England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

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Carried on..............

Underhill although brilliant has had too many injuries and concussions so for his future health I hope he retires before more damage done.
I rate Ludlum so I'd play him at 6.
Back row fortunately seems to be one area where there are options available for England but then again Borthwick picks Billy...

mountain man wrote:Underhill although brilliant has had too many injuries and concussions so for his future health I hope he retires before more damage done.
I rate Ludlum so I'd play him at 6.
Back row fortunately seems to be one area where there are options available for England but then again Borthwick picks Billy...

i feel the same about Underhill....i cringe at the thought...

The Harelequins scrum looked on top throughout. Baxter looks a really good all round player,great passing.

And Josh Hodge looking very impressive. Bar hs injury (hopefully not too serious)

And a few other Exter kids coming through aswell...Rus Tuima moved to lock...6'5 and 19 and a hlaf stone. Be interesting to see how he develops.
And Greg Fisilau...

Geordie wrote:Kenningham scored this weekend and played well.

I notice Ehren Painter is also starting for Chiefs and scored. I wonder if Baxter is doing a rejuvenation job n the Tight head...that would be very good. 25, 6'4 and 21 stone...

Kenningham dropped off the radar a bit last season, recovering from a bad neck injury caused by an Exeter clear out that wasn't even properly looked at (I am very bothered by Exeter's approach to the breakdown, which I think is actively dangerous but for some reason is rarely penalised), but he was back yesterday and did a lot of good stuff. A different style from Lawes, and not as physical, but has a great set of skills.

Painter and Fin Baxter both played well yesterday, as did Hodge and Louis Lynagh (also back from injury and could well be the sort of player Borthwick wants on the wing. He's not as clinical as Murley, but burlier and tall enough to be an aerial threat)

I have seen what is supposed to be the squad for Friday

1) Rodd
2) Dan
3) Stuart
4) Itoje
5) Chessum
6) Martin
7) Curry
8) Earl
9) Mitchell
10) Farrell
11) Arundell
12) Lawrence
13) Daly
14) Steward
15) Smith

Not seen subs.

If that is true you have to wonder if Ludlam and Ribbans are carrying injuries or if they have really pissed someone off

lostinwales wrote:I have seen what is supposed to be the squad for Friday

1) Rodd
2) Dan
3) Stuart  

If that is our starting front row god help us.  Rodd is a distant second choice behind Simon McIntyre at Sale due to his poor scrum ability - I would have picked McIntyre or Val Rapava-Ruskin ahead of Rodd in the squad.  Likewise Dan wasn't trusted to come on against South Africa, despite George being obviously knackered.  And if Sinkler is picked ahead of you against South Africa, then you must be very poorly regarded at scrum time (what has happened to Stuart over the last 2 or 3 years?).  England lost the semi final because of our second string front row and the third choice in the squad - Rodd, Walker and Stuart have contributed virtually nothing.  I can't help but think if we had had a sub front row of McIntyre/Rapava-Ruskin, Dunn and Schonert against South Africa we would be looking forward to a World Cup final and not the also ran final.

The rest of the team looks ok, barring Steward on the wing, so I can only assume that the other 6 front row players are knackered/carrying some kind of knocks.

My thoughts are that Ludlum is injured as he most definately would have been played over Billy V.

nlpnlp wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I have seen what is supposed to be the squad for Friday

1) Rodd
2) Dan
3) Stuart  

If that is our starting front row god help us.  Rodd is a distant second choice behind Simon McIntyre at Sale due to his poor scrum ability - I would have picked McIntyre or Val Rapava-Ruskin ahead of Rodd in the squad.  Likewise Dan wasn't trusted to come on against South Africa, despite George being obviously knackered.  And if Sinkler is picked ahead of you against South Africa, then you must be very poorly regarded at scrum time (what has happened to Stuart over the last 2 or 3 years?).  England lost the semi final because of our second string front row and the third choice in the squad - Rodd, Walker and Stuart have contributed virtually nothing.  I can't help but think if we had had a sub front row of McIntyre/Rapava-Ruskin, Dunn and Schonert against South Africa we would be looking forward to a World Cup final and not the also ran final.

