WALES INTERNATIONAL: GAMES, SQUADS, TOURNAMENTS, CHAT - SUMMER TOUR & SEASON 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Here it is:

Springbok team to face Wales in Cape Town:
15 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 17 caps, 12 pts (1t, 2c, 1p)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulon) – 19 caps 18pts, 50pts (10t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 27 caps, 25 pts (5t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 59 caps, 35 pts (7t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 26 caps, 100 pts (20t)
10 – Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers) – 61 caps, 613 pts (6t, 83c, 131p, 4d)
9 – Jaden Hendrikse (Cell C Sharks) – 3 caps, 5 pts (1t)
8 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 12 caps, 0 pts
7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (Toyota Verblitz) – 59 caps, 25 pts (5t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 64 caps, 30 pts (6t)
5 – Lood de Jager (Wild Knights) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Cell C Sharks) – 99 caps, 15 pts (3t)
3 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 47 caps, 5pts (1t)
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Cell C Sharks) – 49 caps, 50 pts (10t)
1 – Trevor Nyakane (Racing 92) – 55 caps, 5pts (1t)

Replacements:
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 48 caps, 55 pts (11t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 60 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Wasps) 33 caps, 0 pts
19 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 52 caps, 5pts (1t)
20 – Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs) – 20 caps, 5 pts (1t)
21 – Elrigh Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 1 cap, 0pts
22 – Faf de Klerk (Canon Eagles) – 37caps, 25pts (5t)
23 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 73 caps, 60 pts (12t)

Rumour of an announcement, and it being in regards to the 60 cap rule. Seen some say it’s reduced to 20, and another say it’s gone completely.

Hopefully the WRU are doing a lot more than that though.

I think the worst thing that can happen from a club point of view is the rumoured scrapping of the 60 cap rule AND budgets being dropped to the rumoured £4.5m. Well, not worst in terms of keeping 4 sides as it might help avoid one being scrapped. But worst for the game in Wales as the best players will need to leave for decent wages. So we’ll have no stars here and 4 teams at the bottom of the league getting whooped all the time. 4 teams on sub-Zebre budgets. Grim.

I’ve nothing against the scrapping or changing of the 60 cap rule though, but it did help to keep players here.

Another rumour currently is a one year extension to the current budgets to allow time to get a new chief exec in place and to give a 1 year contact extension to those up for renewal and in a precarious position, and also so that nothing is rushed through. Jamie Roberts has suggested a 2 year extension to allow everything else to be in place first, plus I think TV deals and completion deals end in 2 years so it might be good timing to align it all and have more certainty about how much the clubs will get going forward. I reckon a one or two year delay to all of this might be enough to avoid a strike. But of course it’s just kicking the pain down the road a bit and this will all just drag on.

mikey_dragon wrote:Rumour of an announcement, and it being in regards to the 60 cap rule. Seen some say it’s reduced to 20, and another say it’s gone completely.

Hopefully the WRU are doing a lot more than that though.

They could do with it being announced this morning before the 'team announcement'.

I don't think we can offer anyone an extension unless the WRU and Regions agree the teams' budget for next season. Otherwise, the idea makes sense. But as you know, some of the regions could do with signing some overseas players.

Wales have cancelled their team announcement, which should have happened at 12pm today due to the possibility of strike action. Gatland will face the press at 12:30.

This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

To be fair the success of the international team during Gats last reign didn’t just paper over the cracks, it also caused a number of them. The whole dual contracts farce, and the likes of Rory Thornton, Tyler Morgan, and the ginger number 8 at the Ospreys going on NDCs at Gatlands request, but never kicking on as players. That caused rifts as opposed to papering over.

It is kind of apt he is here again now, as a number of issues do come from him and roger the dodger.

Oakdene wrote:Wales have cancelled their team announcement, which should have happened at 12pm today due to the possibility of strike action. Gatland will face the press at 12:30.

Holy cr@p. Is this really happening?

George Carlin wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Wales have cancelled their team announcement, which should have happened at 12pm today due to the possibility of strike action. Gatland will face the press at 12:30.

Holy cr@p. Is this really happening?

