1st QF Wales v Argentina - Stade de Marseille

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Wales: 15. Liam Williams, 14. Louis Rees Zammit, 13. George North, 12. Nick Tompkins, 11. Josh Adams, 10. Dan Biggar, 9. Gareth Davies, 1. Gareth Thomas, 2. Ryan Elias, 3. Tomas Francis, 4. Will Rowlands, 5. Adam Beard, 6. Jac Morgan (capt), 7. Tommy Reffell, 8. Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: 16. Dewi Lake, 17. Corey Domachowski, 18. Dillon Lewis, 19. Dafydd Jenkins, 20. Christ Tshiunza, 21. Tomos Williams, 22. Sam Costelow, 23. Rio Dyer.

Argentina: 1 Thomas Gallo, 2 Julian Montoya (c), 3 Francisco Gómez Kodela, 4 Guido Petti Pagadizabal, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 6 Juan Martin Gonzalez, 7 Marcos Kremer, 8 Facundo Isa, 9 Tomas Cubelli, 10 Santiago Carreras, 11 Mateo Carreras, 12 Santiago Chocobares, 13 Lucio Cinti, 14 Emiliano Boffelli, 15 Juan Cruz Mallia.

Replacements: 16 Agustín Creevy, 17 Joel Sclavi, 18 Eduardo Bello, 19 Matias Alemanno, 20 Rodrigo Bruni, 21 Lautaro Bazan Velez, 22 Nicolas Sanchez, 23 Matías Moroni.

Referee: Jaco Peyper TMO: Marius Jonker

Assistant referees: Karl Dickson (England) and Andrea Piardi (Italy)

Old Man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Understand what Kay is saying however it's jot up to refs to change the laws. Under the laws that's a penalty at the very very least.

No it's not.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/guidelines/26

Under the guidelines it's; is there head contact? = yes. Is there foul play? = Dickson deems no. Therefore play on.

So it's just Dickson incorrectly applying laws again. Fair enough.

Well foul play suggests the Argentina play has done something wrong. He's bent at the waist (always low), he wraps. The only reason there's head contact is that Tomkins drops in height significantly before contact and with a speed with which the Argentina player cannot react.

What do you think the Argentina player did wrong?

Hes barely bent. Always going to be close to high.reckless. it's just another Dickson event to his ever growing highlight reel.

Go back and watch again, he's bent a long way. Tomkins is on his knees at the point of contact. Reckless is subjective. If that doesn't make contact with the head it's an absolutely standard clearout. So reckless I'm not sure.

It's sympathetic reffing.

Very sympathetic. Wrong. But sympathetic.

Prove that it's incorrect. As PoorFour says head contact isn't automatically foul play. He's low and he's wrapped. It's an acceptable reaction given the picture on front of him.

I thought that was good refereeing, what one might call a rugby incident. Anywaynot the reason Wales lost

The speed he came in with not looking always reckless.

Duty281 wrote:That shoulder to head is something that gets called as a penalty 99% of the time. The drop from the Welsh player would be the mitigation that would usually take it down to yellow. Would Peyper have seen it the same way? We'll never know.

That’s not how it works. The drop is mitigation *if* there has been foul play. Lavanini was adjudged not to have committed foul play, so mitigation doesn’t come into it. Dickson’s view (which Jonker clearly affirmed) was that Lavanini was in a legal position, making a legal clearout and could not have anticipated Tomkins falling into his path. If he was always legal, it’s not foul play. If it’s not foul play, it’s not even a penalty and cards don’t ever enter into the equation.

Similar situations do typically result in cards, but when that happens the player making contact is in an illegal position to begin with.

Reckless from the Argie. Again, I think Arg were better overall. Always worse going out at this stage than any other stage in the competition though.

Poorfour wrote:

Duty281 wrote:That shoulder to head is something that gets called as a penalty 99% of the time. The drop from the Welsh player would be the mitigation that would usually take it down to yellow. Would Peyper have seen it the same way? We'll never know.