The rest of the team looks ok, barring Steward on the wing, so I can only assume that the other 6 front row players are knackered/carrying some kind of knocks.

You may well be right...but isnt that just papering over the cracks that we have a number of positions that critical work is required by the clubs and England set up to bring through now. The front row being a prime one.

lostinwales wrote:Not seen subs.

If that is true you have to wonder if Ludlam and Ribbans are carrying injuries or if they have really pissed someone off

I'd presume injury for Ludlam.

Contrary to others I'm not sure Ribbans has been unfortunate though. I just think we had 4 good lock options and the other 3 offered similar skills but to a much better standard (Itoje and Chessum) or different skills (Martin hitting like a train in the tackle).

I'd presume that Lawes will be on the bench for a swansong. Otherwise I'd presume he'd have announced his retirement outright rather than, "after the RWC". Either Care or Youngs will presumably get their final app from the bench too.

I have a feeling that 9-10-12-13 might be what we see in Six Nations, fitness permitting.

The Arundell-Steward-Smith back three looks both odd and potentially decent to me. Fly-halves spend so much time in the backfield these days anyway so Smith should be relatively comfortable. Mitchell's vastly improved work off the ball means he could potentially defend on a wing as well. Similar to what Conor Murray used to do for Ireland. He'd defend as the final defender on the openside. Then one winger would play in the line on the blindside, one winger would drop with Kearney to cover the backfield. They could potentially do similar with Smith and Steward in the backfield, Arundell and Mitchell covering either wing on defensive sets.

Geordie wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I have seen what is supposed to be the squad for Friday

1) Rodd
2) Dan
3) Stuart  

If that is our starting front row god help us.  Rodd is a distant second choice behind Simon McIntyre at Sale due to his poor scrum ability - I would have picked McIntyre or Val Rapava-Ruskin ahead of Rodd in the squad.  Likewise Dan wasn't trusted to come on against South Africa, despite George being obviously knackered.  And if Sinkler is picked ahead of you against South Africa, then you must be very poorly regarded at scrum time (what has happened to Stuart over the last 2 or 3 years?).  England lost the semi final because of our second string front row and the third choice in the squad - Rodd, Walker and Stuart have contributed virtually nothing.  I can't help but think if we had had a sub front row of McIntyre/Rapava-Ruskin, Dunn and Schonert against South Africa we would be looking forward to a World Cup final and not the also ran final.

The rest of the team looks ok, barring Steward on the wing, so I can only assume that the other 6 front row players are knackered/carrying some kind of knocks.

You may well be right...but isnt that just papering over the cracks that we have a number of positions that critical work is required by the clubs and England set up to bring through now. The front row being a prime one.

I disagree on losing the semi entirely because of the change front row. Marler was subbed just after England conceded the first scrum penalty before the subs and looked justifiably knackered. Coley was subbed after his first scrum against the Bok subs where Ox went through him. It's just what Ox can do. Aldegheri is one of the best scrummaging THs in the game and Antonio is 150kg of world class prop. Ox dominated a tired Antonio, then a fresh Aldegheri in the QF. We haven't previously seen this sort of tight five depth.

I think England lost the semi-final at an obvious point that wasn't scrum related. The 5m lineout at 15-6 up with all the momentum and the ref on England's side. They f***ed the lineout on the 5m, then f***ed the subsequent chance on the 22m.

I also think there's a huge element of overrating Premiership performance in relation to internationals in suggesting that McIntyre/VRR, Dunn and Schonert would fare well against the Boks. All players I rate individually. I really wanted Tigers to sign McIntyre when he returned to Sale for instance. I think Schonert deserves looking at ahead of Heyes when Coley goes. I rate VRR. None of them dominate regularly against Premiership quality props though. Genge's best at the scrum at that level is miles ahead of McIntyre. Tigers with Genge used to dominate scrums even when he had a small hooker such as Dolly next to him.

The Prem really isn't strong week to week anymore. It's depressing but it's the reality.

I do agree with the initial point that Rodd's scrummaging has a long way to go though. He offers things at the breakdown, carrying and offloading that other England props don't though. Many props his age need to work on scrummaging. Marler among them. I'd vastly prefer someone with Rodd's ceiling gets time over someone like McIntyre.

