Wales International Rugby Summer 23 onwards.

First topic message reminder :

As the pages were going over 20 shortly, I’ve had to start a new thread. This is still the place to discuss the U20s, the women and everything else internationally. Updated RWC 23 squad below.

Forwards (25)

Corey Domachowski (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Kemsley Mathias (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nicky Smith (Ospreys / Gweilch– 42 caps)
Gareth Thomas (Ospreys /Gweilch – 21 caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons / Dregiau– 41 caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets – 33 caps)
Dewi Lake (Ospreys / Gweilch – 8 caps)
Sam Parry (Ospreys / Gweilch – 5 caps)
Keiron Assiratti (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Tomas Francis (Ospreys / Gweilch – 71 caps)
Dillon Lewis (Harlequins – 50 caps)
Henry Thomas (Montpellier – uncapped)
Adam Beard (Ospreys / Gweilch– 46 caps)
Ben Carter (Dragons / Dregiau– 9 caps)
Rhys Davies (Ospreys / Gweilch – 2 caps)
Dafydd Jenkins (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 6 caps)
Will Rowlands (Dragons / Dregiau – 23 caps)
Christ Tshiunza (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 5 caps)
Teddy Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Taine Basham (Dragons / Dregiau – 11 caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 100 caps)
Dan Lydiate (Dragons / Dregiau – 68 caps)
Jac Morgan (Ospreys / Gweilch – 9 caps)
Tommy Reffell (Leicester Tigers / Caerlŷr– 9 caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons / Dregiau – 37 caps)

Backs (22)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets – 67 caps)
Kieran Hardy (Scarlets – 17 caps)
Tomos Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 45 caps)
Gareth Anscombe (unattached – 35 caps)
Dan Biggar (Toulon – 107 caps)
Sam Costelow (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Owen Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – 7 caps)
Mason Grady (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 2 caps)
Max Llewellyn (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw – uncapped)
George North (Ospreys / Gweilch – 113 caps)
Joe Roberts (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens – 27 caps)
Johnny Williams (Scarlets – 5 caps)
Keiran Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – uncapped)
Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 49 caps)
Alex Cuthbert (Ospreys / Gweilch – 57 caps)
Rio Dyer (Dragons / Dregiau – 7 caps)
Cai Evans (Ospreys/ Gweilch – uncapped)
Leigh Halfpenny (unattached – 99 caps)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw– 25 caps)
Tom Rogers (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Liam Williams (Cardiff Rugby/ Caerdydd – 84 caps)

Kingshu wrote:Record 11 losses in a row, cant see that ending with SA next, and away to France first game in 6 nations, then away to Italy is best chance to end it, but I think Italy at home against this Wales side would start favourites, lose that and could end 6nations with record 17 losses in a row. Not a good position to be in, as said previously not sure if change of coach will change much, its Wales under 20s not finishing in top 3 in U20 6 nations since 2017 and being last or 2nd last, the last few years thats lead to Wales reaching this low point, need to address the underage systems to have a sufficent number of quality underage players getting game time for regions and then Wales, before Wales will be a force again.

Definitely agree with you, as it's no secret Wales are struggling at U20 and at the Regions - which they don't seem to be addressing if I'm honest. Disagree on the coach, as new coaches could make this Wales team competitive and would probably pick a better squad for starters. Gatland's selections have been mind-boggling. I'm sure there is a better coach who isn't going to cost 600K a year, maybe 300-400K? The national team brings in money, and people have already stopped watching. Make changes there, but also make changes to the entire structure. It's obvious by now that Walker and Tierney are also not fit for the role.

I must say, I find it bizarre how the simps for Gatland are still out in force saying it's not his fault. Hopefully they go over to NZ with him and don't come back.

I'm hardly a simp by stating the obvious - his payout clause is massive and wont help the WRU financially. If we could get a top grade coach that would be one thing and then I would say yes replace him. But realistically there isnt a coach worth their salt that will take this job. Unless the motivation is purely on money but then we have to dig really deep to make it worthwhile and no doubt offer a long contract to boot as we are not getting anyone on a 2 year deal. This job only has the potential to ruin a head coaches reputation that they no doubt spent a long time building.

We simply dont have the players and I think fans need to accept that right now we are tier 2 at best. I've said the spiral has started and there is no quick fix to stop this.

