England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

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Carried on..............

Whether we like it or not borthball was effective in a knockout tournament. The winners were hardly the Harlem Globetrotters of world rugby. Borthwicks knows the stats and the areas where tight games are won. He, unlike Jones, will aim to win the next match rather than use it to blood youth therefore we will definitely see a slow development of attacking intent rather than seismic change with high risk plays and offloads etc. Rome wasn't built in a day and we can't second guess his squad or tactics for the 6n. What we can do is get behind the team and celebrate the good things that we do. Felix Jones will hopefully be a catalyst for a winning mindset and change for the better.

Yoda wrote:Whether we like it or not borthball was effective in a knockout tournament. The winners were hardly the Harlem Globetrotters of world rugby. Borthwicks knows the stats and the areas where tight games are won. He, unlike Jones, will aim to win the next match rather than use it to blood youth therefore we will definitely see a slow development of attacking intent rather than seismic change with high risk plays and offloads etc. Rome wasn't built in a day and we can't second guess his squad or tactics for the 6n. What we can do is get behind the team and celebrate the good things that we do. Felix Jones will hopefully be a catalyst for a winning mindset and change for the better.

You talk about blooding youngsters but you can almost make a decent XV from players under 25 used by Borthwick so far.

Rodd, Dan, Heyes
Martin, Chessum
Pearson, T Willis, Curry
JVP, Smith
Lawrence, Kelly
Arundell, Steward, OHC

Ok I'm cheating a bit with Kelly because he was named in the 6N squad and then dropped out injured before he could play. Otherwise all those guys not yet turned 25 but have played under Borthwick and are primed to do so again.

He's given more youth exposure than I think he's given credit for, he knew that world cup winning squads have experience and so he lent on that a bit as he needed immediate results that weren't coming in the 6N.

That being said BillyV was obviously an error.

Can't remember him blooding Heyes tbf. Looking through that list it's a who's who of not being trusted isn't it?rodd Dan and heyes barely any minutes. Particularly surprising for Dan given George played a lot of minutes. Pearson Willis 1 cap was it then dropped. H c dropped despite not getting passes. Smith dropped as starting 10. Kelly not picked. Arundell pushed aside from the Jones days. When you set it out as you have he's really sidelined a lot of players in favour for that experience.

I don't think Jones was renowned for blooding new players, he far too often picked same old players and when out of form.

Anyway, Jones time seems a long time ago now and best consigned to history given how it ended and his post Eng career..

mountain man wrote:I don't think Jones was renowned for blooding new players, he far too often picked same old players and when out of form.

Anyway, Jones time seems a long time ago now and best consigned to history given how it ended and his post Eng career..

Well when you look at the team that Sam is saying shows Borthwick in a good light re new players how many of their debuts were given by Jones?

Jones though may have given debuts to players but then immediately dropped them. Likes of Lawrence, had a game where he received 2 passes then dropped. Then again Borthwick did that with Arundell.

Anyway, Borthwick going nowhere so that's it.

We can only judge Borthwick's selction policy based on who is actually available for the Six Nations. Mercer already looks out of contention.

There have been several sliding doors moments, with players missing out through injury, and others capitalizing. Kelly might have made a mark if he'd stayed fit but he didn't, and has to prove himself all over again. Mitchell leapfrogged Youngs and Care. May earned a starting spot after being left out. For all we know, Willis might have kept Earl out of the starting XV, and Underhill's performance may have made Borthwick reassess his potential.

mountain man wrote:Jones though may have given debuts to players but then immediately dropped them. Likes of Lawrence, had a game where he received 2 passes then dropped. Then again Borthwick did that with Arundell.

Anyway, Borthwick going nowhere so that's it.

And he did it to H C. And as pointed out alot of those younger players who had been given opportunities have then been sidelined. Yes suspect he'll have until autumn now. We may just not be able to afford to sack him now.

Either way with retirements borthers will have no choice but to get the newbies in. The young current squad members would be in a good position having seen and lived in the current set up and should step up. Continuity is important. We are two tight heads a decent scrummaging loosie, back up scrum half, two centres and a winger light imo. I hope we keep the backrow of curry, earl and Underhill as I love the energy they bring with Ludlum in reserve to target the breakdown and turn it into a strength.

Well at the moment we know the following have to be replaced

May - Retired
Youngs - Retired
Lawes - Retired
Jack Willis - Ineligible (France)
Marchant - Ineligible (France)
Ribbans - Ineligible (France)

We've heard nothing about Cole or Marler (i think theyll be persuaded to stay on even just for the 6n) and we know via Sanderson that Manu is absolutely not retiring.

