Political round up.............

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:Sunak speaks for a grand total of 84 seconds and then scuttles away to get his orders.

Crackpot.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

superflyweight wrote:You vote for a party that includes a pig f*cker...

I think it's a crackling appointment.

I disagree. I think it's ham-fisted.

Look, he was a bit streaky, but be rind to him and give him a chance.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

superflyweight wrote:You vote for a party that includes a pig f*cker...

I think it's a crackling appointment.

I disagree. I think it's ham-fisted.

Look, he was a bit streaky, but be rind to him and give him a chance.

It's a serious appointment, we need to pork all this pig nonsense and move on.

superflyweight wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

superflyweight wrote:You vote for a party that includes a pig f*cker...

I think it's a crackling appointment.

I disagree. I think it's ham-fisted.

Look, he was a bit streaky, but be rind to him and give him a chance.

It's a serious appointment, we need to pork all this pig nonsense and move on.  

You're the one hogging the thread with all these jokes.

Funny thing about politics is the crapper you are the better you get on..

Cameron........Cost Junior-America billions over the HS2 catastrophe...The Brexit catastrophe and hurt many people with failed-Austerity.....

I imagine Henry the 8th would have had his head off and I'd have paid good money for a front seat......

But hey...

Cameron?

Hunt, Sunak and Cameron in three of the four great offices of state, and some people will still argue that the Tories are UKIP. Hilarious stuff.

There is something very unpleasant about Sunak reaching out to someone unelected and just appointing them to a senior cabinet role through ennobling them. The House of Lords needs to go, obviously, but this is a very flagrant abuse of the system - though not a surprising one from a PM who was never elected to leader of his party. Wonder if it'll create a precedent and we'll see future governments do this sort of thing?

Hopefully the final straw for those tribal Tories - who continually prop the Tory Party up in the belief that any minute now the Tories are going to be low-tax, small government and conservative - and they either vote for someone else in 2024, or not at all, leading to the destruction of the Tory Party. This nearly happened in 2019 before Johnson showed up and saved the Tories. Or the backbenchers could do something.

'Daddy's home' according to that creep Iain Dale.

Duty281 wrote:In her article, Mrs Braverman, who declined to talk to reporters earlier as she left her home, claimed aggressive right-wing protesters were "rightly met with a stern response", while "pro-Palestinian mobs" were "largely ignored". She went on to say police were applying "double standards" and "played favourites when it comes to demonstrators".

And proven completely right today, although it is just words.

An absolutely terrifying time to be a Jew in Britain and a shameful reminder of how low the country has sunk in the 21st century under the guise of the Tories and Labour.

It's got to a point where poppy sellers need to be protected by the police, and anti-Semites from the Islamic death cult and/or the hard left are free to march through the streets of London calling for the eradication of Israel and celebrating the massacre of Jews. Open racism and calls of violence unchallenged by authority.

Enoch's (misquoted) rivers of blood are well on their way.

Nonsense, I'm afraid, but don't let that stop you.

While not wishing to belittle those that are in worried re. the marches in support of the Palestinians, perhaps they should have a word with Netanyahu and all those who blindly continue to support their assault on the Palestinians?

The vast majority of arrests in London on Saturday were right wing racists etc. ~300,000 marchers and exactly how many arrests as a %?

It's really interesting to look at the way this is all being reported, especially by the right wing media, which is most of it.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:I don't believe in being 'Proud to be British', or any nationality, but it is encouraging to see so many people marching for peace and a ceasefire to the on-going brutality between Hamas and Israel and an end to the suffering of innocents on both sides (mainly Palestinians in the aftermath of 7th October).

As one woman on the march said -
"I am a Christian and God tells us to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. So I just felt absolutely compelled to come today." Hopefully Braverman and Duty don't find that sort of attitude too scary that they are afraid to leave their homes.

There are, and always have been, crazy minorities on both sides who need to be dealt with but in this case it is far easier to round up a small, isolated group of far right trouble-makers, in order to prevent trouble, than to weed out what is probably an equal number scattered amongst 300,000 other people.

I'm sure Duty will join me in appreciating the peaceful manner in which those vast numbers have marched, unless he's too busy planning his flight to a safer country, based on his own prejudices.

How many of these people marched for peace and a ceasefire after Hamas massacred innocents?

I don't accept your argument of 'mainly peaceful'. If you march with anti-semites and racists, you are also an anti-semite and a racist. No equivocation.

You know perfectly well, also, that I'm not referring to what one woman said on the march, either. I'm referring to calls for genocide and the destruction of the state of Israel, celebrating the massacre of Jews, wearing Hamas style clothing, holding up swastikas and the like. You might be glib about it, but it's terrifying for Jews in our country to see this as anti-semitism continues unabated.

Certainly not an equal number amongst the 300,000 either, unless you are ignorant about the hate for Jews from the hard left and some of the Islamic population.

What prejudices, also?

Oh, for Heaven's sake. Stop conflating two separate issues - why on Earth would those marching, specifically re. a cease fire in Gaza and for long-standing Palestinian enfranchisement following >75 years of abuse, dispossession and murder, go on a march for the innocents massacred by Hamas? You're also assuming that all those marching for Palestine have no feelings for the Israelis murdered by Hamas, which is just lazy.

Stop painting hundreds of thousands as anti-Semites etc, just because there may, arguably, have been some on the same damned march(es). It's pathetic. What calls for genocide (outside those of Hamas etc) ? The only genocide going on in that region just now is the continuing murder and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population. Unabated anti-Semitism? I'll try to respond when I've stopped laughing...