What I am more interested in right now is what the WRU does to stop the tide that everyone can see is about to hit us. If they dont make some drastic changes right now at age grade & regional level, its going to be the end of welsh rugby. Everyone can see it and if I am being brutally honest I have no faith in the management team at the WRU to even identify let alone fix what clearly is fairly obvious to every welsh fan out there at the moment.

In all honesty the board need clearing out and they actually need to bring in people who know how to turn a union around and actually have good working plans to fix the systemic issues that are blighting welsh rugby. This current bunch have no idea. Almost everything they have suggested the last 12 months from Semi Pro Super Ruby to regional rugby just highlights how poor their ideas actually are.

I think every fan in wales wants to see Wales turn the corner quickly but we have to be realistic. The next 5 years wont matter. But the decisions made today need to clearly be built around bringing us back to elite level and right now I dont think the WRU are making them.

Personally while I accept anther coach might pick different squads, run a different tactical game etc - I dont think even the best can work with the players we have to make us tier 1. I'd much rather see Gats payout money being put towards a extensive U20 project to really make that outfit professional and really push a increase on academy investment and playing numbers.

The real issue is how can we start making better regional teams without investing in overseas players because the current batch at most regions are not good enough at club level let alone international standard. There needs to be a total clear out in squads but we have no welsh talent to fill the gap. Regions will need to be successful in the next 2-3 years and there is no way any changes made to youth rugby will be quick enough for regional rugby. But investing in overseas players isnt really investing in welsh rugby. But I dont see any quick fixes and it is complicated with no clear and obvious pathway to take.

Honestly I'm so dejected at this point I can see them cutting teams and that I think will be a monumental mistake for Welsh rugby landscape and future. I have no faith the decision makers in wales have any clue as to what they are doing let alone actually fixing any of the issues I have outlined.

As I said though I dont want to feel or think like this and I would be more than happy to be proved wrong and a simple coach change will totally change our trajectory. But I suspect things will only get worse.

Do you have information on this pay-out clause WelshMushroom? I'm not sure that we (or anyone else) have seen the ins and outs of the contract? If he resigns then yeah presumably he wouldn't get it. If he's gone based on performance then surely he then wouldn't get it. Again, I don't know what the contract says.

The board could also do with a clear out, in addition to the coaching panel. They aren't mutually exclusive which is what you and others seem to think. Things are continuing to get progressively worse with Gatland staying, so I think the answer is quite obvious - something I've said for a year and only now do you get more people agreeing.

I'm sure these head coaches have similar to a lot of these Manager and Director style contracts in place. Yes they can be removed but there is usually always some kind of security payment that is made to remove them. This isnt just a sport specific thing. A lot of commercial enterprises usually have to give golden handshakes to people when they remove them, even when they are firing them. This isnt just Wales either, England had massive payouts when they culled Eddie for example. Most top tier coaches even when removed make sure they still get a lionshare of their money because given the volatile nature of coaching doesnt always result in next job around the corner. So you can understand why they have their own situations to protect as well.

My issue is paying him 600K to begin with. I dont think anyone in world rugby is worth that to manage a team. We must be paying the most out of any of the current nations for a head coach even England who i think have twice our revenue.....just crazy and shows how desperate the WRU become to try to reverse the Pivac trend but you would have to say was a total waste of money and achieved nothing. My point is why is nobody talking about who's making these sort of decisions and why given all the money the WRU make in turnover (same as the Irish Union), less money going to pro rugby and more seems to be spent on operating costs. I have some serious questions relating on how 2 unions of similar size can have such stark contrast on their situations. Irish rugby is getting far more of its revenue into the pro game and academy systems as well as having simply better pathways. It's not helped that Amateur rugby is still getting handouts at a time when the focus has to be the pro game or the house of cards collapses.

I'm not sure what you're reading but a lot of a people are talking about the WRU board (who make the decisions), we know it was Walker who's responsible for bringing back Gatland permanently on this money. If you missed it then you must be doing it on purpose. It hasn't stopped people from shifting the blame away from Gatland, it's only encouraged it. As I said, all of them should go but especially Gatland and Howley. I've been open in communicating what I think about him mocking the jersey, drawing names out of hat, making us a laughing stock on the world stage. All of that clearly starts and ends with the coach. Those in denial about that are weird fanboys.

Also just off the top of my head, the international coaches in England, France and Japan get more than 600K.

Thats the thing though and where you and I differ. My simple point is at a fundamental level we are failing at a basic level. Facilities in wales are good enough for our youngsters and we are just setting people up to fail across the board with poor coaching and planning.

