Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[ralphjohn69]

First topic message reminder :

It's not logic. Most pot 4 teams are no worse than Rangers. If Rangers were the worst ever pot 4 team last year, what makes them any better now?

Because instead of playing another Pot 3 team they will be playing a Pot 4 team, who will probably be worse than a Pot 3 team so they have a better chance of getting 3rd, although it's obviously not guaranteed. You really don't help yourself when you post about football....

[McLaren]

Why don't you give me a list of reasons as to why it might be possible that it was nothing to do with their skin colour why they were kicked off the course. Have you got it in you to make some suggestions. It will tell me a lot about how little you know about certain countries that you claim to "stand shoulder to shoulder with".

If you can't answer, it will just confirm that you can't see past race, which ironically makes you a racist.

It's your story, how the hell would I know? It could be for anything. It would be quicker if you just provided the necessary details.

[super_realist]

I had 8 Nigerians on my MSc course, not one of them was allowed through to dissertation stage.
Someone like Mac would instantly jump to the conclusion this was racism and discrimination, same way people like him thinking legitimate criticisms of someone like Dianne Abbot would be mysogyny and racism.
To coin a cliche, everything with the "progressives" (regressive, more like) is black and white, and there's no further nuance or comprehension required.

Would you care to expand on this?

Why don't you give me a list of reasons as to why it might be possible that it was nothing to do with their skin colour why they were kicked off the course. Have you got it in you to make some suggestions. It will tell me a lot about how little you know about certain countries that you claim to "stand shoulder to shoulder with".

If you can't answer, it will just confirm that you can't see past race, which ironically makes you a racist.

You want Mac to suggest some possible reasons, when you know the actual reasons, but won't tell him? How old are you?

I will tell him why. I want to see if he's capable of coming up with reasons before jumping to a knee jerk reaction that it MUST be racism, because he's got form for not being able to look beyond skin colour and examine context.

[McLaren]

Super

In some ways it doesn't matter why they were kicked off your course. The thing that was noticeable to me was the glee that you took from reporting the incident. Like you had been handed the most fortunate anecdote to tell for the rest of your days.

Question, do you sail this close to the wind in terms of being racist with the people you interact with in real life? Is there a joy to be had in being able to get it all out on here? Just can't imagine close friends, wife, girlfriend putting up with it.

[super_realist]

Super

In some ways it doesn't matter why they were kicked off your course. The thing that was noticeable to me was the glee that you took from reporting the incident. Like you had been handed the most fortunate anecdote to tell for the rest of your days.

Question, do you sail this close to the wind in terms of being racist with the people you interact with in real life? Is there a joy to be had in being able to get it all out on here? Just can't imagine close friends, wife, girlfriend putting up with it.

It does matter Mac, because you would take a look at that and see racism, much as the same as you see racism everywhere you look when in most cases it probably isn't even there.

If you want to see real racism, I suggest you go somewhere like Croatia, Serbia, Russia, Georgia etc.

Here you go again accusing me of racism again and yet again you can't give me an example of anything I have said that is racist.

[McLaren]

One example of your racism is the pleasure you seem to have taken when 8 Nigerians were kicked off your course.

Question, do you sail this close to the wind in terms of being racist with the people you interact with in real life? Is there a joy to be had in being able to get it all out on here? Just can't imagine close friends, wife, girlfriend putting up with it.

[the-goon]

One example of your racism is the pleasure you seem to have taken when 8 Nigerians were kicked off your course.

Question, do you sail this close to the wind in terms of being racist with the people you interact with in real life? Is there a joy to be had in being able to get it all out on here? Just can't imagine close friends, wife, girlfriend putting up with it.

McClaren:

Not all accusations of racism will be honest. So what? Are you worried you don't have the critical thinking skills to work out which ones are which?

My critical thinking skills are tingling here.... You couldn't last 24h without a dishonest accusation. Thanks for making my point.

[super_realist]

How did you determine that I'm taking glee?
I'm actually still in contact with 2 of them, so why would I be happy they didn't complete the course?

I used it as a specific example to get you to think that there might be other issues other than race as to why individuals or groups of individuals might be denied something, and that it doesn't have to be a case of discrimination, but you can't see that could be possible because you've already accused me of racism and sexism for daring to criticise a moron like Dianne Abbott.

Your reaction is to play the race card at all times.

[JuliusHMarx]

I had 8 Nigerians on my MSc course, not one of them was allowed through to dissertation stage.
Someone like Mac would instantly jump to the conclusion this was racism and discrimination, same way people like him thinking legitimate criticisms of someone like Dianne Abbot would be mysogyny and racism.
To coin a cliche, everything with the "progressives" (regressive, more like) is black and white, and there's no further nuance or comprehension required.

Would you care to expand on this?

Why don't you give me a list of reasons as to why it might be possible that it was nothing to do with their skin colour why they were kicked off the course. Have you got it in you to make some suggestions. It will tell me a lot about how little you know about certain countries that you claim to "stand shoulder to shoulder with".

If you can't answer, it will just confirm that you can't see past race, which ironically makes you a racist.

You want Mac to suggest some possible reasons, when you know the actual reasons, but won't tell him? How old are you?

I will tell him why. I want to see if he's capable of coming up with reasons before jumping to a knee jerk reaction that it MUST be racism, because he's got form for not being able to look beyond skin colour and examine context.

First guy - showed up drunk to a lecture.
Second guy - wrote all his essays in French.
Third guy - took to wearing his underpants outside his trousers at the summer ball.
Fourth guy - punched the third guy.
Fifth guy - caught masturbating in the library stacks with a copy of Lady Chatterley's Lover.
Sixth guy - smashed up a pinball machine at the Students' Union after narrowly failing to beat the high score.
Seventh guy - had an affair with a lecturer.
Eight guy - punched the third guy. Also punched super, but the authorities sided with him on that one.

