England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again.....

Strong words again from Borthwick. He clearly drives the improvements week on week that we're seeing. And yes just take the opportunities we're creating and we're away.

mikey_dragon wrote:Would love to see a coaching team like Andy Farrell and ROG coach Wales after the world cup. England can keep Borthwick.

But you know it is going to be Gats!

BigGee wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Would love to see a coaching team like Andy Farrell and ROG coach Wales after the world cup. England can keep Borthwick.

But you know it is going to be Gats!

Yeah, according to Nigel Walker. His statement now looks even worse after today's drubbing.

Yoda wrote:Well that was pants.

In order of s**tness.
1. Billy V
2. England's attack
3. The ref and officiating team (not for the red as that was more of a red than Farrell's)
4. Stuart and steward double act rotating door defence.

How can it be 2023 and forward passes still aren't picked up for two tries? Admittedly it would have made little difference but blimey really poor.

Sorry but didn't see any progression and are really fearful for next week, it could well be our first defeat by Fiji.

Exactly - what exactly was the TMO doing for both of those?

Not sure where England go from here
Third game in row and no improvement.

Toothless in attack, far too much kicking. Again

If opposition are coping with high balls repeatedly, change the effing tactic!

Depressing.

As for red looked like Porter ducked into tackle but whatever.

On the plus side when England get knocked out we can relax for the rest of the WC ...

mountain man wrote:Not sure where England go from here
Third game in row and no improvement.

Toothless in attack, far too much kicking. Again

If opposition are coping with high balls repeatedly, change the effing tactic!

Depressing.

As for red looked like Porter ducked into tackle but whatever.

Doesn't matter. No use of the right arm no mitigation be applied.

mountain man wrote:Not sure where England go from here
Third game in row and no improvement.

Toothless in attack, far too much kicking. Again

If opposition are coping with high balls repeatedly, change the effing tactic!

Depressing.

As for red looked like Porter ducked into tackle but whatever.

I agree Porter was low but the same was definitely true for the red Aki got v England a few years back for a tackle on Billy V and that wasnt overturned.

There's no way it's getting overturned after the Farrell saga, even if there was mitigation (and not saying there was) ...

Billy red irrelevant to be honest regarding England performance.
They were awful again

Endless box kicking. Give me strength.
Usual errors when any attacking move goes beyond 2 passes.
Poor defence. Stuart not good enough. Steward another going backwards.
Aki far more of a threat than Manu these days.
Good to see Cheesum back I suppose.

Both tackles Farrell and BV were red cards.

You can't but feel though that all this noise is not doing England any favours and is stopping them from focusing on their rugby, which on current form, they seriously need to do!

Collapse2005 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Not sure where England go from here
Third game in row and no improvement.

Toothless in attack, far too much kicking. Again

If opposition are coping with high balls repeatedly, change the effing tactic!

Depressing.

As for red looked like Porter ducked into tackle but whatever.

I agree Porter was low but the same was definitely true for the red Aki got v England a few years back for a tackle on Billy V and that wasnt overturned.

But he didn't have his arms extended and wasn't low enough to begin with. They have been told this many times, yet here we are again.

mountain man wrote:Billy red irrelevant to be honest regarding England performance.
They were awful again

Endless box kicking. Give me strength.
Usual errors when any attacking move goes beyond 2 passes.
Poor defence. Stuart not good enough. Steward another going backwards.
Aki far more of a threat than Manu these days.
Good to see Cheesum back I suppose.

Agreed, Freddie Stewart has been found out now and offers so little other than fielding high balls. Stuart looks and plays like a pastie, half the player he was at wasps. The only players who looked bothered and had some nice touches were Theo Dan, Joe marchant, Watson, chessum, genge, Lawes and earl.

Heaf wrote:On the plus side when England get knocked out we can relax for the rest of the WC ...

I'm just not getting any sense of what we are trying to achieve, we've been like a big blancmange waiting to get beaten up. If the plan is to box kick/ up-and-under the merde out of it, why are they kicking it so far? And why is nobody competing for it? If the plan is to play off the set piece, why does second phase look so poor? Why are they blowing out of their arses after fifteen minutes? Why are we persisting with so many players who have been awful for at least two years? Why does the defence look so poor? POM walked through it like he was Christian Cullen!