We do live in hope that Borthwick realised Billy V was a bad mistake...and is ejected from the squad.

What's the squad size for a WC compared to a 6n squad...is there a difference?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Arundell pushed aside from the Jones days.

Arundell played a cumulative 29 minutes in three bench apps under Jones on that Oz tour before missing the 2022 AIs.

He got 49 minutes from Borthwick in three bench apps in R2, 3 and 4 of the Six Nations having not recovered in time for R1 after only 30 mins off the bench for LI following foot surgery. So more minutes than Jones gave him in as many bench apps having been recalled at the first chance after injury. Then he started against Ireland after those three bench apps. Then he's had a further 3 starts in the warmups and RWC.

Whether you feel Arundell should've more starts or minutes that is clearly not, "pushed aside from the Jones days". Unless you're going to claim that Arundell would've unquestionably started all the AIs if he'd been fit. Which would be a hilarious level of twisting facts to fit your view even with your hatred of Borthwick given you spent most of the end of EJs tenure complaining he never gave new players a shot.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Arundell pushed aside from the Jones days.

Arundell played a cumulative 29 minutes in three bench apps under Jones on that Oz tour before missing the 2022 AIs.

He got 49 minutes from Borthwick in three bench apps in R2, 3 and 4 of the Six Nations having not recovered in time for R1 after only 30 mins off the bench for LI following foot surgery. So more minutes than Jones gave him in as many bench apps having been recalled at the first chance after injury. Then he started against Ireland after those three bench apps. Then he's had a further 3 starts in the warmups and RWC.

Whether you feel Arundell should've more starts or minutes that is clearly not, "pushed aside from the Jones days". Unless you're going to claim that Arundell would've unquestionably started all the AIs if he'd been fit. Which would be a hilarious level of twisting facts to fit your view even with your hatred of Borthwick given you spent most of the end of EJs tenure complaining he never gave new players a shot.

Jees Louise. You really do back Borthwick for anything.

Geordie wrote:What's the squad size for a WC compared to a 6n squad...is there a difference?

There's no limit as with the RWC. Teams pick training squads and they tend to vary slightly in size depending on injury circumstances. Usually it's around a 36-man squad with some players often in camp to rehab with the national physios.

Incredibly depressingly Billy once again looked good in Sarries vs Tigers last weekend after being so dismal for England. Even Dombrandt had decent moments yesterday in a Tigers vs Quins game where many players on both sides defended like they met in the parking lot and tackled like Championship squad men who pull pints part time to make rent. It's very hard to judge form or potential relative to a rapidly progressing international game when we have a domestic comp that has regressed and is continuing to reverse at full throttle.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Arundell pushed aside from the Jones days.

Arundell played a cumulative 29 minutes in three bench apps under Jones on that Oz tour before missing the 2022 AIs.

He got 49 minutes from Borthwick in three bench apps in R2, 3 and 4 of the Six Nations having not recovered in time for R1 after only 30 mins off the bench for LI following foot surgery. So more minutes than Jones gave him in as many bench apps having been recalled at the first chance after injury. Then he started against Ireland after those three bench apps. Then he's had a further 3 starts in the warmups and RWC.

Whether you feel Arundell should've more starts or minutes that is clearly not, "pushed aside from the Jones days". Unless you're going to claim that Arundell would've unquestionably started all the AIs if he'd been fit. Which would be a hilarious level of twisting facts to fit your view even with your hatred of Borthwick given you spent most of the end of EJs tenure complaining he never gave new players a shot.

Jees Louise. You really do back Borthwick for anything.

That's not even backing Borthwick. It's just pointing out fact to someone who either ignored the facts or didn't know them.

Arundell was well set with Jones being consistently on the bench and Borthwick has moved to drop him from the bench in favour of a guy like May so far away from his peak. I mean granted Arundell isn't really a good winger for Borthwicks side but to pick him out in the team above and use it as a plus for Borthwick picking youth is a bit of a Mickey take.

Arundell was on the bench for one series under Jones and got fewer minutes than Borthwick gave him from the bench before giving him his first start. I've not said that Borthwick has backed youth. I'm just pointing out that you're ignoring the facts where it suits your argument.

Fair enough. 1 bit of a paragraph. I disagree with you that Jones would have not played him much more and placed him ahead of guys like May but that's OK by me. You could throw Freeman in there too.

Wasn't Freeman dropped by Jones for the AIs after doing well in Oz? Then he was recalled for the SA AI and had an absolute stinker. I rate Freeman though, reckon he'll play a decent number of tests.

