England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

Poorfour wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:What has Langdon done to Borthwick. He was the form hooker in the Prem last season and looks to have continued it this season.

Don't know what we are going to use for backs with 5 of our first choices in the squad and Mitchell potentially injured

Isn't the international window clear of Prem games now we've only got 18 games to fit in?

Yep, it's either PRC or bye weeks for the AIs. Obvious starters are often kept in camp the weekend before international windows, which is a Prem week, but many are released back.

From Saints perspective for instance. Freeman and Furbank would almost certainly be retained. Finn Smith if Ford is still crocked. Maybe Sleightholme - that could depend on where Freeman is being used. I'd expect Davison, Pearson and Dingwall to be released for game time though. Coles would very likely be available for them too. Maybe he's retained if one of Itoje/Chess/Martin get a knock, or if they are looking at starting those three as a unit at 4/5/6, which I do think is a possibility.

Interesting Joe Heyes is dropped from the squad now he's finally in form and seemingly relegating Cole to the bench (or at least did for the first two games of the season). He was persisted with whilst being average and struggling for form. Odd.

Looks quite a safe squad selection. Centre remains the area of concern. Lawrence starting the season like a train certainly helps but greater physicality is going to need to be found sooner rather than later. Will Butt and Dan Kelly have both had promising starts to the season.

The England A side will be an interesting selection. There's a lot of young players doing good things in the Prem this season.

Well could todsyvsee the emergence of the next great England partnership at lock. Martin and Chessum were seriously impressive and complemented each other So well.

Now the opposition were mid table championship level but dont let that sway the performance.
Let's see how they go v better opposition but theres real potential here. Itoje has some serious competition now from Chessum.

4 Martin
5 Chessum
6 CCS / Hill

Suddenly theres real size, power, carrying and aggression....

Chessum seems to be in top form currently and relishing the extra responsibility as captain. Not sure any international coach worth his salt would drop Itoje though. More likely to see 4. Itoje, 5. Martin and 6. Chessum with Underhill and Earl rounding out the back five of the pack. CCS being launched from the bench as impact. Advantage of having Chessum at 6 of course is he can move into the row and there's then the potential for another backrow on the bench if Borthwick wants that. If fit a Tom Curry perhaps.

Frankly, I have real concerns about Tom Curry. So many injuries, which he has toughed out very well. But I think his warranty is expiring. Time to cast a strong glance towards his future and the rest of his life. Shame.

Dan Cole and Ben Youngs podcast continues to give some of the best insights on English rugby. Tommy Freeman is the most recent guest.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7bI2TNhbJTVCNFgJHNTAr3?si=579d061f020d4f8f

Freeman says learning the blitz defence was challenging. As a winger, he wondered if he'd get exhausted with all the sprinting. He came to realize a well-co-ordinated blitz meant he didn't have to always be running at full pace. It induced enough opposition errors to keep the team motivated to persist with it.

Freeman explained he worked on his aerial game because Borthwick and Wigglesworth told him at the World Cup camp that's what they wanted from their wingers. It's become a skill Saints also now use. He rates Roebuck as an opponent who is proficient in the air.

doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, I have real concerns about Tom Curry.  So many injuries, which he has toughed out very well.  But I think his warranty is expiring.  Time to cast a strong glance towards his future and the rest of his life.  Shame.

Yep and in my opinion(others are available) he's not been in best form even when fit last couple years. OK that may be down to nagging injuries but some think he is still a world class player who is automatic starter. Not any more unfortunately. He's still young enough to get back to best but seems a way off it yet.

mountain man wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, I have real concerns about Tom Curry.  So many injuries, which he has toughed out very well.  But I think his warranty is expiring.  Time to cast a strong glance towards his future and the rest of his life.  Shame.

Yep and in my opinion(others are available) he's not been in best form even when fit last couple years. OK that may be down to nagging injuries but some think he is still a world class player who is automatic starter. Not any more unfortunately. He's still young enough to get back to best but seems a way off it yet.