My assertion is that our U20's should be physically developed to play pro rugby during that period. Regional rugby should be about raising standards to international level or close to so the step us is negligible. One of the reason I believe Ireland have done so well at international rugby is that the drop off from there to Leinster isnt that big. And most of their current success is linked to Leinster even if that does sit well with the other provinces in ireland.

What we currently have is none of these things. I maintain unless we address the fundamentals first we cannot expect to change our status at the top of the game.

I'm not saying Gatland isnt to blame for things like selection but surely if players are not ready for international level at what point do we start looking at the head coaches at regional level who should be preparing guys to be able to step up to international level, and following on from that the U20 head guys who are are supposed to be preparing players for Pro rugby.

I dont think one man is at fault for our current run. Its a combined failure from a whole bunch of people. I've been pretty vocal the last couple of years about the standard of our head coaches at our regions.

Players and coaches are all a factor,  but I don't sense the same level of excitement for a URC game compared to being in Neath or Bridgend on a Saturday afternoon for the original welsh league. Being of a certain vintage, I realise that could be rose tinted but fundamentally there is not the same welsh passion for club rugby anymore. Perhaps the WRU could start there. The URC has been perfect for the Irish structure but a disaster for welsh rugby. The theory being a celtic league would be the stepping stone towards a European competition. It hasn't happened for welsh sides but they still keep plodding along on the same 25 year old theory.

SA realised Super Rugby wasn't working for them and changed their approach and have gone from strength to strength. Ultimately SA will end up with their own league.

Wales should change it up, as the current structure not only isn't working it is slowly weakening the national game.

I dont think you can compare the amateur days with the pro days of the sport. For starters you used to be able to go watch top tier teams like Neath for a fiver. Your paying 4 times that. I think one of the big failures of regional rugby has been not to be the value proposition for a day/night out. It would be one thing if you were offering success, then fair enough but the majority of regional fans already know their sides wont win anything which does not appeal to them to spend money at a time when money is likely tight for a lot of households.

Welshmushroom wrote:I dont think you can compare the amateur days with the pro days of the sport.  For starters you used to be able to go watch top tier teams like Neath for a fiver.  Your paying 4 times that.  I think one of the big failures of regional rugby has been not to be the value proposition for a day/night out.  It would be one thing if you were offering success, then fair enough but the majority of regional fans already know their sides wont win anything which does not appeal to them to spend money at a time when money is likely tight for a lot of households.

If that is the rationale for sticking with the same approach then the only route is a slow ish decline under the current structure which has no salary cap and no away fans and limited access in Wales for two home games a week. It's sad to watch.

I think the other thing that gets brushed under the carpet is the history of rugby in wales. A lot of amateur teams didnt have any other sporting competition in their respective areas. When you look at Pro rugby and where it is played (Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Llanelli) only one of those isnt actually competing with other sports. Cardiff and Swansea for example have an awful lot of sporting options in the cities and I do think they are fighting other sports for fans.

I've always said I would have loved the Dragons to a more central Gwent location to really be able to pull in the rugby history from areas like Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Blackwood, Abergavenny etc. I know Newport has the bigger population but I dont think its where the history of rugby in Gwent comes from. Newport is a total pain to get to if for example your from any of those locations. Its only really regional representation if you can make it accessible to everyone in that area or you end up with just city teams which dont really draw on the heritage side.

Granted I am being a dreamer and this is fanciful at best.

On a side note does anyone think that the NH international schedule on fixtures holds us back as the SH schedules seem to favor them for having a bigger block together with a larger international off season. We Essentially seem quite scattered with game in Mar/Apr, Summer tour in July and Nov internationals. Meanwhile New Zealand would have had July Home Games building into the Aug/Sept championship and a Nov tour. They have a month off in between each block but are essentially together for a sustained block while our schedule is very much scattered. Thoughts?

This from a bbc article pre-World cup.

Welsh Rugby Union boss Nigel Walker has backed Warren Gatland to lead Wales to the 2027 World Cup "whatever happens" at this year's tournament in France.

Gatland's five-year contract has a post-World Cup 2023 clause.

But Walker, who will become WRU director of rugby following the appointment of Abi Tierney as chief executive, does not envisage its use.

He said: "I cannot see any circumstances where we would invoke that clause."

We feel we have one of the best - if not the best - coaches in the world," said Walker.

"The contract was for five years and there is a clause but I cannot see any circumstances whereby we would invoke that.