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:If you march with anti-semites and racists, you are also an anti-semite and a racist. No equivocation.

So that Christian woman is an anti-semite and a racist?

The answer to your question is self-evident. Why do you choose to ask it?

Because you're talking bollox.

A very erudite reply.

It's nevertheless way more accurate than saying everyone on that march today is an anti-semite and a racist. If you really believe that it's no wonder you live in fear.

I don't live in fear. Fortunately, in this instance, I am not a Jew. They must be terrified, as thousands upon thousands spread anti-Jewish hatred across the capital, while law enforcement does nothing.

Once again, if you march with racists, you are a racist by association. It is that simple.

Rubbish. Just rubbish.

Duty281 wrote:...That swastika over the Star of David, that's not very pleasant is it?...

That's a really interesting one. What is it that you think it meant? I'm interested...

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:In her article, Mrs Braverman, who declined to talk to reporters earlier as she left her home, claimed aggressive right-wing protesters were "rightly met with a stern response", while "pro-Palestinian mobs" were "largely ignored". She went on to say police were applying "double standards" and "played favourites when it comes to demonstrators".

And proven completely right today, although it is just words.

An absolutely terrifying time to be a Jew in Britain and a shameful reminder of how low the country has sunk in the 21st century under the guise of the Tories and Labour.

It's got to a point where poppy sellers need to be protected by the police, and anti-Semites from the Islamic death cult and/or the hard left are free to march through the streets of London calling for the eradication of Israel and celebrating the massacre of Jews. Open racism and calls of violence unchallenged by authority.

Enoch's (misquoted) rivers of blood are well on their way.

Nonsense, I'm afraid, but don't let that stop you.

While not wishing to belittle those that are in worried re. the marches in support of the Palestinians, perhaps they should have a word with Netanyahu and all those who blindly continue to support their assault on the Palestinians?

The vast majority of arrests in London on Saturday were right wing racists etc. ~300,000 marchers and exactly how many arrests as a %?

It's really interesting to look at the way this is all being reported, especially by the right wing media, which is most of it.

What, specifically, is nonsense? You don't think it's a terrifying time to be a Jew in Britain? You can't be disagreeing with the two tier policing, because that was evidentially borne out on Saturday, and equally the point about poppy sellers/racism/calls of violence were also plainly true.

Jews in Britain are not responsible for the Israeli government's actions, funnily enough, so I don't think the Jewish population experiencing a rise in anti-semitism is an acceptable cost, do you? Any more than a rise in abuse/attacks towards Muslims in Britain because of Hamas.

Of course the vast majority of arrests in London on Saturday were of those people. Because of the two tier policing system.

Most media, including the state broadcaster, are not right wing.

Duty281 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:In her article, Mrs Braverman, who declined to talk to reporters earlier as she left her home, claimed aggressive right-wing protesters were "rightly met with a stern response", while "pro-Palestinian mobs" were "largely ignored". She went on to say police were applying "double standards" and "played favourites when it comes to demonstrators".

And proven completely right today, although it is just words.

An absolutely terrifying time to be a Jew in Britain and a shameful reminder of how low the country has sunk in the 21st century under the guise of the Tories and Labour.

It's got to a point where poppy sellers need to be protected by the police, and anti-Semites from the Islamic death cult and/or the hard left are free to march through the streets of London calling for the eradication of Israel and celebrating the massacre of Jews. Open racism and calls of violence unchallenged by authority.

Enoch's (misquoted) rivers of blood are well on their way.

Nonsense, I'm afraid, but don't let that stop you.

While not wishing to belittle those that are in worried re. the marches in support of the Palestinians, perhaps they should have a word with Netanyahu and all those who blindly continue to support their assault on the Palestinians?

The vast majority of arrests in London on Saturday were right wing racists etc. ~300,000 marchers and exactly how many arrests as a %?

It's really interesting to look at the way this is all being reported, especially by the right wing media, which is most of it.

What, specifically, is nonsense? You don't think it's a terrifying time to be a Jew in Britain? You can't be disagreeing with the two tier policing, because that was evidentially borne out on Saturday, and equally the point about poppy sellers/racism/calls of violence were also plainly true.

Jews in Britain are not responsible for the Israeli government's actions, funnily enough, so I don't think the Jewish population experiencing a rise in anti-semitism is an acceptable cost, do you? Any more than a rise in abuse/attacks towards Muslims in Britain because of Hamas.

Of course the vast majority of arrests in London on Saturday were of those people. Because of the two tier policing system.

Most media, including the state broadcaster, are not right wing.

Having just trawled through your 'debate' with Julius et al, it's clear there's no point in me even beginning to engage with you on this. No offence.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:I don't believe in being 'Proud to be British', or any nationality, but it is encouraging to see so many people marching for peace and a ceasefire to the on-going brutality between Hamas and Israel and an end to the suffering of innocents on both sides (mainly Palestinians in the aftermath of 7th October).

As one woman on the march said -
"I am a Christian and God tells us to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. So I just felt absolutely compelled to come today." Hopefully Braverman and Duty don't find that sort of attitude too scary that they are afraid to leave their homes.

There are, and always have been, crazy minorities on both sides who need to be dealt with but in this case it is far easier to round up a small, isolated group of far right trouble-makers, in order to prevent trouble, than to weed out what is probably an equal number scattered amongst 300,000 other people.