I'm with you on that. England have been notably less effective when he's come on recently. I think he needs a year off from international duty to get himself right, and then we can see if he's recovered his form. England are not short of talented loose forwards who could step up - and Borthwick probably needs to bring a few through between now and the next RWC just because of the attritional nature of the position.

king_carlos wrote:Listing by position as it's easier to get a proper look that way.

1.Genge, Marler, Baxter
2.George, Dan, LCD
3.Stuart, Cole, Davison
4.Itoje, Martin
5.Chessum, Coles
6.CCS, Roots, Fisilau
7.Underhill, Pearson
8.Earl, Willis

9.Spencer, Randall, JvP
10.M Smith, F Smith

11.Freeman, Roebuck
12.Lawrence, Dingwall
13.Lozowski, Daly, Beard
14.IFW, Sleightholme
15.Furbank, Steward

Rehabing with squad: Slade, Dombrandt, Northmore

Not considered due to injury: Rodd, Curry x 2, Mitchell, Quirke, Ford, Ojomoh, Cokanasiga, Muir

Langdon's continued absence is the obvious thing that still sticks out there. I rate him.

Pearson back in with Pepper out too. I like that. I think Pepper will be a brilliant openside and is already very good. Pearson has the carrying ability that I feel the back row needs more than Pepper's defensive strength. Pearson needs to improve his conditioning, he faded drastically after a promising start in that RWC warmup against Wales. There's lots of potential there though.

Lozowski seems like straight cover for Slade. He's got a bit more pace but probably a slightly worse passing game IMO. Both are very good individual defenders and defensive leaders. He's the player of those discarded after that Japan game that I remained most curious about. Care never had the kicking game for the international game. His career spanned 4 England coaches and 100 caps, I think he never started more than 6 or 7 games on the bounce without getting dropped or benched due to that glaring weakness. Brilliant at times as an impact sub but he came up short as a starter over and over again.

I'm really glad that Quirke at least seems to be in the picture if he's listed as 'not considered'. He's got so much talent if he can stay fit.

Overall, I think there's a lot to like in that group of players. A few worrying areas have solutions in that training squad. Smith x 2 as the heirs to Faz and Ford. The back row is developing far more carrying options. I really like those 4 second rows that seem to be settling as a unit. The back three looks very promising. Baxter could be something special.

A significant physical presence in the midfield remains the obvious absence compared to the gun international teams though. de Allende. Bundee Aki. Danty. Jordie. It's not a coincidence that the top 4 teams have at least one centre who can get over the gain line and stop players on it.

I can assure you Peppers carrying both in space and in hard traffic is very good. For me he is ahead of Pearson in every aspect already including consistency, and will probably be the one who pushes Pearson out of the squad.

He's been injured for most of the last two seasons, but I am also looking to see if Jack Kenningham can force his way into consideration. He's played well in his games so far and has a very complete game (including as a lineout option). He's used the time off to add some bulk and if that has added to his carrying he could well get on the England radar.

Will Evans is playing well too, but his size is probably always going to count against him.

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, I have real concerns about Tom Curry.  So many injuries, which he has toughed out very well.  But I think his warranty is expiring.  Time to cast a strong glance towards his future and the rest of his life.  Shame.

Yep and in my opinion(others are available) he's not been in best form even when fit last couple years. OK that may be down to nagging injuries but some think he is still a world class player who is automatic starter. Not any more unfortunately. He's still young enough to get back to best but seems a way off it yet.

I'm with you on that. England have been notably less effective when he's come on recently. I think he needs a year off from international duty to get himself right, and then we can see if he's recovered his form. England are not short of talented loose forwards who could step up - and Borthwick probably needs to bring a few through between now and the next RWC just because of the attritional nature of the position.