"If you're going to change the coach then you would do it for the better. But whatever happens in the World Cup, Warren Gatland remains one of the best coaches in the world.

"It's a long-term project and from what I've seen Warren is quite capable of turning around the fortunes of Wales.

"I went to Switzerland to watch Wales train and the transformation in skills, fitness, commitment - all the measures you use - are off the scale. So I'm confident Wales will do well in the World Cup."

NOW WE HAVE A REASON TO INVOKE THE CLAUSE NIGE.

Welshmushroom wrote:Thats the thing though and where you and I differ.  My simple point is at a fundamental level we are failing at a basic level.  Facilities in wales are good enough for our youngsters and we are just setting people up to fail across the board with poor coaching and planning.

My assertion is that our U20's should be physically developed to play pro rugby during that period.  Regional rugby should be about raising standards to international level or close to so the step us is negligible.  One of the reason I believe Ireland have done so well at international rugby is that the drop off from there to Leinster isnt that big.  And most of their current success is linked to Leinster even if that does sit well with the other provinces in ireland.  

What we currently have is none of these things.  I maintain unless we address the fundamentals first we cannot expect to change our status at the top of the game.

I'm not saying Gatland isnt to blame for things like selection but surely if players are not ready for international level at what point do we start looking at the head coaches at regional level who should be preparing guys to be able to step up to international level, and following on from that the U20 head guys who are are supposed to be preparing players for Pro rugby.

I dont think one man is at fault for our current run.  Its a combined failure from a whole bunch of people.  I've been pretty vocal the last couple of years about the standard of our head coaches at our regions.

Okay well I'm a bit confused, as I agree with points you raise and then you agree with mine and not just in here - but then you go onto say it's something else entirely and not the points we agreed on.

The facilities are good enough from what I can tell, some are on par with what's available in Ireland and France. You only have to go out and visit them. I'm old school anyway, so prefer they just get out on the pitch and learn basic skills. The trouble with the U20s set up is that the scouting and coaching is not good enough. We aren't finding enough players and they give the coaching jobs to mates. They can even give them a second go at it as in Byron Haywards case. Leinster and Ireland is unique and something different entirely. We need to find our own model.

We have also discussed how the coaching and perhaps the conditioning isn't good enough at the regions, but that's not the case at every single region, is it? If you don't want to blame Gatland you can also blame Howley - their mind-boggling selections and dinosaur tactics have caused the 11 losses on the bounce - not an opinion, a fact.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Players and coaches are all a factor,  but I don't sense the same level of excitement for a URC game compared to being in Neath or Bridgend on a Saturday afternoon for the original welsh league. Being of a certain vintage, I realise that could be rose tinted but fundamentally there is not the same welsh passion for club rugby anymore. Perhaps the WRU could start there. The URC has been perfect for the Irish structure but a disaster for welsh rugby. The theory being a celtic league would be the stepping stone towards a European competition. It hasn't happened for welsh sides but they still keep plodding along on the same 25 year old theory.

SA realised Super Rugby wasn't working for them and changed their approach and have gone from strength to strength. Ultimately SA will end up with their own league.

Wales should change it up, as the current structure not only isn't working it is slowly weakening the national game.

There's a whole host of fans who can't remember Neath vs Bridgend games... I was enjoying the URC this year and last year actually. International rugby... well I watch other teams where I can, so I can watch some decent international rugby.

Welshmushroom wrote:I think the other thing that gets brushed under the carpet is the history of rugby in wales.  A lot of amateur teams didnt have any other sporting competition in their respective areas.  When you look at Pro rugby and where it is played (Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Llanelli) only one of those isnt actually competing with other sports.  Cardiff and Swansea for example have an awful lot of sporting options in the cities and I do think they are fighting other sports for fans.

I've always said I would have loved the Dragons to a more central Gwent location to really be able to pull in the rugby history from areas like Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Blackwood, Abergavenny etc.  I know Newport has the bigger population but I dont think its where the history of rugby in Gwent comes from.  Newport is a total pain to get to if for example your from any of those locations.  Its only really regional representation if you can make it accessible to everyone in that area or you end up with just city teams which dont really draw on the heritage side.

Granted I am being a dreamer and this is fanciful at best.

