting with whether the RFU has jurisdiction or the WRU over Ealng, and that is just the start.  And if Ealing finish in the top part of the table, could they still qualify for Europe?  at whose expense?  Could also just be the owner of Ealing trying anything he can to have a team in the top flight.  Any top flight.  

Questions, questions, questions.

There was similar speculation about London Scottish (who are at least affiliated to the SRU) joining the URC (or whatever it was called at the time) a few years back.

Nothing came of that, largely I suspect because the SRU were not keen on funding it. Ealing have deeper pockets, but they may not be deep enough!

If Ealing's pockets were that deep they'd have built a new stand with seating to comply with the Prem regs so they could be promoted.

File this with the "two Welsh clubs ready to be parachuted into the PRL to replace wasps and Worcester"
Absolute bobbins.

If this is really a proposal, then have the WRU not learnt anything over this past 20 years of regional rugby?  Do they want to run pro rugby or not?  Or just stick their toes in occasionally?  Look how far Ireland has come in that same period?  The WRU oversaw the creation of 'regional' rugby which was, lets be honest, just a case of picking sides with millionaire backers behind them so the WRU didn't need to take much risk.  When the backers got fed up then the whole structure started to come unstuck.  And yet, with this proposal they're looking to involve the rich sugar daddies again?  And this time from outside Wales?!  Ludicrous.  

Plus, what a kick in the teeth for those clamouring for more valleys rugby.  I've not been one of them because a) 'valleys' is not an actual place.  It's a collection of very distinct and unique small towns and villages. And b) none of these places seem to have the resources or population to support pro rugby.  But putting that aside for a moment, if people are saying that areas of Wales such as the valleys have been ignored and this great 'reset' is a way to address that........then what a smack in the b@lls to then look to London instead!

Shameful, bloody shocking. The world can now see what some of us have suspected/known for years (didn't know about the sexism, but goes to show how amateur they are). Can HRH please sack the WRU? Sack everyone.

WTF guys!!!
I cannot believe each and every update on the state of the WRU. I don't think I'll complain about the IRFU ever again.
I truly do feel for all Welsh rugby fans more and more with every revelation, lets hope there are no more, there's a lot to be sorting out as it is. There surely needs to be a complete rebuild starting with the ejection of the current suits to be replaced with members who actually give a damn and who will listen to the needs of the clubs and fans.

I'm glad all of this is coming our in the wash, Pete. For years on here I get the sense that other nations just saw us Welsh fans as just moaning. Yes, there was probably a fair amount of moaning as per most fans, but a lot of it was genuine and justified as regards the union.

I think it just all comes down to the anarchic structure and governance we have. People at the very top with zero credentials to be running a £100m business. I look to some of the other unions with envy when I see the bods they've got at the top pulling the strings, then I cringe with embarrassment at the guys we've got. Imagine them getting round the table with other union leaders! I've heard reports that other unions have been perplexed when meeting our big wigs as they're not fit to be in the roles they find themselves. When we've got in big business people they've left due to the amateurism of the organisation (see Amanda Blanc recently). An absolute sh*t show.

BigGee wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:This is being reported now by Stefan Thomas. Madness!:

“It’s my understanding talks have taken place which could potentially see Ealing join the URC under the WRU. Would entail one of the regions either folding or merging with Ealing.”
(WOL)

Bloody hell.  That would get caught up in the courts for bloody ever.  Starting with whether the RFU has jurisdiction or the WRU over Ealng, and that is just the start.  And if Ealing finish in the top part of the table, could they still qualify for Europe?  at whose expense?  Could also just be the owner of Ealing trying anything he can to have a team in the top flight.  Any top flight.  

Questions, questions, questions.

There was similar speculation about London Scottish (who are at least affiliated to the SRU) joining the URC (or whatever it was called at the time) a few years back.

Nothing came of that, largely I suspect because the SRU were not keen on funding it. Ealing have deeper pockets, but they may not be deep enough!

I don't see this one flying unless he moves Ealing to Wales and merges them with an existing Welsh region, there's no way the RFU would allow it. Also if it's going to a club in England surely London Welsh would be the obvious choice?

Irish Londoner wrote:

BigGee wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:This is being reported now by Stefan Thomas. Madness!:

“It’s my understanding talks have taken place which could potentially see Ealing join the URC under the WRU. Would entail one of the regions either folding or merging with Ealing.”
(WOL)

Bloody hell.  That would get caught up in the courts for bloody ever.  Starting with whether the RFU has jurisdiction or the WRU over Ealng, and that is just the start.  And if Ealing finish in the top part of the table, could they still qualify for Europe?  at whose expense?  Could also just be the owner of Ealing trying anything he can to have a team in the top flight.  Any top flight.  

