England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

Geordie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:Wow that surprised me

We scored 5 DG's - 4 more than any other team - and 19 penalties also 4 more than anyone else

Stats are interesting, our for and against point totals are almost exactly the same as SA (196-77 vs 195-79 for Eng)

Also we were one of 5 teams (with SA, Fr Ire Sc) to only give up a single card (OK it was a red, kind of) so discipline was infinitely better than it has been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup_statistics

God don't mention any positives....

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:Wow that surprised me

We scored 5 DG's - 4 more than any other team - and 19 penalties also 4 more than anyone else

Stats are interesting, our for and against point totals are almost exactly the same as SA (196-77 vs 195-79 for Eng)

Also we were one of 5 teams (with SA, Fr Ire Sc) to only give up a single card (OK it was a red, kind of) so discipline was infinitely better than it has been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup_statistics

God don't mention any positives....

Still a work in progress, still need wingers who can only chase kicks and occasionally tackle, still kick everything from everywhere, still can only attack via one off runners (christ I wish we could generate the kind of momentum Argentina could with their forwards, and it isn't like we don't have the talents to do so) and still have no idea as to what the centres do apart from kick and tackle.

But we are in a better place than we were

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:Wow that surprised me

We scored 5 DG's - 4 more than any other team - and 19 penalties also 4 more than anyone else

Stats are interesting, our for and against point totals are almost exactly the same as SA (196-77 vs 195-79 for Eng)

Also we were one of 5 teams (with SA, Fr Ire Sc) to only give up a single card (OK it was a red, kind of) so discipline was infinitely better than it has been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup_statistics

God don't mention any positives....

Still a work in progress, still need wingers who can only chase kicks and occasionally tackle, still kick everything from everywhere, still can only attack via one off runners (christ I wish we could generate the kind of momentum Argentina could with their forwards, and it isn't like we don't have the talents to do so) and still have no idea as to what the centres do apart from kick and tackle.

But we are in a better place than we were

I forget, but aren't we supposed to pass to the wingers a few times each game?

Geordie wrote:Neither does Sourh Africa's and yet they've the most successful ever....not always about style...

SA fans aren't complaining

nlpnlp wrote:I think who plays on the wing is a bit of a side-show.  It is who plays 10 who is going to determine the way England's backs perform going forward.  If Farrell stays in the squad, he is going to play his kicking focused game and via his strong personality over-shadow any alternative as he has always done with Ford and lately Smith.  If Farrell stays in the squad then you have to go all in with him running the show - his way, or the highway (Ben Spencer, etc).  He is very fit, durable and will make the next World Cup aged 36 if Borthwick sticks with him.

One view is he has dragged a poorly performing England team to within 1 point of beating the world champions and finished top points scorer in the competition.  The alternative view is that he is the reason why England's backs look so impotent. Personally I think both are true and lets be honest you could substitute him for Handre Pollard in the South African team and they would still have won the world cup.  Unfortunately England don't have the forward power of South Africa, so personally I would move on from Farrell, however, I doubt Borthwick will whilst Farrell wants to play.

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:Neither does Sourh Africa's and yet they've the most successful ever....not always about style...

SA fans aren't complaining

All out attack is as crazy as only defend. SA can attack with their backs. Kolbe and Willemse have been very good. Kriel got a lot of plaudits. This only happens if they get the ball in their hands and do something with it. I also appreciate it is not that we can't. Earl's try vs Argentina was really good for instance. The point is that you need to master all aspects of the game even if you focus on a limited set of skills. You need a running game, or at least the threat of one, to make your kicking game really thrive. We did actually manage to pick a runner with huge potential with Arundell. He was definitely at fault for not working harder to get involved, but he wasn't exactly helped either and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see him back for England for a while.

I just dearly hope the attack coach makes a difference because one of the greatest frustrations watching England over the RWC was doing all the hard work to get into the opposition 22 then choosing yet another maul as the attack option, getting stuck and handing the ball over. It became very predictable.

Geordie wrote:I think Daly will depend on how Kèlly and Atkinson are going...or indeed if another 12 is standing out.

If that's the case it could well be a new 12, Lawrence at 13 and Daly at 11...with a new winger at 14..

king_carlos wrote:Dan got the start against Chile and Argentina. As well as the warmup against Fiji. I'd say he was trusted more than Walker in the Six Nations. He had some good moments too and is very dynamic in the carry. Held up OK in the scrum in the Argentina game too against Montoya who's a very powerful scrummager. He's talented.

He clearly has work ons though. That really poor bit of defence against Argentina stuck out immediately. Similar with Rodd who missed a few tackles and was notably of the pace slightly defensively when he came on in the playoff. I mentioned it during the match, it's interesting when fringe players get game time and things like that immediately stand out so obviously.