On a side note does anyone think that the NH international schedule on fixtures holds us back as the SH schedules seem to favor them for having a bigger block together with a larger international off season.   We Essentially seem quite scattered with game in Mar/Apr, Summer tour in July and Nov internationals.  Meanwhile New Zealand would have had July Home Games building into the Aug/Sept championship and a Nov tour.  They have a month off in between each block but are essentially together for a sustained block while our schedule is very much scattered.  Thoughts?

The home games location has been done to death. In Gwent, Newport is the best location and at a real rugby ground like Rodney Parade. It's too late to change identities, the regions need better funding and to recruit some players from overseas again. Ospreys are taking a somewhat tribalistic approach to the thought of recruiting overseas players into a marquee spot, but that would be great for them if they did. The regions were once moderately successful - the things that didn't effectively change was funding (in some cases it went down) and the hiring of good coaches (WRU encouraged/forced Welsh hires and none of them were any good). Regions were destroyed by amateur coaches and Cardiff were one to never recover, and arguably Scarlets will never recover with the way they're going.

On your side note, people have been crying for a global calendar for years! TV money is preventing it.

Selections for the national side have not been my cup of tea. I dont for example understand if we know we are physically under the pump in the pack why you dont select proper backrow carriers. Playing 2 opensides almost never works for us for starters. Botham is a 7. Reffell is a 7 and so is Morgan. Just pick one of them and leave the others out of the 23. Dozens of guys I think should have been looked at that simply havent been selected. Not to mention none of the young talent I would have fast tracked into international rugby has been looked at.

We dont have any genuine outside centres (Watkins barely qualifies as a rugby player, Llewellyn is a better 12 than 13) and the one guy who pretty much played his whole life as a 13 gets moved to wing. Just leave him at 13, let him learn how to defend internationally. Then in about a couple of season you will have a good talent on your hands. I would have also looked at Macs Page this Autumn mainly because we are thread bare at 13.

There are just so many areas like that I would have gone a totally different way on. But that said the major problem I dont think anyone can solve is we just dont have a credible tight five. And without that everything else is irrelevant as you wont beat the best sides in the world without that and there is no quick solution to fixing it either as there no options around for us in that department.

To be honest I've no idea why the Quinell family wasnt forced to have 10-20 kids each and started a eugenics dynasty for us 20 years ago. At least we would have a pack now

mikey_dragon wrote:

The home games location has been done to death. In Gwent, Newport is the best location and at a real rugby ground like Rodney Parade. It's too late to change identities, the regions need better funding and to recruit some players from overseas again.

i did say it was fanciful and me being a dreamer so totally unrealistic. I just know dozens of guys who are all Gwent proud rugby playing lads that will likely never attend RP and the primary reason is not because they wouldnt love to go watch a game of rugby but mostly because it is a real pain to get to especially if say your taking kids to the ground and none of them fancy trecking that far. I just hear this a lot is all im saying and its a shame.

Welshmushroom wrote:Selections for the national side have not been my cup of tea.  I dont for example understand if we know we are physically under the pump in the pack why you dont select proper backrow carriers.  Playing 2 opensides almost never works for us for starters.  Botham is a 7. Reffell is a 7 and so is Morgan.  Just pick one of them and leave the others out of the 23.  Dozens of guys I think should have been looked at that simply havent been selected.  Not to mention none of the young talent I would have fast tracked into international rugby has been looked at.

We dont have any genuine outside centres (Watkins barely qualifies as a rugby player, Llewellyn is a better 12 than 13) and the one guy who pretty much played his whole life as a 13 gets moved to wing.  Just leave him at 13, let him learn how to defend internationally.  Then in about a couple of season you will have a good talent on your hands.  I would have also looked at Macs Page this Autumn mainly because we are thread bare at 13.  

There are just so many areas like that I would have gone a totally different way on.  But that said the major problem I dont think anyone can solve is we just dont have a credible tight five.  And without that everything else is irrelevant as you wont beat the best sides in the world without that and there is no quick solution to fixing it either as there no options around for us in that department.

To be honest I've no idea why the Quinell family wasnt forced to have 10-20 kids each and started a eugenics dynasty for us 20 years ago.  At least we would have a pack now  

Been banging that drum for ages. It was out of date long before Gatland did at the world cup. Said he learnt from it but still does it, picked Botham (a 7 as you say) and he plays poorly as usual. Back-rows are now made up of lock-hybrids with a big carrier at 7 or 8 - this is where we should have utilised Ratti over McKenzie who now can't even get in the Cardiff team. Alex Mann, average player and another 7. At least go for Basham who offers a carrying threat from 7 and 8, despite not being massive. Even Wainwright is a 7... I'm starting to doubt Plumtree as well - whilst he is a very skilful player I think he's too soft, so we still need to convert one of our locks IMO. RE the open-sides, I also said we have too many fetchers. We need to stick with one, and give someone else a chance, just to please everyone. I would still consider Young and maybe Dan Thomas as I feel they deserve it.