We have some good options coming through in the backrow but few with the all round ability of Tom Curry. He can drop in at 6/7/8 internationally and brings a level os physicality and mobility that we've seen others struggle to replicate from club level. Pearson is the closest like for like in the squad and he got mauled at international level due to the step up in physicality.

There are also promising options but few who are mid twenties with north of 50 caps and a real leader in the side. That all being said I'd agree that Curry looks like he's held together with sticky tape at the minute and could probably do with spending some time getting his body absolutely right and then regaining his form.

Poorfour wrote:He's been injured for most of the last two seasons, but I am also looking to see if Jack Kenningham can force his way into consideration. He's played well in his games so far and has a very complete game (including as a lineout option). He's used the time off to add some bulk and if that has added to his carrying he could well get on the England radar.

Will Evans is playing well too, but his size is probably always going to count against him.

Kenningham looks like he's bulked up over the summer as well. That bit of extra physicality should help his game with him playing more at 6. I think he could push on and feature in next summer's tour and then secure a regular squad berth from that.

Evans is a fantastic defensive openside. An absolute menace. Needs to feature more on the other side of the ball though, been the same for years with him. One of the best defensive players in the league but need more than that at international level.

Evans has really worked on his carrying, but realistically he is never going to have the size to break international defences, and he doesn't have the speed or step that Neil Back brought to the role.

The game has changed so much from Backy's days too. His fitness levels made him standout from everyone but Wilko in that England side. Who in turn were viewed as one of the fittest teams ever at the time.

Joe Worsley was talked of as a S&C junkie and the modern pro for those days. He was also infamous at Wasps for going on month long binges towards the end of the season. When the playoffs began, rumours are he didn't stop this. Which led to Worsley being in by a distance the worst shape he'd be in all year for the KO games!

The average carries and tackles per team in a match at the 2003 RWC was around 200. Which was actually a statistical outlier. It dropped significantly in 2007, was still just under that number in 2011. In 2023 it was up at nearly 300. Plus the players are simply bigger and carrying into contact faster and harder. The game's just so different now.

I really love watching Will Evans play. Losing Thacker and then Evans in quick succession were gut blows as a Tigers fan during the dark days. They were just fun to watch as well as so promising. Players who always seem to be near the ball and doing something positive when they're on the pitch. Evan's is brilliant with his line speed and chop tackling, good over the ball and clever with his handling around contact. I'd find myself just naturally watching him as much as the match when he started out for Tigers. That said, I really struggle to see Evans as an international flanker these days. He's not tiny compared to some excellent international 7s such as Lamaro and Jac Morgan either. He's not got their power though. Either carrying or in defence. See Morgan putting Pearson, who stands out for his power at Prem level, on his a**e in the '23 RWC warmups. Whilst both those guys run support lines that 7s players would be proud of. Then I'm not sure Evans has that outlandish work rate and ability to cover ground like Kolisi either. His work rate is good, no doubt. I'd back the likes of Underhill and Earl to have as many
involvements over a match though. Whilst their upsides where the standout, dominant tackles for Underhill and carrying for Earl, are clearly higher.

I'd agree that the back row and lock looks in good shape overall. The emergence of CCS, Earl and Martin as players with obvious carrying ability that England have lacked since the Vunipola's fell away is huge for that.

In turn, we've really lacked bench impact for a good while now. We are developing depth in several positions that should allow loading the bench again. LH has Genge, Marler and Baxter. Lock has three very strong options. Theo Dan is a livewire from the bench.

1.Baxter 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.CCS 7.Underhill 8.Earl
16.Dan 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Martin 20.Curry/Pearson

Something like that has plenty of carrying throughout the starting pack with even more to come from the bench. If they want a proper third lineout option with Chessum at 6, then you can still have CCS on the bench ahead of Martin for the same sort of impact ball in hand.