Had he come on with 20 minutes left and made a mistake such as that in a bigger game then it would have a much bigger negative effect for Dan as a player as well as the team. I think it's possible for a player to be the next best option but also a long way off the starter and desired standard. Not overexposing a player in that circumstance without having to isn't a problem for a me at all.

With the lack of hooker I do have some sympathy for Jones. Hartley and George were so far ahead of the competitors. Then once LCD sorted his lineout throwing, George and LCD were so far ahead. Even the current Boks, who have the best tight five depth I've ever seen, have only really developed two hookers. As seen in this RWC. Mbonambi and Marx are just so far ahead of the next best. Dweba is a beast in the loose but clearly not that trusted in the lineout. He's had 6 apps, 4 starts and they decided to callup the unused Lukhanyo Am instead of Dweba and just keep using Fourie as a makeshift bench option.

When it comes to hooker I think we only really see teams have three strong options if they have a stalwart just clinging on (Dane Coles currently or Schalk Brits in 2019) or a third option so talented that they come ready made from club rugby. Bourgarit being a good example of the latter. He's had relatively few caps considering he was first capped 5 years ago. His only starts have been the covid ANC final where France rotated, the warmup vs Scotland and the Uruguay game after Marchand got injured. Due to Guirado and Marchand, then Marchand and Mauvaka he hasn't been needed. For many nations he'd be challenging as a starter though. Just ludicrous depth but it's more come from the strong French system rather than Galthie developing him with France.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:I think Daly will depend on how Kèlly and Atkinson are going...or indeed if another 12 is standing out.

If that's the case it could well be a new 12, Lawrence at 13 and Daly at 11...with a new winger at 14..

I think Lawrence might be better suited to 12 at international level. He hasn't got the power of Aki, Danty or de Allende obviously but is still a good carrier. International 13s now tend to either be brilliant defensive generals and/or have very good passing and kicking games. Neither of which is really how Lawrence profiles.

12.Kelly, Atkinson
13.Lawrence

That just looks to me like it wouldn't be that strong defensively or have that much bite in attack. Kelly and Atkinson are talented and developing their passing and kicking games but neither are close to being at the level to trouble international defences as distributors. Likewise they are solid carriers but 12s that make yards at international level are far more powerful.

To me Lawrence looks more like a potential 12 when I look at the type of players generally succeeding in the international game. Then someone such as Will Joseph could potentially develop the skills that 13s often have now.

Poorfour wrote:I think World Rugby will extend waist-high tackling to the Pro game over the summer (and the only reason they didn’t do it earlier was the RWC itself). If that happens, then attack and defence will change - offloading will be easier, so there will be more opportunities for a team to play against a disorganised defence.

If that does happen, how would it affect the England team you’d want to see and the one that you think will get selected?

Geordie wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I think World Rugby will extend waist-high tackling to the Pro game over the summer (and the only reason they didn’t do it earlier was the RWC itself). If that happens, then attack and defence will change - offloading will be easier, so there will be more opportunities for a team to play against a disorganised defence.

If that does happen, how would it affect the England team you’d want to see and the one that you think will get selected?

I think the question would he how would that affect rugby as a whole...and I believe it would kill it.

And the maul would become extinct...bar the odd one off a lineout

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I think World Rugby will extend waist-high tackling to the Pro game over the summer (and the only reason they didn’t do it earlier was the RWC itself). If that happens, then attack and defence will change - offloading will be easier, so there will be more opportunities for a team to play against a disorganised defence.

If that does happen, how would it affect the England team you’d want to see and the one that you think will get selected?

I think the question would he how would that affect rugby as a whole...and I believe it would kill it.

And the maul would become extinct...bar the odd one off a lineout

I think you’ve got that very much the wrong way round. If anything will kill the game, it’s failing to act to prevent head injuries.

As the RWC showed, none of the other measures that have been tried have prevented there being multiple instances of head contact during every game. How many games this year finished without a yellow card? How many of those *should* have been red?

The waist tackle rule is designed to create a clear separation between the tackler’s head and the ball carrier’s in high force situations. The evidence from the community game in France, where the changes have been in force for several years, is that it’s working.

I also don’t think it will kill the maul. A powerful enough player who can stay on their feed can still become the focus for a maul - but they’re more likely to offload. An attacking maul anywhere other than a lineout is already a rarity anyway (as opposed to a choke tackle maul designed to let the defence win the ball back, which I think has become too easy a tactic; refs are calling maul too early and before a second attacker has joined, which doesn’t meet the definition of a maul).