You're talking about Grady I think but yeah, I see him as a 13 or wing. It's on him to improve his defence as I'm sure Cardiff and others have mentioned it. Page looks like he could be a great player but he's small, so he would need to be super solid to make the cut, probably needs to be tougher than O'Driscoll given how big the centres are now.

I think with the right coaches our front 5 would be good, but it require a few personnel changes too. The players are there but they've been injured, or just ignored by Gatland.

Some guys I think who could come in and potentially become regulars in the 23; Rhys Carre, Sam Parry, Brodie Coghlan, James Fender, Rhys Davies, James Ratti, Dafydd Jenkins, Shane Lewis-Hughes, Taine Basham, Thomas Young, Macs Page, Nye Thomas (we need a 9), Josh Adams, Thomas Francis.

Yep, I said Francis. Who do they replace? I think that's obvious by now... It seems Archie Griffin is coming good but he needs to find a club team where he can become a regular.

Steve Tandy 3/1

Ronan O'Gara 5/1

Brad Mooar 8/1

Jonathan Humphreys 8/1

O'Gara has a contract to 2027 and said as recently as the start of the month he wants to carry on to the end of his contract and then look at other opportunities.

That's an uninspiring list.

Why on earth would O'Gara given up what he has going in France for the sh*tshow that is Wales?! Plus, as Sam says he's been interviewed recently and has stated his kids are settled (3 out of 4 in schools education there) and he wants to see out the end of his contract.

I might consider Tandy. Possibly Mooar who had a decent spell with Scarlets (from memory). Jonathan Humphreys can jog on! He's the current forwards coach and our forwards have been dominated in nearly every game since he's come back in!

Springbok team to face Wales in Cardiff:

15 – Aphelele Fassi (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 10 caps, 30 points (6t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Suntory Sungoliath) – 39 caps, 111 points (18t, 3c, 5p)
13 – Jesse Kriel (Canon Eagles) – 78 caps, 90 points (18t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 86 caps, 55 points (11t)
11 – Kurt-Lee Arendse (Vodacom Bulls) – 23 caps, 85 points (17t)
10 – Jordan Hendrikse (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 1 cap, 7 pts (2c, 1p)
9 – Jaden Hendrikse (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 19 caps, 19 pts (2t, 3c, 1p)

8 – Jasper Wiese (Urayasu D-Rocks) – 33 caps, 10 points (2t)
7 – Elrigh Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 12 caps, 0 points
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 91 caps, 60 points (12t)
5 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 77 caps, 15 points (3t)
4 – Jean Kleyn (Munster) – 7 caps, 0 pts (Ireland 5 caps)
3 – Thomas du Toit (Bath) – 22 caps, 5 pts (1t)
2 – Johan Grobbelaar (Vodacom Bulls) – 2 caps, 0 points
1 – Ox Nche (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 39 caps, 0 points

Replacements:

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 75 caps, 105 points (21t)
17 – Gerhard Steenekamp (Vodacom Bulls) – 10 caps, 0 points
18 – Vincent Koch (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 60 caps, 0 points
19 – Eben Etzebeth (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 130 caps, 30 points (6t)
20 – RG Snyman (Leinster) – 39 caps, 10 points (2t)
21 – Cameron Hanekom (Vodacom Bulls) - uncapped
22 – Cobus Reinach (Montpellier) – 38 caps, 70 pts (14t)
23 – Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers) – 79 caps, 772 points (7t, 109c, 168p, 5dg)

Interesting selections. Seems Rassie is experimenting with the locking pair, back row and 9/10 combo's here

I'm hoping some new combinations might make the Boks a bit less well oiled and more prone to mistakes! That way we might be able to keep the score down to something more respectable!

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:I'm hoping some new combinations might make the Boks a bit less well oiled and more prone to mistakes!  That way we might be able to keep the score down to something more respectable!  

Rassie has been mixing and matching the side all year. He's developed some incredible depth in the South African squad and they've got a couple of different variations on their style as well. Rassie might be a bit out there but he's done a great job.