Agree with that KC. Well apart from the Schonert bit, he's already 32 given neither Sinckler nor Stuart are likely to retire post world cup I'd prefer to try and get caps into some younger props and bring them through. Heyes and Painter have both had decent starts to the season.

England starting XV: M Smith; F Steward, J Marchant, M Tuilagi, H Arundell; O Farrell (c), B Youngs; E Genge (vc), T Dan, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, T Curry, S Underhill, B Earl.

Replacements: J George, B Rodd, D Cole, D Ribbans, L Ludlam, D Care, G Ford (vc), O Lawrence.

It's different. No final hurrah for Lawes is a surprise. I'm guessing a few bodies were in need of rest post the Boks semi final. Shame Farrell wasn't one of them.

Well we won't be quite as quick at the breakdown as Youngs is starting...

king_carlos wrote:
...

I disagree on losing the semi entirely because of the change front row. Marler was subbed just after England conceded the first scrum penalty before the subs and looked justifiably knackered. Coley was subbed after his first scrum against the Bok subs where Ox went through him. It's just what Ox can do. Aldegheri is one of the best scrummaging THs in the game and Antonio is 150kg of world class prop. Ox dominated a tired Antonio, then a fresh Aldegheri in the QF. We haven't previously seen this sort of tight five depth.

I think England lost the semi-final at an obvious point that wasn't scrum related. The 5m lineout at 15-6 up with all the momentum and the ref on England's side. They f***ed the lineout on the 5m, then f***ed the subsequent chance on the 22m.
....

Ox Nchae looks to be a really awkward customer as a modern prop, given he is much shorter than most and obviously very powerful even if relatively light (tinterwebs reports him at 113 kg, so 17st 10, hardly small but giving away a fair chunk of weight to most opponents).
The other thing I wondered about was how much of an effect subbing martin off for Chessum had - it's always pretty difficult to know how much the 2nd row is contributing to the scrum, but the SA scrum got on top with all the replacements.

Agree looking back that England had a couple of chances early in the 2nd half that would have at least changed the dynamic of the game if they'd been able to put some more points on the board - the not straight throw on the 5m line was probably the biggest unforced error. Even 3 more points at that time, taking us our to 18-6 would have meant the Boks chasing the game more and could have opened up some opportunities for England, especially given the poor conditions.

Itoje starting again. Think he's played every minute so far? He must be knackered.

Itoje missed the Chile game altogether. So three group games, QF, SF and playoff in 8 weeks effectively. A decent workload given he hasn't been subbed but nothing ridiculous. Particularly when there will be rest protocols when the players return.

Rugby Fan wrote:England starting XV: M Smith; F Steward, J Marchant, M Tuilagi, H Arundell; O Farrell (c), B Youngs; E Genge (vc), T Dan, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, T Curry, S Underhill, B Earl.

Replacements: J George, B Rodd, D Cole, D Ribbans, L Ludlam, D Care, G Ford (vc), O Lawrence.

Very different to the rumoured one earlier in the thread then. No Martin - maybe injury? Genge, Manu and Marchant remain. Underhill playing.

The back three was correct though. I'm looking forward to seeing how that trio fare. Presuming that Mallia, Cordero and Bofelli play they will be up against a quality back three.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a fresh Underhill has a brilliant game against a tired looking Pumas pack without Matera. A dominant tackler and breakdown threat is a pretty useful matchup against a pack that might be tired in the carry and slower to rucks.

Youngs has announced his international retirement post this match. 126 caps which is amazing. At his best he has been a brilliant player capable of incisive breaks and quick play.

But he became Eddie's boring and dull deliverer. No one else was trusted and the most uninspiring rugby followed. Not Ben's fault, but it certainly meant he became less effective over time. Whoever takes on this mantle now we can only hope that Borthers does not keep England mired in the same old drudgery or else whatever talent is put forward will fail to shine.

Good luck Ben in your last game and thanks for your service.

So confirmed retirements are May, Lawes and Youngs so far.

If Billy V doesn't retire and if Borthwick still picks him for 6N onwards I'll be rather annoyed....

mountain man wrote:If Billy V doesn't retire and if Borthwick still picks him for 6N onwards I'll be rather annoyed....

