England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Carried on..............

Poorfour wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Would pairing him with Marler do much given they wouldn't be on the pitch at the same time unless something goes very wrong?!

I meant in the XXIII

Would it do much to help I meant though given they would be subbing on/off with each other? I guess there's the mentorship element. Just not sure how much it would aid much by both being in the match day 23 given they'd be on at different points.

Not that I don't rate Baxter. He's a quality talent. Given Rodd's scrummaging has clear work ons I wouldn't be opposed to Baxter having a shot. I'd narrowly favour Rodd myself as he was there for the RWC and offers breakdown work none of our other props currently do.

That's for the bench shirt if Genge were injured. Personally I'd be sticking with Marler to start, Genge bench if both are fit. Get the best side out and win game now is very much my view.

If Freeman keeps doing well there's a possibility of a backline with a ton of positional flexibility.

9.Mitchell 10.Ford/Smith 11.Freeman 12.Lawrence/Tuilagi 13.Daly 14.Arundell 15.Steward

If Smith started there'd be 5 players there with FB experience.

A winger with 13 experience is really interesting if England keep playing halfbacks and Steward deep for kick tennis. You could potentially use Freeman as a short side defensive captain, Daly on the openside. A bit like Dupont calling the shots the short side for France in defence. 13 is the toughest channel defensively these days. Basically use Daly and Freeman to hold the width on either side of the ruck.

Then one of the halfbacks, Steward and Arundell in the backfield. One very strong kicker, Steward for the highballs and Arundell as a threat for loose kicks.

Arundell is unavailable for this 6n now unless he signs for a peem club.  Bath have offered jum a huge deal apparently...and could be a hybrid.  

I see SB is closely watching Barbeary...with so many back rowers out...he could be England's 8 for the 6n.

Freeman scores two again...

Geordie wrote:Arundell is unavailable for this 6n now unless he signs for a peem club.  Bath have offered jum a huge deal apparently...and could be a hybrid.  

I see SB is closely watching Barbeary...with so many back rowers out...he could be England's 8 for the 6n.

Freeman scores two again...

I've been watching Freeman at centre with interest. We've got a lot outside backs to choose from and he was/is at risk of falling by the wayside, but he has all of the physical attributes to be a superb outside centre. I loved the way his speed allowed him to martial the Glasgow attack last night, he didn't panic because he knew he could slide across. It was very encouraging.

"I've been watching Freeman at centre with interest. We've got a lot outside backs to choose from and he was/is at risk of falling by the wayside, but he has all of the physical attributes to be a superb outside centre. I loved the way his speed allowed him to martial the Glasgow attack last night, he didn't panic because he knew he could slide across. It was very encouraging."

I said something very similar in a previous post, he has only played a handful of games it 13 and seems to have mastered the hardest part of the position, defending the outside channel, He restricts the opposition on what they can do as unless they have worked an overlap he will get his man or the winger if he passes early. He also has the physicality (hate that word, overused) to dominate his opposite number and a really good offloading game that Sleightholme seems to be feeding on. 16+ stone with his pace and acceleration is hard to stop dead, especially if a bit of footwork is included.

Freeman is looking really good at 13. Something a bit Jamie Roberts about how he's made the switch so quickly and looks at home. It seems to really suit his strengths similar to Roberts.

That ability JJ had to blitz hard but still cover the outside arc due to his pace was absolutely vital to England's defence under Gustard when they won back to back Six Nations in '16 and '17. Freeman seems to have a similar ability and he's a unit.

I'll be interested to see if anything comes from the Gustard rumour. It got swiftly deleted but it'd be unusual for the Torygraph's rugby team to publish something completely false. They've had 'leaks' with the England team across multiple coaching teams now. It's surely one of those mutually beneficial relationships between a board and press. If leaks are going to filter out anyway then you might as well do it in a way you can control. Either someone they used to trust sold them some complete s***e or part of England's side of that mutually beneficial relationship asked them to get rid of a story with some substance until it's signed and sealed.