Am I close, or just a closet racist?

[the-goon]

Super

If you think about the easiest route to a good job in the UK, which is good primary school, good high school, uni and then workplace, there is a filter at each stage which disproportionately inhibits the path of most minorities. Be that race, class, sex, or whatever. And would you agree that it will take decades of political change to even up the playing field at each stage of that process?

All affirmative action is saying is that we can't wait until that massive change has occurred to have minorities represented in the work place. It's a band aid to help aid the cultural change we need. It is also the case that the massive change we need in society won't happen until minorities are properly represented in important positions. I don't think we get the massive changes needed for equality in our society unless we try and do a few short cuts along the way.

Short cuts at whose expense? What are these short cuts? Quotas? Lowering the standards for certain races? Job openings only for certain races?

Again and again, you guys say it's ok to discriminate against white men in so many words, then deny that you are. Are you simply unaware of the implications of what you advocate? What would you need to see in order understand it?

So, in your opinion/interpretation? That's what you mean.

It's not even true in any broad sense. You can't (well, you can) pick one discrete example of possible minority practice and then extrapolate in the way that you do.

The definition of a short cut is to do something fast at the expense of doing it correctly and with proper foresight. It wouldn't a short cut if it weren't.

So what are the ramifications of the short cuts? Who suffers?

It's literally an admission that the goal is to do it quickly, and damn the consequences.

We have many examples of DEI (or whatever you want to call it) polices discriminating against white men. These are the consequences.

The question is: is this acceptable for you, should these white men be sacrificed on the altar of progress?

[the-goon]

...Do you agree that discrimination against white men in the workplace/education sector is equally bad as any other, and any policy that does so must cease immediately? Just as any policy that discriminates against women/minorities etc.

I would agree with this, but it's not happening so it's a moot point.

Thank you for agreeing on the principal.

It is literally happening, there have been lawsuits across the west. We have examples in this thread. Marx and McClaren have accepted these examples.

Now that you can't deny it's happening, do you still agree?

[super_realist]

I had 8 Nigerians on my MSc course, not one of them was allowed through to dissertation stage.
Someone like Mac would instantly jump to the conclusion this was racism and discrimination, same way people like him thinking legitimate criticisms of someone like Dianne Abbot would be mysogyny and racism.
To coin a cliche, everything with the "progressives" (regressive, more like) is black and white, and there's no further nuance or comprehension required.

Would you care to expand on this?

Why don't you give me a list of reasons as to why it might be possible that it was nothing to do with their skin colour why they were kicked off the course. Have you got it in you to make some suggestions. It will tell me a lot about how little you know about certain countries that you claim to "stand shoulder to shoulder with".

If you can't answer, it will just confirm that you can't see past race, which ironically makes you a racist.

You want Mac to suggest some possible reasons, when you know the actual reasons, but won't tell him? How old are you?

I will tell him why. I want to see if he's capable of coming up with reasons before jumping to a knee jerk reaction that it MUST be racism, because he's got form for not being able to look beyond skin colour and examine context.

First guy - showed up drunk to a lecture.
Second guy - wrote all his essays in French.
Third guy - took to wearing his underpants outside his trousers at the summer ball.
Fourth guy - punched the third guy.
Fifth guy - caught masturbating in the library stacks with a copy of Lady Chatterley's Lover.
Sixth guy - smashed up a pinball machine at the Students' Union after narrowly failing to beat the high score.
Seventh guy - had an affair with a lecturer.
Eight guy - punched the third guy. Also punched super, but the authorities sided with him on that one.

Am I close, or just a closet racist?

At least you bothered to make some suggestions, obviously you're some sort of sexist though considering two were female and you just assumed they were all male.

[JuliusHMarx]

I had 8 Nigerians on my MSc course, not one of them was allowed through to dissertation stage.
Someone like Mac would instantly jump to the conclusion this was racism and discrimination, same way people like him thinking legitimate criticisms of someone like Dianne Abbot would be mysogyny and racism.
To coin a cliche, everything with the "progressives" (regressive, more like) is black and white, and there's no further nuance or comprehension required.

Would you care to expand on this?

Why don't you give me a list of reasons as to why it might be possible that it was nothing to do with their skin colour why they were kicked off the course. Have you got it in you to make some suggestions. It will tell me a lot about how little you know about certain countries that you claim to "stand shoulder to shoulder with".

If you can't answer, it will just confirm that you can't see past race, which ironically makes you a racist.

You want Mac to suggest some possible reasons, when you know the actual reasons, but won't tell him? How old are you?

I will tell him why. I want to see if he's capable of coming up with reasons before jumping to a knee jerk reaction that it MUST be racism, because he's got form for not being able to look beyond skin colour and examine context.

First guy - showed up drunk to a lecture.
Second guy - wrote all his essays in French.
Third guy - took to wearing his underpants outside his trousers at the summer ball.
Fourth guy - punched the third guy.
Fifth guy - caught masturbating in the library stacks with a copy of Lady Chatterley's Lover.
Sixth guy - smashed up a pinball machine at the Students' Union after narrowly failing to beat the high score.
Seventh guy - had an affair with a lecturer.
Eight guy - punched the third guy. Also punched super, but the authorities sided with him on that one.

Am I close, or just a closet racist?

At least you bothered to make some suggestions, obviously you're some sort of sexist though considering two were female and you just assumed they were all male.

Sort of. I assumed they all identified as males. Mea culpa.

[navyblueshorts]

It wasn't by "design"  that these events benefitted white British people in the outset, it was circumstantial.