Old Man wrote:Interesting selections. Seems Rassie is experimenting with the locking pair, back row and 9/10 combo's here

Look at the bomb squad though... South Africa by 90. Hanekom to make his debut against Wales!

Kingshu wrote:Steve Tandy 3/1

Ronan O'Gara 5/1

Brad Mooar 8/1

Jonathan Humphreys 8/1

Realistically, none of them are in with a shout. I wouldn't have Tandy or Mooar has head coach either, but maybe as assistants. Michael Cheika is one possible candidate.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:I'm hoping some new combinations might make the Boks a bit less well oiled and more prone to mistakes!  That way we might be able to keep the score down to something more respectable!  

To be brutally honest we haven't been well oiled the whole year. The selection changes from one game to the next was out of this world. 50 players used this year before this match, I know Jordan hasn't played this year so far, nor Jean Kleyn by memory, so we are pulling towards 52/53 players for the season.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Steve Tandy 3/1

Ronan O'Gara 5/1

Brad Mooar 8/1

Jonathan Humphreys 8/1

Realistically, none of them are in with a shout. I wouldn't have Tandy or Mooar has head coach either, but maybe as assistants. Michael Cheika is one possible candidate.

Keep your hands off!

I'm not sure he's going to be in the northern hemisphere for the long term. He's after a job in the NRL back in Australia. He might come in and do a steadying job ready to hand over to someone else. It's what he's supposed to be doing at Tigers though Tigers fans are hoping he's going to stay more than the one initial one year he's signed for.

Wales team:

15. Blair Murray (Scarlets – 2 caps)
14. Tom Rogers (Scarlets – 5 caps)
13. Max Llewellyn (Gloucester Rugby – 4 caps)
12. Ben Thomas (Cardiff Rugby – 6 caps)
11. Rio Dyer (Dragons – 22 caps)
10. Sam Costelow (Scarlets – 17 caps)
9. Ellis Bevan (Cardiff Rugby – 5 caps)
1. Gareth Thomas (Ospreys – 35 caps)
2. Dewi Lake (Ospreys – 17 caps) captain
3. Archie Griffin (Bath Rugby – 5 caps)
4. Will Rowlands (Racing 92 – 35 caps)
5. Christ Tshiunza (Exeter Chiefs – 14 caps)
6. James Botham (Cardiff Rugby – 15 caps)
7. Jac Morgan (Ospreys – 17 caps)
8. Taine Plumtree (Scarlets – 6 caps)

Replacements / Eilyddion

16. Ryan Elias (Scarlets – 43 caps)
17. Nicky Smith (Leicester Tigers – 48 caps)
18. Keiron Assiratti (Cardiff Rugby – 9 caps)
19. Freddie Thomas (Gloucester Rugby – uncapped / heb gap)
20. Tommy Reffell (Leicester Tigers – 22 caps)
21. Rhodri Williams (Dragons – 4 caps)
22. Eddie James (Scarlets – 2 caps)
23. Josh Hathaway (Gloucester Rugby – 1 cap)

That's a really inexperienced back line.  Like lambs to the slaughter.  

Has he dropped Winnett? Blair to 15. Has he played there much? Costelow at 10 - some nice touches the other day but he seems like a confidence player and I feel he's low on confidence.

Gone for a bit of size in the backrow.  No Wainwright?  Was he injured?  Usually one of our better players.  Tshiunza at lock is a worry.  He's seemed quite underpowered so far.

Gonna be a hiding!

Shocking calls and shocking players as per usual. SA by 70.

Looking at those lie-ups it ain't going to be pretty foe Wales.

Am I being too cynical in thinking Gatland is trying to force the WRU's hand to collect a pay-off?

Two opensides again in the starter. This never works. I cant even remember the last time 2 opensides resulted in a international win for any top end nation.

So many strange calls. If the plan was to field a mobile pack to run the legs of them then I really dont understand some of the backs selection.

I dont think it made a difference in any case - SA were always winning this but now we can probably add another 20-30 points on the scoreline. This one will be ugly i think.

Not sure this will be a rout as everyone expects. New 9/10 combo might take time to settle, whilst the rest of the back line is experienced and on form, the question remains how will they link with Jrdan Hendrickse who is only playing his second test match.

Old Man wrote:Not sure this will be a rout as everyone expects. New 9/10 combo might take time to settle, whilst the rest of the back line is experienced and on form, the question remains how will they link with Jrdan Hendrickse who is only playing his second test match.