Re Curry. I desperately hope he can get back to where he was. His ability to regularly make dominant tackles and get over the gain line through traffic are invaluable and a rare combination. I thought he was overall really good in the RWC. He clearly performed individualised roles defensively. Against Samoa, he was kamikaze with his line speed but it looked like a clear team plan to me. England were using him in a role akin to Dupont or Faf as "defensive snipers". He would fly absurdly out the line near the fringes, simply looking to either make a dominant tackle or force their forwards to make a pass they weren't planning to. It looks wild on the surface but was clearly built into England's defensive game plan for the game. Then against Fiji, England weren't contesting the breakdown that much on Fiji's ball outside of Curry. Most the forwards prioritised soak tackles, looked to prevent Fiji's insane offloading game. Then Curry just attacked any breakdown he was near so that Fiji still had to put some sort of numbers in to secure. Again, it looks overly aggressive, with the potential to give away pens at the ruck on the surface. But I thought it was evidently built into their game plan. Tough roles to perform and I thought it telling that Curry was given that responsibility in both cases. He's been incredibly highly rated by all coaches through club, England and the Lions. In NZ, he looked like a guy who had played half an hour in the playoffs after a long injury layoff.

More talk again in the press about Benhard Janse van Rensburg as an England prospect. Provided he stays in England, he qualifies on residency in 2026. Presumably, that's the start of the 26/27 season, which wouldn't leave a lot of time to break into the squad for the World Cup.

Main problem I have with him isn't that he's a South African import. It's that he seems to be called Benhard Janse van Rensburg and also Barend Johannes Janse van Rensburg, which is just confusing.

No thanks. Hes a cracking player...but jeez if we cant produce a flippin 12 i'll despair.

Besides is he doing anything that Lawrence isnt currently doing very well for in England at 12 which isn't his first choice spot?

No thanks. Hes a cracking player...but jeez if we cant produce a flippin 12 i'll despair.

Exactly this

Geordie wrote:No thanks. Hes a cracking player...but jeez if we cant produce a flippin 12 i'll despair.

Besides is he doing anything that Lawrence isnt currently doing very well for in England at 12 which isn't his first choice spot?

The first sentence is the only reason you'd not want him to play for England. He's a fantastic player and has been for a while. Well rounded centre who'd be an international long before now for most almost any other nation if he wasn't South African.

Lawrence could push out to 13 if we were to select him or he can slot into 13 and offer more than Slade does, particularly around carrying.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:No thanks. Hes a cracking player...but jeez if we cant produce a flippin 12 i'll despair.

Besides is he doing anything that Lawrence isnt currently doing very well for in England at 12 which isn't his first choice spot?

The first sentence is the only reason you'd not want him to play for England. He's a fantastic player and has been for a while. Well rounded centre who'd be an international long before now for most almost any other nation if he wasn't South African.

Lawrence could push out to 13 if we were to select him or he can slot into 13 and offer more than Slade does, particularly around carrying.

Well it is International rugby...not lets import the best side we can...

I see Sinfield is not available for the AUs and Japan game due to his UK audience chat tour.

Ha ha ha its becoming a farce.

Geordie wrote:I see Sinfield is not available for the AUs and Japan game due to his UK audience chat tour.

Ha ha ha its becoming a farce.

He'll be involved in the build up and just miss the on the day bit I presume. Shouldn't be the end of the world.

Benhard Janse van Rensburg is on this week's Maul Over Rugby podcast. He's very open that he'd love to play for South Africa but wouldn't turn down a chance with England if that offer came, and the Boks weren't interested. He did say Afrikaans is his first language, he'll probably go back to South Africa after retirement, and his kids would probably be less impressed by an Engand cap than a South African cap.

The podcast said they might forgive an England cap is he uses the match fees to buy a nice house. BJvR said "buy a lot of nice guns".

Rugby Fan wrote:Benhard Janse van Rensburg is on this week's Maul Over Rugby podcast. He's very open that he'd love to play for South Africa but wouldn't turn down a chance with England if that offer came, and the Boks weren't interested. He did say Afrikaans is his first language, he'll probably go back to South Africa after retirement, and his kids would probably be less impressed by an Engand cap than a South African cap.

