England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

by Geordie Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

by king_carlos Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:21 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Wembley cost around £800m when it was built. Adjusted for inflation that's spiralling towards £1.5bn today (roughly twenty years later). That didn't include land cost. Obviously it will have depreciated slightly in value but still acquiring 50% of the stadium and the relevant commercial rights and revenue would be expensive. The underlying land in London is likely to be worth a fair whack.

Twickenham is sat on 10 and a bit acres of semi prime real estate. That will be worth a chunk though not enough for 50% of Wembley and a new custom built stadium elsewhere in the country I'd have thought.

Twickenham's value on it's own? I very much doubt that would cover 50% of Wembley and a new stadium. Twickenham's value plus the £660m they're about to pump into its life support, getting closer...?

Also worth noting, if you've got a 50% share in Wembley, then building a rugby specific HQ doesn't need to be an immediate thing. That can feasibly be a 5-year plan to start construction or even longer. As you'd already have a relatively up to date stadium with better transport links than a horse and cart. Whereas Twickers can have a £660m redevelopment without even scratching the surface of its biggest issue.

by formerly known as Sam Sun Aug 11, 2024 10:06 pm

king_carlos wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Wembley cost around £800m when it was built. Adjusted for inflation that's spiralling towards £1.5bn today (roughly twenty years later). That didn't include land cost. Obviously it will have depreciated slightly in value but still acquiring 50% of the stadium and the relevant commercial rights and revenue would be expensive. The underlying land in London is likely to be worth a fair whack.

Twickenham is sat on 10 and a bit acres of semi prime real estate. That will be worth a chunk though not enough for 50% of Wembley and a new custom built stadium elsewhere in the country I'd have thought.

Twickenham's value on it's own? I very much doubt that would cover 50% of Wembley and a new stadium. Twickenham's value plus the £660m they're about to pump into its life support, getting closer...?

Also worth noting, if you've got a 50% share in Wembley, then building a rugby specific HQ doesn't need to be an immediate thing. That can feasibly be a 5-year plan to start construction or even longer. As you'd already have a relatively up to date stadium with better transport links than a horse and cart. Whereas Twickers can have a £660m redevelopment without even scratching the surface of its biggest issue.

Whilst the full bells and whistles plan is £660m the essential works is less than half that. The paper talk has been the RFU can't afford the £660m and that they'll need approval to get half of the £300m for the basic repairs via loans.

It would be the ideal scenario to have a 60k stadium in rugby and then borrow the 90k Wembley as and when we need it I suspect a 60k stadium in the Midlands with the option of temporary seating to increase the capacity as required might be more affordable. Borrowing Wembley for a few years whilst the new stadium is built is likely.

by king_carlos Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:18 pm

I don't honestly see Twickenham going anywhere. Rugby is too stuck in tradition. Especially in England. It's a conservative game, largely run by the most conservative within it. I struggle to think of something more in keeping with English rugby thinking than spending a ton of money keeping something familiar but s**t together because change is scary.

I think it's a fair conversation to have though, even if it's unlikely to go anywhere in reality.

The "mend and make do" (genuine quote from an RFU employee there...) renovations at half that sum basically sound like them fixing the roof and stands so they don't fall down. With some improvement of hospitality sections and extending the West Stand concourse. Which kinda sums up my feelings on the matter. Half of £660m is a s**t ton of money to spend on making Twickenham slightly less dated at the ground, with the same travel issues getting there. Over £300m on making Twickenham still one of the worst large capacity stadiums in London. It just feels like polishing a turd. It's a stadium from the past.

Hosting the Six Nations and your biggest AI each year in London is absolutely grand to me. I don't think you'd need that stadium outside of London to have even 60k capacity, let alone temporary seating added. A similar capacity to the Aviva would be such an exciting thing for the sport to have outside of London though. It just seems so perfect for so many of rugby's 'big' occasions outside of a very few marquee games.

by formerly known as Sam Mon Aug 12, 2024 7:40 am

I'd move the 6N and AIs out of London personally. You'll get the attendances anyway as long as you don't put the stadium somewhere stupid.

As you say KC it won't happen because the Blazer Brigade running the show are no where near this adventurous.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon Aug 12, 2024 2:25 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Wembley cost around £800m when it was built. Adjusted for inflation that's spiralling towards £1.5bn today (roughly twenty years later). That didn't include land cost. Obviously it will have depreciated slightly in value but still acquiring 50% of the stadium and the relevant commercial rights and revenue would be expensive. The underlying land in London is likely to be worth a fair whack.

Twickenham is sat on 10 and a bit acres of semi prime real estate. That will be worth a chunk though not enough for 50% of Wembley and a new custom built stadium elsewhere in the country I'd have thought.

