Wales International Rugby Summer 23 onwards.

First topic message reminder :

As the pages were going over 20 shortly, I’ve had to start a new thread. This is still the place to discuss the U20s, the women and everything else internationally. Updated RWC 23 squad below.

Forwards (25)

Corey Domachowski (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Kemsley Mathias (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nicky Smith (Ospreys / Gweilch– 42 caps)
Gareth Thomas (Ospreys /Gweilch – 21 caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons / Dregiau– 41 caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets – 33 caps)
Dewi Lake (Ospreys / Gweilch – 8 caps)
Sam Parry (Ospreys / Gweilch – 5 caps)
Keiron Assiratti (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Tomas Francis (Ospreys / Gweilch – 71 caps)
Dillon Lewis (Harlequins – 50 caps)
Henry Thomas (Montpellier – uncapped)
Adam Beard (Ospreys / Gweilch– 46 caps)
Ben Carter (Dragons / Dregiau– 9 caps)
Rhys Davies (Ospreys / Gweilch – 2 caps)
Dafydd Jenkins (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 6 caps)
Will Rowlands (Dragons / Dregiau – 23 caps)
Christ Tshiunza (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 5 caps)
Teddy Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Taine Basham (Dragons / Dregiau – 11 caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 100 caps)
Dan Lydiate (Dragons / Dregiau – 68 caps)
Jac Morgan (Ospreys / Gweilch – 9 caps)
Tommy Reffell (Leicester Tigers / Caerlŷr– 9 caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons / Dregiau – 37 caps)

Backs (22)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets – 67 caps)
Kieran Hardy (Scarlets – 17 caps)
Tomos Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 45 caps)
Gareth Anscombe (unattached – 35 caps)
Dan Biggar (Toulon – 107 caps)
Sam Costelow (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Owen Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – 7 caps)
Mason Grady (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 2 caps)
Max Llewellyn (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw – uncapped)
George North (Ospreys / Gweilch – 113 caps)
Joe Roberts (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens – 27 caps)
Johnny Williams (Scarlets – 5 caps)
Keiran Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – uncapped)
Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 49 caps)
Alex Cuthbert (Ospreys / Gweilch – 57 caps)
Rio Dyer (Dragons / Dregiau – 7 caps)
Cai Evans (Ospreys/ Gweilch – uncapped)
Leigh Halfpenny (unattached – 99 caps)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw– 25 caps)
Tom Rogers (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Liam Williams (Cardiff Rugby/ Caerdydd – 84 caps)

Well done Fiji. Fair result.

Well I was nearly right

So looking like it could be 0-4 for the home nations this weekend

Bad luck welsh supporters, that one was tough. Huge congrats to Fiji on a first win in Cardiff. It's amazing to see new walls being pulled down by the so called "tier 2" sides.

Fiji utterly mad to play on after the Welsh knock on!

I think a deserved win for Fiji, and they bungled numerous chances to make the scoreline more convincing. Wales looked a bit like England yesterday, and stopped playing after the early scores.

Australia and South Africa to close out the year for Wales. Looks sure to be a winless year if they can't beat Australia. And Fiji could be so good if they smarten up their discipline.

Tight game. Could have gone either way. Actually felt this was another step forward in terms of performance - just too many similar errors cost them the game. The last attack summing up the game. Basically played 60 minutes with a passenger on the wing too. Not Costelow’s fault, and the bench split was mental, but it definitely hindered them.

Still don't like the 20 minutes red card

carpet baboon wrote:Still don't like the 20 minutes red card

I am a fan of the new orange card, but in this instance I am unsure if Radradra actually deserved a straight old fashioned red? It was a bad challenge and even though the Welsh player was bent low I think he could/should have done better.

Great job by Fiji.

Can we please just get rid of Gatland now.

Wonder if that fraud in the crowd Tierney, regrets saying “like hell” to Gatland’s supposed resignation offer now?

Can’t begrudge Fiji a win at all, but like I said earlier I felt Gatland used his bench terribly. I wouldn’t hook my captain that early and we lost a carrying threat then. 6/2 doesn’t look wise either.