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd not seen anything to say that the waist high tackles were coming into the pro game and at international level. Is that confirmed or just rumour and as a trial? That would vastly alter the defences of everyone. So obviously need another 10 months working on that before we can think about attack :(

carpet baboon wrote:Also can I just add that PSdT put in 28 tackles in the WC final a lot of them very dominant and not once did he come close to getting a yellow for a high hit.
Estabeth absolutely cut Richie M in half with a perfect waist high hit at pace.
It is entirely possible to make "BIG" hits in rugby perfectly legally.
Can't stand the "games gone soft" brigade or even worse "let the boys play" simpletons when it comes to tackle hight.

England were “found out” at the World Cup, with years of scrummaging neglect requiring a cultural “sea change” in this country, Exeter’s Rob Baxter has warned.

Steve Borthwick’s side were beaten 16-15 by eventual champions South Africa in the semi-final earlier this month, having conceded a stream of set-piece penalties after Joe Marler and Dan Cole, their starting props, were replaced.

Asked about the prospects of Ehren Painter, who arrived at Exeter from Northampton Saints this season, Baxter launched into an extended observation on how the scrum has been refereed in the Premiership, as well as how that area of the game is covered by media.

Painter, 25, represented England against the Barbarians in 2019. The tighthead prop helped force a pushover penalty try for Exeter against Sale Sharks last weekend and Baxter saluted his influence before confronting wider issues.

“Ehren’s been fantastic,” Baxter said. “He’s a guy who’s working exceptionally hard and getting his rewards for being part of an eight that are going well and buying into things together. Without a doubt, it’s going to be hard not to see him as one of the top scrummaging tightheads in the Premiership. Let’s see what happens.

“We’ve probably got to make a sea change as a sport that we all need to be talking about the scrum being a big part of the game and not a hindrance. Without doubt, we’ve forced a situation, whether it’s been TV or media, where we don’t want scrums. Potentially, we’ve been found out for it now when we’ve got to the international stage.

“We don’t have to try to force referees to make a decision at every single scrum. You do that, and you start getting props rewarded for just trickery, really. That’s got to stop. If you want to develop scrummaging props, we have to start deciding that we like scrums, that we want them to be a big contest, that we want them to happen.

“I thought our referee against Sale [Joe James] refereed them really, really well. He allowed re-sets to happen when they should have been re-sets. That meant there was a really, really good scrummaging contest. He made decisions on what was actually happening rather than rushing into decisions that didn’t have to be made. If we can work towards that, we’ll see a growth of scrummaging props. But we won’t get it [otherwise].”

The Rugby Football Union recently staged its inaugural camp for promising tight-five forwards, in part to accelerate the development of potential internationals, and Baxter believes the selection of Marler and Cole to face the Springboks was another indication of England being left behind by other nations.



“When you get rewarded for not scrummaging, which has been happening for quite a few years, you’re not going to develop scrummaging props,” Baxter added. “When you look at how England needed to go back to two senior props, who used to be rewarded for scrummaging, you can see how different things need to be.

“That’s all of us as a game. Media play a part as well. If you’ve got someone on the TV who’s moaning every time there’s a scrum, that doesn’t make anybody think scrums are good. That isn’t how you develop scrummaging props, by complaining every time there is a scrum.

“In France and South Africa, they love seeing scrums. They are highlights of the game. That’s why they develop props. It doesn’t happen by accident. It happens because the whole game is focused on it. That takes pressure off the referees to make snap decisions. We are so geared towards thinking that ball-in-play creates great rugby that we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We’ve got to re-adapt.”

Baxter will ensure that props at Exeter are left in no doubt as to their chief responsibilities.

“You put things in priority,” he added. “The priorities are maybe set-piece, then maybe defence, then clear-out skills. If they go all the way through to being a guy who can run a try in from 50 metres, fantastic, but that isn’t going to be priority number one. That’s going to be a long way down the list.

“I would think that if you looked at the props playing for South Africa, are those the distributors and midfield steppers playing for other countries? But they’ve won World Cups consistently and they’re right at the top of the world game. There are priorities there, and some people are getting it wrong and some are getting it right.”

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Not the right place to put this, but not worth a new thread. A couple of weeks ago Reuben Logan (son of Gabby and Kenny) played his first match for Saints, just a few months over 18 and already 6'5" and 18 stone, he would appear to have opted for England over Scotland or Wales. Until he came to Saints, for Wasps and in the England U18 set up he played centre or winger, so why the hell are we trying to convert him to back row, both Saints and England have quality backrowers coming out of their ears. Neither have a big barnstorming centre or winger, he obviously has some skills there to get into the U18s set up. Am I missing something or should we be trying to develop players that would suit the holes in our armoury at both club and country level.

Most people said that Banahan would have suited 12 better than wing, here is example number 2.

Geordie wrote:...Add Barbeary in there aswell....imagine him at hooker....tearing it up if he had continued to work on his hooker set piece skills....

