Scotland vs England | The Calcutta Cup

glaws wrote:Not really a shock though, this is what happens when you pick players from Bath, Quins and Sarries who only care about their bank balances. Them 3 plus Wasps before they thankfully went bust are the reason English rugby is in a mess due to their greed and corruption I’m afraid, just a pity those 3 didn’t go the same way instead of Irish, Worcester and Jersey.

doctor_grey wrote:Scotland were very good, turning sk!t ball into gold.  VDM is very, very good.  But very much a team win.

So England change players and manage to score only 21 points.  Clearly not all on the players....  

I know I shouldn't do this in the immediate aftermath of the game, but for the next game, I would select:
The same front row, at least for 10-20 minutes (OK more than 20, just a little joke)
Same second row
Back row 6 Martin, 7 CCS, 8 Earl
Scrum half:  Mauro Bergamesco (doom on England).  It's easy to see the value Mitchell adds.  I suppose Spencer has to start, but gawd, he is so slow.
Fly half:  could go either way, but despite everything he does well, Ford is not a difference maker now
11:  IFW (no doubts)
12: Lawrence was not great but did push the defense back with ball in hand.  Just don't make a break and try to pass.
13:  Slade (could easily go Freeman)
14:  Freeman (could be Daly)
15:  Furbank (needs another start - hopefully with Fin at 10)

One of the American tv commentators offered the thought that England's biggest problem was the game plan.  As in he was having trouble figuring out what they were actually trying to do.  Almost seemed they were trying to attack aggressively but had no plan B when something didn't work.  Good example was when England were doing well earlier in the game and Care kicked the ball into touch, killing any momentum.      

doctor_grey wrote:Scotland were very good, turning sk!t ball into gold.  VDM is very, very good.  But very much a team win.

So England change players and manage to score only 21 points.  Clearly not all on the players....  

I know I shouldn't do this in the immediate aftermath of the game, but for the next game, I would select:
The same front row, at least for 10-20 minutes (OK more than 20, just a little joke)
Same second row
Back row 6 Martin, 7 CCS, 8 Earl
Scrum half:  Mauro Bergamesco (doom on England).  It's easy to see the value Mitchell adds.  I suppose Spencer has to start, but gawd, he is so slow.
Fly half:  could go either way, but despite everything he does well, Ford is not a difference maker now
11:  IFW (no doubts)
12: Lawrence was not great but did push the defense back with ball in hand.  Just don't make a break and try to pass.
13:  Slade (could easily go Freeman)
14:  Freeman (could be Daly)
15:  Furbank (needs another start - hopefully with Fin at 10)

One of the American tv commentators offered the thought that England's biggest problem was the game plan.  As in he was having trouble figuring out what they were actually trying to do.  Almost seemed they were trying to attack aggressively but had no plan B when something didn't work.  Good example was when England were doing well earlier in the game and Care kicked the ball into touch, killing any momentum.      

bsando wrote:

jimbopip wrote:I was thinking about Felix Jones being brought on board the England coaching staff. The obvious conclusion would be that England would look to replicate the Boks' blitz defence. This seems to highlight three things for me.
The first two matches suggest that the England players haven't quite got to grips with it yet.
Even once they work out what they should be doing they are not as good, man for man , as the Boks.
You can bet Suella DeVille's place in the seventh circle of Hell that Toonie has spent every night since the Boks strangled the life out of Scotland at the World Cup planning how to unpick the Boks' Blitz defence.

Putting all of these ideas together; new defensive system, players not quite good enough for it, Toonie obsessively planning for the next time he encounters it....We're doomed. Doomed I say.

I thought this train of thought was going in a completely different direction.

glaws wrote:Not really a shock though, this is what happens when you pick players from Bath, Quins and Sarries who only care about their bank balances. Them 3 plus Wasps before they thankfully went bust are the reason English rugby is in a mess due to their greed and corruption I’m afraid, just a pity those 3 didn’t go the same way instead of Irish, Worcester and Jersey.

mountain man wrote:Despite loss I think England are heading in right direction.
Daly needs to go and now. IFW needs to start. Offers so much more. Spencer ? Hmm not sure he's any better than Care.

carpet baboon wrote:Could Lawrence not showing his league form be caused by him being played out of position?

Mr Bounce wrote:Harry Randall next week? Can't be slower, even if he is in 7 stone with his kit on...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Harry Randall next week? Can't be slower, even if he is in 7 stone with his kit on...

England don't want to play fast. Selections at this point have to be viewed with tactics in mind.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Could Lawrence not showing his league form be caused by him being played out of position?

Believe it or not there are people clamouring for a full back being played in midfield!

jimbopip wrote:

bsando wrote:

jimbopip wrote:I was thinking about Felix Jones being brought on board the England coaching staff. The obvious conclusion would be that England would look to replicate the Boks' blitz defence. This seems to highlight three things for me.
The first two matches suggest that the England players haven't quite got to grips with it yet.
Even once they work out what they should be doing they are not as good, man for man , as the Boks.
You can bet Suella DeVille's place in the seventh circle of Hell that Toonie has spent every night since the Boks strangled the life out of Scotland at the World Cup planning how to unpick the Boks' Blitz defence.