Yoda wrote:

mountain man wrote:Billy red irrelevant to be honest regarding England performance.
They were awful again

Endless box kicking. Give me strength.
Usual errors when any attacking move goes beyond 2 passes.
Poor defence. Stuart not good enough. Steward another going backwards.
Aki far more of a threat than Manu these days.
Good to see Cheesum back I suppose.

Agreed, Freddie Stewart has been found out now and offers so little other than fielding high balls. Stuart looks and plays like a pastie, half the player he was at wasps. The only players who looked bothered and had some nice touches were Theo Dan, Joe marchant, Watson, chessum, genge, Lawes and earl.

Who's Freddie Stewart?

Steward the England fullback led the team in defenders beaten with 4. No Irish player beat more defenders than 4. Yet all he can do is field high balls right.

Cumbrian wrote:

Heaf wrote:On the plus side when England get knocked out we can relax for the rest of the WC ...

I'm just not getting any sense of what we are trying to achieve, we've been like a big blancmange waiting to get beaten up.   If the plan is to box kick/ up-and-under the merde out of it, why are they kicking it so far? And why is nobody competing for it?  If the plan is to play off the set piece, why does second phase look so poor?  Why are they blowing out of their arses after fifteen minutes?  Why are we persisting with so many players who have been awful for at least two years? Why does the defence look so poor? POM walked through it like he was Christian Cullen!

After the first try which was a misread between Genge and Stuart we defended pretty well. We fouled up the Irish lineout. Forced them to go wide in order to find space, their forwards made very little ground for most the game. There's still a lot to do with the defence but it's looking in better shape than it has been. Ireland are the number 1 ranked team and we were playing mostly their first choice side.

I've looked at the missed touch kick again now and can't for the life of me work out how the Irish player wasn't deemed to have touched it down.

After he knocked it back it was heading towards the deadball line at a rate of knots and he couldn't have stopped it without exerting some downward pressure.

The only way play should have been allowed to go on would have been if he stopped it with his foot or picked it up cleanly without stopping it with his hands first, unless I'm missing something?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Heaf wrote:On the plus side when England get knocked out we can relax for the rest of the WC ...

I'm just not getting any sense of what we are trying to achieve, we've been like a big blancmange waiting to get beaten up.   If the plan is to box kick/ up-and-under the merde out of it, why are they kicking it so far? And why is nobody competing for it?  If the plan is to play off the set piece, why does second phase look so poor?  Why are they blowing out of their arses after fifteen minutes?  Why are we persisting with so many players who have been awful for at least two years? Why does the defence look so poor? POM walked through it like he was Christian Cullen!

After the first try which was a misread between Genge and Stuart we defended pretty well. We fouled up the Irish lineout. Forced them to go wide in order to find space, their forwards made very little ground for most the game. There's still a lot to do with the defence but it's looking in better shape than it has been. Ireland are the number 1 ranked team and we were playing mostly their first choice side.

We also shipped five tries against a team who haven't played together in months. The POM try was just a flippant example. You can't possibly be satisfied with the way we defended in that match?

Sorry but I can't see any positives from the three games so far

England look clueless. Ireland will only get better with more game time, Eng look like getting worse.

Not sure whoever is picked will make much difference.

Rebuild needed during next RWC cycle.

Cumbrian wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Heaf wrote:On the plus side when England get knocked out we can relax for the rest of the WC ...

I'm just not getting any sense of what we are trying to achieve, we've been like a big blancmange waiting to get beaten up.   If the plan is to box kick/ up-and-under the merde out of it, why are they kicking it so far? And why is nobody competing for it?  If the plan is to play off the set piece, why does second phase look so poor?  Why are they blowing out of their arses after fifteen minutes?  Why are we persisting with so many players who have been awful for at least two years? Why does the defence look so poor? POM walked through it like he was Christian Cullen!

After the first try which was a misread between Genge and Stuart we defended pretty well. We fouled up the Irish lineout. Forced them to go wide in order to find space, their forwards made very little ground for most the game. There's still a lot to do with the defence but it's looking in better shape than it has been. Ireland are the number 1 ranked team and we were playing mostly their first choice side.

We also shipped five tries against a team who haven't played together in months.  The POM try was just a flippant example.   You can't possibly be satisfied with the way we defended in that match?

5th August doesn't seem that long ago tbf

I'm going on the commentary line (haven't really followed Ireland), the narrative was that this team hasn't really played together properly in ages.  I just think that if we're patting ourselves on keeping them down to five tries (could easily have been more) then we might as well just give up.