What Blackett also recognises in Barbeary is massive potential, something the England head coach, Eddie Jones, has also noted. The back row has, as a result of that recognition, become the focal point, rather than the role of hooker. “Right now I’m going to focus on back row, that’s where I can do the best for Lee and Wasps,” explained Barbeary. “And we’ll see what happens, but I’m going back rower for the future.

“I was just enjoying where I was playing and Lee gave me the option in terms of, ‘Do you want to be a back row? — we think you could be a great back row at Wasps.’ I hadn’t really played at hooker for about a year, since before Covid. In terms of going back to hooker, there was uncertainty about playing and being in the [Wasps] squad. I spoke to Mum and my dad, who has always seen me as a back rower. I was enjoying it a lot more in the back row, there was more freedom, so I decided to go ahead and stay there, and hopefully it’s the right decision.”

Barbeary, who is still listed on the Wasps website as a hooker, spoke to Jones about his best position; they both came to the same conclusion. “We had a discussion in terms of what I was thinking. But I think it was more my decision more than anything else in terms of where I saw myself and where I wanted to play, rather than his [decision]. It was more about what I was thinking to let him know more than anything else. I’ve got lots of enjoyment out of my ball carrying and trying to beat defenders.”

Blackett finds it difficult not to smile whenever he talks about Barbeary and is excited about the potential he brings to the squad and believes the input from Jones has increased the youngster’s desire to break into the crowded England back-row contenders.

He said: “Alfie was massively keen on playing in the back row. I just saw a weight lift from him when he realised he could still play back row and that the England selectors believed he could play for his country in that position.

king_carlos wrote:I think Barbeary definitely makes the squad as a number 8 if he stays fit. His carrying in traffic is a point of difference to all of England's other 8s coming through now that Billy has declined so much. Making yards against set defences and after contact is invaluable now defences are so much better. He's also very good over the ball in defence. If he can up his work rate in the tackle, which most young back rows do as they develop, then there's an excellent number 8 there.

Geordie wrote:Well we shall see how he goes this season. He will have to play some serious rugby to oust Ben Earl from that spot at the moment, as will Mercer or Tom Willis or any other would be challenger.

In the raw aftermath of England’s gut-wrenching loss to South Africa, as players and coaches gathered close to the touchline, Steve Borthwick embraced Billy Vunipola. The latter looked distraught. During two separate cameos from the bench against the Springboks, he had committed costly errors, including a spill that ended the game. In truth, Vunipola’s very inclusion in the World Cup squad two months earlier, as the sole out-and-out No 8, appeared a significant gamble from the outset.

Borthwick was banking on tournament know-how. Vunipola had not played at all since April and, before that, had been a flagship omission from the Six Nations. Lest we forget, Alex Dombrandt started each of Borthwick’s first six games as head coach. A red card in the warm-up against Ireland, yielding a two-match suspension, disrupted Vunipola’s preparations and he could not seem to recover a foothold. Off the pitch, he will have provided valuable support for Ben Earl, his Saracens colleague who became England’s go-to No 8. On it, the 2023 World Cup felt like a comeback too far for Vunipola.

His response will be fascinating. Vunipola turned 31 on Friday. However, countless gain-line battles have put miles on the clock. He returns to a loaded back-row stable at Saracens, where he has one year left on his contract. Few could begrudge him a move abroad. Whether or not he gets one, Vunipola is at a crossroads. England are, too, because No 8 is one of a few pivotal roles – see also hooker, tighthead prop and inside centre – that requires bolstering. Fortunately, one subplot of this season’s Premiership will be a scrap between promising England hopefuls in this position.

Dombrandt, Alfie Barbeary, Callum Chick, Tom Willis and Zach Mercer have all been prominent over the first three rounds of the domestic campaign. Chandler Cunningham-South is yet to feature for Harlequins, but has plenty of admirers and intoxicating potential. A recent colleague with England Under-20, Greg Fisilau, has made a hugely assured start at Exeter Chiefs since arriving from Wasps as well. We know that Borthwick respects Kyle Hatherell and Matt Rogerson, both of whom have started for Leicester Tigers. Fitz Harding of Bristol Bears continues to develop, too. The nature of a 10-team league means that there are head-to-heads to hype up most weeks.

Mercer helped Gloucester best Harlequins with a last-gasp victory in the opening round. Dombrandt shunted over in the second minute. But then Mercer went to work and finished up with a mammoth 23 carries. Such output characterised his time at Montpellier. Rangy, and always conspicuous due to his light blue scrum cap, Mercer uses deft footwork to dodge tackles and slip between opponents. And he does not shirk heavy traffic. Mercer, omitted from the World Cup picture before the beginning of July, racked up another 23 carries on a windswept and rainy night at Kingston Park as Gloucester triumphed 18-14.