So when the British rocked up in Africa, India and Australia they just accidently genocided or enslaved the locals?

Mac that was preindustrial and pre scientific revolution.
What about the Barbary slave trade, Ottoman Empire etc enslaving and "genocided" white people? So one eyed is your history understanding you probably weren't even aware of that.

Kind of whataboutery. There's no reason why, for example, Britain can't acknowledge/examine its colonial past, and the potential -ve effects that might have had on people of African descent. What other colonial, for example, nations do re. addressing their past is down to them.

Why is it only Britain that needs to do this? No one is asking the same from Dane's, Belgians, Dutch, Chinese,  French, Ottomans, Africans etc. It seems that it's only Britain that needs to feel shame for a colonial past.
Britain DOES examine and acknowledge it's colonial past.

No one alive today was responsible, so we have absolutely no reason to feel any "shame".

Name a country that hasn't done anything bad in its history? They all have, but for some reason we're supposed to feel shame and guilt for something we played no part in.

Good Lord. No-one says it's only Britain that has to do this. The point is that other nations are irrelevant and we're talking about possible reasons why blacks in UK society might have an experience of historical prejudice. Do you not get that? Do you disagree?

The clue is HISTORICAL, ie, not affecting them now.
Playing the guilt and oppressed card has long since expired.

And you don't think that historical perceptions of blacks has -vely affected their life chances until, arguably, the very recent past? You don't think that might be to do w/ historical perceptions, possibly going all the way back to the perception of superiority indicative in the slave trade? Of course it's affecting them now; not as much as it did, I grant you, but I think you're being disingenuous to imply there's no residual affect now.

For the "guilt and oppressed" card to have expired would at least require that any disadvantage had been erased. It hasn't as yet.

Simple question: when would you say it stopped affecting them?

[navyblueshorts]

I had 8 Nigerians on my MSc course, not one of them was allowed through to dissertation stage.
Someone like Mac would instantly jump to the conclusion this was racism and discrimination, same way people like him thinking legitimate criticisms of someone like Dianne Abbot would be mysogyny and racism.
To coin a cliche, everything with the "progressives" (regressive, more like) is black and white, and there's no further nuance or comprehension required.

Would you care to expand on this?

Why don't you give me a list of reasons as to why it might be possible that it was nothing to do with their skin colour why they were kicked off the course. Have you got it in you to make some suggestions. It will tell me a lot about how little you know about certain countries that you claim to "stand shoulder to shoulder with".

If you can't answer, it will just confirm that you can't see past race, which ironically makes you a racist.

Oh no you don't. You made the initial point and you were then asked to expand. Feel free to do so...

[navyblueshorts]

Yes, and that's almost universally what happens in any sane company. What does happen in places is that where two candidates are equal in all other aspects, but a company has a gender imbalance or lack of representation from certain ethnicities, they're quite within their rights to say that in those circumstances, they'll take the one that improves their gender or ethnic makeup.

Problem is that with mindsets like Super and Goon, they can't imagine that a company having a diverse workforce could actually be a good thing for the company. Financially and HR wise.

Mac, I've already told you I work for one of the biggest companies in Europe. In my own team I've got 25 different nationalities and in the company over 100 different nationalities. I work in one of the most diverse industries in the entire world and it has a pretty much equal gender ratio.
Doubt yours is anywhere close to any of that.

Some of my friends are black...

[navyblueshorts]

How did you determine that I'm taking glee?
I'm actually still in contact with 2 of them, so why would I be happy they didn't complete the course?

I used it as a specific example to get you to think that there might be other issues other than race as to why individuals or groups of individuals might be denied something, and that it doesn't have to be a case of discrimination, but you can't see that could be possible because you've already accused me of racism and sexism for daring to criticise a moron like Dianne Abbott.

Your reaction is to play the race card at all times.

This is actually ridiculous. You didn't say that 8 Nigerians failed to make it to the dissertation part of their M.Sc. and then Mac suggested your comment was in any way racist, or that the reason they failed to make it that far was because they were (presumptive) black. You posted it and simply suggested Mac would automatically, and only, reason that it was because they were (presumptive) black. Then you go off on one, entirely based on an assumption. You couldn't make it up...

I hope you're better at geophysics etc.

[navyblueshorts]

Super

If you think about the easiest route to a good job in the UK, which is good primary school, good high school, uni and then workplace, there is a filter at each stage which disproportionately inhibits the path of most minorities. Be that race, class, sex, or whatever. And would you agree that it will take decades of political change to even up the playing field at each stage of that process?

All affirmative action is saying is that we can't wait until that massive change has occurred to have minorities represented in the work place. It's a band aid to help aid the cultural change we need. It is also the case that the massive change we need in society won't happen until minorities are properly represented in important positions. I don't think we get the massive changes needed for equality in our society unless we try and do a few short cuts along the way.

Short cuts at whose expense? What are these short cuts? Quotas? Lowering the standards for certain races? Job openings only for certain races?

Again and again, you guys say it's ok to discriminate against white men in so many words, then deny that you are. Are you simply unaware of the implications of what you advocate? What would you need to see in order understand it?

So, in your opinion/interpretation? That's what you mean.

It's not even true in any broad sense. You can't (well, you can) pick one discrete example of possible minority practice and then extrapolate in the way that you do.

The definition of a short cut is to do something fast at the expense of doing it correctly and with proper foresight. It wouldn't a short cut if it weren't.

So what are the ramifications of the short cuts? Who suffers?

It's literally an admission that the goal is to do it quickly, and damn the consequences.

We have many examples of DEI (or whatever you want to call it) polices discriminating against white men. These are the consequences.

The question is: is this acceptable for you, should these white men be sacrificed on the altar of progress?