I'm sure Duty will join me in appreciating the peaceful manner in which those vast numbers have marched, unless he's too busy planning his flight to a safer country, based on his own prejudices.

How many of these people marched for peace and a ceasefire after Hamas massacred innocents?

I don't accept your argument of 'mainly peaceful'. If you march with anti-semites and racists, you are also an anti-semite and a racist. No equivocation.

You know perfectly well, also, that I'm not referring to what one woman said on the march, either. I'm referring to calls for genocide and the destruction of the state of Israel, celebrating the massacre of Jews, wearing Hamas style clothing, holding up swastikas and the like. You might be glib about it, but it's terrifying for Jews in our country to see this as anti-semitism continues unabated.

Certainly not an equal number amongst the 300,000 either, unless you are ignorant about the hate for Jews from the hard left and some of the Islamic population.

What prejudices, also?

Oh, for Heaven's sake. Stop conflating two separate issues - why on Earth would those marching, specifically re. a cease fire in Gaza and for long-standing Palestinian enfranchisement following >75 years of abuse, dispossession and murder, go on a march for the innocents massacred by Hamas? You're also assuming that all those marching for Palestine have no feelings for the Israelis murdered by Hamas, which is just lazy.

Stop painting hundreds of thousands as anti-Semites etc, just because there may, arguably, have been some on the same damned march(es). It's pathetic. What calls for genocide (outside those of Hamas etc) ? The only genocide going on in that region just now is the continuing murder and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population. Unabated anti-Semitism? I'll try to respond when I've stopped laughing...

To your first question, that was in response to Julius saying they were marching for peace and a ceasefire. I was curious as to why, if they weren't taking sides, they didn't appear at solidarity rallies with Israel. We both know the reason why, of course.

There's no 'arguably' about it. Some of the organisers of the march have links to Hamas, just for a kick off. What calls for genocide? Deary me, clearly you know virtually nothing about what went on at the march. I thought the right-wing media, so rabid and apparent that it is, would have clued you in.

What's funny about unabated anti-Semitism? Anti-Semitic hate crimes are up by over 1000% in London. Is this person's distress amusing to you, also?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12620767/Ive-never-felt-frightened-Jewish-Britain-friends-say-deserve-it.html

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:In her article, Mrs Braverman, who declined to talk to reporters earlier as she left her home, claimed aggressive right-wing protesters were "rightly met with a stern response", while "pro-Palestinian mobs" were "largely ignored". She went on to say police were applying "double standards" and "played favourites when it comes to demonstrators".

And proven completely right today, although it is just words.

An absolutely terrifying time to be a Jew in Britain and a shameful reminder of how low the country has sunk in the 21st century under the guise of the Tories and Labour.

It's got to a point where poppy sellers need to be protected by the police, and anti-Semites from the Islamic death cult and/or the hard left are free to march through the streets of London calling for the eradication of Israel and celebrating the massacre of Jews. Open racism and calls of violence unchallenged by authority.

Enoch's (misquoted) rivers of blood are well on their way.

Nonsense, I'm afraid, but don't let that stop you.

While not wishing to belittle those that are in worried re. the marches in support of the Palestinians, perhaps they should have a word with Netanyahu and all those who blindly continue to support their assault on the Palestinians?

The vast majority of arrests in London on Saturday were right wing racists etc. ~300,000 marchers and exactly how many arrests as a %?

It's really interesting to look at the way this is all being reported, especially by the right wing media, which is most of it.

What, specifically, is nonsense? You don't think it's a terrifying time to be a Jew in Britain? You can't be disagreeing with the two tier policing, because that was evidentially borne out on Saturday, and equally the point about poppy sellers/racism/calls of violence were also plainly true.

Jews in Britain are not responsible for the Israeli government's actions, funnily enough, so I don't think the Jewish population experiencing a rise in anti-semitism is an acceptable cost, do you? Any more than a rise in abuse/attacks towards Muslims in Britain because of Hamas.

Of course the vast majority of arrests in London on Saturday were of those people. Because of the two tier policing system.

Most media, including the state broadcaster, are not right wing.

Having just trawled through your 'debate' with Julius et al, it's clear there's no point in me even beginning to engage with you on this. No offence.

None taken. I don't think you could have squared your viewpoint, either.

I see Nick Griffin is upset that we have another non-white Home Secretary.

Edit - it is any wonder, given that the UK has had a significant racist element for decades and that little has been done to tackle it, that hatred spreads? One reason for the recent rise in anti-semitism is that the UK has tolerated racism for so long, that many people see it as an extension of the norm.

JuliusHMarx wrote:I see Nick Griffin is upset that we have another non-white Home Secretary.

Edit - it is any wonder, given that the UK has had a significant racist element for decades and that little has been done to tackle it, that hatred spreads? One reason for the recent rise in anti-semitism is that the UK has tolerated racism for so long, that many people see it as an extension of the norm.

Once saw Griffin described as looking like a c*nt's butler. Pretty spot-on.

JuliusHMarx wrote:I see Nick Griffin is upset that we have another non-white Home Secretary.

Edit - it is any wonder, given that the UK has had a significant racist element for decades and that little has been done to tackle it, that hatred spreads? One reason for the recent rise in anti-semitism is that the UK has tolerated racism for so long, that many people see it as an extension of the norm.

Could you expand on your edit a little more, please?

In addition to Nick Griffin's charming views on those who are a different colour, he is also a raging anti-semite. Lot of infighting amongst that lot. Griffin's having a go at Robinson (who is very pro-Israel); and that Fransen woman who co-leads Britain First (I think) has nailed her colours to the Free Palestine mast, which differs from the other leader of Britain First who appears to be pro-Israel.