Dombrandt, who started for England as recently as August in their first World Cup warm-up against Wales, produced a dogged defensive display to defy Exeter in round two. He set up Jack Kenningham with a trademark saunter out wide but registered 18 tackles as well as swooping for a clever jackal to kill off the game. A wide-eyed, fist-pumping celebration did not leave much room for interpretation. The 26-year-old is evidently eager to demonstrate his quality.

Barbeary, still 23, will be feeling similarly determined. Though his immense talent has been impeded by injuries as well as the demise of Wasps, he is finally stringing together appearances again. In three consecutive starts at the base of Bath’s scrum, he has bumped and bustled with ball in hand while threatening the breakdown on the other side of the ball. Barbeary threw a trio of offloads against Chick’s Newcastle in round one.

Willis, who replaced Dombrandt in Cardiff without making Borthwick’s 33-man squad, seems close to the England shake-up. He was among the chief inspirations behind a 24-3 win at Kingsholm that has sparked Saracens. Mercer actually bypassed Willis with an early dart but injured his ankle upon spilling over the try-line. By the time he made way, on the half-hour mark, Willis had bagged the first of his two tries and would end up with 18 tackles as well as three contrasting turnovers in a steely rear-guard from the champions.

The second finish, for which the scorer shrugged off two tacklers and dragged two more over the whitewash, encapsulated what Willis developed during his stint in Bordeaux; namely a rare capacity to eke out impetus in crowded situations and from backpedalling scrums. Comparing statistics from small sample sizes is dangerous, because they depend on possession shares and games can play out in wildly different ways. That said, Willis and Mercer are both averaging 3.8 metres per carry each. Mercer, having beaten 21 defenders from 50 carries, is ahead of Willis, who has beaten 12 from 33, as far as his rate of evading tackles.

Of course, one cannot ponder any single position in the back five of a pack in isolation. The question of collective balance, to cover the bases required, is paramount. Interestingly, none of these No 8s have been prominent line-out targets in the traditional sense. Across the first three rounds, only Chick (four times) and Mercer (once) have been lifted to receive the ball. Dombrandt, Mercer and Barbeary, the latter twice against Leicester Tigers, have been found in midfield by throws over the top. Club colleagues are better suited to jumping at the set piece.

Dombrandt has Jack Kenningham at Harlequins. One of Mercer’s back-row buddies is Lewis Ludlow, a line-out leader. Although Bath have been depleted by a serious hamstring injury to Ted Hill, they remain unlikely to lift the burly Barbeary. Willis has Nick Isiekwe and Theo McFarland, with Juan Martín González now at Saracens, too. In an England context, all of this means that Borthwick will probably not rely on a jumping No 8 as prolific as Taulupe Faletau or Kieran Read, unless Cunningham-South, Rogerson or Hatherell surge into the reckoning from relative obscurity. That said, Lewis Ludlam started the World Cup victory over Japan in that role and is reliable at the line-out.

Among the last actions of Earl’s superb World Cup campaign was to run the ball away from a scrum that was retreating rapidly. It was an understated, yet highly accomplished piece of skill befitting of an experienced specialist rather than a stand-in. Without it, Argentina were certain to be awarded a penalty and might have nabbed a bronze medal.

Looking longer-term, Earl is sure to be regarded as a possible No 8, though he would probably need to be complemented by a bopping carrier or a hybrid lock-flanker at blindside. Ironically, Sam Simmonds is probably the closest to Earl when it comes to profile.

Other considerations are in play. For instance, George Martin probably does not have the spring to go without two additional jumpers elsewhere in the back five. Borthwick is known to believe that Tom Pearson has the potential to improve at the line-out. In the past, Borthwick’s expertise has emboldened Tom Curry to be an auxiliary set-piece target. This allowed the combination of Curry, Sam Underhill and Vunipola to function in 2019. Speaking of Underhill, a domineering performance against the Pumas reinforced the choice available to Borthwick. Mark McCall has dizzying options as well. Earl, González and Vunipola make it three Saracens to have started a World Cup match at No 8, plus Willis.

Mercer has been ruled out of Gloucester’s visit to Sale, with his lay-off seemingly open-ended at this stage, but Barbeary will come up against Pearson and co in Northampton as Dombrandt and Chick lock horns at the Twickenham Stoop. Borthwick has already shifted his focus from the World Cup to the Six Nations and has plenty to chew over. Nailing down the identity of his No 8 is bound to be a pressing priority.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well we shall see how he goes this season. He will have to play some serious rugby to oust Ben Earl from that spot at the moment, as will Mercer or Tom Willis or any other would be challenger.

Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has a new piece on No.8 challengers

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/11/03/england-squad-bill-vunipola-selection-no8-options-borthwick/

In the raw aftermath of England’s gut-wrenching loss to South Africa, as players and coaches gathered close to the touchline, Steve Borthwick embraced Billy Vunipola. The latter looked distraught. During two separate cameos from the bench against the Springboks, he had committed costly errors, including a spill that ended the game. In truth, Vunipola’s very inclusion in the World Cup squad two months earlier, as the sole out-and-out No 8, appeared a significant gamble from the outset.