It's looking more & more likely for me. I think, by having an early team announcement scheduled the WRU thought this might all be put to be with by now.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

To be fair the success of the international team during Gats last reign didn’t just paper over the cracks, it also caused a number of them.  The whole dual contracts farce, and the likes of Rory Thornton, Tyler Morgan, and the ginger number 8 at the Ospreys going on NDCs at Gatlands request, but never kicking on as players.  That caused rifts as opposed to papering over.

It is kind of apt he is here again now, as a number of issues do come from him and roger the dodger.

The fact that the 60 cap rule dimension has been added to what essentially is a pay dispute, suggests the test players have already written off playing in the URC, in which case what is the point of the regional sides if they are not going to be competitive in URC/Europe ? The fact that the WRU are accepting this element into the pay dispute shows how desperate things have got, very sad.

With rumour of the SRU approaching Leon McDonald to be their next coach, I wonder if the WRU are looking for someone to be Gatland’s successor? Don’t tell me they forgot…

mikey_dragon wrote:With rumour of the SRU approaching Leon McDonald to be their next coach, I wonder if the WRU are looking for someone to be Gatland’s successor? Don’t tell me they forgot…

Think they did the usual WRu thing, and put all eggs in one basket. Gats will fix it all, so we just hang on to him……not working out as planned

With Farland delaying naming id squad for the England game is there still doubt it will go a head?

Any news yet ?

Is the game going ahead?

Yes, the game is on (per the Telegraph). Hot off the presses. Details of any agreements not public yet.

Yes game on. The player demands for the game to go ahead were:

A place on the board/round the table for players.
Removal of 60 cap rule (now 25).
Removal of the proposed 80/20 contract where players are paid 80% of their salary with 20% performance related (while being in sh*tter, less well funded teams. C’mon!).

So it sounds like the above has been met.

The contracts are either 80/20 which could be later if all bonuses are hit, or fixed higher than the 80, but lower than the full 100

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The contracts are either 80/20 which could be later if all bonuses are hit, or fixed higher than the 80, but lower than the full 100

Sorry, yes just seen this as part of the agreement. Not sure what you mean by fixed higher than 80% but lower than the full 100%? Do you mean compared to their current salaries?

How much training will the team have done this week?
Not sure about Monday but only a morning session on Tuesday, no training at all today, so only tomorrow and friday.

Will they be fully prepared for an intense test match?

It has surely been less than a perfect way to prepare for a test match.

You never know though, it may have brought them together and might inspire them a little.

I think Wales have got a reasonably free pass this weekend. I don't think there is a great deal of expectation upon them.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The contracts are either 80/20 which could be later if all bonuses are hit, or fixed higher than the 80, but lower than the full 100

Sorry, yes just seen this as part of the agreement. Not sure what you mean by fixed higher than 80% but lower than the full 100%? Do you mean compared to their current salaries?

Simple numbers fixed would be 90k
Variable is 80k with a max of 20k in bonuses, so if you hit all the targets it would be a total of 100k

I am happy the game is going a head I just hope it is a good a game we hope it will be.

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

The details are not great and it sounds like the players have had to settle for the bare minimum.

Great news that the game is on Saturday. The Rugby Mad Welsh Public can enjoy the short term and then in a few years wonder why things aren’t improving, why Welsh players aren’t playing in Wales and hardly available for training (with no 4th AI) and why young players coming through are playing in teams that are getting walloped every week.

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

I stupidly decided to have a look at Welsh rugby Twitter last night.
Might I start by saying I know every nation has its fair share of twitter lunatics that don't represent the majority of its fanbase, but my word there were some very "interesting" opinions.

I really do hope the WRU and regions/clubs sort it out properly this time and not just push the next "Welsh rugby crisis" a few seasons down the road

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

Fallout from Covid unfortunately. Can't tell clubs to operate as businesses and then expect those businesses who have become reliant on match day revenue to thrive when that match day revenue is taken away for such a lengthy period.

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

That's pretty weak Carpet - you can do better than that. Those two PRL teams for differing reason became the weakest financially and were relegated under the rules. Can you do that in the URC ? Probably also worth saying those clubs were not the weakest on the pitch- that currently is probably my team, unfortunately.....