I think most people would be

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:If Billy V doesn't retire and if Borthwick still picks him for 6N onwards I'll be rather annoyed....

I think most people would be

Certainly if he plays with the lack of intensity and passion that he showed in the semi final. I think there is still a good player trying to get out, but for whatever reason his performances have been nowhere near the level required in the last few months, while Earls has really stepped up, and while I am not convinced he's the long term answer at 8 (as opposed to 7) he plays like a proper international.

dummy_half wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:If Billy V doesn't retire and if Borthwick still picks him for 6N onwards I'll be rather annoyed....

I think most people would be

Certainly if he plays with the lack of intensity and passion that he showed in the semi final. I think there is still a good player trying to get out, but for whatever reason his performances have been nowhere near the level required in the last few months, while Earls has really stepped up, and while I am not convinced he's the long term answer at 8 (as opposed to 7) he plays like a proper international.

Id call it a day now...draw a line and work on the young kids

Billy has always needed a long run of high level games to get near his best. With the Premiership now having a lot of dud games that is restricted to big European clashes and England apps when picked. Then the occasional higher level Prem game. He still shines consistently in the Premiership. The gulf between those performances and his England form sums up the current issue with the week in, week out quality of domestic really well.

I'm hoping that Barbeary can stay fit. There are work ons but he has that raw ability to make yards after contact. Which was what made Billy fantastic before his form plummeted.

CCS is the other exceptional athlete who might break through. He needs to get past Dombandt though. Tom Willis showed a glimpse of making yards in tough situations in that Wales game. He needs to get past Billy. Given how poor Billy and Dombrandt have been for England after looking good in the Prem that does give a yardstick for performance at least. If CCS and Tillis aren't outshining those two then the odds of them stepping up will be slim.

And just because they don't shine for their clubs it could be different for England as they are becoming the outlier in terms of playing style.

With guys like Billy and before him Easter and Ben Morgan we have been used to having big lumps at no.8 so Earl comes across as something different. The game has changed and maybe it suits a different style of back row now.

Ben Morgan was different to Billy though...if he'd stayed injury free...and fit...he could have been some player for England.

Ben Earl has bene outstanding though. Credit to SB Jones couldn't get the Saracens version of Earl but SB has...likewise Itoje back on form plus others etc etc

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/25/felix-jones-england-south-africa-rugby-world-cup

People wanted experience...we'll they've got it now.

Confirmed a long time ago but Felix Jones is a terrific addition. A very highly regarded coach who works with the backs across attack and defence.

I was just thinking how, after another unsuccessful World cup campaign, many senior players might think their international careers haven't been particularly productive.

However, looking back, after Jones took over, England won a Grand Slam, two other Six Nations titles, and that Autumn Nations Cup during COVID. We also won three of the four summer tours, beating Australia (twice), Argentina and losing only to South Africa.

Three Six Nations titles is the most of any side over the the last eight tournaments. Ireland have two Grand Slams, Wales got one Grand Slam and another title, and France got a Grand Chelem too.

If you are Mario Itoje, then your career doesn't look too bad overall. Still, it's a measure of how fixated Jones, and England, became with the World Cup that these other success haven't registered. The 2016 Grand Slam and 3-0 victory in Australia were the last triumphs to make any real impact. I'd actually forgotten we won the 2020 Six Nations.

I wonder whether the players feel they haven't really had much to show for the last four years. Here's hoping, because maybe there'll be more focus on trying to perform during the next Six Nations. Next year, we have Wales and Ireland at Twickenham, with Italy, Scotland and France away. The draw probably favours France, who play away to Scotland and Wales. The big match, with France hosting Ireland, is actually the tournament opener.

Rugby Fan wrote:I was just thinking how, after another unsuccessful World cup campaign, many senior players might think their international careers haven't been particularly productive.

However, looking back, after Jones took over, England won a Grand Slam, two other Six Nations titles, and that Autumn Nations Cup during COVID. We also won three of the four summer tours, beating Australia (twice), Argentina and losing only to South Africa.

Three Six Nations titles is the most of any side over the the last eight tournaments. Ireland have two Grand Slams, Wales got one Grand Slam and another title, and France got a Grand Chelem too.