Impressive random aside, there. Irrelevant to my point, but impressive nonetheless.

[navyblueshorts]

...Do you agree that discrimination against white men in the workplace/education sector is equally bad as any other, and any policy that does so must cease immediately? Just as any policy that discriminates against women/minorities etc.

I would agree with this, but it's not happening so it's a moot point.

Thank you for agreeing on the principal.

It is literally happening, there have been lawsuits across the west. We have examples in this thread. Marx and McClaren have accepted these examples.

Now that you can't deny it's happening, do you still agree?

It's not "happening" "across the west". Don't be absurd. Here you go, extrapolating again from a few arguable cases and trying to claim it's a systemic, State-level, sanctioned approach and all somehow designed to put the white man down.

[the-goon]

...Do you agree that discrimination against white men in the workplace/education sector is equally bad as any other, and any policy that does so must cease immediately? Just as any policy that discriminates against women/minorities etc.

I would agree with this, but it's not happening so it's a moot point.

Thank you for agreeing on the principal.

It is literally happening, there have been lawsuits across the west. We have examples in this thread. Marx and McClaren have accepted these examples.

Now that you can't deny it's happening, do you still agree?

It's not "happening" "across the west". Don't be absurd. Here you go, extrapolating again from a few arguable cases and trying to claim it's a systemic, State-level, sanctioned approach and all somehow designed to put the white man down.

Ah look, there are those goal posts moving.

It's not happening... OK, it is... but not THAT much so who cares? I'd imagine the ppl being discriminated would. But f*ck them right? They are white men.

Ok, so you literally just made my point. Some discrimination is OK to achieve "equality" or whatever.

[navyblueshorts]

...Do you agree that discrimination against white men in the workplace/education sector is equally bad as any other, and any policy that does so must cease immediately? Just as any policy that discriminates against women/minorities etc.

I would agree with this, but it's not happening so it's a moot point.

Thank you for agreeing on the principal.

It is literally happening, there have been lawsuits across the west. We have examples in this thread. Marx and McClaren have accepted these examples.

Now that you can't deny it's happening, do you still agree?

It's not "happening" "across the west". Don't be absurd. Here you go, extrapolating again from a few arguable cases and trying to claim it's a systemic, State-level, sanctioned approach and all somehow designed to put the white man down.

Ah look, there are those goal posts moving.

It's not happening... OK, it is... but not THAT much so who cares? I'd imagine the ppl being discriminated would. But f*ck them right? They are white men.

Ok, so you literally just made my point. Some discrimination is OK to achieve "equality" or whatever.

Look, I would continue this nonsense, but I've got to go and crank some grades of black students to give them an undeserved leg up. All official policy of course, and designed solely to screw over white men across the globe. Must be a nice life with nothing but hate for those who look a little different to you and rationalising to yourself that your misfortunes are solely down to those with a different skin colour to yourself - enjoy.

[McLaren]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

[the-goon]

...Do you agree that discrimination against white men in the workplace/education sector is equally bad as any other, and any policy that does so must cease immediately? Just as any policy that discriminates against women/minorities etc.

I would agree with this, but it's not happening so it's a moot point.

Thank you for agreeing on the principal.

It is literally happening, there have been lawsuits across the west. We have examples in this thread. Marx and McClaren have accepted these examples.

Now that you can't deny it's happening, do you still agree?

It's not "happening" "across the west". Don't be absurd. Here you go, extrapolating again from a few arguable cases and trying to claim it's a systemic, State-level, sanctioned approach and all somehow designed to put the white man down.

Ah look, there are those goal posts moving.

It's not happening... OK, it is... but not THAT much so who cares? I'd imagine the ppl being discriminated would. But f*ck them right? They are white men.

Ok, so you literally just made my point. Some discrimination is OK to achieve "equality" or whatever.

Look, I would continue this nonsense, but I've got to go and crank some grades of black students to give them an undeserved leg up. All official policy of course, and designed solely to screw over white men across the globe. Must be a nice life with nothing but hate for those who look a little different to you and rationalising to yourself that your misfortunes are solely down to those with a different skin colour to yourself - enjoy.

And you don't think that historical perceptions of blacks has -vely affected their life chances until, arguably, the very recent past? You don't think that might be to do w/ historical perceptions, possibly going all the way back to the perception of superiority indicative in the slave trade? Of course it's affecting them now; not as much as it did, I grant you, but I think you're being disingenuous to imply there's no residual affect now.

So a white man "blaming" others for their misfortunes is sad (even though that's not what I'm doing, just your strawman). But blacks blaming their own failure in life on the "the evil whiteman who enslaved my ancestors" is 100% valid, despite never being a slave and no white man alive being a slave owner.

   

[the-goon]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

McLaren, what would you say to the white men denied opportunities due to DEI polices? Would you even believe them?

[super_realist]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

If you spoke to a white man, do you think their current status can be attributed to keeping the black man down?
Why don't you ask some of the people in your own country Mac, where the white male, indigenous population is among the poorest in the whole of Europe.

You need to stop looking through this laughable BBC colonialist lens. No one in this country in generations can legitimately complain, (or be grateful) for their position based on the results of colonialism, at best you might be able to make a claim that some of the landed gentry have inherited wealth or land, but you, me, everyone on this board and the vast majority of people you have ever met, or interacted with cannot say that with a straight face and to claim you've benefitted, is as futile as the likes of BLM claiming they are worthy recipients of reparations.

You really sound like the sort of person who sees value in the sort of left wing study that determines whether sheet music, milk, countryside, opera etc is racist. It is utter plankdom. I don't even think you believe half of what you say, it just makes you feel right on and earnest because you think you need to be seen to say these sort of things.