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

Any examples of stuff in particular that you disagreed with? A see a lot of people calling for ‘compass point’ teams (I.e. north, south, east, west. Or just North, east and west), but that would be even worse than now, IMO. It ignores population centres, geography, ownership, funding, etc. People often seem to have a socialist view of rugby and pro sport that it has to include absolutely everyone in the country, even access for all, even representation, but in reality I just don’t think that is achievable. It’s a utopian view held by many on Twitter that simply won’t happen, and unfortunately because it won’t happen you get all of these outraged people feeling ‘disenfranchised’ and calling for an end to the very people who have spent millions trying to make what we have work.

And people that will seemingly have to spend millions to make it work again.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

Fallout from Covid unfortunately. Can't tell clubs to operate as businesses and then expect those businesses who have become reliant on match day revenue to thrive when that match day revenue is taken away for such a lengthy period.

Whatever about the other clubs, but you can't seriously believe Covid had anything to do with Wasps' demise. Their financial situation has been well known and reported on for years. Covid only brought on the inevitable for them

With Biggar on the bench to start with and Half penny startinh at full back. iItake it Halfpenny will take any kick s at hoal.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

Fallout from Covid unfortunately. Can't tell clubs to operate as businesses and then expect those businesses who have become reliant on match day revenue to thrive when that match day revenue is taken away for such a lengthy period.

Whatever about the other clubs, but you can't seriously believe Covid had anything to do with Wasps' demise. Their financial situation has been well known and reported on for years. Covid only brought on the inevitable for them

That's just not right. Wasps took on significant debt to buy into the Ricoh development which included a six year bond. That is what a business does as they were losing money renting from Wycombe Wanderers FC.
Their revenue was perfectly adequate to service the debt with the ultimate aim of owning the significant assets outright. Covid stopped a large proportion of their revenue for two plus years and so could not service the debt and were made bankrupt.
Your IRFU/ URC bias gets in the way of objective reasoning there is no evidence to back up your simplistic statement, sorry.

majesticimperialman wrote:With Biggar on the bench to start with and Half penny startinh at full back. iItake it Halfpenny will take any kick s at hoal.

Biggar deserves a kick in the hoal

Read a tweet earlier from ex Cardiff and Dragons player Jason Tovey. It said he’d heard that 3 current wales regional/international players with 300 caps between them have been offered contacts of £30k per annum going forward. Although I can’t find the tweet now so maybe it was deleted. Can’t be true, can it?!

Recwatcher16 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

Fallout from Covid unfortunately. Can't tell clubs to operate as businesses and then expect those businesses who have become reliant on match day revenue to thrive when that match day revenue is taken away for such a lengthy period.

Whatever about the other clubs, but you can't seriously believe Covid had anything to do with Wasps' demise. Their financial situation has been well known and reported on for years. Covid only brought on the inevitable for them

That's just not right. Wasps took on significant debt to buy into the Ricoh development which included a six year bond. That is what a business does as they were losing money renting from Wycombe Wanderers FC.
Their revenue was perfectly adequate to service the debt with the ultimate aim of owning the significant assets outright. Covid stopped a large proportion of their revenue for two plus years and so could not service the debt and were made bankrupt.
Your IRFU/ URC bias gets in the way of objective reasoning  there is no evidence to back up your simplistic statement, sorry.

Article from 2019: "Rugby club Wasps is being investigated by the UK’s financial regulator over whether it misled the market about the state of its finances and how quickly it rectified the matter." "Premiership club admitted to creditors in late 2017 that it had overstated its earnings, breaching covenants on a £35m retail bond, and its auditors, PwC, stepped down after finding “falsified” information."

"A £1.1m capital injection by Derek Richardson, the Irish businessman who owns Wasps and is its chairman, was wrongly stated as income. According to a market announcement made in December 2017, this cut the club’s earnings to £2.4m rather than the £3.5m it first stated."
https://www.ft.com/content/662a563e-5c70-11e9-939a-341f5ada9d40

Article from early 2020: "The group that controls Wasps Rugby and the Ricoh Arena made a near £5m loss in the second half of 2019." "he consolidated senior debt (as of December 31) stood at £35.7m, compared to £37m in 2018. Owner Derek Richardson is also owed £18.3m from a loan provided to the club."
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-finances-ricoh-arena-17909775

Here is a thread on the Wasps fans forum from march 2020, where the OP stats "we are toast on these year on year massive losses". An interesting read as it looks as though as early as then, wasps fans knew what was coming and wanted to get the club back to London.
https://m.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s96.htm?98,16753370

Maybe I'm just biased though.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Read a tweet earlier from ex Cardiff and Dragons player Jason Tovey. It said he’d heard that 3 current wales regional/international players with 300 caps between them have been offered contacts of £30k per annum going forward. Although I can’t find the tweet now so maybe it was deleted. Can’t be true, can it?!