Stade have the lowest points conceded in the Top 14 this season. Only 3 points better than Racing with 153 conceded by Stade to 156 for Racing. There's then a bigger gap from those two to La Rochelle and Pau though. Gustard has always been a superb defence coach even if stepping up didn't work out at Quins. He worked very well with Borthwick before as well. He's successfully coached very different defensive systems as the game has adapted too.

If Freeman was to continue at 13 and remain as impressive would you give him a run out off the bench v Italy?

It gives you a dilema with Lawrence. Do you move Lawrence to 12? You also have Will Joseph putting in some good performances...there's definitely talent coming through...SB needs to get it right.

Poorfour wrote:If Borthwick thinks Baxter is ready, I could see a lot of value for England in using the opportunity to pair him with Marler, at least for the opening couple of matches until Genge is fully fit.

The bigger question is how we bring the next generation of tightheads through.

Do you rate Painter much? Does he have a chance? Does Trevor Davison get another look in or Hill...or does he run with the World Cup trio of tightheads....

I think Beno Obano is quietly working his way into contention.  At 29 he is in his propping prime, could see him being a decent contributor to this world cup cycle. Obviously still a loosie though.

If not for injury Obano would likely have more caps by now even with LH being strong. When fit he tended to get a look in Jones' squads quickly. He only just came back at the start of the Six Nations after his latest layoff last season. He was looked at in the summer camps after a run with Bath. I was a big fan early on when he broke through as Bath's starter. Just mashed people in contact because he's basically square. A lot of fun to watch.

I've never been fully convinced by his scrummaging. I'll watch him one weak and he dominates, then another and he seems to struggle. Might just be my perception or potentially a technical weakness some THs exploit better than others. A bit like Joe Heyes scrummaging with his feet a long way back for instance. Certainly no weaker there than Rodd, though Rodd is younger of course.

Genge and Marler are clearly a notch above the chasing pack to my eyes. Then there's Rodd, Obano and VRR depending on availability. Then Baxter and Brantingham who are just starting out but look talented. It's a good place to be with Marler available again.

I think it's going to be interesting who SB decides will be his new Captain. Farrell's made himself unavailable, Tom Curry's on the operating table, Courtney has retired, Genge is currently broken and might be a doubt if he doesn't respond to treatment (I haven't been impressed with his England Captaincy anyway - he seems a bit disconnected from the players, and doesn't seem to know how to talk to the ref).

I suppose the more obvious players would be George, Itoje and Ford. I suppose that we're all clutching at straws anyway as SB will have his ideas anyway, but I'm looking forward to see who he picks.

I have a feeling Ford might get it. He's very vocal around the group already, being 30 means he's got a decent shot at the next RWC, will be around for a few years either way. It'd add another leader to the group regardless of if Curry, Farrell or someone else gets the gig longer term as well. Seems a reasonable call both now and thinking forward.

I'd really like to see how Itoje would do with the role with the potential of him keeping it longer term. He just hasn't seemed interested in captaincy at any level since the U20s and skippering Sarries to the AWC in his first full senior season. If he were interested at all I'd be astonished if he wouldn't have done it a decent amount for Sarries at some point now. Even with Barritt, Hargreaves and Farrell being club captains in that time. McCall has tended to use a lot of different players as matchday skippers. He seems very much from the "leadership group" mould with his teams.

I think George would do a decent job but he's 33 and realistically needs his minutes coming down if possible!

Telegraph says Arundell will turn down the Bath/RFU deal and stay with Racing.

As he has been in negotiations for a hybrid contract, this decision will apparently mean he will not be allowed to play the Six Nations.

Well that's s**t news.

Not sure if Arundell enjoyed himself much during the RWC, except for the Chile game. He wasn't on the right wavelength with Farrell and there are definitely things to work on to make him a more complete player.

You want to see guys like him develop in our system, but I wouldn't be surprised that he'll do better learning his trade in France, just as long as he comes back in a couple of years.

French reports reckon Arundell has extended his contract for two years. Not sure whether that means he is signed for this season and next, or two more seasons in addition to the current one. It sounds a bit like the second.