We've had a significant racist element for decades and little has been done to tackle it. It's hardly as if racism didn't exist in the UK until the recent increase in anti-semitism. An example is the systematic racism in the Met, that is still an issue today.

JuliusHMarx wrote:I see Nick Griffin is upset that we have another non-white Home Secretary.

Edit - it is any wonder, given that the UK has had a significant racist element for decades and that little has been done to tackle it, that hatred spreads? One reason for the recent rise in anti-semitism is that the UK has tolerated racism for so long, that many people see it as an extension of the norm.

A mixed bag, I think. No-one has done anything about the concerns of a lot of people re. immigration, whether those concerns are based in reality or not. Brexit (and the 'out' campaign that went with it). Boris Johnson et al. A cratering lifestyle expectancy for too many. Unaccountable (to all intents and purposes), talentless politicians. More and more wealth graduating to fewer and fewer. "Social" (that's a laugh) media. Generally crap mainstream media only interested in what the boss says they should publish. A nation that still wistfully thinks it's in control of an Empire and what that all too often meant etc.

It's all too easy to blame the "other" in society, whomever that may be, when you feel your life is pretty s**t.

JuliusHMarx wrote:We've had a significant racist element for decades and little has been done to tackle it. It's hardly as if racism didn't exist in the UK until the recent increase in anti-semitism. An example is the systematic racism in the Met, that is still an issue today.

I disagree that little has been done to tackle racism. The UK has made huge strides over the past decades. But yes I am concerned about the lax efforts to police racism in some forms, including with anti-Semitism, and misguided aspects of what's termed positive discrimination/affirmative action in a bid for equality.

The main reason for the recent sharp rise in anti-Semitism has, of course, been Hamas' attack on the 7th October.

navyblueshorts wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:I see Nick Griffin is upset that we have another non-white Home Secretary.

Edit - it is any wonder, given that the UK has had a significant racist element for decades and that little has been done to tackle it, that hatred spreads? One reason for the recent rise in anti-semitism is that the UK has tolerated racism for so long, that many people see it as an extension of the norm.

A mixed bag, I think. No-one has done anything about the concerns of a lot of people re. immigration, whether those concerns are based in reality or not. Brexit (and the 'out' campaign that went with it). Boris Johnson et al. A cratering lifestyle expectancy for too many. Unaccountable (to all intents and purposes), talentless politicians. More and more wealth graduating to fewer and fewer. "Social" (that's a laugh) media. Generally crap mainstream media only interested in what the boss says they should publish. A nation that still wistfully thinks it's in control of an Empire and what that all too often meant etc.

It's all too easy to blame the "other" in society, whomever that may be, when you feel your life is pretty s**t.

Aside from the continual nonsense about Empire, this is broadly accurate.

It's why the UK may be on a very dark path, and it's up to established politicians to deal with the problems correctly, otherwise more extreme parties will find a foothold (as has happened on the continent and some other places around the world).

Perhaps I should have put 'nowhere near enough' rather than 'little'.
One of the reasons the police fail to police racism is that they themselves are the racists in many cases. Welcome to Britain.
Israel's indiscriminate collective punishment, forced displacement and killing of thousands of innocent people has also contributed to anti-semitism among those who, for whatever reason, are unable to distinguish between the Israeli state and Jews in general - many of whom have joined in the marches. Certainly anger towards the Israeli government is justified (and obviously towards Hamas who are even worse).

The Times of Israel is reporting that Israel is considering appointing Tony Blair as Gaza humanitarian coordinator. At least they'd have someone quite knowledgeable about war crimes.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Perhaps I should have put 'nowhere near enough' rather than 'little'.
One of the reasons the police fail to police racism is that they themselves are the racists in many cases. Welcome to Britain.
Israel's indiscriminate collective punishment, forced displacement and killing of thousands of innocent people has also contributed to anti-semitism among those who, for whatever reason, are unable to distinguish between the Israeli state and Jews in general - many of whom have joined in the marches. Certainly anger towards the Israeli government is justified (and obviously towards Hamas who are even worse).

Fair on the first sentence.

About the police that is true in many instances, but it hasn't been the case with regard to how they've been acting on these recent marches - more than happy to take down the so-called far-right. Not so keen to put a stamp on anti-Semites.

'Welcome to Britain'. Racism does exist here of course, as it does all over the globe, but this is one of the least racist countries in the world.

JuliusHMarx wrote:The Times of Israel is reporting that Israel is considering appointing Tony Blair as Gaza humanitarian coordinator. At least they'd have someone quite knowledgeable about war crimes.

Clown world. I wonder if with Sunak opening the door for Cameron's return, we'll see other former PMs, such as Blair, or former high ranking ministers return under future governments.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Perhaps I should have put 'nowhere near enough' rather than 'little'.
One of the reasons the police fail to police racism is that they themselves are the racists in many cases. Welcome to Britain.
Israel's indiscriminate collective punishment, forced displacement and killing of thousands of innocent people has also contributed to anti-semitism among those who, for whatever reason, are unable to distinguish between the Israeli state and Jews in general - many of whom have joined in the marches. Certainly anger towards the Israeli government is justified (and obviously towards Hamas who are even worse).

Fair on the first sentence.

About the police that is true in many instances, but it hasn't been the case with regard to how they've been acting on these recent marches - more than happy to take down the so-called far-right. Not so keen to put a stamp on anti-Semites.