Questions, questions, questions.

There was similar speculation about London Scottish (who are at least affiliated to the SRU) joining the URC (or whatever it was called at the time) a few years back.

Nothing came of that, largely I suspect because the SRU were not keen on funding it. Ealing have deeper pockets, but they may not be deep enough!

I don't see this one flying unless he moves Ealing to Wales and merges them with an existing Welsh region, there's no way the RFU would allow it. Also if it's going to a club in England surely London Welsh would be the obvious choice?

London Welsh have no rich backer though, as far as I know. It's the money the WRU are after, coupled with Ealing's frustration at being blocked from entry to the top level of rugby which they obviously desire. Still, a crazy proposal!

Whatever the final number is for funding the regions, it will have implications for the 60 cap rule being maintained and the competitiveness of Welsh sides in the URC. The spiral for the regions is looking ever tighter.
The WRU will be desperate for Gatland to be successful, which with the old guard looking off the pace, isn't going to be easy in the short/medium term.

RFU won't allow the Ealing proposal, which is just posturing to apply pressure.

According to the western mail the player are saying to stop the strike they need the 60 cap ruling gone, they need the wru 80-20 contracts gone, and the have representation on the pro rugby board.

And western fail are reporting that a sponsors meal event the other night the players all left after an hour, and have now refused to be filled as part of the Netflix behind the scenes documentary of the 6Ns. Both of those will no doubt have an impact on the wru coffers. So it’ll be interesting to see if they go ahead with the strike too.

As I said, I’d abolish the 60 cap rule for a couple seasons, three at the most, then bring it back. It works, imo. The current situation isn’t caused/solved by a 60 cap ‘law’…..

Wales players are talking about going on strike fpr the game againct England. personally i hope they dont, but idf they do it will go down as a loss to Wales and a win to England surely but if they do strike should Wales be withdrawn from the rest of the 6narions?

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales players are talking about going on strike fpr the game againct England. personally i hope they dont, but idf they do it will go down as a loss to Wales and a win to England surely but if they do strike should Wales be withdrawn from the rest of the 6narions?

Truth be told, I don't think it will go that far.

It did make me laugh, but also boiled my pee a bit when Nige, etc came out and said the players aren't worth what they're being paid. Whilst there are some semi-pro looking players at the regions there aren't many. We pay our internationals what their worth. This coming from the WRU board mind, who put them on such a pedestal?

Wasn't it the WRU who set the pay bandings? So the top players in Wales are paid what the WRU decided! Couldn't make it up

It's difficult knowing what the rest of the pros are on but I'd wager that they are not paid more than those in other nations. Only a guess. But if the wages were so good here we'd be mopping up all of the overseas 'mercenary' talent, wouldn't we? And we wouldn't be losing anyone abroad. So how come they go to England or France or Ireland (in lower numbers there in fairness)? How was Dan Biggar able to double his money in England?

mikey_dragon wrote:It did make me laugh, but also boiled my pee a bit when Nige, etc came out and said the players aren't worth what they're being paid. Whilst there are some semi-pro looking players at the regions there aren't many. We pay our internationals what their worth. This coming from the WRU board mind, who put them on such a pedestal?

Is this Nigel 'hands like cold mammaries' Walker who could run in a straight line very fast but do literally nothing else?

He has rather a large pair to criticise a bunch of young men who are correctly worried about their financial and professional futures and who did, let's be frank, nothing wrong.

Anyone else heard that if the game doesn't go ahead there are plans for the Under 20s to play on the Saturday in Cardiff?

Oakdene wrote:Anyone else heard that if the game doesn't go ahead there are plans for the Under 20s to play on the Saturday in Cardiff?

Won't the U20s have played the night before against England U20s???

Edit: or do you mean the U20s vs England U20s will be the match at the PS on Sat? Expensive U20s match that!

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Wasn't it the WRU who set the pay bandings?  So the top players in Wales are paid what the WRU decided!  Couldn't make it up

I agree the players are not paid what they are worth - they are underpaid.  But for the WRU to criticise the players given they established the pay scale - well, that's some Orwellian future coming at us (I always wanted to use 'Orwellian' in a sentence, even if slightly out of context).  In other words, it takes some real brass cajones to knock the players, who simply want to know how they are gong to pay for the roof over their heads in a few months time.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Won't the U20s have played the night before against England U20s???

