England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

by Geordie Tue 16 Apr 2024, 1:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

by formerly known as Sam Mon 16 Sep 2024, 5:15 pm

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Joe El-Abd, Paul Gustard and Norman Laker are rumoured to be in the running to takeover from Felix Jones.

Laker is with Stormers as the defence coach
Gustard is the defence coach with Stade Francais
El-Abd is head coach at Oyannax

Isnt Gustard a fan of the blitz defence? Might give him the edge...

I think Laker runs a blitz defence at the Stormers as well. Has served under Dobson for a number of years, Dobson is exactly the type of intelligent coach I can see Borthwick respecting so acquiring one of his proteges he'd be interested to bring in.

Borthwick will know Gustard from Sarries and England. He was fantastic at club level but at international level didn't quite take off. He was a bad fit for Quins though he did give them some organisation

El-Abd as KC says would be a really interesting acquisition as he's got experience of the top job as well as a defence coach and in France utilising minimal resources. Not sure of his style.

by king_carlos Mon 16 Sep 2024, 6:54 pm

England's defence under Gustard was outstanding to be fair. Also a blitz. Though less aggressive than the Boks inspired system we've seen recently. Basically everything else is less aggressive though. Gustard didn't succeed as a head coach but his work as a defence coach has largely been very good indeed.

The Boks blitz is the most aggressive defence rugby has ever seen though. There's nothing even close to what they started doing under Nienaber and Jones either. It really was a leap forward for the blitz system rather than an evolution. They just started blitzing like maniacs, accepted that it would get found out at times, then built in layers of safeguards as they found issues with it on the top stage. England's recent use of it only the second time we've seen similar aggression of line speed that frequently in union.

I'd really like El-Abd as a forwards coach working under Borthwick, ideally. I think he'd be perfect for that role. England mostly haven't had a designated forwards coach under Borthwick. Cockers will have done a bit while caretaking the scrum role in the '23 Six Nations. Whereas several other setups have a couple of forwards coaches or a designated forwards coach, then a specialist in certain areas such as contact area or forward defence, etc. The Boks have Deon Davids and Duane Vermuelen. Ireland have Easterby and POM. France have Servat and Sempere. I think someone with El-Abd's CV working with the forwards and the fringe defence could be a good balance.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 16 Sep 2024, 7:05 pm

My memory might be playing up on me but didn't the England defence take a leap forward post Gustard, he layed the foundation and then it was moved on from there. Could have been that England found form just after he left that has me misremembering.

England do have Harrison and Strawbridge assisting Borthwick so there are forwards on the coaching staff covering the scrum and breakdown.

I think more than a forward orientated coach they probably need a coach who can provide energy. Borthwick, Sinfield and Wigglesworth are all a bit grim northerner. They aren't going to be the life and soul of the party, which isn't a bad thing, but you need someone to raise the energy. Aled did that job rather well. Not sure Gustard can do that necessarily.

by king_carlos Mon 16 Sep 2024, 7:34 pm

Gustard was defence coach from 2016 to 2018. So two Six Nations titles, including a Grand Slam, record equalling win run and the whitewash in Oz. The defence was fantastic.

Mitchell then came in and initially shifted from Gustard's blitz to a much softer bend don't break approach more akin to what Steve Tandy has favoured with Scotland. Which definitely worked at times but lacked the ability to put pressure back on. Then they graduated to a hybrid under Mitchell where they were much more aggressive near the ruck but drifted wider out. Almost looking like they had different two defensive lines. The inside defence tried to put pressure on and force 10s to play deep if they wanted to get outside them. Then wider out they drifted, trusting the likes of Slade and the wingers to cover a ton of ground.

Then Seibold came in and they kept a similar-ish hybrid system but tended to be more aggressive throughout the defensive line on earlier phases. They blitz harder early, try to prevent slow ball, then drift more as the opposition went through phases, which presumably was hoping that would limit penalties, force the opposition to kick on England's terms rather than their own. This was when positionless attacking structure was completely stalling though, it's hard to tell how Seibold's defence really was as plenty of other things had waned.

Gustard was most certainly successful though with 2 Six Nations from 3 and a quality defence. That was when JJ was brilliant running the defensive line at 13.

by Geordie Tue 17 Sep 2024, 8:07 am

What has El Ab done to warrant being in this consideration. Genuine question as i dont know much about him other than he was a Bristol flanker.

Has he been defence coach etc?

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 17 Sep 2024, 12:20 pm

Geordie wrote:What has El Ab done to warrant being in this consideration. Genuine question as i dont know much about him other than he was a Bristol flanker.