That’s not how it works. The drop is mitigation *if* there has been foul play. Lavanini was adjudged not to have committed foul play, so mitigation doesn’t come into it. Dickson’s view (which Jonker clearly affirmed) was that Lavanini was in a legal position, making a legal clearout and could not have anticipated Tomkins falling into his path. If he was always legal, it’s not foul play. If it’s not foul play, it’s not even a penalty and cards don’t ever enter into the equation.

Similar situations do typically result in cards, but when that happens the player making contact is in an illegal position to begin with.

Yes, that's why I said the drop in height is *usually* the mitigation that takes it down to yellow.

TMOs rarely, if ever, dissent from the view of the on-field referee. Obviously, Jonker thought it must have been foul play in the first place otherwise he wouldn't have drawn Dickson's attention to it.

Duty281 wrote:TMOs rarely, if ever, dissent from the view of the on-field referee. Obviously, Jonker thought it must have been foul play in the first place otherwise he wouldn't have drawn Dickson's attention to it.

Jonker said “I need you to look at head contact of blue 4 on red 12” when alerting Dickson, and at the end said something like “Yes, I don’t see anything different. I just wanted to have you explain it.”

I interpreted it as him seeing a potentially divisive incident and wanting to give the on-field ref a chance to pass judgement on it. Of all the TMOs, Jonker is one of the most willing to press his case (note his insistence that Steward had a clear line of sight and time to react for his subsequently rescinded red card), and the fact that he didn’t push for a card at all is a pretty strong indication that he didn’t think it warranted one.

Unlucky Wales. Let Argentina back into the game just before half time.
Unfortunate line out malfunction and a couple of poor decisions cost you.
But Argentina looked the best they have all tournament.

Sad end to Biggars time in a Wales shirt, but he's had a great international career.

Pretty evenly matched side, hard luck Wales. It stings Im sure. Decent campaign.

Poor Costelow. It's always a bit heart breaking seeing such a young player looking crestfallen after a high profile error such as that. He's a talent though, I'm sure he'll be back.

king_carlos wrote:Poor Costelow. It's always a bit heart breaking seeing such a young player looking crestfallen after a high profile error such as that. He's a talent though, I'm sure he'll be back.

He can't be blamed for the loss and he looks like he should be a fantastic player.
I'm sure the senior players will let him know it's not on him.

Been at the pub so haven’t read any comments. Full congrats to Argentina. We can’t expect to win playing like that. Completely threw the game away. They weren’t great but we just capitulated. Weak bench didn’t help either and we couldn’t claw it back.

Dickson - terrible call but not why we lost.

Arg - all the best for the semis.

Argentina are not going to trouble the big boys, but they should be pleased with their tournament, especially after not turning up for their first match against England.

BigGee wrote:Argentina are not going to trouble the big boys, but they should be pleased with their tournament, especially after not turning up for their first match against England.

I think England also turned up for that game though. Argentina get frustrated when they don't win the physical battle up front and England denied them that (helped by the fact the Puma forwards attacked narrow). Ford controlling territory only added to that. Wales in the first quarter were good at denying them that momentum and got the rewards. As the game wore on and the Welsh forwards tired Argentina were able to build momentum and get their tails up. Subbing Reffell in hindsight was a bad call, the Morgan/Reffell combination really frustrated the Pumas and Wales didn't have the personnel to pivot from that strategy to dominating the contact area.

I think we were already losing the breakdown battle as well as the aerial one. If Wales don’t get those then we usually lose. That’s the drawback of a simple game plan. The lineouts and knock-ons didn’t help.

BigGee wrote:Argentina are not going to trouble the big boys, but they should be pleased with their tournament, especially after not turning up for their first match against England.

Genuinely one of the worst tier 1 performances I've ever seen (Argentina against England) . They seem to be able to navigate world cups well, but It beggars belief that this Argentina side is in a semi final, they've been awful.

I don't think the Welsh defense coped well at all with the Argentinian running game. The Argentinian runners always made ground, and Wales didn't get the turnovers that would otherwise have blunted that attack.