Edit: or do you mean the U20s vs England U20s will be the match at the PS on Sat?  Expensive U20s match that!

That. It might be all rubbish but it came from the same person who mentioned Ealing merging/taking over a region & that was a couple of days before the press ran with it.

If the players strike, theoretically isn’t it all WRPA players who should do it? After all this isn’t about welsh international players and their terms and conditions in team wales camp, it’s about the conditions laid out by wru regarding no contracts being allowed to be offered beyond the current contracts full stop. So that’s all players based at regions right? So if they had to field a team, they’d have to call up all non-welsh based players…….and that’d just add fuel to the fire

Yes should be all of them. This is a regional contract issue, not an international one.

Seen some really stupid posts about Wales players being in breach of employment contract if they strike for Wales. Really?! It’s an invitational side. No one has to play for Wales if they don’t want to. There are no employment contracts as far as I know. Bonuses and appearance fees maybe. But no employment contacts. Although rumour that 2 squad members might be on some sort of secret central contract - North is one rumoured to be, so he might be in hot water. But not the rest, surely?

On another note, I remember previous discussions on here about the Dragons becoming a development team and URC fans being (rightly) up in arms about it devaluing the league, etc. However, if these budget cut proposals got though I think we might see that x 4 for the Welsh regions. If you halve the salaries of the players in Wales, surely the top players will leave. And you’ll be left with players who are either only worth a low level contract of around £100k, or players who cannot get picked up by teams from other nations due to form or injury or age, and then you’re just left with much sh*tter versions of what we’ve got now. And what we’ve got now ain’t exactly great! It will be full of players flagged as having potential and promoted from U20 and Welsh prem, but not quite good enough to get a pro contract abroad. So a development squad really because as soon as they show good form and potential and their value goes up beyond the regional £100k or whatever it is, they’ll be snapped up by a team outside Wales. Really not great for the league to have 4 x low value squads from one country .

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Yes should be all of them. This is a regional contract issue, not an international one.

Seen some really stupid posts about Wales players being in breach of employment contract if they strike for Wales. Really?! It’s an invitational side. No one has to play for Wales if they don’t want to. There are no employment contracts as far as I know. Bonuses and appearance fees maybe. But no employment contacts. Although rumour that 2 squad members might be on some sort of secret central contract - North is one rumoured to be, so he might be in hot water. But not the rest, surely?

North and AWJ are both meant to be on WRU contracts like the one WRUburton signed years ago (which was all part of this mess we are in now)

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:On another note, I remember previous discussions on here about the Dragons becoming a development team and URC fans being (rightly) up in arms about it devaluing the league, etc. However, if these budget cut proposals got though I think we might see that x 4 for the Welsh regions. If you halve the salaries of the players in Wales, surely the top players will leave. And you’ll be left with players who are either only worth a low level contract of around £100k, or players who cannot get picked up by teams from other nations due to form or injury or age, and then you’re just left with much sh*tter versions of what we’ve got now. And what we’ve got now ain’t exactly great! It will be full of players flagged as having potential and promoted from U20 and Welsh prem, but not quite good enough to get a pro contract abroad. So a development squad really because as soon as they show good form and potential and their value goes up beyond the regional £100k or whatever it is, they’ll be snapped up by a team outside Wales. Really not great for the league to have 4 x low value squads from one country .

So we will have a national squad that are pretty much bench warming in other leagues and not getting regular game time.

And regions will be packed with players like Steph Hughes, Jack Dixon, Will Boyde, Angus O’Brien, Luke Morgan etc who are hard working players but never going to be regular internationals

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:On another note, I remember previous discussions on here about the Dragons becoming a development team and URC fans being (rightly) up in arms about it devaluing the league, etc. However, if these budget cut proposals got though I think we might see that x 4 for the Welsh regions. If you halve the salaries of the players in Wales, surely the top players will leave. And you’ll be left with players who are either only worth a low level contract of around £100k, or players who cannot get picked up by teams from other nations due to form or injury or age, and then you’re just left with much sh*tter versions of what we’ve got now. And what we’ve got now ain’t exactly great! It will be full of players flagged as having potential and promoted from U20 and Welsh prem, but not quite good enough to get a pro contract abroad. So a development squad really because as soon as they show good form and potential and their value goes up beyond the regional £100k or whatever it is, they’ll be snapped up by a team outside Wales. Really not great for the league to have 4 x low value squads from one country .

So we will have a national squad that are pretty much bench warming in other leagues and not getting regular game time.