I think the last England back to score a try was Steward in the French debacle at Twickenham.

Our back line is hopeless. Perhaps the team should "do a 2007" as what's being coached is clearly garbage.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mountain man wrote:Billy red irrelevant to be honest regarding England performance.
They were awful again

Endless box kicking. Give me strength.
Usual errors when any attacking move goes beyond 2 passes.
Poor defence. Stuart not good enough. Steward another going backwards.
Aki far more of a threat than Manu these days.
Good to see Cheesum back I suppose.

Agreed, Freddie Stewart has been found out now and offers so little other than fielding high balls. Stuart looks and plays like a pastie, half the player he was at wasps. The only players who looked bothered and had some nice touches were Theo Dan, Joe marchant, Watson, chessum, genge, Lawes and earl.

Who's Freddie Stewart?

Steward the England fullback led the team in defenders beaten with 4. No Irish player beat more defenders than 4. Yet all he can do is field high balls right.

Still wasn't very good, sorry but his defence like last week was poor. He's like a supertanker trying to turn. I'm assuming you're a tigers fan.

Cumbrian wrote:I'm going on the commentary line (haven't really followed Ireland), the narrative was that this team hasn't really played together properly in ages.  I just think that if we're patting ourselves on keeping them down to five tries (could easily have been more) then we might as well just give up.

Yep. Dreadful yet again. Wasn't the 40 point hammering some predicted but might as well have been
Watching France and even Fiji the difference in attacking ability is massive.

Yoda wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mountain man wrote:Billy red irrelevant to be honest regarding England performance.
They were awful again

Endless box kicking. Give me strength.
Usual errors when any attacking move goes beyond 2 passes.
Poor defence. Stuart not good enough. Steward another going backwards.
Aki far more of a threat than Manu these days.
Good to see Cheesum back I suppose.

Agreed, Freddie Stewart has been found out now and offers so little other than fielding high balls. Stuart looks and plays like a pastie, half the player he was at wasps. The only players who looked bothered and had some nice touches were Theo Dan, Joe marchant, Watson, chessum, genge, Lawes and earl.

Who's Freddie Stewart?

Steward the England fullback led the team in defenders beaten with 4. No Irish player beat more defenders than 4. Yet all he can do is field high balls right.

Still wasn't very good, sorry but his defence like last week was poor. He's like a supertanker trying to turn. I'm assuming you're a tigers fan.

His defence was good outside of the wide channels where he's got the glaring weakness. Unfortunately blokes that are 6ft5 and nearly 16 stone don't tend to be that nimble. With 15m of space to cover across he's always likely to struggle, most defenders do in that situation. Chase to fast and you're always likely to get stepped, chase to slow and the attacker has the opportunity to pin their ears back and go for the corner. Leinster and Ireland use the tactic a fair bit, isolate a defender in a cover position Vs one of your quicker backs. I would like to see him offer the outside a bit more then back using his size to force them into touch but I'm guessing he considers that a bit risky as he knows he's not the quickest and that tactic can leave you open to being done for pace.

The big cut out pass/kick pass was used for three of their five tries. Care being to slow to get across to Earls for the other. Sinfield defences do tend to be quite narrow. It's something England are going to need to progress because Argentina have some very good outside backs and we don't want them to have space to work in (they can do plenty of damage without space).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Strong words again from Borthwick. He clearly drives the improvements week on week that we're seeing. And yes just take the opportunities we're creating and we're away.

The saying there's a village missing its idiot springs to mind.

Sharkey06 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Strong words again from Borthwick. He clearly drives the improvements week on week that we're seeing. And yes just take the opportunities we're creating and we're away.

The saying there's a village missing its idiot springs to mind.

That's a bit harsh on the idiot!

Zero positives as everyone says. It does not matter who plays at 10 when the game plan is so blo0dy limited. The only silver lining maybe that when Billy gets a ban we have to play someone else! I would love to see Earls with Curry/Willis alongside Lawes and that would be an improvement. Steward offers nothing and I would like to see Malins there. Sinckler to replace Stuart who is awful (and a few matches ago I wanted Stuart to replace Sickler as he was also awful).

TBH heaven help us. Sack Borthers post the RWC and see who we can get in to lift the whole environment.

nlpnlp wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Strong words again from Borthwick. He clearly drives the improvements week on week that we're seeing. And yes just take the opportunities we're creating and we're away.