£3M for the fancy houses, £1.5M for a detached house, £900K for a semi is a bit more than semi prime real estate, even a small flat is pushing half a million, not quite Battersea prices but enough to get a decent deal on 10.5 acres. Anything along the Thames, is Super Prime hence Battersea prices.

by Geordie Mon Aug 12, 2024 3:31 pm

So whos replacing Walters?

by formerly known as Sam Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:03 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Wembley cost around £800m when it was built. Adjusted for inflation that's spiralling towards £1.5bn today (roughly twenty years later). That didn't include land cost. Obviously it will have depreciated slightly in value but still acquiring 50% of the stadium and the relevant commercial rights and revenue would be expensive. The underlying land in London is likely to be worth a fair whack.

Twickenham is sat on 10 and a bit acres of semi prime real estate. That will be worth a chunk though not enough for 50% of Wembley and a new custom built stadium elsewhere in the country I'd have thought.

£3M for the fancy houses, £1.5M for a detached house, £900K for a semi is a bit more than semi prime real estate, even a small flat is pushing half a million, not quite Battersea prices but enough to get a decent deal on 10.5 acres. Anything along the Thames, is Super Prime hence Battersea prices.

Yeah it'd be prime anywhere else but in London house prices are ridiculous.

by protea438 Sat Aug 24, 2024 2:40 pm

Felix Jones resigns from England job

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/ex-bok-coach-quits-england/

After watching Chasing the Sun, had huge respect for the guy. Huge loss for England IMHO

by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:13 pm

Lots of coaches voting with their feet re Borthwick now.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:14 pm

Some questions for Borthwick and the RFU top brass to answer about what the hell is going on there. Three coaches leaving inside a month isn't a good look. Particularly when two were hand picked lieutenants of Borthwick.

It's also worth noting Jones has a 12 month notice period so won't be going anywhere just yet unless some coughs up compensation to the RFU.

by mountain man Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:25 pm

Same happened with Eddie, he went through coaches like a dose of salts. Must be something in the water at Pennyhill Park.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 24, 2024 4:09 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Some questions for Borthwick and the RFU top brass to answer about what the hell is going on there. Three coaches leaving inside a month isn't a good look. Particularly when two were hand picked lieutenants of Borthwick.

It's also worth noting Jones has a 12 month notice period so won't be going anywhere just yet unless some coughs up compensation to the RFU.

That would need to be triggered by England. Why would you want to keep a coach who obviously wants away from Borthwick?

by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 24, 2024 4:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Some questions for Borthwick and the RFU top brass to answer about what the hell is going on there. Three coaches leaving inside a month isn't a good look. Particularly when two were hand picked lieutenants of Borthwick.

It's also worth noting Jones has a 12 month notice period so won't be going anywhere just yet unless some coughs up compensation to the RFU.

That would need to be triggered by England. Why would you want to keep a coach who obviously wants away from Borthwick?

No, it's an employment contract. You have to give notice to terminate whether you are the employer or the employee. A long notice period provides security for both parties. The RFU now have time to find a replacement and if it was the other way round then Jones would get guaranteed income for 12 months or a pay out to provide immediate financial security.

Does he want away from Borthwick or have the RFU management been rocking the boat? There must be some leaks coming soon, enough media attention will be pointing that way.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 24, 2024 5:27 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Some questions for Borthwick and the RFU top brass to answer about what the hell is going on there. Three coaches leaving inside a month isn't a good look. Particularly when two were hand picked lieutenants of Borthwick.

It's also worth noting Jones has a 12 month notice period so won't be going anywhere just yet unless some coughs up compensation to the RFU.

That would need to be triggered by England. Why would you want to keep a coach who obviously wants away from Borthwick?

No, it's an employment contract. You have to give notice to terminate whether you are the employer or the employee. A long notice period provides security for both parties. The RFU now have time to find a replacement and if it was the other way round then Jones would get guaranteed income for 12 months or a pay out to provide immediate financial security.

Does he want away from Borthwick or have the RFU management been rocking the boat? There must be some leaks coming soon, enough media attention will be pointing that way.

If the rfu enact the notice period. That's what I'm saying. If he's comemout after 7 months and said this is not a good place to be what's the benefit for us? We still have Sinfield around after his resignation was back tracked a little to part time.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 24, 2024 6:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Some questions for Borthwick and the RFU top brass to answer about what the hell is going on there. Three coaches leaving inside a month isn't a good look. Particularly when two were hand picked lieutenants of Borthwick.

It's also worth noting Jones has a 12 month notice period so won't be going anywhere just yet unless some coughs up compensation to the RFU.