Depends who they were. AWJ one of them maybe, if he’s not hanging up his boots yet then it seems wise to not have him on a big contract. He could get more elsewhere. He was rumoured to be going earlier this season, but it was WOL running away with it so not sure if that ever had an ounce of accuracy.

mikey_dragon wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Read a tweet earlier from ex Cardiff and Dragons player Jason Tovey. It said he’d heard that 3 current wales regional/international players with 300 caps between them have been offered contacts of £30k per annum going forward. Although I can’t find the tweet now so maybe it was deleted. Can’t be true, can it?!

Depends who they were. AWJ one of them maybe, if he’s not hanging up his boots yet then it seems wise to not have him on a big contract. He could get more elsewhere. He was rumoured to be going earlier this season, but it was WOL running away with it so not sure if that ever had an ounce of accuracy.

I get that, but there’s taking someone off a big contact in his later years and there’s offering an insulting sum to someone who is still a top level pro. Baring in mind semi-pro premiership offers something like £15k for part time rugby, it’s on par with that for full time. £30k is not even enough for a first contract for someone straight out of the academy, IMO. How can we offer top pros £30k and expect them to compete against players of similar standard who earn 20 times their salary?!

I mean if it’s 300 caps between them then it stands to reason that AWJ is one, with his 156 caps. I didn’t know semi-pro players could earn 15K per year, that’s stupid.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

Fallout from Covid unfortunately. Can't tell clubs to operate as businesses and then expect those businesses who have become reliant on match day revenue to thrive when that match day revenue is taken away for such a lengthy period.

Whatever about the other clubs, but you can't seriously believe Covid had anything to do with Wasps' demise. Their financial situation has been well known and reported on for years. Covid only brought on the inevitable for them

You're quite right the finances at Wasps were very ropey but Covid probably was the final nail in the coffin. Their only way out of the mess they were in was getting Cov City back in as paying tenants, getting rent from the casino etc on site and then packing the place out over the summer period with concerts and the commonwealth games bits like that. Two years of generating no money from the place killed off the failing business.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:This has been a long time coming and most recognise Gatlands previous test record has papered the cracks.
A top down model is not a strategically sound financial model. Many have said on here over the years that there is no alternative to an elite regional model for competing in Europe but here we are, now with an existential risk to the professional game in Wales and the best players leaving regardless of the 60 cap rule or in anticipation of the restriction being lifted  anyway.
The URC and the various incarnations have gutted club rugby culture in Wales and I hate to see it.

The URC and it’s various iterations did nothing to rugby in Wales. The WRU rejected an offer from the prem to have some Welsh teams compete in it. Then the WRU decided to have some clubs go pro, then when that failed it set up the regions and chose to make them private not own them. The URC etc didn’t dictate to the WRU how pro rugby should be run in Wales. Ever. It did give Wales a pro competition to compete in and hone its players skills that helped develop a golden generation of Welsh rugby players.

Your interpretation of my quote is disingenuous- yes the WRU chose to enter this league with regions but inclusion in this league has led to the decline of the rugby clubs. The uneven financial playing field within the URC has led to a vicious financial circle over an extended period with not enough fans paying to watch these regional sides getting 'walloped'. A league is only as strong as it's weakest link and a cross border competition does not inspire the welsh public. Wales could become like Scotland where a majority of Test players were either not born or learnt their rugby in Scotland. For Wales that would be tragic.

Ultimately in the short/medium term Wales will now go down to three or perhaps two regional sides, full of Test players under 25 caps and that will become the rugby culture in Wales.