The saying there's a village missing its idiot springs to mind.

That's a bit harsh on the idiot!

Wow. Don't be so hard on yourself sharkey.

Fiji next week, think we may see some more of the 2nd string playing for bench spots so really do fear for them. It's been quite a while since I've felt this confident going into a WC, was a bit doubtful that Borthwick would succeed so quickly following the disaster of Jones but he hasn't really changed the style, game plan or players which has been really positive for continuity. I'm hoping the thoughts of introducing fresh blood is misfounded post WC as how can he possibly hope to recreate this team while maintaining this streak.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yoda wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mountain man wrote:Billy red irrelevant to be honest regarding England performance.
They were awful again

Endless box kicking. Give me strength.
Usual errors when any attacking move goes beyond 2 passes.
Poor defence. Stuart not good enough. Steward another going backwards.
Aki far more of a threat than Manu these days.
Good to see Cheesum back I suppose.

Agreed, Freddie Stewart has been found out now and offers so little other than fielding high balls. Stuart looks and plays like a pastie, half the player he was at wasps. The only players who looked bothered and had some nice touches were Theo Dan, Joe marchant, Watson, chessum, genge, Lawes and earl.

Who's Freddie Stewart?

Steward the England fullback led the team in defenders beaten with 4. No Irish player beat more defenders than 4. Yet all he can do is field high balls right.

Still wasn't very good, sorry but his defence like last week was poor. He's like a supertanker trying to turn. I'm assuming you're a tigers fan.

His defence was good outside of the wide channels where he's got the glaring weakness. Unfortunately blokes that are 6ft5 and nearly 16 stone don't tend to be that nimble. With 15m of space to cover across he's always likely to struggle, most defenders do in that situation. Chase to fast and you're always likely to get stepped, chase to slow and the attacker has the opportunity to pin their ears back and go for the corner. Leinster and Ireland use the tactic a fair bit, isolate a defender in a cover position Vs one of your quicker backs. I would like to see him offer the outside a bit more then back using his size to force them into touch but I'm guessing he considers that a bit risky as he knows he's not the quickest and that tactic can leave you open to being done for pace.

The big cut out pass/kick pass was used for three of their five tries. Care being to slow to get across to Earls for the other. Sinfield defences do tend to be quite narrow. It's something England are going to need to progress because Argentina have some very good outside backs and we don't want them to have space to work in (they can do plenty of damage without space).

I really don't think this is the game to try and defend Steward as he was terrible. Shown up multiple times in defence (directly responsible for 2 tries) and offered nothing in attack.....he's just so slow and ponderous, he's just not an international level player, you need more.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yoda wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mountain man wrote:Billy red irrelevant to be honest regarding England performance.
They were awful again

Endless box kicking. Give me strength.
Usual errors when any attacking move goes beyond 2 passes.
Poor defence. Stuart not good enough. Steward another going backwards.
Aki far more of a threat than Manu these days.
Good to see Cheesum back I suppose.

Agreed, Freddie Stewart has been found out now and offers so little other than fielding high balls. Stuart looks and plays like a pastie, half the player he was at wasps. The only players who looked bothered and had some nice touches were Theo Dan, Joe marchant, Watson, chessum, genge, Lawes and earl.

Who's Freddie Stewart?

Steward the England fullback led the team in defenders beaten with 4. No Irish player beat more defenders than 4. Yet all he can do is field high balls right.

Still wasn't very good, sorry but his defence like last week was poor. He's like a supertanker trying to turn. I'm assuming you're a tigers fan.

His defence was good outside of the wide channels where he's got the glaring weakness. Unfortunately blokes that are 6ft5 and nearly 16 stone don't tend to be that nimble. With 15m of space to cover across he's always likely to struggle, most defenders do in that situation. Chase to fast and you're always likely to get stepped, chase to slow and the attacker has the opportunity to pin their ears back and go for the corner. Leinster and Ireland use the tactic a fair bit, isolate a defender in a cover position Vs one of your quicker backs. I would like to see him offer the outside a bit more then back using his size to force them into touch but I'm guessing he considers that a bit risky as he knows he's not the quickest and that tactic can leave you open to being done for pace.

The big cut out pass/kick pass was used for three of their five tries. Care being to slow to get across to Earls for the other. Sinfield defences do tend to be quite narrow. It's something England are going to need to progress because Argentina have some very good outside backs and we don't want them to have space to work in (they can do plenty of damage without space).