Putting all of these ideas together; new defensive system, players not quite good enough for it, Toonie obsessively planning for the next time he encounters it....We're doomed. Doomed I say.

I thought this train of thought was going in a completely different direction.

It worked, it worked..

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Despite loss I think England are heading in right direction.
Daly needs to go and now. IFW needs to start. Offers so much more. Spencer ? Hmm not sure he's any better than Care.

We're set now for a 5th place finish and then NZ away twice. How long is Borthwick lasting?

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Despite loss I think England are heading in right direction.
Daly needs to go and now. IFW needs to start. Offers so much more. Spencer ? Hmm not sure he's any better than Care.

We're set now for a 5th place finish and then NZ away twice. How long is Borthwick lasting?

So you see Wales or Italy overtaking us?

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Despite loss I think England are heading in right direction.
Daly needs to go and now. IFW needs to start. Offers so much more. Spencer ? Hmm not sure he's any better than Care.

We're set now for a 5th place finish and then NZ away twice. How long is Borthwick lasting?

So you see Wales or Italy overtaking us?

Heaf wrote:Ah yes I see a 5 pointer for Wales over Italy could be an issue.   Shame Smith missed his conversion and/or Brace didn't give England a pen for Scotland being miles offside at the last ruck before the dodgy maul call.

Geordie wrote:The Soith Africans played well anyway.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:The Soith Africans played well anyway.....

As per my other post. Just show the blooming posters dislikes then I wouldn't have to like rubbish posts.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:The Soith Africans played well anyway.....

As per my other post. Just show the blooming posters dislikes then I wouldn't have to like rubbish posts.

What? F£&k o£&

BigGee wrote:My 60th bithday this weekend

Thank you Scotland for helping to make it a great weekend!

TJ wrote:One thing that would get to me if I were an England fan - Scotland did nothing unpredictable.  That first try came from the diamond / huipoloto formation they use ( as I talked about in a pre match post).  Ball comes to Tuipiloto as the point of the diamond, Russell at the side, Jones at the other  side and Duhan at the back.  As Scotland come to the line this means tuipiloto has 3 players to pass to but only 2 england markers so he puts Jones into space as England are watching Finn

Scotland have been using this formation for a few years now - which players are in which position varies but it creates options.  Surely England analysis should have seen this and come up with a counter?

this is how Scotland make a lot of their breaks from this formation - it gives 3 straight passing options plus the ball carrier can kick or finn can do a runaround.  5 options once that ball is at the point of the diamond

dummy_half wrote:

TJ wrote:One thing that would get to me if I were an England fan - Scotland did nothing unpredictable.  That first try came from the diamond / huipoloto formation they use ( as I talked about in a pre match post).  Ball comes to Tuipiloto as the point of the diamond, Russell at the side, Jones at the other  side and Duhan at the back.  As Scotland come to the line this means tuipiloto has 3 players to pass to but only 2 england markers so he puts Jones into space as England are watching Finn

Scotland have been using this formation for a few years now - which players are in which position varies but it creates options.  Surely England analysis should have seen this and come up with a counter?

this is how Scotland make a lot of their breaks from this formation - it gives 3 straight passing options plus the ball carrier can kick or finn can do a runaround.  5 options once that ball is at the point of the diamond

It was the one time the England defensive system broke down, and it was because Lawrence went to the player inside who would have been picked up by the players defending in to out - left the big hole that Jones went through.
Otherwise, DvdM's tries came from two great bits of opportunism - England mistake and quickly picked up and shipped to him in space (BIG problem for a defence), and then Redpath recovering a loose ball off the charge down and finding a hole where the England players were pursuing the loose ball, followed by a terrific bit of execution by Russell with the cross kick (you can see Care spots the lack of cover and is trying to get there, but the kick was too well executed - a yard or so shorter and I think he covers it)..

So Scotland won without actually needing to do much by way of creative rugby - just very good at taking their opportunities in broken play. That England gave them too many opportunities with crap handling definintely needs looking at.

TJ wrote:
Scotland broke the blitz numerous times.  Often by passing and kicking outside of the blitz - see Duhans 3rd try.  Only by the skin of their teeth and not at every attempt but numerous times thru the match

Poorfour wrote:

TJ wrote:
Scotland broke the blitz numerous times.  Often by passing and kicking outside of the blitz - see Duhans 3rd try.  Only by the skin of their teeth and not at every attempt but numerous times thru the match

Quite. That's the issue with Jones's defensive system - you are vulnerable if the opposition can get around the initial rush and you don't have ultra-fast back three to cover it. It will improve with experience and learning when the blitz is likely to be bypassed and the team needs to switch to a drift, but it reputedly took the Boks 18 months to get it right.

I suspect we may see players like Murley, Muir and Hodge get their chances before too long. Murley definitely has the speed and positional sense to patch some of the holes.

lostinwales wrote:Hodge has that priceless ability to change direction whilst apparently running flat out.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Hodge has that priceless ability to change direction whilst apparently running flat out.

And he seems to be pretty robust and secure in the air for a skinny-looking kid.

mountain man wrote:What about George Hendy, is he injured as he has been very good this season for Saints so I was suprised he wasn't included in A squad. Maybe England have used up their Northhampton quota...