Borthwick was banking on tournament know-how. Vunipola had not played at all since April and, before that, had been a flagship omission from the Six Nations. Lest we forget, Alex Dombrandt started each of Borthwick’s first six games as head coach. A red card in the warm-up against Ireland, yielding a two-match suspension, disrupted Vunipola’s preparations and he could not seem to recover a foothold. Off the pitch, he will have provided valuable support for Ben Earl, his Saracens colleague who became England’s go-to No 8. On it, the 2023 World Cup felt like a comeback too far for Vunipola.

His response will be fascinating. Vunipola turned 31 on Friday. However, countless gain-line battles have put miles on the clock. He returns to a loaded back-row stable at Saracens, where he has one year left on his contract. Few could begrudge him a move abroad. Whether or not he gets one, Vunipola is at a crossroads. England are, too, because No 8 is one of a few pivotal roles – see also hooker, tighthead prop and inside centre – that requires bolstering. Fortunately, one subplot of this season’s Premiership will be a scrap between promising England hopefuls in this position.

Dombrandt, Alfie Barbeary, Callum Chick, Tom Willis and Zach Mercer have all been prominent over the first three rounds of the domestic campaign. Chandler Cunningham-South is yet to feature for Harlequins, but has plenty of admirers and intoxicating potential. A recent colleague with England Under-20, Greg Fisilau, has made a hugely assured start at Exeter Chiefs since arriving from Wasps as well. We know that Borthwick respects Kyle Hatherell and Matt Rogerson, both of whom have started for Leicester Tigers. Fitz Harding of Bristol Bears continues to develop, too. The nature of a 10-team league means that there are head-to-heads to hype up most weeks.

Mercer helped Gloucester best Harlequins with a last-gasp victory in the opening round. Dombrandt shunted over in the second minute. But then Mercer went to work and finished up with a mammoth 23 carries. Such output characterised his time at Montpellier. Rangy, and always conspicuous due to his light blue scrum cap, Mercer uses deft footwork to dodge tackles and slip between opponents. And he does not shirk heavy traffic. Mercer, omitted from the World Cup picture before the beginning of July, racked up another 23 carries on a windswept and rainy night at Kingston Park as Gloucester triumphed 18-14.

Dombrandt, who started for England as recently as August in their first World Cup warm-up against Wales, produced a dogged defensive display to defy Exeter in round two. He set up Jack Kenningham with a trademark saunter out wide but registered 18 tackles as well as swooping for a clever jackal to kill off the game. A wide-eyed, fist-pumping celebration did not leave much room for interpretation. The 26-year-old is evidently eager to demonstrate his quality.

Barbeary, still 23, will be feeling similarly determined. Though his immense talent has been impeded by injuries as well as the demise of Wasps, he is finally stringing together appearances again. In three consecutive starts at the base of Bath’s scrum, he has bumped and bustled with ball in hand while threatening the breakdown on the other side of the ball. Barbeary threw a trio of offloads against Chick’s Newcastle in round one.

Willis, who replaced Dombrandt in Cardiff without making Borthwick’s 33-man squad, seems close to the England shake-up. He was among the chief inspirations behind a 24-3 win at Kingsholm that has sparked Saracens. Mercer actually bypassed Willis with an early dart but injured his ankle upon spilling over the try-line. By the time he made way, on the half-hour mark, Willis had bagged the first of his two tries and would end up with 18 tackles as well as three contrasting turnovers in a steely rear-guard from the champions.

The second finish, for which the scorer shrugged off two tacklers and dragged two more over the whitewash, encapsulated what Willis developed during his stint in Bordeaux; namely a rare capacity to eke out impetus in crowded situations and from backpedalling scrums. Comparing statistics from small sample sizes is dangerous, because they depend on possession shares and games can play out in wildly different ways. That said, Willis and Mercer are both averaging 3.8 metres per carry each. Mercer, having beaten 21 defenders from 50 carries, is ahead of Willis, who has beaten 12 from 33, as far as his rate of evading tackles.

Of course, one cannot ponder any single position in the back five of a pack in isolation. The question of collective balance, to cover the bases required, is paramount. Interestingly, none of these No 8s have been prominent line-out targets in the traditional sense. Across the first three rounds, only Chick (four times) and Mercer (once) have been lifted to receive the ball. Dombrandt, Mercer and Barbeary, the latter twice against Leicester Tigers, have been found in midfield by throws over the top. Club colleagues are better suited to jumping at the set piece.