I really don't think this is the game to try and defend Steward as he was terrible. Shown up multiple times in defence (directly responsible for 2 tries) and offered nothing in attack.....he's just so slow and ponderous, he's just not an international level player, you need more.

Hes there learning from the best though. You can see signs that from his early caps where we were all a bit unsure following having Daly there to now that it's chalk and cheese. Under Borthwick I think that trajectory will continue for his and the majority of his teammates.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fiji next week, think we may see some more of the 2nd string playing for bench spots so really do fear for them. It's been quite a while since I've felt this confident going into a WC, was a bit doubtful that Borthwick would succeed so quickly following the disaster of Jones but he hasn't really changed the style, game plan or players which has been really positive for continuity. I'm hoping the thoughts of introducing fresh blood is misfounded post WC as how can he possibly hope to recreate this team while maintaining this streak.

I love your commitment, I didn't think it would last.
Well it's either commitment or this England team have broken you.
So keep it up, or get well soon.

Simple fact is England just aren't good enough. Maybe we're expecting too much.

The nigh on "world class" players whatever that is are nowhere near that standard anymore. Billy, Youngs, Manu, Marler etc all nowhere near players they once were. Likewise the newer ones like Itoje.

Steward I've always defended but he offers little to a modern day attack that needs to break line and run into space. Hence I cannot unerstand why another not tried there. He's still a very good player but I don't know, looks less effective than he was. A symptom of entire team though.

Maybe it's Borthwick but then again Eng were awful last couple years under Jones.

The heady combination of seemingly dull, ineffective coaching coupled with what looks like disinterested players on a downward trajectory.

mountain man wrote:Simple fact is England just aren't good enough. Maybe we're expecting too much.

The nigh on "world class" players whatever that is are nowhere near that standard anymore. Billy, Youngs, Manu, Marler etc all nowhere near players they once were. Likewise the newer ones like Itoje.

Steward I've always defended but he offers little to a modern day attack that needs to break line and run into space. Hence I cannot unerstand why another not tried there. He's still a very good player but I don't know, looks less effective than he was. A symptom of entire team though.

Maybe it's Borthwick but then again Eng were awful last couple years under Jones.

The heady combination of seemingly dull, ineffective coaching coupled with what looks like disinterested players on a downward trajectory.

Summed up quite nicely now to find another distraction for sept and October. Looks like my football team saints are picking up having been relegated.

How can you say this is ineffective coaching? Hand picked by the rfu and by Borthwick himself, during the warm ups we're just playing with fitness and new combos. Yes the team will get better but you've got to enjoy the ride too mm. Yes the result fell the wrong yesterday but as Borthwick says until the red card it was a very even game. Even with 14 men we probably could should have come away with the win.

Telegraph player ratings are brutal. Only Itoje and Steward scored 5, with others a 4, except for Daly (3) and Vunipola (2). The England total of 58 is only just over half the Irish team total of 102.

There must be a question over whether to take Vunipola, even if he gets a short ban. The plan was for him to play himself into form, which is no longer possible.

I don't know why Billy is in the team anymore. He hasn't played well (at international level) in what feels like ages, and his USP doesn't even seem to be that effective anymore, he doesn't seem to make the metres that he used to make, or suck in defenders.

In my opinion his selection ahead of the quicker and more athletic players like of Mercer or Willis is a good metaphor for the way England are playing at the moment; unfit, slow and ponderous. We just seem so out of step with the other tier 1 teams.

My one tiny hope is that this is the team easing themselves towards the world cup and they have been holding back.

England are a bang average team but the crazy RWC draw gives them a path to a semi final playing other average teams .
All the quality is in the other half. They could easily make the semi and get a free hit against a better yeam who will have had a lot tougher run to that point.

Worl rugby really f**ked up with the draw. One half will be dross.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fiji next week, think we may see some more of the 2nd string playing for bench spots so really do fear for them. It's been quite a while since I've felt this confident going into a WC, was a bit doubtful that Borthwick would succeed so quickly following the disaster of Jones but he hasn't really changed the style, game plan or players which has been really positive for continuity. I'm hoping the thoughts of introducing fresh blood is misfounded post WC as how can he possibly hope to recreate this team while maintaining this streak.