That would need to be triggered by England. Why would you want to keep a coach who obviously wants away from Borthwick?

No, it's an employment contract. You have to give notice to terminate whether you are the employer or the employee. A long notice period provides security for both parties. The RFU now have time to find a replacement and if it was the other way round then Jones would get guaranteed income for 12 months or a pay out to provide immediate financial security.

Does he want away from Borthwick or have the RFU management been rocking the boat? There must be some leaks coming soon, enough media attention will be pointing that way.

If the rfu enact the notice period. That's what I'm saying. If he's comemout after 7 months and said this is not a good place to be what's the benefit for us? We still have Sinfield around after his resignation was back tracked a little to part time.

Because it's highly likely he's been offered another job elsewhere and given he's rumoured to want to be an attack coach and NZ have just split from Leon MacDonald after all of five minutes were he to walk straightaway we could see him back at HQ in November. This way if NZ or anyone else want him before next summer then they can pay up.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 24, 2024 7:34 pm

And we can pay for him to sit and do nothing? Well we'll see soon enough.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 24, 2024 7:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And we can pay for him to sit and do nothing? Well we'll see soon enough.

Why would he do nothing? He can do analysis, work with individual players etc. The man is a professional.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 24, 2024 7:52 pm

Given what he's said? Just can't see him being involved. Or england making him stay.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:23 am

Reports say Jones was “unhappy with an unstable working environment”. The main instability has been the sudden departure of Aled Walters, and it does seem the prospect of working with Walters again was a major draw for Jones.

As Kevin Sinfield was sidelined to make way for Jones, it's possible Jones has also found it tricky to settle in with Sinfield giving notice, then potentially sticking around as a squad father-figure.

by carpet baboon Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:40 am

So England have lost the S&C and defence coach in the last 3 weeks. Interesting times ahead

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:54 am

Telegraph wonders whether Jones wanted to come in as defence coach.

It is understood that Jones’ resignation is connected to Walters’ exit having established a very close relationship from working together at Munster and then the Springboks under Rassie Erasmus. The position of Kevin Sinfield, the skills coach, also remains unclear despite Borthwick indicating that he wished for him to remain on board following the summer tour to Japan and New Zealand.

Jones was part of the South African coaching team that helped the Springboks to win back-to-back World Cups before joining the England set-up to much fanfare at the start of the year. The 37-year-old was given free rein to implement a highly aggressive blitz defence system that was starting to bear fruit as England defeated Six Nations champions Ireland at Twickenham with further encouraging displays in the two Test defeats to New Zealand.

Yet while it was seen as a coup by the RFU to recruit Jones last year, what the exact nature of his role would be, once his commitments with South Africa, where he led the attack, were over, remained unclear.

Initially it seemed that he would take on England’s attack role with Richard Wigglesworth moving to skills coach. Yet by the end of the World Cup, it was clear that Sinfield was going to move on as defence coach and so it was Jones who filled that brief. One source close to Jones suggested that he was unhappy with that arrangement, even if got the players’ full buy-in into the hyper aggressive blitz system.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/08/24/felix-jones-quits-england-defence-coach/

by formerly known as Sam Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:18 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:

As Kevin Sinfield was sidelined to make way for Jones, it's possible Jones has also found it tricky to settle in with Sinfield giving notice, then potentially sticking around as a squad father-figure.

Sinfield was looking to leave and the rumours were that it was because he wanted to spend more time at home. What with his best mate getting increasingly ill. With Burrow passing he seems to have had a change of heart.

Is it as simple as a lack of clear briefs for the coaches? Or Felix Jones just not happy with the defence brief?

A lot of assistant coach drama this week with Leon MacDonald walking out on the ABs as well.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Aug 25, 2024 6:31 pm

Eddie Jones had such a high turnover of coaches that it's easy to forget that not all coaching teams are stable.

Brian Ashton and John Mitchell were important parts of England's rebuild under Woodward, and both were gone before the 2003 World Cup.

South Africa has seen a large turnover but it gets less noticed, because they have won successive World Cups, and there's a sense that assistant coaches might want to do something different after a major win.

Still, England players ought to come into the national set-up thinking they are in the best possible hands, and not be wondering whether the coach setting you targets is still going to be around when you attain them.

by Geordie Tue Aug 27, 2024 11:30 am

Plenty of top class S&C coaches out there and d coaches....

They'll be replaced.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Aug 27, 2024 11:52 am

Guardian argues the RFU should try and get Shaun Edwards from France.

When Walters left, it seemed clear early on that life with his partner was the main reason for his decision. There hasn't been much more on Jones, aside from the fact Walters leaving played a major role.