Dombrandt has Jack Kenningham at Harlequins. One of Mercer’s back-row buddies is Lewis Ludlow, a line-out leader. Although Bath have been depleted by a serious hamstring injury to Ted Hill, they remain unlikely to lift the burly Barbeary. Willis has Nick Isiekwe and Theo McFarland, with Juan Martín González now at Saracens, too. In an England context, all of this means that Borthwick will probably not rely on a jumping No 8 as prolific as Taulupe Faletau or Kieran Read, unless Cunningham-South, Rogerson or Hatherell surge into the reckoning from relative obscurity. That said, Lewis Ludlam started the World Cup victory over Japan in that role and is reliable at the line-out.

Among the last actions of Earl’s superb World Cup campaign was to run the ball away from a scrum that was retreating rapidly. It was an understated, yet highly accomplished piece of skill befitting of an experienced specialist rather than a stand-in. Without it, Argentina were certain to be awarded a penalty and might have nabbed a bronze medal.

Looking longer-term, Earl is sure to be regarded as a possible No 8, though he would probably need to be complemented by a bopping carrier or a hybrid lock-flanker at blindside. Ironically, Sam Simmonds is probably the closest to Earl when it comes to profile.

Other considerations are in play. For instance, George Martin probably does not have the spring to go without two additional jumpers elsewhere in the back five. Borthwick is known to believe that Tom Pearson has the potential to improve at the line-out. In the past, Borthwick’s expertise has emboldened Tom Curry to be an auxiliary set-piece target. This allowed the combination of Curry, Sam Underhill and Vunipola to function in 2019. Speaking of Underhill, a domineering performance against the Pumas reinforced the choice available to Borthwick. Mark McCall has dizzying options as well. Earl, González and Vunipola make it three Saracens to have started a World Cup match at No 8, plus Willis.

Mercer has been ruled out of Gloucester’s visit to Sale, with his lay-off seemingly open-ended at this stage, but Barbeary will come up against Pearson and co in Northampton as Dombrandt and Chick lock horns at the Twickenham Stoop. Borthwick has already shifted his focus from the World Cup to the Six Nations and has plenty to chew over. Nailing down the identity of his No 8 is bound to be a pressing priority.

Geordie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well we shall see how he goes this season. He will have to play some serious rugby to oust Ben Earl from that spot at the moment, as will Mercer or Tom Willis or any other would be challenger.

Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has a new piece on No.8 challengers

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/11/03/england-squad-bill-vunipola-selection-no8-options-borthwick/

In the raw aftermath of England’s gut-wrenching loss to South Africa, as players and coaches gathered close to the touchline, Steve Borthwick embraced Billy Vunipola. The latter looked distraught. During two separate cameos from the bench against the Springboks, he had committed costly errors, including a spill that ended the game. In truth, Vunipola’s very inclusion in the World Cup squad two months earlier, as the sole out-and-out No 8, appeared a significant gamble from the outset.

Borthwick was banking on tournament know-how. Vunipola had not played at all since April and, before that, had been a flagship omission from the Six Nations. Lest we forget, Alex Dombrandt started each of Borthwick’s first six games as head coach. A red card in the warm-up against Ireland, yielding a two-match suspension, disrupted Vunipola’s preparations and he could not seem to recover a foothold. Off the pitch, he will have provided valuable support for Ben Earl, his Saracens colleague who became England’s go-to No 8. On it, the 2023 World Cup felt like a comeback too far for Vunipola.

His response will be fascinating. Vunipola turned 31 on Friday. However, countless gain-line battles have put miles on the clock. He returns to a loaded back-row stable at Saracens, where he has one year left on his contract. Few could begrudge him a move abroad. Whether or not he gets one, Vunipola is at a crossroads. England are, too, because No 8 is one of a few pivotal roles – see also hooker, tighthead prop and inside centre – that requires bolstering. Fortunately, one subplot of this season’s Premiership will be a scrap between promising England hopefuls in this position.

Dombrandt, Alfie Barbeary, Callum Chick, Tom Willis and Zach Mercer have all been prominent over the first three rounds of the domestic campaign. Chandler Cunningham-South is yet to feature for Harlequins, but has plenty of admirers and intoxicating potential. A recent colleague with England Under-20, Greg Fisilau, has made a hugely assured start at Exeter Chiefs since arriving from Wasps as well. We know that Borthwick respects Kyle Hatherell and Matt Rogerson, both of whom have started for Leicester Tigers. Fitz Harding of Bristol Bears continues to develop, too. The nature of a 10-team league means that there are head-to-heads to hype up most weeks.

Mercer helped Gloucester best Harlequins with a last-gasp victory in the opening round. Dombrandt shunted over in the second minute. But then Mercer went to work and finished up with a mammoth 23 carries. Such output characterised his time at Montpellier. Rangy, and always conspicuous due to his light blue scrum cap, Mercer uses deft footwork to dodge tackles and slip between opponents. And he does not shirk heavy traffic. Mercer, omitted from the World Cup picture before the beginning of July, racked up another 23 carries on a windswept and rainy night at Kingston Park as Gloucester triumphed 18-14.