And regions will be packed with players like Steph Hughes, Jack Dixon, Will Boyde, Angus O’Brien, Luke Morgan etc who are hard working players but never going to be regular internationals

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:On another note, I remember previous discussions on here about the Dragons becoming a development team and URC fans being (rightly) up in arms about it devaluing the league, etc. However, if these budget cut proposals got though I think we might see that x 4 for the Welsh regions. If you halve the salaries of the players in Wales, surely the top players will leave. And you’ll be left with players who are either only worth a low level contract of around £100k, or players who cannot get picked up by teams from other nations due to form or injury or age, and then you’re just left with much sh*tter versions of what we’ve got now. And what we’ve got now ain’t exactly great! It will be full of players flagged as having potential and promoted from U20 and Welsh prem, but not quite good enough to get a pro contract abroad. So a development squad really because as soon as they show good form and potential and their value goes up beyond the regional £100k or whatever it is, they’ll be snapped up by a team outside Wales. Really not great for the league to have 4 x low value squads from one country .

So we will have a national squad that are pretty much bench warming in other leagues and not getting regular game time.

And regions will be packed with players like Steph Hughes, Jack Dixon, Will Boyde, Angus O’Brien, Luke Morgan etc who are hard working players but never going to be regular internationals

Yes that’s about the size of it. Unless…..

3 options for me:

Reduce the number of pro teams = increased squad budget available to remaining 2 or 3.
Increase the WRU contribution. If they want all of this extra access to players outside the international window, then compensate the regions appropriately. See player release this 6N as an example.
Or, don’t release players outside the window and therefore the regions might be able to trip squad size if the internationals are available more.

A combo of any of the above might work I guess.

I don’t think compass point teams will work any better than the ‘regional’ teams they’ve got now. In fact, they think they will be worse. Same for East and West teams. It might help reduce number of pros to pay for, but it won’t generate support.

The east/west thing will never work. Llanelli isn’t really west, it’s pretty much centre south. Abd north would only work if Ryan Reynolds wants to buy a rugby team to go along side Wrexham football team

ScarletSpiderman wrote:And regions will be packed with players like Steph Hughes, Jack Dixon, Will Boyde, Angus O’Brien, Luke Morgan etc who are hard working players but never going to be regular internationals

Or in this case, semi-pro level players who should not be anywhere near a pro team.

mikey_dragon wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:And regions will be packed with players like Steph Hughes, Jack Dixon, Will Boyde, Angus O’Brien, Luke Morgan etc who are hard working players but never going to be regular internationals

Or in this case, semi-pro level players who should not be anywhere near a pro team.

Was trying to think of an ospreys player that’s regular for them but neither an international or likely to be wanted elsewhere

mikey_dragon wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:And regions will be packed with players like Steph Hughes, Jack Dixon, Will Boyde, Angus O’Brien, Luke Morgan etc who are hard working players but never going to be regular internationals

Or in this case, semi-pro level players who should not be anywhere near a pro team.

Was trying to think of an ospreys player that’s regular for them but neither an international or likely to be wanted elsewhere

Is there a fix for the problems facing Welsh rugby? It seems like they are trying to do too much with too little.

Granted, it seems to have become shambolic at the top. But even if you wiped the slate clean and had the most competent board possible in control would they be able to tackle the fundamental issues causing the problems around professional rugby in Wales?

Despite rugby being considered the national game in Wales. The regions are poorly supported and the main football teams draw bigger crowds (Cardiff and Swansea football teams draw over double the crowds on average in the bigger metro areas).

The aim is clearly to have 4 competitive regions retaining the top welsh talent while feeding into a successful Welsh national team. It seems like an impossible circle to square given the realities underpinning the pro game in Wales. Cutting a region seems inevitable but still doesnt seem to offer any real solution at the same time.

A key problem is with the very notion of ‘cutting a region’. What does it mean? Does the WRU have the power to close a private business? No. So that only leaves the Dragons which it owns (not sure entirely what the ownership model is there though or whether they could just shut it). Could shut them down I guess? So ‘cutting’ is perhaps more to do with not putting one of them forward into the various competitions. Send 3 instead of 4. But then the WRU probably also has contractual arrangements with URC and ERC to provide x number of entrants to those competitions for the next x years. So I’m not sure they can just pull one out. They’ll probably face fines.

The WRU also saddled the regions with a £20m loan between them for the covid downturn years, so how does a closed team pay that back? Who picks up that debt? Bit harsh if it doesn’t put a team forward, and that team has no way of generating income, to then have to then try to pay that debt back.