A commenter on Reddit or YouTube claimed the central contracts situation (or lack of it) was part of what Jones meant when he spoke about instability. Possibly true, though he's just come from working with South Africa, where international players are all over the globe, so it's hard to see that as a dealbreaker.

by doctor_grey Tue Aug 27, 2024 12:51 pm

There are indeed plenty of good strength/conditioning coaches available. Salary might be a show stopper (not sure what the RFU is willing to pay) but I know some really good people currently working in the NFL who would be great. These folks are amongst the best I have worked with and coming from different sports would be a huge benefit.

by carpet baboon Tue Aug 27, 2024 12:54 pm

The central contracts will have nothing to do with why he left.
My speculation is he was promised something (by RFU or SB) and whatever it was is clearly not happened and when he asked about it was told it's not going to happen.
So he has informed them that he can no longer work with them.

That's my speculation

by carpet baboon Tue Aug 27, 2024 12:57 pm

doctor_grey wrote:There are indeed plenty of good strength/conditioning coaches available. Salary might be a show stopper (not sure what the RFU is willing to pay) but I know some really good people currently working in the NFL who would be great. These folks are amongst the best I have worked with and coming from different sports would be a huge benefit.

You would think the NFL would be an obvious place to get some S&C guys in.
Out of.intrest do many rugby teams have a S&C fella.from outside rugby? Or the other way round rugby guys going to other sports
I know flannery went to arsenal when he started in S&C

by king_carlos Tue Aug 27, 2024 1:26 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are indeed plenty of good strength/conditioning coaches available. Salary might be a show stopper (not sure what the RFU is willing to pay) but I know some really good people currently working in the NFL who would be great. These folks are amongst the best I have worked with and coming from different sports would be a huge benefit.

You would think the NFL would be an obvious place to get some S&C guys in.
Out of.intrest do many rugby teams have a S&C fella.from outside rugby? Or the other way round rugby guys going to other sports
I know flannery went to arsenal when he started in S&C

S&C leads are increasingly from an academic back ground. So they tend to come from anywhere. Nic Gill, the ABs S&C lead forever, was one of the earliest ones. He's a PhD and was still a lecturer when he got his first job in rugby. Walters did a masters at Edinburgh Uni. They are the guys who work between the player, coaches, physios, doctors, etc. They tie what all the parties are looking for together and build programs that fit each player.

Then you get S&C coaches, closer to personal trainers working with the players than the jobs that Walters and Gill do, who are generally a mix of former players or PTs who had a specific interest in rugby.

You do get some crossover between sports. AFL and rugby have significant crossover in Oz for instance when it comes to S&C. I'm not sure if there's any notable NFL to rugby crossovers. Rugby would likely struggle to compete with wages there though. The NFL itself is a juggernaut but the college system there is insane. S&C guys in the big college programs will realistically be getting better pay and much better facilities to work with than they would moving to even the bigger rugby unions!

by Geordie Tue Aug 27, 2024 3:51 pm

Famous Steve "Blacky" Black was a booncer up the toon, who had great ideas. I was fortunate to be trained quite a lot by him..he used to do regular training sessions at the powerlifting / boxing gym i trained at in North Shields (a proper spit and sawdust sh1thole but jeez there were some animals in there...)
Great times Very Happy

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Aug 27, 2024 11:56 pm

Guardian and Telegraph both say England players are disappointed Walters & Jones will be leaving. Telegraph says they are supportive of Borthwick (otherwise would be a surprise) and want to persist with the blitz defence. Guardian quotes some players:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/27/rugby-union-england-felix-jones-resignation-steve-borthwick

Jones’s all-or-nothing defence system endured teething problems early in the Six Nations but England beat Ireland at Twickenham before running France close in Lyon and pushing the All Blacks twice in the summer. “They will be a loss,” said the full-back George Furbank. “I loved working with Felix especially. I thought he was a very good coach so he’ll definitely be missed but I’m sure Steve has got some guys who he’s been looking out for who will step up into that role.

“We weren’t expecting it. Nobody really saw it coming. It was a bit of a shock. It was a bit of an odd timing. But I’m sure the people Steve will bring in will do a good job. [The blitz system] helped us go from a defence that was ranked fourth or fifth in the world to first or second. We definitely saw massive improvements.”

With England set to welcome New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan to Twickenham in November, the loss of both Walters and Jones is a major setback to Borthwick’s squad, with preparations being finalised before the start of the domestic season. “It’s going to be a real shame with those two guys not being around,” said the fly-half Fin Smith. “Aled’s an amazing character and drives so much of the energy in there and Felix is one of the hardest working coaches and one of the best rugby brains I’ve come across.
“They’re going to be a big loss. It’s a real shock. The strides the team took with that defence, we got so many positive rewards from it. I would imagine that [we will continue with the same defence] but it’s up to the board and what not what happens.”