Assuming at the end of the autumn Wales are 0-12 Gatland you would think would offer to walk? Can he really keep the backing of the players as he seems to lay most the blame on them for every loss.

carpet baboon wrote:Assuming at the end of the autumn Wales are 0-12 Gatland you would think would offer to walk? Can he really keep the backing of the players as he seems to lay most the blame on them for every loss.

What’s the rules on sacking vs walking? If he walks do we have to pay him off? If not then great but I can’t see him walking away from £600k per year. He won’t get that anywhere else. It’s mad that he’s on over double what the highest paid players in Wales can earn. If he’s sacked then we need to pay him the remainder. 3 years left? A cool £1.8m or so at a time when money is very tight. Again, can’t see it happening.

If it's not gross misconduct then sacking is usually the rest of contract, or whatever is actually written in the contract, if he walks it can be an agreement between parties, or again there could be a provision written into the contract as too the compensation if it's a mutually agreed termination.
I'm no expert so I could be wrong. But most scenarios will have been agreed too and written into his contract. But normally there is a provision for the parties to agree to something else if they can agree on it..
Look at Felix Jones. Resigned but is having to "work" his 12 month notice.
Contractual law can be interesting and rather confusing

Good point re the finer details of the contract. Knowing the buffoons at the WRU though I doubt they thought to write anything performance related into his contact! Probably just a £600k contract for 4 years with no clauses, stipulations or targets!

You would think more sports manager contracts would have performance related clauses

carpet baboon wrote:You would think more sports manager contracts would have performance related clauses

Maybe I’m being a bit harsh on the WRU. I really have no idea what’s in his contract. But then, it’s the WRU so a good chance they’ve messed up!

Gatland saying after the match they sent the wrong replacement on for Grady, it should have been the SH. Somewhere along the line it got miss communicated

It’s being reported that Wales made a substitution error when Costelow came on to play wing when Grady was injured. Apparently it was meant to be Ellis Bevan. They cocked up the substitution somehow Jesus wept! Can it get any worse?!

Laughable that. His whole press conference and the interview I saw with S4C, was embarrassing. Having a pop at the Welsh press etc. I think he gets an easy ride off all the press really. They should be calling him out on earning his substantial coin.

I would've thought that a member of the backroom team, would've had to have gained permission for Costelow to go on too. He can't just run on the pitch, on a whim. It seems a convenient excuse.

We have to be the laughing stock of world rugby, even more so than in the 90s? WRU allowed Gatland to do his own performance review after a wooden spoon!

I didn’t even watch the game earlier. Catching up now and seeing that this unfolded against 14 men! A bit of a confusing one as I’ve seen worse get yellow in the URC, and Winnett (still not good enough at this level) had landed awkwardly and lent forward.

I didn't see the game but I''m sorry to Wales fans for the loss.

More importantly, is a first choice 23 starting to emerge for the new generation of younger players?

George Carlin wrote:I didn't see the game but I''m sorry to Wales fans for the loss.

More importantly, is a first choice 23 starting to emerge for the new generation of younger players?

I think that is it really, aside from Morgan starting. I don't think Gatland will change the starting xv for next week (aside from Morgan for Reffell). I do think he will change the bench quite a bit though, as most of the forwards he threw on mega early didn't make an impact.

RiscaGame wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I didn't see the game but I''m sorry to Wales fans for the loss.

More importantly, is a first choice 23 starting to emerge for the new generation of younger players?

I think that is it really, aside from Morgan starting. I don't think Gatland will change the starting xv for next week (aside from Morgan for Reffell). I do think he will change the bench quite a bit though, as most of the forwards he threw on mega early didn't make an impact.

6-2 bench split didn't really work for Wales either.

He won't rush to do that next week. I wouldn't be surprised if he tried it again v SA though.

It's Monday morning. Why are Abi, Nigel, Gatland and Howley still in a job....

mikey_dragon wrote:It's Monday morning. Why are Abi, Nigel, Gatland and Howley still in a job....

I dont think we can afford the pay off to be honest. Would cost us +1mill just to remove Gatland. And even then who do we get? Is there any good coach who would take on this role at the moment? I doubt it.

I dont think much of Abi & Nigel either but again the WRU likely can't afford to keep replacing staff.

I've said time and time again that regional rugby has played a part in the current woes at international level. There has never really been any long term planning on player pathways. I dont even think they are fixing the problem at this moment in time.