If you are Mario Itoje, then your career doesn't look too bad overall. Still, it's a measure of how fixated Jones, and England, became with the World Cup that these other success haven't registered. The 2016 Grand Slam and 3-0 victory in Australia were the last triumphs to make any real impact. I'd actually forgotten we won the 2020 Six Nations.

I wonder whether the players feel they haven't really had much to show for the last four years. Here's hoping, because maybe there'll be more focus on trying to perform during the next Six Nations. Next year, we have Wales and Ireland at Twickenham, with Italy, Scotland and France away. The draw probably favours France, who play away to Scotland and Wales. The big match, with France hosting Ireland, is actually the tournament opener.

I can promise you this: The players are extremely aware England have been (are) a mess for the last four years. They all read the papers, and more than that, they all talk. They know they are part of it.

Each have their motivations for for playing for England, whether it is fear of not being selected again, wanting to go against the best, playing under different coaching (not particularly better, mind, just different), the game cheques, or anything. And they know going out there, they are playing with one arm tied behind thier backs.

This is a huge question, but in simplest terms, success does breed success, and continued failure breeds continued failure. When the players understand they have little chance of beating someone, losing is almost inevitable. To me, that makes the England SA match so remarkable: The old war horses pulled one out from pre-history. But I could also promise there was nothing left in the tank....

Some of these players have had great careers. Part of a longest run of winning games, titles, victories away,let alone their club careers. A good chunk of them got that wave at the start of their england stints too. Still think Lancaster did a great job at integrating a lot of them and even under him we had a pretty consistent record with a team that was building. Obviously Jones came in and helped polish it all off along with a great initial coaching team. Perhaps the return of Gustard along with Jones does similar to Scmidt going into the NZ coaching staff. Help correct the ship a little.

Danny Care says he will still be available for Test rugby. He'll stop playing for England when he stops getting picked.

Not surprising, as he missed out on three years of internationals, and still has the appetite to get as much as he can, before his rugby career ends. He's only four caps away from his 100, which he could reach, if he plays a full role in the Six Nations.

As scrum half is still not a settled position, you'd think priority should go to the next generation, to see who can cut it at international level.

Rugby Fan wrote:Danny Care says he will still be available for Test rugby. He'll stop playing for England when he stops getting picked.

Not surprising, as he missed out on three years of internationals, and still has the appetite to get as much as he can, before his rugby career ends. He's only four caps away from his 100, which he could reach, if he plays a full role in the Six Nations.

As scrum half is still not a settled position, you'd think priority should go to the next generation, to see who can cut it at international level.

Danny Care's day has been and gone. He might get a chance to hit the 100 as the JVP injury is bad and the earliest he'll be back playing is January. Borthwick might want an experienced head in camp though you'd hope Mitchell and one of the Sale scrum halfs would be in there for the actual game time. Care dropping out when JVP is back. The talent is certainly coming through at 9. As well as the two at Sale, Cairns at Chiefs has come through really well, Porter at Quins is a possibility if he can displace Care. Youngs has handily removed himself so that immediately frees up one spot for a younger candidate.

No 7&1/2 wrote:. Perhaps the return of Gustard along with Jones does similar to Scmidt going into the NZ coaching staff. Help correct the ship a little.

The noise about Sinfield leaving all stemmed from one Telegraph article where they summarised he must be off because Felix Jones was coming in. That didn't really make sense and I'd only give any credence to the rumour on the basis Borthwick hasn't commented on it.

As England generally functioned well in defence over the course of the tournament I'd presume that Sinfield will kept on for the rebuild into the 6N unless he wants out to pursue something different.

Gustard signed a "long term deal' with Stade Francais to stay as their defence coach earlier this year. Not sure he's available.

Rugby Fan wrote:I was just thinking how, after another unsuccessful World cup campaign, many senior players might think their international careers haven't been particularly productive.

However, looking back, after Jones took over, England won a Grand Slam, two other Six Nations titles, and that Autumn Nations Cup during COVID. We also won three of the four summer tours, beating Australia (twice), Argentina and losing only to South Africa.

Three Six Nations titles is the most of any side over the the last eight tournaments. Ireland have two Grand Slams, Wales got one Grand Slam and another title, and France got a Grand Chelem too.