[navyblueshorts]

...Do you agree that discrimination against white men in the workplace/education sector is equally bad as any other, and any policy that does so must cease immediately? Just as any policy that discriminates against women/minorities etc.

I would agree with this, but it's not happening so it's a moot point.

Thank you for agreeing on the principal.

It is literally happening, there have been lawsuits across the west. We have examples in this thread. Marx and McClaren have accepted these examples.

Now that you can't deny it's happening, do you still agree?

It's not "happening" "across the west". Don't be absurd. Here you go, extrapolating again from a few arguable cases and trying to claim it's a systemic, State-level, sanctioned approach and all somehow designed to put the white man down.

Ah look, there are those goal posts moving.

It's not happening... OK, it is... but not THAT much so who cares? I'd imagine the ppl being discriminated would. But f*ck them right? They are white men.

Ok, so you literally just made my point. Some discrimination is OK to achieve "equality" or whatever.

Look, I would continue this nonsense, but I've got to go and crank some grades of black students to give them an undeserved leg up. All official policy of course, and designed solely to screw over white men across the globe. Must be a nice life with nothing but hate for those who look a little different to you and rationalising to yourself that your misfortunes are solely down to those with a different skin colour to yourself - enjoy.

And you don't think that historical perceptions of blacks has -vely affected their life chances until, arguably, the very recent past? You don't think that might be to do w/ historical perceptions, possibly going all the way back to the perception of superiority indicative in the slave trade? Of course it's affecting them now; not as much as it did, I grant you, but I think you're being disingenuous to imply there's no residual affect now.

So a white man "blaming" others for their misfortunes is sad (even though that's not what I'm doing, just your strawman). But blacks blaming their own failure in life on the "the evil whiteman who enslaved my ancestors" is 100% valid, despite never being a slave and no white man alive being a slave owner.

   

Ooooo! Is that another of your poorly thought through 'gotcha' moments? Sorry; try again. The difference being that for blacks, there's truth in it. For you, not so much. At least it appears you're honest re. the fact you do, in fact, blame misfortune on others purely for their ethnicity, rather than your own failings. Congrats; insight and reflective practice is the first step to putting that right. I applaud you for taking that first step.

[navyblueshorts]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

If you spoke to a white man, do you think their current status  can be attributed to keeping the black man down?
Why don't you ask some of the people in your own country Mac, where the white male, indigenous population is among the poorest in the whole of Europe.

You need to stop looking through this laughable BBC colonialist lens.  No one in this country in generations can legitimately complain, (or be grateful) for their position based on the results of colonialism, at best you might be able to make a claim that some of the landed gentry have inherited wealth or land, but you, me, everyone on this board and the vast majority of people you have ever met, or interacted with cannot say that with a straight face and to claim you've benefitted, is as futile as the likes of BLM claiming they are worthy recipients of reparations.

You really sound like the sort of person who sees value in the sort of left wing study that determines whether sheet music, milk, countryside, opera etc is racist. It is utter plankdom. I don't even think you believe half of what you say, it just makes you feel right on and earnest because you think you need to be seen to say these sort of things.

Oh dear...

As for your sentence re. asking about white males in the UK, what does that have to do with this? Are you seriously implying their plight has anything to do with being put down at the expense of blacks in the UK? I presume that's not your position, in which case it has stuff all to do with this conversation.

[the-goon]

...Do you agree that discrimination against white men in the workplace/education sector is equally bad as any other, and any policy that does so must cease immediately? Just as any policy that discriminates against women/minorities etc.

I would agree with this, but it's not happening so it's a moot point.

Thank you for agreeing on the principal.

It is literally happening, there have been lawsuits across the west. We have examples in this thread. Marx and McClaren have accepted these examples.

Now that you can't deny it's happening, do you still agree?

It's not "happening" "across the west". Don't be absurd. Here you go, extrapolating again from a few arguable cases and trying to claim it's a systemic, State-level, sanctioned approach and all somehow designed to put the white man down.

Ah look, there are those goal posts moving.

It's not happening... OK, it is... but not THAT much so who cares? I'd imagine the ppl being discriminated would. But f*ck them right? They are white men.

Ok, so you literally just made my point. Some discrimination is OK to achieve "equality" or whatever.

Look, I would continue this nonsense, but I've got to go and crank some grades of black students to give them an undeserved leg up. All official policy of course, and designed solely to screw over white men across the globe. Must be a nice life with nothing but hate for those who look a little different to you and rationalising to yourself that your misfortunes are solely down to those with a different skin colour to yourself - enjoy.

And you don't think that historical perceptions of blacks has -vely affected their life chances until, arguably, the very recent past? You don't think that might be to do w/ historical perceptions, possibly going all the way back to the perception of superiority indicative in the slave trade? Of course it's affecting them now; not as much as it did, I grant you, but I think you're being disingenuous to imply there's no residual affect now.

So a white man "blaming" others for their misfortunes is sad (even though that's not what I'm doing, just your strawman). But blacks blaming their own failure in life on the "the evil whiteman who enslaved my ancestors" is 100% valid, despite never being a slave and no white man alive being a slave owner.

   

Ooooo! Is that another of your poorly thought through 'gotcha' moments? Sorry; try again. The difference being that for blacks, there's truth in it. For you, not so much. At least it appears you're honest re. the fact you do, in fact, blame misfortune on others purely for their ethnicity, rather than your own failings. Congrats; insight and reflective practice is the first step to putting that right. I applaud you for taking that first step.

So it's not happening, Ok it is but it's not "systematic", now back to it's not happening. Hard to keep up with your constantly changing position. White men have won court cases against DEI based discrimination, so there is that.

You are asserting that there is this unquantifiable negative perception that affect blacks today because 200 years ago, some blacks were slaves.