Has he been defence coach etc?

Times article:

https://archive.is/1bs2f#selection-2209.67-2209.77

by king_carlos Tue 17 Sep 2024, 12:23 pm

El-Abd has been coaching in France between Top 14 and ProD2 for a decade, Geordie. Very well considered. He worked across forwards and defence coaching at Oyonnax and Castres, then became Oyonnax head coach. He took an Oyonnax side with a limited budget to the Top 14. They did get relegated last season, but when I say limited budget, I reckon there's a bigger gap between Oyonnax's spending and most Top 14 clubs than there is between Falcons and the other Prem teams. It was an absolute gulf. They still managed 7 wins and draw in the Top 14 though. For context, Montpellier managed 9 wins last season with a billionaire backing them and a star studded squad. General opinion in France is that El-Abd did about as well as anyone could have done given the resources available. He's really highly rated.

As said prior to that Beeb article, I particularly like that El-Abd is a player who knows the English system inside out, but also has significant experience outside of it. Whereas a lot of English coaches end up playing in the Prem, coaching in the Prem, then stepping up to international jobs. Which can absolutely still work. Many have succeeded through that path. It's good to have a mix of experience in a coaching team though.

by king_carlos Tue 17 Sep 2024, 1:46 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Geordie wrote:What has El Ab done to warrant being in this consideration. Genuine question as i dont know much about him other than he was a Bristol flanker.

Has he been defence coach etc?

Times article:

https://archive.is/1bs2f#selection-2209.67-2209.77

I didn't see that you'd posted this when I sent my post above, sorry RF.

Good article that. Lowe is certainly one of the better journalists on English rugby stuff. Charlie Morgan, Torygraph, and Chris Foy, Daily Heil, tend to be the other two who are often bang on the money with the England team.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Sep 2024, 4:34 pm

Yeah for reference Oyonnax has a population of 22k. It's not a big place and their stadium holds 11.5k. It's not a set up you'd expect at the top end of French Rugby. Selling the club to prospective players must be quite tough as there's no cosmopolitan city, no French Rivera and no big wages.

El-Abd does have a good reputation. Promotions as assistant and head coach at Oyonnax and he was the defence coach at Castres when they won the league back in 2018.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 17 Sep 2024, 5:12 pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/09/17/england-felix-jones-replacement-borthwick-gustard-el-abd/

England suffer setback in bid to replace Felix Jones as French clubs issue hands-off warning

Steve Borthwick’s search for a new defence coach has hit a stumbling block with French clubs warning the England boss off his two leading candidates.

Telegraph Sport revealed on Monday that Paul Gustard, currently the Stade Français defence coach, and Joe El-Abd, the head coach of Oyonnax, were on Borthwick’s final shortlist to replace Felix Jones.

However, both French clubs have declared it would be “impossible” for either man to be released from their contracts early to join up with England in time for their autumn international campaign.

Dougal Bendjaballah, the president of Oyonnax, said they have yet to receive a formal approach for El-Abd from the Rugby Football Union and would not welcome one either.

He said: “I have no contact with the RFU but for Joe, the situation is clear: it is impossible for him to leave Oyonnax now, we have a deal, and he will finish the season.”

That warning was echoed by Stade Français chief executive Thomas Lombard, who said of Gustard, who engineered the best defensive record in the Top 14 last season: “It is impossible for us to let Paul leave Stade Français, he is under contract until 2026. We want to keep him.”

While both clubs are understandably keen to keep two highly-rated coaches, the RFU has previously bought targets out of their contracts, such as when it poached Eddie Jones from the Stormers. The strong personal connections that Borthwick has with both Gustard and El-Abd will also mean the clubs risk keeping a coach while he is unhappy being there.

However, neither Stade Français nor Oyonnax will be inclined to do the RFU any favours – as might a Premiership club – and their owners are known to be willing to dig their heels in over a point of principle.

El-Abd has plenty of admirers within French rugby for the work he has done with Oyonnax whom he has helped punch well above their weight after securing promotion to the Top 14 in 2023. The 44-year-old has been strongly linked with a return to his former club Castres at the end of the current campaign, which could prove an added complication.

At the very least, the French clubs’ hardline stance may mean Borthwick has to revert to Plan B, whether that is ensuring that Felix Jones remains in his role for the autumn despite handing in his notice or bringing a young coach in on secondment as he did with Harlequins’ Nick Evans in his first campaign. Sale Sharks’ Byron McGuigan is known to be highly rated in RFU coaching circles.

England start their autumn campaign against New Zealand at Twickenham on November 2 followed by visits of Australia, South Africa and Japan.

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