The podcast said they might forgive an England cap is he uses the match fees to buy a nice house. BJvR said "buy a lot of nice guns".

= An extra big ....No thanks!

England A vs Australia A in the Autumn will tie players I believe. I could certainly see them trying to use that to lock in Fergus Burke for a few years. He qualifies for NZ, England and Scotland. His ability to play 15 could be very useful indeed given how the game is increasingly shifting to fly-half quality kickers and playmakers at 15.

Selection for that game might be telling for whether Dan Kelly is looking at moving to Ireland next season too. There are rumours he's looking at moving but being Ireland Qualified again would presumably be a significant part of that.

Henry Pollock qualifies for Scotland too. He's such a brilliant talent that I expect he will play for England anyway. If they don't want to much around at all then they may well use a game like that to tie him as early as possible though. Every time I see Pollock play I just think that he could be astonishingly good. He reminds me a lot of Kwagga Smith.

I think they've confirmed that the A team games will be used as a player development tool centred around younger talents. I'm expecting this Autumn's squad to be a look into the future with some of our most exciting talent getting the opportunity and also being locked down for three years.

Ioygen, Jibuli, AOF
Tizard, Isiekwe
Pepper, Barbeary, Kenningham
Porter, Burke
Kelly, Joseph
PBB, Barton, Elliott

Blake, Brantingham, Fasogbon, Clark, Pollock, Englefield, Bailey, Butt.

Perhaps a temptation to add another experienced head in there other than Isiekwe just for leadership.

Assuming you mean Iyogun and Jibulu, that’s quite a team. I might be inclined to swap Anyanwu in somewhere in the mix.

You could see quite a few of those being England regulars in the future.

Poorfour wrote:Assuming you mean Iyogun and Jibulu, that’s quite a team. I might be inclined to swap Anyanwu in somewhere in the mix.

You could see quite a few of those being England regulars in the future.

Yes, please excuse my rubbish spelling.

I'm still not sold on Anyanwu as of yet. He might be best served spending a while in the Quins team. He's got big shoes to fill in that 12 shirt. I'm not completely sold on Will Butt either but he's a big lad that covers a chunk of the backline.

Joe El-Abd says he's in for long term with England(unlikely to say otherwise really) and confirms blitz defence will continue. Again as expected.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cly5z60zg8xo

Is George Martin currently injured? And if he is available along with Chessum and Itoje who do you select? Drop CCS back to the bench and have Itoje and Martin in the 2nd row with Chessum at 6?

And do we try Pearson at 7 at some point even if off the bench with Underhill starting initially?

hugehandoff wrote:Is George Martin currently injured? And if he is available along with Chessum and Itoje who do you select? Drop CCS back to the bench and have Itoje and Martin in the 2nd row with Chessum at 6?

And do we try Pearson at 7 at some point even if off the bench with Underhill starting initially?

Yeah his body took a pummeling from smashing the falcons for 80 mins on the weekend and needed a break

Could have Itoje and Martin in 2nd row then Chessum 6, Earl 7 and CCS 8.

George Martin is apparently fit to play this weekend. There was a bit of a bug going round the Tigers camp so it might be that he was a touch unwell.

Fin Carnduff is out to January sadly with a broken foot.

mountain man wrote:Could have Itoje and Martin in 2nd row then Chessum 6, Earl 7 and CCS 8.

Tm Willis must come in to the equation after his start to the season...

Yep plenty of options. I was just throwing out a combination.

The advantage of playing Chessum at 6 is that you can then have two backrow on the bench. Helps maximise impact against tired opposition in the second half.

4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.Chessum 7.Earl 8.CCS is clearly the best starting group for maximising ball carrying. It's what comes on the bench that then concerns me. Whereas, benching just one of Martin or CCS can add so much physicality in the second half. Especially if they consider using Genge/Dan/Stuart as a bench front row. All of whom should add carrying.