Yeah.. your position is totally more credible.  

How does the fact that some blacks 200 years ago were slave owners affect this "theory"? Including in the US? How is that factored in?

[super_realist]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

If you spoke to a white man, do you think their current status  can be attributed to keeping the black man down?
Why don't you ask some of the people in your own country Mac, where the white male, indigenous population is among the poorest in the whole of Europe.

You need to stop looking through this laughable BBC colonialist lens.  No one in this country in generations can legitimately complain, (or be grateful) for their position based on the results of colonialism, at best you might be able to make a claim that some of the landed gentry have inherited wealth or land, but you, me, everyone on this board and the vast majority of people you have ever met, or interacted with cannot say that with a straight face and to claim you've benefitted, is as futile as the likes of BLM claiming they are worthy recipients of reparations.

You really sound like the sort of person who sees value in the sort of left wing study that determines whether sheet music, milk, countryside, opera etc is racist. It is utter plankdom. I don't even think you believe half of what you say, it just makes you feel right on and earnest because you think you need to be seen to say these sort of things.

Oh dear...

As for your sentence re. asking about white males in the UK, what does that have to do with this? Are you seriously implying their plight has anything to do with being put down at the expense of blacks in the UK? I presume that's not your position, in which case it has stuff all to do with this conversation.

It's precisely my point that they haven't been, just as the majority of black people are no longer, yet whenever Mac sees a white person doing well, he will say he/she has some sort of long expired " white privilege" but will just blame a government for anything else that has resulted in less well outcomes for other people that haven't benefitted from this fabled "white privilege. Its a fatuous position.

The point is that Mac, like many so called "progressives" and many left wing institutions will immediately play the race card or raise the white privilege flag even more readily than Sadiq Khan or James O Brian would.

Mac seems unwilling to look at other reasons for the predicament people are in, or if he has, he just ignores them because it wouldnt suit his agenda.
I can think of many reasons why black people might find themselves disadvantaged in the UK without having to resort to race, couldn't you? Presumably so, yet Mac can't.

[JuliusHMarx]

Yes, and that's almost universally what happens in any sane company. What does happen in places is that where two candidates are equal in all other aspects, but a company has a gender imbalance or lack of representation from certain ethnicities, they're quite within their rights to say that in those circumstances, they'll take the one that improves their gender or ethnic makeup.

Problem is that with mindsets like Super and Goon, they can't imagine that a company having a diverse workforce could actually be a good thing for the company. Financially and HR wise.

Mac, I've already told you I work for one of the biggest companies in Europe. In my own team I've got 25 different nationalities and in the company over 100 different nationalities. I work in one of the most diverse industries in the entire world and it has a pretty much equal gender ratio.
Doubt yours is anywhere close to any of that.

I haven't read all of your posts, so could you confirm that you think such diversity in your company is a good thing.

[McLaren]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

McLaren, what would you say to the white men denied opportunities due to DEI polices? Would you even believe them?

What you should have asked was "would I even care". I wouldn't.

[McLaren]

super and Goon caught on camera:

[the-goon]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

McLaren, what would you say to the white men denied opportunities due to DEI polices? Would you even believe them?

What you should have asked was "would I even care". I wouldn't.

Navy, Marx, JAS,

Is this also your opinion? Or do you condemn?

Thanks for your honesty, Mac.

[super_realist]

Yes, and that's almost universally what happens in any sane company. What does happen in places is that where two candidates are equal in all other aspects, but a company has a gender imbalance or lack of representation from certain ethnicities, they're quite within their rights to say that in those circumstances, they'll take the one that improves their gender or ethnic makeup.

Problem is that with mindsets like Super and Goon, they can't imagine that a company having a diverse workforce could actually be a good thing for the company. Financially and HR wise.

Mac, I've already told you I work for one of the biggest companies in Europe. In my own team I've got 25 different nationalities and in the company over 100 different nationalities. I work in one of the most diverse industries in the entire world and it has a pretty much equal gender ratio.
Doubt yours is anywhere close to any of that.

I haven't read all of your posts, so could you confirm that you think such diversity in your company is a good thing.

Of course I would say that because I work for a global company, on global assets, but I don't want diversity at the expense of competency, do you?

I also think immigration in a managed form is a good thing, but I'm against open borders for anyone. I don't think there is anything controversial or unfair about that position.

[super_realist]

Anyone see Joe Biden last night? Surely Democrats have to replace him ASAP?

[navyblueshorts]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

If you spoke to a white man, do you think their current status  can be attributed to keeping the black man down?
Why don't you ask some of the people in your own country Mac, where the white male, indigenous population is among the poorest in the whole of Europe.

You need to stop looking through this laughable BBC colonialist lens.  No one in this country in generations can legitimately complain, (or be grateful) for their position based on the results of colonialism, at best you might be able to make a claim that some of the landed gentry have inherited wealth or land, but you, me, everyone on this board and the vast majority of people you have ever met, or interacted with cannot say that with a straight face and to claim you've benefitted, is as futile as the likes of BLM claiming they are worthy recipients of reparations.

You really sound like the sort of person who sees value in the sort of left wing study that determines whether sheet music, milk, countryside, opera etc is racist. It is utter plankdom. I don't even think you believe half of what you say, it just makes you feel right on and earnest because you think you need to be seen to say these sort of things.

Oh dear...

As for your sentence re. asking about white males in the UK, what does that have to do with this? Are you seriously implying their plight has anything to do with being put down at the expense of blacks in the UK? I presume that's not your position, in which case it has stuff all to do with this conversation.