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2023/12/09/transferts-top-14-information-midi-olympique-henry-arundell-prolonge-au-racing-92-11632192.php

Allez savoir… Alors qu’il était courtisé par Bath et Gloucester, deux gros bras du Premiership, l’international anglais Henry Arundell (21 ans, 10 sélections) aurait selon nos informations décidé de prolonger son contrat de deux saisons supplémentaires avec le Racing 92

Well we have loads of young wingers....means Arundell can develop over there and hopefully come back in 2 years at 22 or 23 and be a developed winger or full back.

Disappointing but understandable from Arundell. You need to make sure you're getting the best deals.financially and he's definitely not guaranteed to.play for England. If he's enjoying his rugby over there even more reason to stick with it. We have Malins anyway.

It's disappointing if Arundell has made himself unavialable for England but maybe not entirely surprising. Borthwick obviously didn't rate him in RWC so if he's not going to be picked for 6N and on Arundell probably thinks he's better off in France.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Disappointing but understandable from Arundell. You need to make sure you're getting the best deals.financially and he's definitely not guaranteed to.play for England. If he's enjoying his rugby over there even more reason to stick with it. We have Malins anyway.

I know that's tongue in cheek but i honestly hope we don't see him in an England shirt again.

We have...(not limited to)
Reed
Roebuck
Murley
Radwan
Sleightholme
Freeman (though maybe 13s his future)
Hassle Collins

And maybe slightly further out...
Thorley
Cokasaniga
Nick David
Iwan Stephens (unless he decides on Wales)

We can afford to let Arundell develop under Lancaster and hopefully come back in a few years...when the revamped Prem and Championship is flourishing...

Arundell is one of those special players so whether he gets picked now or in the future he's going to have a great career with a bit of luck. I don't rate Malins for England but its not really tongue in cheek as I think this England team probably benefits for having Malins there over Arundell or several of those players you list.

Looking back several players really benefitted from having Lancaster as a coach so yes will be great to see how he comes on. He's bound to score 4 today and really put the rfu under the microscope.

I'd rather have Daly than Malins..if we're looking at a playmaker out there.

The more interesting one for ke is the centres.

Assuming it's Mitchell and Ford are the half backs....who does he pick.

Atkinson is probably the leading contender for 12...abd Lawrence is on fire at the moment...but a late charger is Freeman. Need to see if the move becomes permanent and if he can keep up the form. He brings something very differn5 with his size and pace.

Maybe a bench option for Oraly?

9 Mitchell
10 Ford
11 Daly
12 Atkinson
13 Lawrence
14 Murley
15 Steward

Geordie wrote:I'd rather have Daly than Malins..if we're looking at a playmaker out there.

So would I.

Geordie wrote:The more interesting one for ke is the centres.  

Assuming it's Mitchell and Ford are the half backs....who does he pick.  

Atkinson is probably the leading contender for 12...abd Lawrence is on fire at the moment...but a late charger is Freeman.  Need to see if the move becomes permanent and if he can keep up the form.  He brings something very differn5 with his size and pace.

Maybe a bench option for Oraly?

9 Mitchell
10 Ford
11 Daly
12 Atkinson
13 Lawrence
14 Murley
15 Steward

Is this a wish list or prediction?

I would like to see how Hendy goes in the wider squad, winger or full back. He is like Steward in that he is tall (6'3"), gets up very high jumping for the ball and is a solid catcher. Everything that Steward is, I hear you say, Hendy is also a stone lighter.

He is also one of the fastest players in the Saints squad, gave Murley a 10 m start in chasing back for the ball last week, had overtaken him in 40-50m. He runs the ball back very well and is a bit like May used to be, he can hit that outside arc and blast through a defence..

I an not saying he is ready to be capped yet, but it would be very interesting so see how he went within the wider squad, he appears to be a very quick learner.

Just looked him up on the Saints website, apparently he played a lot of his junior rugby and fly half and centre, before going to full back. some useful skills there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:The more interesting one for ke is the centres.  

Assuming it's Mitchell and Ford are the half backs....who does he pick.  