So shrinking the number of teams is the obvious thing but the practicalities might make it difficult. Plus, it won’t all be rosey. Lose a team and you lose that team’s competition and TV income. Anyone know how much each team earns in comp and tv money? I reckon it could be around the same as the Dragons budget! So would there really be any saving cutting them? We’d just be in the same financial situation with 3 teams! Sure, all of those players condensed into 3 teams should make them more competitive…..or would it? How many top star player have the Dragons got that would be good additions to other regional squads? 8? 10? So just 3 players extra each into the remaining 3. Hardly going to make those teams Euro champs or URC winners!

And I think this is where we’re struggling to find any way of doing this. The WRU has no control because they didn’t want to take the risk of owning and running the teams years back. So we’ve got private businesses, who themselves have little control over their income (tv and comp, which is all negotiated by the union I think), now being threatened with closure/merger/non-entry to competitions and who have business liabilities, debts, staff and other responsibilities (including the players). It all seems like an impossible conundrum!

There seems to be something of reckoning coming in Rugby in general. There doesnt seem to a healthy viability for professional rugby at club level (maybe with the exception of France).

Its all top down structure dependent on either National Unions subsidising the club sides or else dependent on wealthy owners injecting their own money. Attendances, TV money, sponsorship and merchandising etc doesnt seem to be enough for clubs to be financially self sufficient.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:A key problem is with the very notion of ‘cutting a region’. What does it mean? Does the WRU have the power to close a private business? No. So that only leaves the Dragons which it owns (not sure entirely what the ownership model is there though or whether they could just shut it). Could shut them down I guess? So ‘cutting’ is perhaps more to do with not putting one of them forward into the various competitions. Send 3 instead of 4. But then the WRU probably also has contractual arrangements with URC and ERC to provide x number of entrants to those competitions for the next x years. So I’m not sure they can just pull one out. They’ll probably face fines.

The WRU also saddled the regions with a £20m loan between them for the covid downturn years, so how does a closed team pay that back? Who picks up that debt? Bit harsh if it doesn’t put a team forward, and that team has no way of generating income, to then have to then try to pay that debt back.

So shrinking the number of teams is the obvious thing but the practicalities might make it difficult. Plus, it won’t all be rosey. Lose a team and you lose that team’s competition and TV income. Anyone know how much each team earns in comp and tv money? I reckon it could be around the same as the Dragons budget! So would there really be any saving cutting them? We’d just be in the same financial situation with 3 teams! Sure, all of those players condensed into 3 teams should make them more competitive…..or would it? How many top star player have the Dragons got that would be good additions to other regional squads? 8? 10? So just 3 players extra each into the remaining 3. Hardly going to make those teams Euro champs or URC winners!

And I think this is where we’re struggling to find any way of doing this. The WRU has no control because they didn’t want to take the risk of owning and running the teams years back. So we’ve got private businesses, who themselves have little control over their income (tv and comp, which is all negotiated by the union I think), now being threatened with closure/merger/non-entry to competitions and who have business liabilities, debts, staff and other responsibilities (including the players). It all seems like an impossible conundrum!

I know our Cardiff friends like to pledge unity to the cause, but some like to say what do dragons produce internationals wise. Well for me, international selection is subjective anyway. People turn their noses up at Dragons players. It’s even evident now. People ignore Bradley Roberts is the form 2 in the country. “He’s too small” allegedly. Leon Brown has come on in the six nations and locked a scrum five down on our own line. Dee is classed as too small. Apparently we don’t produce players, but how aren't these players we’ve produced or played ourselves ever worth a look?

Dee, Brown, Carter, Basham, Griffiths, Dixon, Hewitt, Dyer

Then before plenty like Charteris, Faletau, Lydiate etc.

Stopping naming past players now and know I’ve missed a few, but without Dragons would we have had a class 2 like Lloyd Burns? Would we have unearthed a player like Andrew Coombs either? So I think we should have four teams, but on equal funding. And not now people try to say it’s apparently equal now. Because covid says it wasn’t, or without the precious stadium repayments and Roger the dodger’s “leadership”.

Take a look at where pro teams train. Dragons firsts train on a council facility. Academy in a college. Leinster train in world class facilities. Even during covid, Cardiff had to train at a council place. Leinster opened a new couple of million sub academy place. Levels here. Have to back your boys accordingly
WRU

It's also good to have somewhere exiles can join... Thinking of Holmes, Moriarty, Rowlands, Nott, Lonsdale, etc. Some of those have been overlooked again too.

Have you noticed Scarlets have less players called up now that Wayne Wonder is gone?