It's precisely my point that they haven't been, just as the majority of black people are no longer, yet whenever Mac sees a white person doing well, he will say he/she has some sort of long expired " white privilege" but will just blame a government for anything else that has resulted in less well outcomes for other people that haven't benefitted from this fabled "white privilege. Its a fatuous position.

The point is that Mac, like many so called "progressives" and many left wing institutions will immediately play the race card or raise the white privilege flag even more readily than Sadiq Khan or James O Brian would.

Mac seems unwilling to look at other reasons for the predicament people are in, or if he has, he just ignores them because it wouldnt suit his agenda.
I can think of many reasons why black people might find themselves disadvantaged in the UK without having to resort to race, couldn't you? Presumably so, yet Mac can't.

I get that point, and Mac does have some form, but your point re. Nigerians and M.Sc. progress is still just that; an assumption, which you then ran off with even though Mac hadn't posted anything to support your assertion.

Noted that you ignored my reference to your wrongheaded claim that (and I'll paraphrase here) no-one currently alive in the UK has benefitted from any part of UK colonialism. I'll take it from that, that you agree it was incorrect in hindsight.

[navyblueshorts]

Goon

If you were to speak to black people do you think their stories would go something along the lines of, they felt like they were often given a leg up in life at the expense of white men?

McLaren, what would you say to the white men denied opportunities due to DEI polices? Would you even believe them?

What you should have asked was "would I even care". I wouldn't.

Navy, Marx, JAS,

Is this also your opinion?  Or do you condemn?

Thanks for your honesty, Mac.

[navyblueshorts]

...I also think immigration in a managed form is a good thing, but I'm against open borders for anyone. I don't think there is anything controversial or unfair about that position.

This, I can agree with and I think all political Parties have been negligent for too long in both having an honest discussion about it, and ensuring we have an immigration service that's fit for purpose. Then again, nothing in this country is fit for purpose.

[navyblueshorts]

Anyone see Joe Biden last night? Surely Democrats have to replace him ASAP?

No, but did see some clips this morning. Not a good look. That said, I'd rather a literal corpse than Trump being in power as POTUS...

[navyblueshorts]

super and Goon caught on camera:

Can't comment on S_R and the-goon re. this video, but isn't it peculiar how Reform and Farage seem to attract this sort of nauseating tw@t? Farage claims it's disgraceful etc, which is fine, but it keeps happening, doesn't it, Nigel?
I mean, what could possibly have made these morons think "Hmm. Reform is the Party I want to be a part of/help!" ? What could it be?

[super_realist]

super and Goon caught on camera:

Can't comment on S_R and the-goon re. this video, but isn't it peculiar how Reform and Farage seem to attract this sort of nauseating tw@t? Farage claims it's disgraceful etc, which is fine, but it keeps happening, doesn't it, Nigel?
I mean, what could possibly have made these morons think "Hmm. Reform is the Party I want to be a part of/help!" ? What could it be?

I think if you delve into any party you'd find some pretty unpleasant people.

Interesting that C4 don't appear to have gone "undercover" in the Tories, Labour, Green or George Galloway's party where you can also be guaranteed to find some pretty lamentable people with similarly questionable views.
Wonder why they were scared to go undercover in the Workers Party for instance? Mmm.

Also interesting that other than the BNP, the only political party to be referred to political standards for racism is....... Labour, and Starmer readmitted Dianne Abbot the other week to stand as a Labour candidate. So goes all ways.

Generally I think it's fair to say that in both US and UK we have a truly pathetic set of parties (all of them) and truly terrible candidates.

[JAS]

Anyone see Joe Biden last night? Surely Democrats have to replace him ASAP?

Can’t help but agree here, he seems to be getting worse by the month, without wishing to be overly harsh I wouldn’t want to even try and answer the question of what he’ll be like in another 4.5 years time IF he’s still above ground. They surely HAVE to replace him asap for the sake of the man himself, his family, his country and the world.

[JAS]

Interesting that C4 don't appear to have gone "undercover" in the Tories, Labour, Green or George Galloway's party where you can also be guaranteed to find some pretty lamentable people with similarly questionable views.

I think going undercover on Reform for questionable quotes and behaviour comes under the banner “low hanging fruit!!”

[Duty281]

super and Goon caught on camera:

A confusing story. Why's he doing a fake accent for starters? Why did he refuse to answer when asked if this was a set up?

I don't think Channel Four would stoop this low, or risk their reputation on something so cheap, but the story doesn't add up.

[McLaren]

super and Goon caught on camera:

Can't comment on S_R and the-goon re. this video, but isn't it peculiar how Reform and Farage seem to attract this sort of nauseating tw@t? Farage claims it's disgraceful etc, which is fine, but it keeps happening, doesn't it, Nigel?
I mean, what could possibly have made these morons think "Hmm. Reform is the Party I want to be a part of/help!" ? What could it be?

I think if you delve into any party you'd find some pretty unpleasant people.

Interesting that C4 don't appear to have gone "undercover" in the Tories, Labour, Green or George Galloway's party where you can also be guaranteed to find some pretty lamentable people with similarly questionable views.
Wonder why they were scared to go undercover in the Workers Party for instance? Mmm.

Also interesting that other than the BNP, the only political party to be referred to political standards for racism is....... Labour, and Starmer readmitted Dianne Abbot the other week to stand as a Labour candidate. So goes all ways.

Generally I think it's fair to say that in both US and UK we have a truly pathetic set of parties (all of them) and truly terrible candidates.

Very fine people on both sides.

[navyblueshorts]

super and Goon caught on camera:

Can't comment on S_R and the-goon re. this video, but isn't it peculiar how Reform and Farage seem to attract this sort of nauseating tw@t? Farage claims it's disgraceful etc, which is fine, but it keeps happening, doesn't it, Nigel?
I mean, what could possibly have made these morons think "Hmm. Reform is the Party I want to be a part of/help!" ? What could it be?