I think I've worked it out - you're practicing to be a politician ....

andyi wrote:England are a bang average team but the crazy RWC draw gives them a path to a semi final playing other average teams .
All the quality is in the other half. They could easily make the semi and get a free hit against a better yeam who will have had a lot tougher run to that point.

Worl rugby really f**ked up with the draw. One half will be dross.

Did they mess up or did they ensure there's going to be some amazing match ups straight from the off?

France Vs NZ to open the tournament? Yes please.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How can you say this is ineffective coaching? Hand picked by the rfu and by Borthwick himself, during the warm ups we're just playing with fitness and new combos. Yes the team will get better but you've got to enjoy the ride too mm. Yes the result fell the wrong yesterday but as Borthwick says until the red card it was a very even game. Even with 14 men we probably could should have come away with the win.

The win might be a bit optimistic but we should have kept that game an awful lot closer. Looking at the stats there wasn't a massive disparity until you look at ruck success and number of runs. Ireland were just able to secure their ball much more effectively and as such had more (and better quality) ball in hand time. For all the talk of poor England defence England missed five more tackles than Ireland having both attempted 136 (per ESPN stats) so it's not indicative of a particularly leaky defence.

I suppose to be slightly fairer to England if the ref had officiated the rucks more evenly they might have done better as he seemed to give Ireland a free pass in the 2nd half - although England were also to blame for not resourcing them better ....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:How can you say this is ineffective coaching? Hand picked by the rfu and by Borthwick himself, during the warm ups we're just playing with fitness and new combos. Yes the team will get better but you've got to enjoy the ride too mm. Yes the result fell the wrong yesterday but as Borthwick says until the red card it was a very even game. Even with 14 men we probably could should have come away with the win.

The win might be a bit optimistic but we should have kept that game an awful lot closer. Looking at the stats there wasn't a massive disparity until you look at ruck success and number of runs. Ireland were just able to secure their ball much more effectively and as such had more (and better quality) ball in hand time. For all the talk of poor England defence England missed five more tackles than Ireland having both attempted 136 (per ESPN stats) so it's not indicative of a particularly leaky defence.

Definitely nothing wring with the defence. Best it's been since Gustards was in its peak.

To sum it up:

England - Rubbish
Ireland - Average
Officiating - Rubbish

Enough said.

Heaf wrote:I suppose to be slightly fairer to England if the ref had officiated the rucks more evenly they might have done better as he seemed to give Ireland a free pass in the 2nd half - although England were also to blame for not resourcing them better ....

Yep, all sorts allowed but that doesn't stop us doing the same. If the ref doesn't call ruck then get your hands in there I say. If he's allowing players to lie on the floor and scoop the ball up then great both teams can it. We tried to copy Ireland at the break down but Ireland looked after the ball better than us.

Heaf wrote:I suppose to be slightly fairer to England if the ref had officiated the rucks more evenly they might have done better as he seemed to give Ireland a free pass in the 2nd half - although England were also to blame for not resourcing them better ....

Agree with that, but it seems to be a universal problem for England that they get treated much more harshly at the rick than their opponents. Is that just refs rewarding positive play, or do England paint such a poor picture that refs don't give them the benefit the doubt? Itt a major issue and has been for most of the past 4 years

Well I've been positive but not anymore.

England are just poor.
Our tightheads are awful!!
Number 8 shocking. Are Tom Willis And Mercer really worse than Billy??
9s are awful....
10s decent
Centre atrocious
Wings and full back not the right ones picked.

Defended Stewsrd so much but now I'm afraid there's glaring flags in his game. Carpenter and Arundel should challenge after the world Cup.

Defence looks leaky and the attack looks missing.

Mateo Carreras (who sadly looks to be getting hunted by top French clubs) efc will rip us a new one.

To be honest the Fijian attack might rip us a new one...

Think you're being a bit harsh on the centres, Geordie. Tuilagi, Lawrence and Marchant have all played well at an individual level, but they haven't had much decent ball to play with and need more time together to gel as a combination.

Poorfour wrote:Think you're being a bit harsh on the centres, Geordie. Tuilagi, Lawrence and Marchant have all played well at an individual level, but they haven't had much decent ball to play with and need more time together to gel as a combination.

Possibly on Marchant and Lawrence...the jury is out until as you say we give them some decent ball.
Tuilagi is so far past his best..even prem level. Should not be there. Would rather Lozowski or someone.