Dombrandt, who started for England as recently as August in their first World Cup warm-up against Wales, produced a dogged defensive display to defy Exeter in round two. He set up Jack Kenningham with a trademark saunter out wide but registered 18 tackles as well as swooping for a clever jackal to kill off the game. A wide-eyed, fist-pumping celebration did not leave much room for interpretation. The 26-year-old is evidently eager to demonstrate his quality.

Barbeary, still 23, will be feeling similarly determined. Though his immense talent has been impeded by injuries as well as the demise of Wasps, he is finally stringing together appearances again. In three consecutive starts at the base of Bath’s scrum, he has bumped and bustled with ball in hand while threatening the breakdown on the other side of the ball. Barbeary threw a trio of offloads against Chick’s Newcastle in round one.

Willis, who replaced Dombrandt in Cardiff without making Borthwick’s 33-man squad, seems close to the England shake-up. He was among the chief inspirations behind a 24-3 win at Kingsholm that has sparked Saracens. Mercer actually bypassed Willis with an early dart but injured his ankle upon spilling over the try-line. By the time he made way, on the half-hour mark, Willis had bagged the first of his two tries and would end up with 18 tackles as well as three contrasting turnovers in a steely rear-guard from the champions.

The second finish, for which the scorer shrugged off two tacklers and dragged two more over the whitewash, encapsulated what Willis developed during his stint in Bordeaux; namely a rare capacity to eke out impetus in crowded situations and from backpedalling scrums. Comparing statistics from small sample sizes is dangerous, because they depend on possession shares and games can play out in wildly different ways. That said, Willis and Mercer are both averaging 3.8 metres per carry each. Mercer, having beaten 21 defenders from 50 carries, is ahead of Willis, who has beaten 12 from 33, as far as his rate of evading tackles.

Of course, one cannot ponder any single position in the back five of a pack in isolation. The question of collective balance, to cover the bases required, is paramount. Interestingly, none of these No 8s have been prominent line-out targets in the traditional sense. Across the first three rounds, only Chick (four times) and Mercer (once) have been lifted to receive the ball. Dombrandt, Mercer and Barbeary, the latter twice against Leicester Tigers, have been found in midfield by throws over the top. Club colleagues are better suited to jumping at the set piece.

Dombrandt has Jack Kenningham at Harlequins. One of Mercer’s back-row buddies is Lewis Ludlow, a line-out leader. Although Bath have been depleted by a serious hamstring injury to Ted Hill, they remain unlikely to lift the burly Barbeary. Willis has Nick Isiekwe and Theo McFarland, with Juan Martín González now at Saracens, too. In an England context, all of this means that Borthwick will probably not rely on a jumping No 8 as prolific as Taulupe Faletau or Kieran Read, unless Cunningham-South, Rogerson or Hatherell surge into the reckoning from relative obscurity. That said, Lewis Ludlam started the World Cup victory over Japan in that role and is reliable at the line-out.

Among the last actions of Earl’s superb World Cup campaign was to run the ball away from a scrum that was retreating rapidly. It was an understated, yet highly accomplished piece of skill befitting of an experienced specialist rather than a stand-in. Without it, Argentina were certain to be awarded a penalty and might have nabbed a bronze medal.

Looking longer-term, Earl is sure to be regarded as a possible No 8, though he would probably need to be complemented by a bopping carrier or a hybrid lock-flanker at blindside. Ironically, Sam Simmonds is probably the closest to Earl when it comes to profile.

Other considerations are in play. For instance, George Martin probably does not have the spring to go without two additional jumpers elsewhere in the back five. Borthwick is known to believe that Tom Pearson has the potential to improve at the line-out. In the past, Borthwick’s expertise has emboldened Tom Curry to be an auxiliary set-piece target. This allowed the combination of Curry, Sam Underhill and Vunipola to function in 2019. Speaking of Underhill, a domineering performance against the Pumas reinforced the choice available to Borthwick. Mark McCall has dizzying options as well. Earl, González and Vunipola make it three Saracens to have started a World Cup match at No 8, plus Willis.

Mercer has been ruled out of Gloucester’s visit to Sale, with his lay-off seemingly open-ended at this stage, but Barbeary will come up against Pearson and co in Northampton as Dombrandt and Chick lock horns at the Twickenham Stoop. Borthwick has already shifted his focus from the World Cup to the Six Nations and has plenty to chew over. Nailing down the identity of his No 8 is bound to be a pressing priority.

So pretty much exactly what we've all said lots of potential options which may require a tweak to the pack and back row set up.