I think if you delve into any party you'd find some pretty unpleasant people.

Interesting that C4 don't appear to have gone "undercover" in the Tories, Labour, Green or George Galloway's party where you can also be guaranteed to find some pretty lamentable people with similarly questionable views.
Wonder why they were scared to go undercover in the Workers Party for instance? Mmm.

Also interesting that other than the BNP, the only political party to be referred to political standards for racism is....... Labour, and Starmer readmitted Dianne Abbot the other week to stand as a Labour candidate. So goes all ways.

Generally I think it's fair to say that in both US and UK we have a truly pathetic set of parties (all of them) and truly terrible candidates.

"Scared" to look at Workers' Party? Really, or your opinion?

You're correct re. Labour cf. political standards, although I've already suggested you read Winstanley's book - have you done so yet?

Should we ignore Reform and the scum that seems to accrete naturally to them, just because it might be (your opinion) that other Parties haven't been subject to the same scrutiny?

A nice summary here.

[navyblueshorts]

super and Goon caught on camera:

A confusing story. Why's he doing a fake accent for starters? Why did he refuse to answer when asked if this was a set up?

I don't think Channel Four would stoop this low, or risk their reputation on something so cheap, but the story doesn't add up.

Ahh. Of course not. Perhaps it's showing, dare I say it, the typical Reform activist in their true light and casting shade on your hero, Nige?

[Duty281]

super and Goon caught on camera:

A confusing story. Why's he doing a fake accent for starters? Why did he refuse to answer when asked if this was a set up?

I don't think Channel Four would stoop this low, or risk their reputation on something so cheap, but the story doesn't add up.

Ahh. Of course not. Perhaps it's showing, dare I say it, the typical Reform activist in their true light and casting shade on your hero, Nige?

Nige isn't my hero. My point is this:

I've campaigned in dozens of elections for UKIP/Brexit Party/Reform/Some independents across England and Wales. In all that time, I've been alongside hundreds, maybe thousands, of activists, most of whom were strangers to me. I have never heard any activist say the sort of bile that Andrew Parker came out with.

Now, it might just be the case that an undercover reporter rocks up to Clacton, and gets randomly assigned alongside the very one person (out of hundreds who were there) who decides to come out with all this bile in front of strangers, in public. I've never witnessed this, but it happens to an undercover reporter on his first attempt to uncover stuff!

And it might just be a coincidence that Parker has an actors profile and is also a full member of an actors union (he must be the only Nigel lover in that union!). And it might just so be that Parker decides, for whatever reason, that he's not going to talk in his actual posh voice when he's going out for Nige, but instead puts on his very heavy apples and pears accent. As you do.

This might have all happened genuinely, but I'm on the fence. The reporter's the luckiest guy in the world if it did happen though.

[super_realist]

super and Goon caught on camera:

Can't comment on S_R and the-goon re. this video, but isn't it peculiar how Reform and Farage seem to attract this sort of nauseating tw@t? Farage claims it's disgraceful etc, which is fine, but it keeps happening, doesn't it, Nigel?
I mean, what could possibly have made these morons think "Hmm. Reform is the Party I want to be a part of/help!" ? What could it be?

I think if you delve into any party you'd find some pretty unpleasant people.

Interesting that C4 don't appear to have gone "undercover" in the Tories, Labour, Green or George Galloway's party where you can also be guaranteed to find some pretty lamentable people with similarly questionable views.
Wonder why they were scared to go undercover in the Workers Party for instance? Mmm.

Also interesting that other than the BNP, the only political party to be referred to political standards for racism is....... Labour, and Starmer readmitted Dianne Abbot the other week to stand as a Labour candidate. So goes all ways.

Generally I think it's fair to say that in both US and UK we have a truly pathetic set of parties (all of them) and truly terrible candidates.

"Scared" to look at Workers' Party? Really, or your opinion?

You're correct re. Labour cf. political standards, although I've already suggested you read Winstanley's book - have you done so yet?

Should we ignore Reform and the scum that seems to accrete naturally to them, just because it might be (your opinion) that other Parties haven't been subject to the same scrutiny?

A nice summary here.

Byline times? To use "yoof vernacular" Seriously?

I'm not defending Reform, I would never vote for them, but I didn't see the same scrutiny in the Green party which had 20 candidates who are basically standing on an Islamic pro Palestinian ticket, I haven't seen the Green party expel their current councillor who was actually convicted of organising harassment against a local Rabbi as well as being an outspoken anti Semite, same goes for Workers Party.

My point is that British politics is in a hole, and no party seems worthy of any of our votes.

[incontinentia]

Yes, and that's almost universally what happens in any sane company. What does happen in places is that where two candidates are equal in all other aspects, but a company has a gender imbalance or lack of representation from certain ethnicities, they're quite within their rights to say that in those circumstances, they'll take the one that improves their gender or ethnic makeup.

Problem is that with mindsets like Super and Goon, they can't imagine that a company having a diverse workforce could actually be a good thing for the company. Financially and HR wise.

Mac, I've already told you I work for one of the biggest companies in Europe. In my own team I've got 25 different nationalities and in the company over 100 different nationalities. I work in one of the most diverse industries in the entire world and it has a pretty much equal gender ratio.
Doubt yours is anywhere close to any of that.

Some of my friends are black...

Some of my blacks are friends

[incontinentia]

Anyone see Joe Biden last night? Surely Democrats have to replace him ASAP?

Shocking stuff. Dems will have a hard time replacing him, he will need to be convinced to stand down. Yet again it boggles the mind that these two are supposedly the best that their parties have to offer.

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