Don't think Freeman exactly set the word alight,don't think he's a great winger personally,bit formulaic but still young. He may get a chance eventually but surely more a full back,in an ever widening pool.

Tb be fair Freeman would be a miles better winger for Borthwick than Arundell would though.

27 tries in last 33 prem games - not that great?

Then again doesn’t really matter who plays wing for this England team.

I think Arundell is a serious talent but he's not the right guy for this England team unless it changes how it plays. It would have been great to see him at 15 when he's going to be running the ball back and going to get more space to work with, but such is life. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see him play for England for years.

Guys who are naturally fantastic in attack can round out there game. May did it. LRZ is a perfect example more recently. Some of his positioning, tackling, high ball and kick chase work were really poor early on. He's one of the best chasers going now and his high ball work is solid. There's no reason Arundell can't improve those areas. Playing for Racing in an actually high level comp for a year should certainly help.

Scottrf wrote:27 tries in last 33 prem games - not that great?

Then again doesn’t really matter who plays wing for this England team.

If its any consolation I don't think Malins is a great winger either.

So who would you replace these with in your squad?

May - Roebuck / Murley?
Youngs - Warr
Lawes - ??
Jack Willis - Pearson
Marchant - Atkinson
Ribbans - Isiekwe, Tizard, Coles, A.N.Other?

And....
Billy V - T.Willis

I see Arundel is starting on the wing for Racing tonight v Toulon...

Geordie wrote:So who would you replace these with in your squad?

May - Roebuck / Murley?
Youngs - Warr
Lawes - ??
Jack Willis - Pearson
Marchant - Atkinson
Ribbans - Isiekwe, Tizard, Coles, A.N.Other?

And....
Billy V - T.Willis

Hammond at Quins has started the season well, big lad and a good lineout jumper. Young lad making his mark. Would fit in with the remaining three from the world cup.

Geordie wrote:I see Arundel is starting on the wing for Racing tonight v Toulon...

Hatrick on debut in a losing cause. One really good finish from just outside the 22. One showing his pace chasing a well weighted grubber through. One beating the final man with his power and pace.

Two Toulon tries on his wing from not great bits of defence as well on the downside. One with Toulon attacking a short side close to the line, Arundell bites in on a hard line that is definitely covered by his inside man which hangs Max Spring out to dry outside him, Toulon go over by a simple through the hands. The other is a break around halfway. Toulon went wide from kick return with numbers, Arundell is in the backfield, seems caught between hanging back and trying to push them to the touchline or rushing up and putting pressure on a pass. He ends up doing neither and a chip goes behind him easily and he gets beaten to the ball whilst turning. 

Baptiste Serin did a good job of finding grass when box kicking to Arundell at times too with his positioning slightly off at times.

An incredible talent with the ball but clearly learning the game off the ball. Playing in the Top 14 should help him a lot. He had Fickou and Spring as players either side of him today. Then Nayacalevu and Tuicuvu against him in attack with Serin pulling the strings. It's a proper league.

Geordie wrote:So who would you replace these with in your squad?

May - Roebuck / Murley?
Youngs - Warr
Lawes - ??
Jack Willis - Pearson
Marchant - Atkinson
Ribbans - Isiekwe, Tizard, Coles, A.N.Other?

And....
Billy V - T.Willis

Isiekwe looked promising when he was first capped at whatever ridiculously young age it was, but he's never looked up to much when he's had a chance with England since.

Geordie wrote:So who would you replace these with in your squad?

May - Roebuck / Murley?

May (33) came in for an injured Anthony Watson (29). Watson has recently decided to rejoin Leicester, so is still available for England.

I still think given the tactics, there aren't many better around than O'Flaherty.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still think given the tactics, there aren't many better around than O'Flaherty.

I remain surprised he wasn't seriously looked at in this RWC cycle, but given he's 29, uncapped and we've 4 years to go to the next RWC, I'd be surprised if he gets his chance now. I'd expect England to look more towards players who will be at their peak in 2027.

4 years is a long way off and his priority will be to win the 6Ns. Honestly is there anyone better at the moment than O'Flaherty available to us?

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:So who would you replace these with in your squad?

May - Roebuck / Murley?
Youngs - Warr
Lawes - ??
Jack Willis - Pearson
Marchant - Atkinson
Ribbans - Isiekwe, Tizard, Coles, A.N.Other?

And....
Billy V - T.Willis

Isiekwe looked promising when he was first capped at whatever ridiculously young age it was, but he's never looked up to much when he's had a chance with England since.

Well Isiekwe is looking very good so far this season...big, powerful and his lineout work looks top drawer. And hes only 25....