'Welcome to Britain'. Racism does exist here of course, as it does all over the globe, but this is one of the least racist countries in the world.

Hmmm. There were 300,000 racists on the march in the capital alone on Saturday. How many other countries can say that?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Perhaps I should have put 'nowhere near enough' rather than 'little'.
One of the reasons the police fail to police racism is that they themselves are the racists in many cases. Welcome to Britain.
Israel's indiscriminate collective punishment, forced displacement and killing of thousands of innocent people has also contributed to anti-semitism among those who, for whatever reason, are unable to distinguish between the Israeli state and Jews in general - many of whom have joined in the marches. Certainly anger towards the Israeli government is justified (and obviously towards Hamas who are even worse).

Fair on the first sentence.

About the police that is true in many instances, but it hasn't been the case with regard to how they've been acting on these recent marches - more than happy to take down the so-called far-right. Not so keen to put a stamp on anti-Semites.

'Welcome to Britain'. Racism does exist here of course, as it does all over the globe, but this is one of the least racist countries in the world.

Hmmm. There were 300,000 racists on the march in the capital alone on Saturday. How many other countries can say that?

Thankfully a tiny minority.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/javier-milei-argentina-thatcher-praise-falklands-veterans

One of the final two candidates in the battle for the Presidency of Argentina has praised....Lady Thatcher.

That's a very ballsy move. Quite ballsy in this country, never mind Argentina!

JuliusHMarx wrote:The Times of Israel is reporting that Israel is considering appointing Tony Blair as Gaza humanitarian coordinator. At least they'd have someone quite knowledgeable about war crimes.

Quite laughable if it's in any way serious. I mean, Bliar must have quite the level of credit with the Arab nations etc. Oh...

Superb resignation letter from Braverman. Highlights:

Despite you having been rejected by a majority of party members during the summer leadership contest and thus having no personal mandate to be prime minister, I agreed to support you because of the firm assurances you gave me on key policy priorities.

You have manifestly and repeatedly failed to deliver on every single one of these key policies. Either your distinctive style of government means you are incapable of doing so. Or, as I must surely conclude now, you never had any intention of keeping your promises.

Our deal was no mere promise over dinner, to be discarded when convenient and denied when challenged.

Another cause for disappointment - and the context for my recent article in The Times - has been your failure to rise to the challenge posed by the increasingly vicious antisemitism and extremism displayed on our streets since Hamas's terrorist atrocities of 7 October. I have become hoarse urging you to consider legislation to ban the hate marches and help stem the rising tide of racism, intimidation and terrorist glorification threatening community cohesion.

Britain is at a turning point in our history and faces a threat of radicalisation and extremism in a way not seen for 20 years. I regret to say that your response has been uncertain, weak, and lacking in the qualities of leadership that this country needs. Rather than fully acknowledge the severity of this threat, your team disagreed with me for weeks that the law needed changing. As on so many other issues, you sought to put off tough decisions in order to minimise political risk to yourself. In doing so, you have increased the very real risk these marches present to everyone else. In October of last year you were given an opportunity to lead our country. It is a privilege to serve and one we should not take for granted. Service requires bravery and thinking of the common good.

Someone needs to be honest: your plan is not working, we have endured record election defeats, your resets have failed and we are running out of time. You need to change course urgently.

That last line comes with a Survation poll showing the Tories are currently on course to win 151 seats at the next GE, with Labour sweeping 434. 52% think taxes are too high and, amusingly, in that same poll more people now associate the Tory Party as being the high tax party, not Labour.

One of the criticisms of Braverman was that she often seemed to brimming with hatred and anger, liable to fly off the handle and throw her toys out of the pram in a screaming fit. Fortunately that letter shows her in a much more gentle light.

JuliusHMarx wrote:.... she often seemed to brimming with hatred and anger,  liable to fly off the handle and throw her toys out of the pram in a screaming fit....

Is that the impression you got when listening to her directly?

What I found interesting is how many were on the *peace/hate march and wearing face covering to disguise identity. Wonder why some didn't want to be recognised...

*delete as appropriate

Duty281 wrote:Superb resignation letter from Braverman. Highlights:

Despite you having been rejected by a majority of party members during the summer leadership contest and thus having no personal mandate to be prime minister, I agreed to support you because of the firm assurances you gave me on key policy priorities.

You have manifestly and repeatedly failed to deliver on every single one of these key policies. Either your distinctive style of government means you are incapable of doing so. Or, as I must surely conclude now, you never had any intention of keeping your promises.

Our deal was no mere promise over dinner, to be discarded when convenient and denied when challenged.

Another cause for disappointment - and the context for my recent article in The Times - has been your failure to rise to the challenge posed by the increasingly vicious antisemitism and extremism displayed on our streets since Hamas's terrorist atrocities of 7 October. I have become hoarse urging you to consider legislation to ban the hate marches and help stem the rising tide of racism, intimidation and terrorist glorification threatening community cohesion.

Britain is at a turning point in our history and faces a threat of radicalisation and extremism in a way not seen for 20 years. I regret to say that your response has been uncertain, weak, and lacking in the qualities of leadership that this country needs. Rather than fully acknowledge the severity of this threat, your team disagreed with me for weeks that the law needed changing. As on so many other issues, you sought to put off tough decisions in order to minimise political risk to yourself. In doing so, you have increased the very real risk these marches present to everyone else. In October of last year you were given an opportunity to lead our country. It is a privilege to serve and one we should not take for granted. Service requires bravery and thinking of the common good.