Hmmm a league only as strong as it's weakest link, so the PRL with it's two bankrupt teams must be pretty bad then.

Fallout from Covid unfortunately. Can't tell clubs to operate as businesses and then expect those businesses who have become reliant on match day revenue to thrive when that match day revenue is taken away for such a lengthy period.

Whatever about the other clubs, but you can't seriously believe Covid had anything to do with Wasps' demise. Their financial situation has been well known and reported on for years. Covid only brought on the inevitable for them

You're quite right the finances at Wasps were very ropey but Covid probably was the final nail in the coffin. Their only way out of the mess they were in was getting Cov City back in as paying tenants, getting rent from the casino etc on site and then packing the place out over the summer period with concerts and the commonwealth games bits like that. Two years of generating no money from the place killed off the failing business.

Fair comment, hopefully Wasps will one day find a permanent home that works for the club and supporters. Their initial crowds at Coventry shows how strong the brand is and the potential they have.

mikey_dragon wrote:I mean if it’s 300 caps between them then it stands to reason that AWJ is one, with his 156 caps. I didn’t know semi-pro players could earn 15K per year, that’s stupid.

And the rest. Merthyr pay 30k for Knoyle et al. They don’t play for pints and curry and chips at the Wern.

mikey_dragon wrote:I mean if it’s 300 caps between them then it stands to reason that AWJ is one, with his 156 caps. I didn’t know semi-pro players could earn 15K per year, that’s stupid.

Don’t agree that it’s stupid. £15k is below minimum wage. You can earn more on the trolleys at Tesco. It’s semi pro. Either make it completely amateur and pay then £0 or semi pro and pay them.

So FT on the trolleys at Tesco you earn more than 15K? Unsurprising. Semi-pro just wasn't paid well back a few years ago, enough for petrol and your weekend. Maybe there's too much money there, semi-pro doesn't serve much purpose.

Smith, Lake, Morris, Rowlands, Ball and Hill... maybe Navidi, coming into the squad should make a difference. A few olders guys can be moved on as they're not offering enough compared to the younger players with great potential. I'd also persist with Hawkins and Grady.

I’ve heard it all now. The latest twist in the saga:

The WRU is cutting budgets for the regions from next year so budgets for squads are going to be really stretched (understatement!). Teams are looking to drop from around 45 players down to around 30-35.
However, the WRU is no longer going to fund the 80% of wages for those top 38 players that it currently does, so not honouring the remainder of those deals. The regions therefore have to find the extra 80% of those salaries from their reduced budgets for the rest of the contract.
If someone was on £300k then the region now has to find an extra £240k next season for that players.
In order to fund a squad the regions are looking to offload some players to reduce its wage bill.
And here’s the kicker - the WRU has announced that it can block the offload of any of the top 38 players should it wish, thus saddling the teams with extra burden and denying the player the chance to move to a lucrative contact elsewhere!

Is it me or is this utterly ridiculous?! The WRU are basically saying the regions have been spending too much, even though those top 38 players were wage bands the WRU set, they’re not going to honour the 80% contracts they initiated, and they can block attempts by the region to trim squads and stay within their new reduced budgets!

They have history for this too. I remember the WRU stopped the Dragons selling Faletau to Bath for a £400k transfer fee all those years ago, and he ended up leaving that summer for free. I’ve read that the WRU has also stopped the regions signing sponsorships deals with the likes of Vodafone in the past. I really don’t know what the point of the union is if they make life so difficult for it’s pro clubs.

What next?!

Worst Run Union. I feel all the players in Wales need to strike, not just the internationals. The reduced squads and funding just isn’t going to work. We’re bad now, it’ll get worse. We could potentially have all our teams (3 or 4) on par with the old Connacht.

mikey_dragon wrote:Worst Run Union. I feel all the players in Wales need to strike, not just the internationals. The reduced squads and funding just isn’t going to work. We’re bad now, it’ll get worse. We could potentially have all our teams (3 or 4) on par with the old Connacht.

As I have said previously, the WRU owns the Principality Stadium and are sitting on all that equity, but won't pay the players who essentially built the place?

After reading rhat a lot of players could br lraving Wales sue to the regions having ti make oay cts, It does make you think is the WRU almost Bankrupt?