Atkinson is probably the leading contender for 12...abd Lawrence is on fire at the moment...but a late charger is Freeman.  Need to see if the move becomes permanent and if he can keep up the form.  He brings something very differn5 with his size and pace.

Maybe a bench option for Oraly?

9 Mitchell
10 Ford
11 Daly
12 Atkinson
13 Lawrence
14 Murley
15 Steward

Is this a wish list or prediction?

Bit of both...I predict 9,10, 11, 14, 15.....but can't think how SB will go with the centres. He can't ignore Lawrence...but he's likely to go for Manu at 12 (disappointinly)..although is he injured again?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I would like to see how Hendy goes in the wider squad, winger or full back. He is like Steward in that he is tall (6'3"), gets up very high jumping for the ball and is a solid catcher. Everything that Steward is, I hear you say, Hendy is also a stone lighter.

He is also one of the fastest players in the Saints squad, gave Murley a 10 m start in chasing back for the ball last week, had overtaken him in 40-50m. He runs the ball back very well and is a bit like May used to be, he can hit that outside arc and blast through a defence..

I an not saying he is ready to be capped yet, but it would be very interesting so see how he went within the wider squad, he appears to be a very quick learner.

Just looked him up on the Saints website, apparently he played a lot of his junior rugby and fly half and centre, before going to full back. some useful skills there.

There's so many coming through..its actually quite exciting   I like Nick David the quins winger / full back...

Going to be great watching them all develop and see who Comes through the bsst.....

Then there's josh Hodge to come back aswell

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:The more interesting one for ke is the centres.  

Assuming it's Mitchell and Ford are the half backs....who does he pick.  

Atkinson is probably the leading contender for 12...abd Lawrence is on fire at the moment...but a late charger is Freeman.  Need to see if the move becomes permanent and if he can keep up the form.  He brings something very differn5 with his size and pace.

Maybe a bench option for Oraly?

9 Mitchell
10 Ford
11 Daly
12 Atkinson
13 Lawrence
14 Murley
15 Steward

Is this a wish list or prediction?

Bit of both...I predict 9,10,  11, 14, 15.....but can't think how SB will go with the centres. He can't ignore Lawrence...but he's likely to go for Manu at 12 (disappointinly)..although is he injured again?

I can see tuilagi and slade in midefield. Watson or malins on the wing.

mountain man wrote:Borthwick obviously didn't rate him in RWC

He did rate him, as he was selected for the squad.

mountain man wrote:It's disappointing if Arundell has made himself unavialable for England but maybe not entirely surprising. Borthwick obviously didn't rate him in RWC so if he's not going to be picked for 6N and on Arundell probably thinks he's better off in France.

Not only was he picked for the RWC squad he played in a couple of games including the bronze place match. More than Malins got selected.

Arundell's basics were a bit suspect which hampered his selection and our attack hasn't able to provide him any service but his continued inclusion felt like Borthwick wanted him involved as he was eying up a future with him in the squad.

Rugby Fan wrote:

mountain man wrote:Borthwick obviously didn't rate him in RWC

He did rate him, as he was selected for the squad.

But hardly played him, there were games which cried out for a player of his ability but Borthwick picked May and Daly. I also don't think it's a coincidence he might be turning back on Eng career for a few years.
However as ever, none of us really know what goes in within England camp.

Inconsequential games. I think Borthwick realised he wasn't really the winger he wanted in real games.

Are people not going OTT?

He's potential....but so is Murley...so is Roebuck, etc.

People say he's x factor...we'll I've seen murley and Roebuck etc do some pretty exciting things aswell.

Not in the same league.

Well see.

What has Arundell got that the others haven't...is it his sheer pace? Because in all honesty thats all I've sene from him.

Rugby Fan wrote:French reports reckon Arundell has extended his contract for two years. Not sure whether that means he is signed for this season and next, or two more seasons in addition to the current one. It sounds a bit like the second.

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2023/12/09/transferts-top-14-information-midi-olympique-henry-arundell-prolonge-au-racing-92-11632192.php

Allez savoir… Alors qu’il était courtisé par Bath et Gloucester, deux gros bras du Premiership, l’international anglais Henry Arundell (21 ans, 10 sélections) aurait selon nos informations décidé de prolonger son contrat de deux saisons supplémentaires avec le Racing 92

Reports are until 2026. So a two season extension after the current contract.