Someone needs to be honest: your plan is not working, we have endured record election defeats, your resets have failed and we are running out of time. You need to change course urgently.

That last line comes with a Survation poll showing the Tories are currently on course to win 151 seats at the next GE, with Labour sweeping 434. 52% think taxes are too high and, amusingly, in that same poll more people now associate the Tory Party as being the high tax party, not Labour.

Superb? Not really. Childish and utterly unsurprising, more like. What is it with politicians that they think it clever to publish open letters? Just **** off. Write whatever you like to the PM, but keep your childish s**t to those that get off on it. The worst Home Secretary in living memory. Good riddance.

mountain man wrote:What I found interesting is how many were on the *peace/hate march and wearing face covering to disguise identity. Wonder why some didn't want to be recognised...

*delete as appropriate

Oh, I don't know. Maybe worried about being unfairly sacked from their jobs? Maybe worried about the chilling narrative that Braverman has been helping to stoke? Could be a lot of things...

Nope, don't buy that. If you believe in a cause enough to go and support it then why be afraid of being seen? How could someone be sacked for attending a lawful march (assuming they didn't break any laws on march).

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Superb resignation letter from Braverman. Highlights:

Despite you having been rejected by a majority of party members during the summer leadership contest and thus having no personal mandate to be prime minister, I agreed to support you because of the firm assurances you gave me on key policy priorities.

You have manifestly and repeatedly failed to deliver on every single one of these key policies. Either your distinctive style of government means you are incapable of doing so. Or, as I must surely conclude now, you never had any intention of keeping your promises.

Our deal was no mere promise over dinner, to be discarded when convenient and denied when challenged.

Another cause for disappointment - and the context for my recent article in The Times - has been your failure to rise to the challenge posed by the increasingly vicious antisemitism and extremism displayed on our streets since Hamas's terrorist atrocities of 7 October. I have become hoarse urging you to consider legislation to ban the hate marches and help stem the rising tide of racism, intimidation and terrorist glorification threatening community cohesion.

Britain is at a turning point in our history and faces a threat of radicalisation and extremism in a way not seen for 20 years. I regret to say that your response has been uncertain, weak, and lacking in the qualities of leadership that this country needs. Rather than fully acknowledge the severity of this threat, your team disagreed with me for weeks that the law needed changing. As on so many other issues, you sought to put off tough decisions in order to minimise political risk to yourself. In doing so, you have increased the very real risk these marches present to everyone else. In October of last year you were given an opportunity to lead our country. It is a privilege to serve and one we should not take for granted. Service requires bravery and thinking of the common good.

Someone needs to be honest: your plan is not working, we have endured record election defeats, your resets have failed and we are running out of time. You need to change course urgently.

That last line comes with a Survation poll showing the Tories are currently on course to win 151 seats at the next GE, with Labour sweeping 434. 52% think taxes are too high and, amusingly, in that same poll more people now associate the Tory Party as being the high tax party, not Labour.

Superb? Not really. Childish and utterly unsurprising, more like. What is it with politicians that they think it clever to publish open letters? Just **** off. Write whatever you like to the PM, but keep your childish s**t to those that get off on it. The worst Home Secretary in living memory. Good riddance.

Quite an achievement to bypass Priti in that respect.

Alas, Rwanda plan unlawful says the UK Supreme Court....

mountain man wrote:Nope, don't buy that. If you believe in a cause enough to go and support it then why be afraid of being seen? How could someone be sacked for attending a lawful march (assuming they didn't break any laws on march).

You don't have to buy it, but that doesn't mean that some were doing so exactly for that reason.

How could someone be sacked? Why don't you go ask some of those already sacked etc for making any contrary remark etc that Israel's actions are criminal/genocidal etc etc? Also, are you suggesting that someone, say, who has a criminal past (but has served time etc) or might be associated with some sort of proscribed group might not want to cover up on the recent London march, even if, on that march itself, they do nothing illegal?

Are you suggesting (I think that's what's implied) that those wearing any sort of face covering were actual criminals or members/supporters of Hamas? A little absolutist, perhaps?

mountain man wrote:What I found interesting is how many were on the peace march and wearing face covering to disguise identity. Wonder why some didn't want to be recognised...

How many were there?

No name Bertie wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:.... she often seemed to brimming with hatred and anger,  liable to fly off the handle and throw her toys out of the pram in a screaming fit....

Is that the impression you got when listening to her directly?

Yes

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Superb resignation letter from Braverman. Highlights:

Despite you having been rejected by a majority of party members during the summer leadership contest and thus having no personal mandate to be prime minister, I agreed to support you because of the firm assurances you gave me on key policy priorities.

You have manifestly and repeatedly failed to deliver on every single one of these key policies. Either your distinctive style of government means you are incapable of doing so. Or, as I must surely conclude now, you never had any intention of keeping your promises.

Our deal was no mere promise over dinner, to be discarded when convenient and denied when challenged.

Another cause for disappointment - and the context for my recent article in The Times - has been your failure to rise to the challenge posed by the increasingly vicious antisemitism and extremism displayed on our streets since Hamas's terrorist atrocities of 7 October. I have become hoarse urging you to consider legislation to ban the hate marches and help stem the rising tide of racism, intimidation and terrorist glorification threatening community cohesion.