The sad thing in all of this is that I think this could be the start of a death spiral in welsh rugby. If Wales keep losing i can't see them keeping the revenue levels they have been the last 10 years. If that happens there will be less money for regional rugby which in turn likely results in less teams, then less chances to develop youngsters to the point where we truly become a tier 2 nation.

I wish I was more hopeful than this......

Watch this be a classic Wales looking dead and buried then they go and win a grand slam

carpet baboon wrote:Watch this be a classic Wales looking dead and buried then they go and win a grand slam

Only if Gatland goes and they make an inspired selection as head coach.

Don't think a new head coach will solve much, I think the issue with Wales is their under 20s havent finished in the top 3 in the U20 6 nations since 2017, and last number of years have been last or 2nd last. Untill the underage programs start delivering more, for the URC sides and then national coach to work with, there won't be a massive upturn in fortunes.

Welshmushroom wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:It's Monday morning. Why are Abi, Nigel, Gatland and Howley still in a job....

I dont think we can afford the pay off to be honest.  Would cost us +1mill just to remove Gatland.  And even then who do we get?  Is there any good coach who would take on this role at the moment?  I doubt it.

I dont think much of Abi & Nigel either but again the WRU likely can't afford to keep replacing staff.  

I've said time and time again that regional rugby has played a part in the current woes at international level.  There has never really been any long term planning on player pathways.  I dont even think they are fixing the problem at this moment in time.  

The sad thing in all of this is that I think this could be the start of a death spiral in welsh rugby.  If Wales keep losing i can't see them keeping the revenue levels they have been the last 10 years.  If that happens there will be less money for regional rugby which in turn likely results in less teams, then less chances to develop youngsters to the point where we truly become a tier 2 nation.  

I wish I was more hopeful than this......

Every time someone rightfully calls for him to be gone, we get this standard reply - as if it makes everything okay. Surely if you've lost 10 on the bounce then that's enough? That is even before factoring in how he's treated some players and how he's mocked the jersey by drawing names out of a hat. Will you be saying the same thing after 20 losses? 30 losses? One win in two 6N, a wooden spoon, nothing to show but a handful of wins around the world cup, culminating in a bizarre loss to an average Argentina - another team that's since improved btw, so that is everyone bar Wales getting better. Surely that was more than enough a year ago? For me he was a quick fix and should have gone after the world cup. Now look where we are.

Of course, the buck doesn't stop with him but he's got to go. The entire coaching team, Howley especially, should also go. Fraudsters Walker and Tierney can then go. Hopefully the next people work out that we have to fix our structure at school and academy level if we're to have a future.

If it was down to me i would never have hired him back at the kind of money the WRU offered him (600K per year)......they panicked though because all the revenue is related to Team Wales being competitive which after Pivac we were not. The problem is a top end coach won't solve our problems. I think the WRU and Regional Rugby may have already collapsed the game and we are just going through the motions now before it fully dies.

I think you need to prepare yourself that these losses will come by the truckload even if we hired the best coach in the world. We simply dont have the players at the moment to make us competitive.

I dont disagree with you Gatland on performance should be gone but the problem is I dont even think we have the money required to do it.

At this point I am waiting for the very real scenario where Team Wales can either no longer fill the stadium or charge the massive increased ticket prices they have been charging the last few years. As I said earlier that will almost defo result in a total collapse if say revenue starts dropping by 20-30%. If we drop as much as 40% we can't probably even afford 2 pro teams in wales.

I dont disagree with you but I think the doom loop has already started and it could all be over in the next 5 years. I really hope I'm wrong.........

A doom loop - in relation to the URC, has been on the cards for the Welsh sides for a long time.
There is no salary cap, no away fans and consolidating the top welsh tier into just four sides has never worked. If the game is only viable due to International Test income, then surely a different approach should be considered?
The health of the game with access for all players and fans is paramount and unaccountable elitist structures are completely counter to the Welsh narrative on their national game.

The URC is seen to be successful by those for whom 'it works' and the SA sides have undoubtedly boosted the competition, time will tell how long they stick around with their 12 month season.

I am catching up with an old mate of mine in Dublin in January and he has just stung me for over €90 for a mid tier ticket to see Bath take on a Test team ! If Welsh teams can't compete with that, what are the options?