I'd lean more towards what the Boks do in that regard. Split your best carriers between the bench and starting. Marx, Snyman and Kwagga on the bench for instance by the Boks. Then something like of Kitshoff, PSdT, Etzebeth and Wiese starting. Unless there is a ridiculous injury crisis, they always have players on the bench who are stronger carriers than those they often replace. Marx for Mbonambi. Mostert for Snyman. Kwagga for Kolisi.

I also like that model as you can look to save your best carriers for carrying in key areas. Ireland are brilliant at that. Less impactful carries such as going through one or two phases to get a better angle for clearing or adding a phase to buy time too reset your structure get done by Ireland's less dynamic carriers. They then save the likes of Doris, Sheehan, Porter and Bierne so they can hit the turbo button when they're in good attacking positions. If all our best carriers are starting, you can't really do that. They end up having to do that dog work by default. A starter such as Underhill who covers a s**t ton of ground, takes on the straight to ground and recycle type carries, hits rucks, etc, that can allow the dynamic carriers we have to be used where most impactful as much as possible.

Obviously, the insane tight five depth the Boks have makes that easier for them than anyone else. England are starting to develop some depth at second row and back row though. I'd try to use it to utilise the bench better. Which England have largely been poor at since about 2020. Even in a game where they want to really prioritise the lineout with three locks starting, you could do something like below:

1.Baxter 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.Chessum 7.Underhill 8.Earl
16.Dan 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Curry/Pearson 20.CCS

That's got a balanced starting pack and a full set of replacement forwards who can all add carrying to some extent. That's without considering a 6-2 bench split and bringing someone such as Coles in.

I see a lot of potential in the group of forwards we've got coming together at the moment.

Geordie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Benhard Janse van Rensburg is on this week's Maul Over Rugby podcast. He's very open that he'd love to play for South Africa but wouldn't turn down a chance with England if that offer came, and the Boks weren't interested. He did say Afrikaans is his first language, he'll probably go back to South Africa after retirement, and his kids would probably be less impressed by an Engand cap than a South African cap.

The podcast said they might forgive an England cap is he uses the match fees to buy a nice house. BJvR said "buy a lot of nice guns".

= An extra big ....No thanks!

I know it is a pointless debate as people tend to have an immovable view on this, but it seems strange that people have no problem with Sam Underhill playing for England, but are repulsed at the thought of Benhard Janse van Rensburg playing.

Every other country quite happily considers players which are available for them to select – would Ireland for instance be the team they are without the likes of Fua Leiofi Bundellu Aki and Jamison Ratu Gibson-Park?  It just seems to be a particularly English view that in a professional sport we don’t need to play to the rules and pick the best players which are available.  Would you be happy if Steve Borthwick took the arbitrary decision not to pick players born in Cumbria or Northumberland because they were once part of Scotland?  Not considering Benhard Janse van Rensburg for England seems to be as irrational a decision.

Underhill though is English! He was born in the USA but that was because his father(English) was stationed there for RAF.

Bit different to a pure bred Saffer.

nlpnlp wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Benhard Janse van Rensburg is on this week's Maul Over Rugby podcast. He's very open that he'd love to play for South Africa but wouldn't turn down a chance with England if that offer came, and the Boks weren't interested. He did say Afrikaans is his first language, he'll probably go back to South Africa after retirement, and his kids would probably be less impressed by an Engand cap than a South African cap.

The podcast said they might forgive an England cap is he uses the match fees to buy a nice house. BJvR said "buy a lot of nice guns".

= An extra big ....No thanks!

I know it is a pointless debate as people tend to have an immovable view on this, but it seems strange that people have no problem with Sam Underhill playing for England, but are repulsed at the thought of Benhard Janse van Rensburg playing.