If you are Mario Itoje, then your career doesn't look too bad overall. Still, it's a measure of how fixated Jones, and England, became with the World Cup that these other success haven't registered. The 2016 Grand Slam and 3-0 victory in Australia were the last triumphs to make any real impact. I'd actually forgotten we won the 2020 Six Nations.

I wonder whether the players feel they haven't really had much to show for the last four years. Here's hoping, because maybe there'll be more focus on trying to perform during the next Six Nations. Next year, we have Wales and Ireland at Twickenham, with Italy, Scotland and France away. The draw probably favours France, who play away to Scotland and Wales. The big match, with France hosting Ireland, is actually the tournament opener.

That is going to be an interesting game. Ireland have all the systems in place but will be one of the most heavily impacted by post RWC retirements, so I don't know what to expect from them. France is a young team and should be much less effected.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:. Perhaps the return of Gustard along with Jones does similar to Scmidt going into the NZ coaching staff. Help correct the ship a little.

The noise about Sinfield leaving all stemmed from one Telegraph article where they summarised he must be off because Felix Jones was coming in. That didn't really make sense and I'd only give any credence to the rumour on the basis Borthwick hasn't commented on it.

As England generally functioned well in defence over the course of the tournament I'd presume that Sinfield will kept on for the rebuild into the 6N unless he wants out to pursue something different.

Gustard signed a "long term deal' with Stade Francais to stay as their defence coach earlier this year. Not sure he's available.

There was some noise about Sinfield and Warrington Wolves rigby league.

Who knows...it'll all come out on the next few weeks as will all the retirees.

I could see Ireland still being very strong. Sexton is a big loss but Crowley looks a good player to me and Carberry might stay fit. Their systems should allow a 10 to slot in. The rest of the backline is quality and should be settled.

Then it feels there are quality young players to push through elsewhere. Baird and McCarthy at lock. Baird might even get used at 6 if POM phases and I could see him being very effective there. With the lock strength they could also use Bierne at 6 to bulk up the pack as required.

I just have a feeling they might come out blazing with lots of remaining experience but an injection of youth.

Ntamack might not make the Six Nations, sadly. There have been rumours Dupont will take a break to focus on Sevens before the Paris Olympics as well. Antonio retired. I'd expect France to look more like a side in a slight transition than Ireland.

For the Quirke fans i see he's now had surgery for a broken jaw

Now the final is over, had O’Keeffe called that last scrum penalty the other way, I think England could have beaten the NZ that turned out today.

Poorfour wrote:Now the final is over, had O’Keeffe called that last scrum penalty the other way, I think England could have beaten the NZ that turned out today.

Anything could have happened. We could have missed the penalty and lost by more for example.

Poorfour wrote:Now the final is over, had O’Keeffe called that last scrum penalty the other way, I think England could have beaten the NZ that turned out today.

God how much would everyone hate that...cos England's awful apparently...

Geordie wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Now the final is over, had O’Keeffe called that last scrum penalty the other way, I think England could have beaten the NZ that turned out today.

God how much would everyone hate that...cos England's awful apparently...

Well we're a step closer your red line of England finishing in 3rd place in the 6ns. Interesting viewing this in the next 12 months. Won't be exciting...but it'll be interesting.

Farrell is top points scorer at the world.cup as well then. Another tick for Borthwick.

Wow that surprised me

Heaf wrote:Wow that surprised me

We scored 5 DG's - 4 more than any other team - and 19 penalties also 4 more than anyone else

Stats are interesting, our for and against point totals are almost exactly the same as SA (196-77 vs 195-79 for Eng)

Also we were one of 5 teams (with SA, Fr Ire Sc) to only give up a single card (OK it was a red, kind of) so discipline was infinitely better than it has been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup_statistics

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:Wow that surprised me

We scored 5 DG's - 4 more than any other team - and 19 penalties also 4 more than anyone else

Stats are interesting, our for and against point totals are almost exactly the same as SA (196-77 vs 195-79 for Eng)

Also we were one of 5 teams (with SA, Fr Ire Sc) to only give up a single card (OK it was a red, kind of) so discipline was infinitely better than it has been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup_statistics

God don't mention any positives....