Given that Willis was available for the RWC it's a surprise that Arundell isn't for this Six Nations as he's still on the first contract he signed after LI went under. Same as Willis was for the RWC. We knew Willis had signed a second contract for after the RWC. Opaque as ever.

Arundell was picked for every Six Nations game he was available for including starting away in Ireland. Then he was in the RWC squad. So he clearly is rated. He hadn't started a pro game on the wing before the Ireland trip so he was learning positioning out there and that was very obvious off the ball at times. Despite that he was still picked ahead of Murley and Cokanasiga for the RWC squad. He got more minutes than Malins at the RWC too. He'd seemingly moved ahead of Malins from the Ireland game onwards. Then May's retired of course. I think he was well set to play in the Six Nations.

Opoku-Fordjour is going to get capped soon.

Tuilagis looking very good too. And Bamber if you like your 6 foot 9 locks. Ford less so.

Fordjpur needs to learn to pass.

Been keeping an eye on Bamber for a while..former rugby league Huddersfield...he's a huge lad

Geordie wrote:Fordjpur needs to learn to pass.

Ha. Yes he blew that try scoring opportunity after picking up the ball off his laces. Massively impressive prop.

He just looks small...he must be so powerful.

I think the opportunity for players to go to France, and potentially combined with those hybrid contracts (or whatever they are called, if they ever happen) creates an interesting dynamic for player negotiations with their Premiership clubs and, potentially, England/RFU.  English players now have more negotiating power, not just for compensation but also for game time with club and/or country.  This may have played a part in Arundell's negotiations - who knows?

And if these multi-owner contracts (club + RFU) actually come to pass, will players have to negotiate separately with club and the RFU?  And then how would it work without confusing the pish out of everyone?  Even if the RFU initially offer only fixed compensation monetarily equal for all players, there are a lot of other things about which they can compromise:  training time, days off, meals, positions, even down to running certain plays.  Same applies to negotiations with the clubs.  And what if the end of the negotiations have different results?  

Most pro athletes in other major sport have many of these kinds of restrictions built into their contracts.  But this is certainly unusual for England players to have this, or much of any, kind of leverage, and if the players are smart, they should use their advantage to the absolute max.

Geordie wrote:He just looks small...he must be so powerful.  

His scrum work looks good so far so he's clearly got power. He might fill out a bit more over the next two years naturally.

He looked good at age grade level and now seems to be making the step up. Give him a couple of years and he should be around the England camp. Perhaps Borthwick will send Harrison up to Sale periodically to keep tabs on him.

So, some really good results, but who impressed this weekend? Lots to choose from IMO.

Northampton: Tommy Freeman, Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith were all good.
Bath: Ben Spencer and Alfie Barbeary were very good.
Harlequins: Could pick a whole host; Smith, Evans, Joseph, Care and Dombrandt all looked good.
Sale: didn't see too much of the game.
Bristol: Ibitoye continues to look good.
Saracens: a bit Meh.
Leicester: Similarly underwhelming, but Shillcock gets my vote for that pass.
Exeter: I think it was a team performance, but I liked what I saw of Cairns

From the players playing abroad, was a bit disappointed by Arundell. The open nature of the game seemed made for him, but he didn't really come to the party.

13 is getting interesting...Lawrence,  Wil Joseph and Freeman

12..Manu back today played the full 80...haven't seen how Seb Atkinson went this weekend or if he played. And is Lawrence going to be moved to 12?

Dingwall is playing very well also...but is he even in the equation...

And after tonight's performance..just give the 10 shirt to Smith for the 6n.

Geordie wrote:And after tonight's performance..just give the 10 shirt to Smith for the 6n.

Agreed, I'd have both Smiths and Ford in the squad. I just want to stop the Scots sniffing around Fin, think he will certainly get into the 'A' Team. I think Lawrence will make himself more attractive as an option if he has the flexibility to play both 12 & 13 competently.

s