The wing Tommy Freeman said he was “gutted” to be losing “two big characters”, while the scrum-half Alex Mitchell revealed England players had seen fit to discuss the double blow over the weekend.

Borthwick is seeking to appoint a replacement for Walters before the autumn and, while Jones is understood to have a 12-month notice period, it is unclear if he will serve it given the impact his impending departure could have on the squad.

by mountain man Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:56 am

Yeah well hardly a surprise players praise coaches/system etc, par for course in sport. Never hear full story until retired. They may well absolutely all mean it but until then I always take everything with pinch of PR salt. Every player still with England praised Eddie to the heavens but I wonder what we'll end up reading in a few years.

by Geordie Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:24 am

For me personally replacing Walters is not a massive biggy. Exceptional coach yes...but he clearly has such a tie with Ireland England couldnt really do much. There are plenty of other S&C Leads / Coaches etc globally with huge energy, skills and forward thinking ability to come in.

Jones may be slightly more difficult purely down to his experience levels....but it is what it is. it may be Sinfield taking up that role again or maybe another.

Look at the effect Lee Radford has had at Saints (purely one example) so im not all doom and gloom. As long as the vision / goal is there, for defence and attack then we should be fine

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Aug 28, 2024 3:08 pm

Geordie wrote:For me personally replacing Walters is not a massive biggy. Exceptional coach yes...but he clearly has such a tie with Ireland England couldnt really do much. There are plenty of other S&C Leads / Coaches etc globally with huge energy, skills and forward thinking ability to come in.

Jones may be slightly more difficult purely down to his experience levels....but it is what it is. it may be Sinfield taking up that role again or maybe another.

Look at the effect Lee Radford has had at Saints (purely one example) so im not all doom and gloom. As long as the vision / goal is there, for defence and attack then we should be fine

Don't even dream about going there..................

by Geordie Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:37 pm

Ha ha ha....he's probably too inexperienced....but he was just an example that there are loads of talented coaches out there..just need to develop their experience...

Vesty might be different though...depends what his goals are and what the money is like. But Saints are at the start of something big I think so maybe England won't turn his head just yet.

by Geordie Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:47 pm

And apparently SB is crunch talks with the RFU...given the vote of confidence...

by doctor_grey Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:59 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Geordie wrote:For me personally replacing Walters is not a massive biggy. Exceptional coach yes...but he clearly has such a tie with Ireland England couldnt really do much. There are plenty of other S&C Leads / Coaches etc globally with huge energy, skills and forward thinking ability to come in.

Jones may be slightly more difficult purely down to his experience levels....but it is what it is. it may be Sinfield taking up that role again or maybe another.

Look at the effect Lee Radford has had at Saints (purely one example) so im not all doom and gloom. As long as the vision / goal is there, for defence and attack then we should be fine
Don't even dream about going there..................

The Guardian - Gerard Meagher wrote:Having guided Northampton to their first Premiership title in 10 years, Phil Dowson and his senior coaches Sam Vesty and Lee Radford have seen their reputations soar, but the outgoing Saints chief executive, Mark Darbon, warned off the Rugby Football Union.

“All of our coaching group are under contract,” he said. “We are so proud of what they have done, last year in particular. We very recently extended the contracts of Phil, Sam, Lee and the rest of the coaching group so I think we are in a good place. We are optimistic they will continue to lead us to lots of success.”

Mark Darbon, baby! Nice farewell gift back to the fans.

ooga chaka!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrI-UBIB8Jk

by formerly known as Sam Thu Aug 29, 2024 10:28 pm

Geordie wrote:And apparently SB is crunch talks with the RFU...given the vote of confidence...

Given the penny pinching RFU there's negotiations about what's to happen with his coaching setup. The RFU might be refusing to hire a FJ replacement until his employment finishes.

The RFU certainly won't terminate Borthwick as the cost will be chunky both in terms of pay out and replacement.

Also be harsh to nick the Saints defence coach. It's been years since they've had a defence to speak of, let them enjoy it for a bit first.

Sam Vesty is entirely the type of head coach that could be a Borthwick successor after the next world cup though.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri Aug 30, 2024 12:36 am

From The Times. "Rows brewing" in the headline is a bit of an exaggeration, as no-one is sounding confrontational. Still, there are some fair questions here. Can't recall hearing about an independent reviewer before. It initially sounded like England would be able to call all the shots on hybrid contract players.