It will be a lock who can do the basics right...and he can...so i wouldnt be surprised if he is selected. Im still not sure on Tizard. I dont think theres any of the kids like Lewis Chessum ready yet even for an A game... bar maybe Ruis Tuima from exter who i would play in the England A match.

So its likely Isieke v Maybe Alex Coles (but is he what SB would be looking for)

No 7&1/2 wrote:4 years is a long way off and his priority will be to win the 6Ns. Honestly is there anyone better at the moment than O'Flaherty available to us?

Anthony Watson

Going off topic, Henry Arundell grabbed headlines with his hat trick on debut for Racing. Meanwhile, two players who were never really in contention for England have also been doing well in France. Joe Simmonds is currently the leading scorer in the Top14, while Zack Henry scored 21 points in Stade's win over Lyon.

https://twitter.com/olbceltics/status/1723685573364236621

If Watson is fit...then absolutely...on his day hes the best...but at what stage do we say hes reliability is an issue and look towards a younger option with a high ceiling.

Arundle is in a great place this season...and his game will improve hugely. Murley is a cracking winger...id have him in the squad. Your not losing any pace with him either! OHC im not so sure about now.

I'm not even sure Watson is as good at O'Flaherty at kick chase. Think he's the best in the prem comfortably.

Not all about kick chase...

He's good defensively too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's good defensively too.

So i Murley..

Murley isn't great at chasing kicks though, he's not bad exactly but why would you want guys whose strengths lie elsewhere? Like picking Glen Hoddle to play centre back.

Is he not?

I think hes fine...and hes fast and direct...so given instructions to chase i cant see how he wouldnt be good at it?

All wingers kick chase...all wingers have to tackle....all wingers have to do the dirty defensive and grafting work...its not all about running with the ball. In fact the majority of a wingers work at international level would be that...

But i bet you blame SB for that also.

All players do everything, but all to a different degree of success. O'Flaherty to me would be the perfect pick for Borthwick, I really don't think Murley is anywhere near him, you seriously think he is? Him Roebuck, Watson fighting it out for the wing spots is about as good as it gets at the moment surely? Not against that the view that a wingers job is about the nitty gritty, it's why I'm saying they would be the better picks.

The only good thing about these disagreements is the fact  that it shows we have choices. It's not like we have to select someone because they are the only option. All this debate over wingers is academic if we can't find new props who can scrummage against the best in the world.

No 7&1/2 wrote:All players do everything, but all to a different degree of success. O'Flaherty to me would be the perfect pick for Borthwick, I really don't think Murley is anywhere near him, you seriously think he is? Him Roebuck, Watson fighting it out for the wing spots is about as good as it gets at the moment surely? Not against that the view that a wingers job is about the nitty gritty, it's why I'm saying they would be the better picks.

As a winger...yes i think hes ahead of O'Flaherty...hes a proven top level try scorer...scored more than O'Flaherty i think at prem level already and hes 5 years younger.

Roebuck is just starting out and needs to prove himself...and Watson needs to stay fit.

Yoda wrote:The only good thing about these disagreements is the fact  that it shows we have choices. It's not like we have to select someone because they are the only option. All this debate over wingers is academic if we can't find new props who can scrummage against the best in the world.

And suitably start to develop an attack that gives them the ball in attacking situations.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:All players do everything, but all to a different degree of success. O'Flaherty to me would be the perfect pick for Borthwick, I really don't think Murley is anywhere near him, you seriously think he is? Him Roebuck, Watson fighting it out for the wing spots is about as good as it gets at the moment surely? Not against that the view that a wingers job is about the nitty gritty, it's why I'm saying they would be the better picks.

As a winger...yes i think hes ahead of O'Flaherty...hes a proven top level try scorer...scored more than O'Flaherty i think at prem level already and hes 5 years younger.

Roebuck is just starting out and needs to prove himself...and Watson needs to stay fit.

Overall yes, but I'm talking about fitting into this system.

But your assuming the system will rigidly stay the same....?

I dont see that. It wont be rapid it will be a slow evolving shift....

Well assume its a slow evolving shift, there's going to be a lot of kick chases in the 6Ns, would a guy who is the best in the league like O'Flaherty be a better choice than a winger like Arundell whose strengths lie elsewhere, the aim being winning the 6Ns?

There will be lots of kicks...and i would still back Murley to perform that duty well when given instructions.

Thats a basics requirement for all good wingers and Murley is one.

Not sure where you've suddenly just plucked O'Flaherty out from anyway...never been in the discussions before..and wouldnt be in my discussions.

Cos he's the best at it.