Britain is at a turning point in our history and faces a threat of radicalisation and extremism in a way not seen for 20 years. I regret to say that your response has been uncertain, weak, and lacking in the qualities of leadership that this country needs. Rather than fully acknowledge the severity of this threat, your team disagreed with me for weeks that the law needed changing. As on so many other issues, you sought to put off tough decisions in order to minimise political risk to yourself. In doing so, you have increased the very real risk these marches present to everyone else. In October of last year you were given an opportunity to lead our country. It is a privilege to serve and one we should not take for granted. Service requires bravery and thinking of the common good.

Someone needs to be honest: your plan is not working, we have endured record election defeats, your resets have failed and we are running out of time. You need to change course urgently.

That last line comes with a Survation poll showing the Tories are currently on course to win 151 seats at the next GE, with Labour sweeping 434. 52% think taxes are too high and, amusingly, in that same poll more people now associate the Tory Party as being the high tax party, not Labour.

Superb? Not really. Childish and utterly unsurprising, more like. What is it with politicians that they think it clever to publish open letters? Just **** off. Write whatever you like to the PM, but keep your childish s**t to those that get off on it. The worst Home Secretary in living memory. Good riddance.

Quite an achievement to bypass Priti in that respect.

Ah yes! The Great Patel. I forgot her, to be fair. Even so, on reflection I'd have Braverman as worse. God, this current Government really are filled with altruistic talent, aren't they?

I'm not suggesting anything, you are inferring that.

I'm just wondering why anyone who hasn't committed any offence etc feels the need to hide their identity. Seems a bit suspicious to me.

They knew there was a good chance of someone bringing a racist sign and didn't want to be labelled as a racist.

Smart tbh

The Gaza strip is a sh!t show. It is not impossible to regret and mourn for both the victims of Hamas terrorism and of the Israeli response.

I don't know what the answer is. There is no question that Israel needed to respond, but there is a danger that the response goes too far in terms of destruction and that lovely old phrase 'collateral damage'. The language being used to demonise both sides goes too far.

It is easy to identify causes - that goes back to Hamas and to Netanyahu's government's failure to see the attack coming, which seems to be explained to some extent with political meddling with Israeli intelligence services leading to key capabilities being lost.

But what we have now is a humanitarian catastrophe. I don't buy the actual numbers put out by the Palestinians but it is self evident that thousands are suffering and dying under Israeli bombs, and that the vast majority have nothing to do with Hamas. Significant numbers are not even Muslim. High explosives kill and maim a great deal more easily than an f*cked up extremist with a knife, it's just a lot less personal.

Worth remembering nobody has voted for Hamas since what? 2006? A tiny proportion of still living Palestinians voted for them. By the same token they don't have many reasons to be friendly with Israelis whose own tiny subset of extremists continue to inflame relationships. Populist governments like to have bad guys to blame for all their problems.

I don't think it is unreasonable for people to march for peace. Of course some will be anti semitic, but no reason why most should be. As frequently stated above that peace march didn't generate violence. Even the Gove incident seemed manufactured at best. There was violence on the day of course, but that was down to a different set of people.

mountain man wrote:What I found interesting is how many were on the *peace/hate march and wearing face covering to disguise identity. Wonder why some didn't want to be recognised...

*delete as appropriate

Many of those who were chanting genocidal slogans and/or being violent were wearing face coverings. It's quite clever because the police strategy was to identify people later on, through pictures and video, then make arrests, rather than dealing with it at the time. They're going to be hard to track down.

Of course, there were many other openly racist idiots who were so dumb they didn't try to hide their identity.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Superb resignation letter from Braverman. Highlights:

Despite you having been rejected by a majority of party members during the summer leadership contest and thus having no personal mandate to be prime minister, I agreed to support you because of the firm assurances you gave me on key policy priorities.

You have manifestly and repeatedly failed to deliver on every single one of these key policies. Either your distinctive style of government means you are incapable of doing so. Or, as I must surely conclude now, you never had any intention of keeping your promises.

Our deal was no mere promise over dinner, to be discarded when convenient and denied when challenged.

Another cause for disappointment - and the context for my recent article in The Times - has been your failure to rise to the challenge posed by the increasingly vicious antisemitism and extremism displayed on our streets since Hamas's terrorist atrocities of 7 October. I have become hoarse urging you to consider legislation to ban the hate marches and help stem the rising tide of racism, intimidation and terrorist glorification threatening community cohesion.

Britain is at a turning point in our history and faces a threat of radicalisation and extremism in a way not seen for 20 years. I regret to say that your response has been uncertain, weak, and lacking in the qualities of leadership that this country needs. Rather than fully acknowledge the severity of this threat, your team disagreed with me for weeks that the law needed changing. As on so many other issues, you sought to put off tough decisions in order to minimise political risk to yourself. In doing so, you have increased the very real risk these marches present to everyone else. In October of last year you were given an opportunity to lead our country. It is a privilege to serve and one we should not take for granted. Service requires bravery and thinking of the common good.

Someone needs to be honest: your plan is not working, we have endured record election defeats, your resets have failed and we are running out of time. You need to change course urgently.

That last line comes with a Survation poll showing the Tories are currently on course to win 151 seats at the next GE, with Labour sweeping 434. 52% think taxes are too high and, amusingly, in that same poll more people now associate the Tory Party as being the high tax party, not Labour.

Superb? Not really. Childish and utterly unsurprising, more like. What is it with politicians that they think it clever to publish open letters? Just **** off. Write whatever you like to the PM, but keep your childish s**t to those that get off on it. The worst Home Secretary in living memory. Good riddance.