Presumably, to demonstrate independence, this reviewer will sometimes feel the need to favour the club over England. When that happens, you can imagine another club coach wondering why he didn't get the same call.

https://archive.is/lxX7V

Rows brewing over central contracts – before RFU has even unveiled them
Gallagher Premiership clubs fear upcoming deals will give England and Steve Borthwick too much control over player availability, with up to 25 internationals expected to gain hybrid contracts

Gallagher Premiership coaches have raised concerns about how disputes between club and country will be resolved as confusion clouds the rollout of the RFU’s new central contract system.

The impending deal is set to allow the RFU to offer up to 25 players hybrid contracts with their clubs, which would give the national team input on players’ fitness and medical decisions while they are with their domestic sides.

However, worries are growing about the agreement before it has been unveiled, with Premiership coaches unclear how disputes will be resolved when there is a difference of opinion between Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the clubs over the players with hybrid deals.

Under the new system Borthwick will work with the player and his club coach to attempt to determine the best approach — but if the two parties fail to agree, a single independent reviewer will be appointed to adjudicate by a board that will be set up to oversee the new deal. Both the RFU and the clubs will be clearly keen to ensure that the appointment is genuinely independent.

“I’ve had some conversations with Steve with regard to some of the shared work and we are generally pretty aligned,” Phil Dowson, the Northampton Saints director of rugby, said. “But how it works out when it becomes a conflict and who the independent [reviewer] is, if it gets to that point… it will be interesting to see who they appoint there.

“Training camps, England selections and the enhanced EPS [Elite Player Squad] stuff, we are still waiting for more detail on who that’s going to involve and what it is going to look like. It’s going to take some time to understand the flaws and foibles and make sure we know what we are doing.”

Rob Baxter, Dowson’s counterpart at Exeter Chiefs, articulated similar concerns over the uncertainty last week. “Strength and conditioning and medical decisions will be made by the England head coach, while selection for Premiership and European Cup games will be made by the clubs,” Baxter said. “But if you’re in control of someone’s medical decisions, you’re deciding when they play, aren’t you?”

Borthwick is under significant pressure after the recent resignations of two key coaches, Aled Walters, the highly rated strength and conditioning coach who has joined Ireland, and Felix Jones, the defence coach who had rejuvenated England with the introduction of a blitz defensive system. Their departures have rocked the England team after a season in which they appeared to be making progress, with a victory over Ireland in the Six Nations and two close defeats on the summer tour to New Zealand.

Uncertainty over the management of players’ fitness and medical programmes illustrates one clear reason why Walters, in particular, would opt to leave England and work with Ireland, where the needs of the national team are given clear priority. Dowson, whose side won the Premiership last season, was asked whether he could envisage potential conflict if, for example, the England wing Tommy Freeman were to take up a hybrid contract.

“Yeah, potentially,” Dowson said. “You sometimes get guys who need an injection on a joint and that might need a week or two weeks off. If that is just before the Six Nations starts, does he miss the last [club] game for Saints to be available for England? If you start taking players out because you are saving them, effectively, to play for England, then that becomes an issue. I don’t think conflict will happen very often, but it’s interesting to see whom they appoint to arbitrate how that goes.”

The new Professional Game Partnership agreement, which includes the RFU paying £33million to the clubs, is due to be launched shortly with the first Premiership matches on September 20. Borthwick is expected to name fewer than 25 players on contracts of about £160,000 per season.

Maro Itoje and the England captain Jamie George, both of whom were out of contract with Saracens at the end of last season, are the only two players to have agreed such deals to date.
Borthwick will work with club coaches on the players’ individual development plans and where the parties can not come to an agreement, the independent reviewer will be called upon to issue judgment. “Hopefully they’ve got a big white wig and a gavel,” Dowson said.

The lack of harmony between clubs and country has long been seen as a problem for the England head coach and the new partnership was intended as a step in the right direction at a time when the national team have won the Six Nations only once in the past seven seasons.
However, uncertainty over the management of players seems set to continue under the new system, exposing once again the fault lines that have scarred English rugby since the start of the professional era.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri Aug 30, 2024 8:11 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:And apparently SB is crunch talks with the RFU...given the vote of confidence...

Given the penny pinching RFU there's negotiations about what's to happen with his coaching setup. The RFU might be refusing to hire a FJ replacement until his employment finishes.

The RFU certainly won't terminate Borthwick as the cost will be chunky both in terms of pay out and replacement.

Also be harsh to nick the Saints defence coach. It's been years since they've had a defence to speak of, let them enjoy it for a bit first.