Almost all the top tiers in Rugby have shown Welsh Regional sides how it should work for years. You dont hold on to star players if the outcome is you cant afford to develop the next generation. I'm all for players earning the maximum they can as careers are short but clubs/regions shouldnt be jeopardizing pathways to keep hold of them which the regional game did in wales for years.

The problem now is that any attempt to fix has arrived to late and they should have done this 6-7 years ago. Now we probably are looking at becoming a tier 2 nation. It's simply a failure at WRU and regional levels and both parties share the same amount of blame.

We're probably looking at a future at this point where all our internationals play overseas and we have no pro rugby in Wales. I did always say the fact the regions and WRU spent so much time fighting each other would likely end up here. It's so stupid as both sides need each other and should have done better working together years ago. I know they are doing better lately but the ship has already sailed at this point.....

Welshmushroom wrote:If it was down to me i would never have hired him back at the kind of money the WRU offered him (600K per year)......they panicked though because all the revenue is related to Team Wales being competitive which after Pivac we were not.  The problem is a top end coach won't solve our problems.  I think the WRU and Regional Rugby may have already collapsed the game and we are just going through the motions now before it fully dies.  

I think you need to prepare yourself that these losses will come by the truckload even if we hired the best coach in the world.  We simply dont have the players at the moment to make us competitive.  

I dont disagree with you Gatland on performance should be gone but the problem is I dont even think we have the money required to do it.  

At this point I am waiting for the very real scenario where Team Wales can either no longer fill the stadium or charge the massive increased ticket prices they have been charging the last few years.  As I said earlier that will almost defo result in a total collapse if say revenue starts dropping by 20-30%.  If we drop as much as 40% we can't probably even afford 2 pro teams in wales.

I dont disagree with you but I think the doom loop has already started and it could all be over in the next 5 years.  I really hope I'm wrong.........

Just goes to show how dull they still are at the WRU. They’re literally worshiping him in spite of everything he’s done and continues to do. I agree with having him back for the World Cup but that should have been it. If you check before and after the World Cup, the record is still poor. You can literally tell the “in Gats we trust” brigade these facts 10 times over in a single day, every day, and they’ll still worship him. It’s like being in the twilight zone except this is all real.

I disagree. I think a better coach could do a lot better, and at least with that you don’t have the risk of people no longer buying Wales tickets. I know I haven’t looked forward to watching Wales in a long time, I can’t be the only one.

The two regions BS needs to stop as well. We need at least four, with adequate coaches and players. Otherwise we’ll just be worse.

And look what Gatland has done again, picked a weak bench and picking Botham at 6. He definitely hasn’t learned from that Argentina game like he claimed, which is more proof he’s deranged. Botham isn’t international standard, he gets picked because he plays for Cardiff. This will be another game that ends terribly for Wales.

Wales team to face Australia
Winnett; Rogers, Llewellyn, B Thomas, Murray; Anscombe, Bevan; G Thomas, Lake (capt), Griffin, Rowlands, Beard, Botham, Morgan, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, N Smith, Assiratti, Tshiunza, Reffell, R Williams, Costelow, James.

Disagree that the pro teams and the WRU share equal blame. The WRU have always put themselves first. It goes back as far as Roger Lewis and has only got worse. All they’ve ever done is hamstrung their own supply chain. They’ve never looked at future planning, they and Gatland just rode the wave of us having a rare load of generational talent.

I had my predictions wrong about what Gatland would do. Didn’t expect him to drop Plumtree and thought he would change the bench a bit. In the end, he hasn’t really changed the 23 a great deal. Two enforced changes, one expected and so one that was a bit of a shock. Bench absolutely offered nothing last week (Morgan aside) and get another go.

Classy of Gatland to stick the boot into Rio Dyer too. Have to question why they selected him tbh, when he’s so off form. Also, if Rogers is so in form and absolutely training the house down, why didn’t Gatland select him last weekend as an outside back option, instead of his genius 6/2 split?

Tom Rogers will likely embarrass himself and Wales again. Poor finisher and tackler, not that fast either. I would at least have Hathaway in, but now I’m thinking it was another cap and run from Gatland, he’s got previous for it.