Old Man, you are far too polite! As someone above said (was it you?), SA have been experimenting a lot this season and so even though this is much changed there is a lot of experience everywhere. You only have 1 guy in the backs with really low caps (Hendrikse). Wales have 5 in the back with 6 caps or fewer. Costelow and Rio Dyer are the most experienced backs, and with 17 and 22 caps. And Costelow looks to be really struggling at International level. Kinda feel sorry for him every time I see him run out. The Wales backs on the bench have a total of 7 caps between them! And then of course SA have the bomb squad in the forwards. Our bomb squad wouldn't even get in the Springboks A team! So this is completely mismatched and I cannot see how we will be able to keep this under 50 points. A loser mentality, perhaps. But I've experienced enough poor Wales teams over the years. Nothing short of a miracle will keep us close in this game. Even sendings off have not helped us recently!

Old Man wrote:Not sure this will be a rout as everyone expects. New 9/10 combo might take time to settle, whilst the rest of the back line is experienced and on form, the question remains how will they link with Jrdan Hendrickse who is only playing his second test match.

I wish you'd stop being so humble!

Welshmushroom wrote:Two opensides again in the starter.  This never works.  I cant even remember the last time 2 opensides resulted in a international win for any top end nation.

So many strange calls.  If the plan was to field a mobile pack to run the legs of them then I really dont understand some of the backs selection.

I dont think it made a difference in any case - SA were always winning this but now we can probably add another 20-30 points on the scoreline.  This one will be ugly i think.

The Wallabies popularised the 2 opensides, but they stopped using it a long time ago, realising the game had moved on.

I'm almost certain there has never been a team to run the legs off the Springboks, maybe some of the great All Blacks teams have done, but not recently. The big guys in the Boks team will run and smash into you all day, and come back for seconds. He continues to handicap himself with bizarre squad selections, which is why he has no choice but to persist with Elias and Costelow (just 2 examples), although that doesn't excuse him. We will continue to see more turn away from the game.

TAFKA and Mikey Dragon, it isn't about being humble, the reality is expectations rarely turn out to the extremes we expect. Yes I agree that the Boks are overwelming favourites, and yes if they do hit 95% of their ability it can be bad for Wales.

But the Boks have not performed at that level the whole season. Ifyou add the new combinations, and the fact that it is end of season, players must be tired, and just want to get home. Plus possibly a tad over confident, I very much doubt they will have the motivation and focus to go out and annihilate Wales.

The Welsh players might just reckon WTH, we have nothing to lose

Old Man wrote:TAFKA and Mikey Dragon, it isn't about being humble, the reality is expectations rarely turn out to the extremes we expect. Yes I agree that the Boks are overwelming favourites, and yes if they do hit 95% of their ability it can be bad for Wales.

But the Boks have not performed at that level the whole season. Ifyou add the new combinations, and the fact that it is end of season, players must be tired, and just want to get home. Plus possibly a tad over confident, I very much doubt they will have the motivation and focus to go out and annihilate Wales.

The Welsh players might just reckon WTH, we have nothing to lose

They won't need to be looking to annihilate us, that's the problem. I doubt the Wallabies were hell bent on racking up as many points as possible last week either, they just found it easier to score than it should have been.

I do think a couple of the Cardiff players, Winnett and Ben Thomas, have been considerably overhyped, but having said that, it's not like we've got a load of talented players queueing up behind them. That's just where we are at the moment. It can't possibly be the Union's fault that the supply chain isn't working

Looks like it’ll get ugly for Wales. Five of that backline have the same number of caps combined as Dyer….and I still think of Dyer as a newish player!

Also, this is the last game for South Africa. They don’t need to save themselves for Ireland or France next week, they can just leave everything out on the field and end the year in style.

If Wales keep it within 40, they’ll have done well.

Duty281 wrote:Looks like it’ll get ugly for Wales. Five of that backline have the same number of caps combined as Dyer….and I still think of Dyer as a newish player!

Also, this is the last game for South Africa. They don’t need to save themselves for Ireland or France next week, they can just leave everything out on the field and end the year in style.

If Wales keep it within 40, they’ll have done well.

Apart from the fact their club season is very much ongoing?

Rassie looks to be experimenting with the option of a high pace 10 combination. Williams and Libbok last week and now a different combination this week. Reinach and Pollard are on the bench if he wants to revert to type and manage the game out. The Boks have got good options and will switch style to suit them in this one. A tough shifting target for a Welsh team struggling to find their own way to play.