Sam Vesty is entirely the type of head coach that could be a Borthwick successor after the next world cup though.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hands off. Too expensive, just signed a new long term contract.

Forget he exists, he hates England.

Saint Sam is staying.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr

by mountain man Fri Aug 30, 2024 8:19 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:And apparently SB is crunch talks with the RFU...given the vote of confidence...

Given the penny pinching RFU there's negotiations about what's to happen with his coaching setup. The RFU might be refusing to hire a FJ replacement until his employment finishes.

The RFU certainly won't terminate Borthwick as the cost will be chunky both in terms of pay out and replacement.

Also be harsh to nick the Saints defence coach. It's been years since they've had a defence to speak of, let them enjoy it for a bit first.

Sam Vesty is entirely the type of head coach that could be a Borthwick successor after the next world cup though.

Yep exactly. Aside from cost I wouldn't think RFU would want to sack Borthwick anyway. Performances have improved pretty much game by game, the players seem to be buying into the style and tactics(although never know at time for sure as they'll always support coach at time), the general vibe from fans and media is positive towards England so unless something is really amiss in camp then I don't see a change in head coach.

by Geordie Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:12 am

Uncertainty over the management of players’ fitness and medical programmes illustrates one clear reason why Walters, in particular, would opt to leave England and work with Ireland, where the needs of the national team are given clear priority.

Oh well that explains that one.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:23 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:And apparently SB is crunch talks with the RFU...given the vote of confidence...

Given the penny pinching RFU there's negotiations about what's to happen with his coaching setup. The RFU might be refusing to hire a FJ replacement until his employment finishes.

The RFU certainly won't terminate Borthwick as the cost will be chunky both in terms of pay out and replacement.

Also be harsh to nick the Saints defence coach. It's been years since they've had a defence to speak of, let them enjoy it for a bit first.

Sam Vesty is entirely the type of head coach that could be a Borthwick successor after the next world cup though.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hands off. Too expensive, just signed a new long term contract.

Forget he exists, he hates England.

Saint Sam is staying.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr

He's still a Tiger at heart, hence his winning mentality...

Three years to the next world cup. I'd imagine his contract would run to about then. He looked after the Saxons backs/attack earlier in the year and would probably like a go with England at some point though probably with the top job in mind as opposed to being an assistant.

by doctor_grey Sat Aug 31, 2024 12:30 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:And apparently SB is crunch talks with the RFU...given the vote of confidence...

Given the penny pinching RFU there's negotiations about what's to happen with his coaching setup. The RFU might be refusing to hire a FJ replacement until his employment finishes.

The RFU certainly won't terminate Borthwick as the cost will be chunky both in terms of pay out and replacement.

Also be harsh to nick the Saints defence coach. It's been years since they've had a defence to speak of, let them enjoy it for a bit first.

Sam Vesty is entirely the type of head coach that could be a Borthwick successor after the next world cup though.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hands off. Too expensive, just signed a new long term contract.

Forget he exists, he hates England.

Saint Sam is staying.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr

He's still a Tiger at heart, hence his winning mentality...

Three years to the next world cup. I'd imagine his contract would run to about then. He looked after the Saxons backs/attack earlier in the year and would probably like a go with England at some point though probably with the top job in mind as opposed to being an assistant.

I hear that after they changed the pastry chef at The Three Swans in Market Harborough he decided he doesn't want to go to Leicestershire again.....

by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:42 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:And apparently SB is crunch talks with the RFU...given the vote of confidence...

Given the penny pinching RFU there's negotiations about what's to happen with his coaching setup. The RFU might be refusing to hire a FJ replacement until his employment finishes.

The RFU certainly won't terminate Borthwick as the cost will be chunky both in terms of pay out and replacement.

Also be harsh to nick the Saints defence coach. It's been years since they've had a defence to speak of, let them enjoy it for a bit first.

Sam Vesty is entirely the type of head coach that could be a Borthwick successor after the next world cup though.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hands off. Too expensive, just signed a new long term contract.

Forget he exists, he hates England.

Saint Sam is staying.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr

He's still a Tiger at heart, hence his winning mentality...

Three years to the next world cup. I'd imagine his contract would run to about then. He looked after the Saxons backs/attack earlier in the year and would probably like a go with England at some point though probably with the top job in mind as opposed to being an assistant.
I hear that after they changed the pastry chef at The Three Swans in Market Harborough he decided he doesn't want to go to Leicestershire again.....