I think it's good to be open. Then we better understand the position of politicians.

navyblueshorts wrote:Alas, Rwanda plan unlawful says the UK Supreme Court....

Sunak. Out of his depth in a paddling pool. That such a low-grade politician is PM highlights everything perfectly.

navyblueshorts wrote:

mountain man wrote:Nope, don't buy that. If you believe in a cause enough to go and support it then why be afraid of being seen? How could someone be sacked for attending a lawful march (assuming they didn't break any laws on march).

You don't have to buy it, but that doesn't mean that some were doing so exactly for that reason.

How could someone be sacked? Why don't you go ask some of those already sacked etc for making any contrary remark etc that Israel's actions are criminal/genocidal etc etc? Also, are you suggesting that someone, say, who has a criminal past (but has served time etc) or might be associated with some sort of proscribed group might not want to cover up on the recent London march, even if, on that march itself, they do nothing illegal?

Are you suggesting (I think that's what's implied) that those wearing any sort of face covering were actual criminals or members/supporters of Hamas? A little absolutist, perhaps?

Can you provide some examples of people sacked for saying Israel's actions are criminal/genocidal? Ta.

Duty281 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mountain man wrote:Nope, don't buy that. If you believe in a cause enough to go and support it then why be afraid of being seen? How could someone be sacked for attending a lawful march (assuming they didn't break any laws on march).

You don't have to buy it, but that doesn't mean that some were doing so exactly for that reason.

How could someone be sacked? Why don't you go ask some of those already sacked etc for making any contrary remark etc that Israel's actions are criminal/genocidal etc etc? Also, are you suggesting that someone, say, who has a criminal past (but has served time etc) or might be associated with some sort of proscribed group might not want to cover up on the recent London march, even if, on that march itself, they do nothing illegal?

Are you suggesting (I think that's what's implied) that those wearing any sort of face covering were actual criminals or members/supporters of Hamas? A little absolutist, perhaps?

Can you provide some examples of people sacked for saying Israel's actions are criminal/genocidal? Ta.

Not from the UK marches, although possibly moreso in the US - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/mccarthyite-backlash-response-to-criticism-of-israel-alarms-rights-groups
And there was this guy - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-67128273

Obviously that's The Guardian and the BBC, so I'm not sure if you will believe either one.

It's not just Gaza. The West Bank is brewing up and Hamas has presence there as well - Netanyahu's claim of "destroy Hamas" likely w/o actions in the West Bank?

The origin of this sh!t show, is the decades old disenfranchisement of the Palestinians, Bedouin etc during the establishment of Israel and all that has followed from there.

Didn't Netanyahu, in 2019 and never denied I think, say to his Likud acolytes "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

It's been Israeli policy to separate Gaza from the West Bank and to prevent Israel from having to adhere to its UN commitments and allow the establishment of a proper Palestinian state as per UN 181 etc. Instead of this, you have 'Plan Dalet' and, essentially, the ethnic cleaning of Palestine. Many of those displaced, robbed, murdered etc in the late 1940s were Israeli citizens as of May 1948, but they were unlucky enough not to have been Jews, Druze or Circassians etc and so their own Government kicked them out to Gaza, Jordan etc. Funnily enough they (and their descendants) would quite like to return to their homeland. This will not end until there's an honourable settlement for those people.

If one is Israeli, why would one want to live in constant fear of terrorist attacks, as now? Saw a lovely picture the other day of a young man in civilian garb, and I presume his girlfriend/wife, queueing to get something at a bakery. How lovely. Shame he feels the need to carry an assault rifle to get his morning coffee and cake etc. What a life.

Israel could metaphorically disarm Iran, Hesbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc etc in the region quite simply. All they have to do is what they have already agreed at the UN that they would do - allow a Palestinian state and the right of return for those displaced in the 1940s, 50s etc. It's not that they can't do it. It's that they won't, and therein lies the problem. For that matter, Hamas et al could present Israel with a problem if they simply said "OK. We'll disarm, absolutely, and change our founding statement(s) re. the existence of the Israeli state if you agree to adhere to UN 181." Neither seem to have the brains, however, and/or it's all really about personal power on both sides, as I suspect it is.

Another issue that I suspect is a problem for the region is as Nikki Hayley mentioned in the recent GOP debate in Iowa(?) when asked about the current situation. She described Israel as "the tip of the spear" in that region. The US is interested in maintaining the status quo in that region for its own geopolitical aims and probably dishonestly spinning about wanting a "two-state solution" etc etc. In the meantime, an entire people remain stateless and oppressed, settlers kill Palestinians with apparent impunity and while being watched by the IDF, Hamas etc wingnuts think up new and nastier ways to kill Israeli civilians etc etc.

It'll never happen due to America's veto at the UN, but this is the sort of thing the UN is for. Get a UN force into Gaza and the West Bank to both keep the peace if it can ever be arrived at and force Israel and the various terrorist factions to adhere to the law. In hindsight, it would have been so much better for the fledgling UN to have administered what is now Israel when the UK handed over the Mandate, and then transitioned to a free-standing Israel and Palestine as laid out in UN 181, but I guess no-one had the guts to propose that after the horrors of the Holocaust etc. Interesting factoid: Israeli terrorists (led by a future Israeli Prime Minister) assassinated the first UN Envoy, Folke Bernadotte, because he appeared to be too good at his job and was raising questions over the Palestinian issues after Israel had become a state. This, the man who'd helped to get ~400 Jews released from Theresienstadt concentration camp in WWII...