Have to say I do not agree with the notion that the club structure is the problem therefore the Wales coach shouldn't get any blame.  Yes, the club structure is an issue, but it doesn't mean Gatland gets a free ride.  In any other country that run of losses would be scrutinised and would likely lead to the removal of the head coach.  For all of our club woes, we've actually got much better structures than some of the countries we're losing to.  While not able to compete with the likes of France and Ireland in terms of club funding, our pro club structure has millions per team, has training and conditioning facilities at each of the regions, access to top level testing and sport science support, has academy structures at each, has vibrant regional age grade competitions and structures (e.g. under 11s schools district rugby (DC Thomas Cup), age grade regional cups from U12s upwards (e.g. Dragons cup in Gwent), U15s district, Dewar Shield, college cup, regional academies playing inter-academy competitions, etc.).  Yet we're losing to teams like Fiji and Georgia who don't even have pro club competitions and who knows what sort of youth structures.  Let's not forget that Wales were winning grand slams and reaching world cup semis with the same structures in place a few years ago - i.e. 4 pro teams and the regional academies and school structures below.  If anything, the bit below the pro teams has probably strengthened in that time if anything.

So for me it's perfectly valid to bemoan the club finances/problems AND criticise the performance of the Wales team and its coaches at the same time.  I just don't see the point in persisting  with a coaching team just because other areas of the game in Wales are struggling.  Look at Australia.  Only last year we stuffed them by 40 odd points in the world cup.  Everyone was worried for them and pro rugby in their country and what the future would hold.  Everyone knows they're struggling for money in the pro game, just like in Wales.  But look what a change in coaching team for the national team has done. They looked great against England the other day. We went there in the summer with people expecting some wins yet we lost twice to Aus and scraped a 1 point win vs the Reds. And now people are expecting THEM to give US a hiding at our home. What a turn around in a year.  

The Gatland era is over and we need fresh ideas and move away from a reliance on just one man.  It's not healthy for the future of the game in any country to rely on one person for so long because he'll leave at some point.  And for me that was part of the problem when Pivac came in.  Gatland was so ingrained in the place that any change could not be smooth and we struggled to adapt behind the scenes.  But Gatland will be gone again at some point.  He can't go on forever.  It's either now or in 3 years.  And we'll be back to 'what do we do now Gatland has gone' sort of thinking.  For me we must not allow it to be so much about one person.  In Wales we've somehow let Gatland become bigger than the team.

I genuinely thinks its all over at this point so there is little mileage in attributing blame aside from clearly stating both sides are at fault to different degrees (WRU for not funding the game properly and setting up better pathway systems and Regions for hiring coaches, spending money incorrectly no long term squad planning etc). As I have said the collapse of team Wales will be followed by the death of the regions. Reckon one will go. Then they will cut another. Then when we are down to 2 we probably will simply not have enough space to bring through enough youngsters. Then we probably will see an interim influx overseas players to plug the gaps again followed by no success at club level. At that point we probably wont even be retaining our best players so the overseas rule will need to be scrapped. That will weaken regional rugby further and before you know it virtually become irrelevant.

And that's assuming the WRU finances get so bad they simply cannot support pro rugby at all. If that happens regions will flat out collapse.

On the plus side I guess we wont be alone because Scotland now the new residency rule is in will find it harder to qualify players to scotland so they too may struggle internationally once the current crops retire. They at least will still have a pretty descent team till at least the next World Cup.

I hope I'm proven wrong of course...........but if Welsh rugby has taught me anything probably not.

Well, you knew when Rogers saved the one try, it was just about to be the dam bursting, but I didn’t expect it to be quite so quick.

I do love seeing a lock gallop though.

This could get messy for Wales

They are not at the races at all

Absolutely horrific 22 minutes from wales. 3 tries conceded. Nothing at all created in response. So poor.

Wales losing pretty much every collision and Australia purring with confidence.

Not a good combination.

Well we’ve stemmed the tide briefly. But blinking heck, it looked like we had downed tools for a while.

Not able to watch but I hear it’s not good, and that’s what i expected. The Gatland worshipers will still do what they usually do.

Well to their credit, Wales have pulled themselves back into this one

Wainwright is having a storming game and is leading the charge