I can't comment, wrong end of the county for me. Not sure if it's still the same but a lot of players from both East Midlands sides used to live in that area. Think more of the younger Tigers live Loughborough way now as they tend to study up here and it's close to some of the preferred outside sports consultants the club use with easy access down to Oadby.

by mikey_dragon Sun Sep 01, 2024 10:33 am

I’ve recently discovered Freddie Thomas, another lock forward who has always felt Welsh!

by formerly known as Sam Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I’ve recently discovered Freddie Thomas, another lock forward who has always felt Welsh!

Good luck to him. Has been doing ok for Gloucester and is unlikely to get a look in with England.

by king_carlos Mon Sep 02, 2024 4:09 pm

Geordie wrote:
Uncertainty over the management of players’ fitness and medical programmes illustrates one clear reason why Walters, in particular, would opt to leave England and work with Ireland, where the needs of the national team are given clear priority.

Oh well that explains that one.

The Ireland setup is nearly perfect for Walters remit. He's viewed as an expert at getting players peaking for specific tournaments/games. Ireland have probably the best system going for resting their best players in order to do that. Key internationals and the pointy ends of the Champions Cup.

I'm really disappointed for Jones to be leaving. He's an incredibly highly rated coach and Chasing the Sun really drives that home. The way he analyses the game is on another level even to international coaches. You can see that in the coaching meetings and player briefs he really is explaining things in a depth that even others at the top end are learning from. I'm waiting for the dust to settle and more information to come out on the why's though. The RFU don't have the best reputation as an employer. Tigers did have Boris Stankovich leave early in Borthwick's tenure as he didn't like the hours expected. Jones himself seems to have an insane work ethic though - see Chasing the Sun again for that - so I doubt that would be the issue. When more inevitably comes out over time, I'm curious whether it will be RFU issues, Walters leaving, another opportunity, Borthwick, the club vs country issue with England, a mix of all the above.

The RFU and PRL's usual opaqueness combined with their ineptitude doesn't help trying to figure out what's going on. The 8 year PGA finished last season, new PGP should have been installed in June and is presumably funding the Prem this season, but there's been basically nothing since the Telegraph report in April. That report was detailed. £264m deal over 8 years. Match fees largely replaced with guaranteed £160k hybrid contracts - which the England coaching team was reportedly able to hand out up to 25 players. It would reportedly also give England more control over S&C, skills coaching and medical decisions. Though final selection at Prem level (i.e. Steward at 12...) would stay with the clubs - I've heard from a friend who works in the Prem that this was a bridge that the P-share clubs, i.e. PRL, were willing to die on.

Since that Telegraph report, which mentioned there still being legal proceedings to finalise, there's been nothing though. No official confirmation. No significant rumours beyond some coaches and players expressing doubts or concerns it'd be ready for this season. They'll need the RFU and PRL legal teams to both agree to the PGP, but also Team England Rugby Ltd to agree on the hybrid contract size. The later body is the one that split from the RPA and now represents the players.

As usual, the structure of English rugby is a mess. The RFU simply have too much to look after. One of the only rugby bodies in England that is relatively well regarded is National League Rugby. That's because NLR has a reasonable remit. National leagues below the pro game. In France you have the Top 14 and ProD2 run by LNR rather than the national body. All clubs in both leagues vote on how LNR is run. Then you have the Nationales 1 and 2, Fedarale 1 and 2 (between pro and semi-pro) which are run by FFR. Fedarale 3 is co-managed by the various regional leagues. Then the community game, Regionale 1, 2 and 3, are run by those leagues. I think English rugby should tear up the RFU, create separate boards to run the pro, semi pro and community games. The RFU has too big a remit and is too s**t at most of it. Whilst PRL and P-share clubs are really a response to how poor the RFU are. They needed a powerful club body to challenge the RFU. Instead, you've ended up with a closed shop as P-shares built a moat in preparation for the drawbridge being lifted. So instead of just having a rubbish national board, we now have an inept club body to challenge them as well. It needs gutting and starting afresh.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Sep 05, 2024 9:19 am

Marler speaking with Dan Cole and Ben Youngs. YouTube topic menu below. The part about his relationship with Borthwick, and then a discussion about coaching staff changes are most relevant to the national side.

00:00 Intro
02:00 New set
03:06 Injury update
05:10 Pre-season
08:34 Reaching 100 England caps
12:36 Relationship with Steve Borthwick
20:20 What has happened to England's coaching staff?
31:49 Becoming England vice-captain
38:21 Love of the gym
45:51 Being a big tackler
52:13 Hobbies outside of rugby

by mountain man Thu Sep 05, 2024 9:43 am

I watched segment about coaching staff and it seems nothing wrong with enviroment etc that Cole and Marler found under Borthwick. Marler says it got "dark" under Eddie which comes as no surprise and was no doubt reason so many left under him.

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