Every other country quite happily considers players which are available for them to select – would Ireland for instance be the team they are without the likes of Fua Leiofi Bundellu Aki and Jamison Ratu Gibson-Park?  It just seems to be a particularly English view that in a professional sport we don’t need to play to the rules and pick the best players which are available.  Would you be happy if Steve Borthwick took the arbitrary decision not to pick players born in Cumbria or Northumberland because they were once part of Scotland?  Not considering Benhard Janse van Rensburg for England seems to be as irrational a decision.

I think it's generally the attitude of the player rather than the nation of their birth. If BJVR was talking up how England feels like home and how it would be an honour to wear the Red Rose most would welcome him as a prospective England international. The comments posted earlier suggest he sees an England cap as a consolation prize and that he sees South Africa as home, nothing wrong with that, he's allowed to be a proud South African but it's unlikely then to lend itself to people wanting him to represent them as an England international.

nlpnlp wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Benhard Janse van Rensburg is on this week's Maul Over Rugby podcast. He's very open that he'd love to play for South Africa but wouldn't turn down a chance with England if that offer came, and the Boks weren't interested. He did say Afrikaans is his first language, he'll probably go back to South Africa after retirement, and his kids would probably be less impressed by an Engand cap than a South African cap.

The podcast said they might forgive an England cap is he uses the match fees to buy a nice house. BJvR said "buy a lot of nice guns".

= An extra big ....No thanks!

I know it is a pointless debate as people tend to have an immovable view on this, but it seems strange that people have no problem with Sam Underhill playing for England, but are repulsed at the thought of Benhard Janse van Rensburg playing.

Every other country quite happily considers players which are available for them to select – would Ireland for instance be the team they are without the likes of Fua Leiofi Bundellu Aki and Jamison Ratu Gibson-Park?  It just seems to be a particularly English view that in a professional sport we don’t need to play to the rules and pick the best players which are available.  Would you be happy if Steve Borthwick took the arbitrary decision not to pick players born in Cumbria or Northumberland because they were once part of Scotland?  Not considering Benhard Janse van Rensburg for England seems to be as irrational a decision.

No its just the fact many people see international rugby as players produced in that country or near enough links..ie both parents born in that country etc.

I'm probably one of the the main ones on here rhat doesn't like any old Joe who've lived here for 3 years (now 5) playing for England. But I'll accept if they're born elsewhere and lived here from young....ie learnt their Rugby here.

I also hate the feckin grandparents rule...its BS.

As for Cumbria / Northumbria ...yes let's ask the picts for their views on international rugby...

No-one really complains about Manu Tuilagi or the Vunipola brothers, who all qualified through residency. They all played age-grade for England. As a consequence, Mako Vunipola almost feels more English than Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, who has an English grandmother.

Although Immanuel Feyi-Waboso has a Welsh accent, the fact he has grown up in British rugby makes him feel less like an import than players like Thomas Waldrom and Brad Shields, who also qualified through grandparents.

It's odd how much accent affects your perspective on a player. Born to English parents, Chandler Cunningham-South came through the NZ system, going as far as Canterbury u19s before opportunities arose in England. In interviews, he sounds English. Nic Dolly has has only one English parent, joined English rugby at the U18 level, and sounds Australian (he's back in Australia now). It's hard to remember now but there were some who were never that keen on Mike Catt playing for England because he still had a South African accent.

While Geordie has spelled out some of his red lines, I suspect most English supporters go case-by-case. While there are some who never liked the selection of residency-qualified Riki Flutey, it seemed like playing in England brought he best out of him, and there was no comparable English player at the time. Similarly, England's lack of of a good open-side breakdown operator pushed Hendre Fourie into the frame, and many supporters would have liked England to play him more.

On the other hand, I was always annoyed with Lesley Vainikolo. Not just because he had played League for New Zealand and Sevens for Tonga. The main reason to regret his England selection is that it kept James Simpson-Daniel out of the team. While I didn't mind Mouritz Botha quite so much, it always felt like he was no more than a journeyman, so a homegrown journeyman might have been preferable.

Rugby Fan wrote:No-one really complains about Manu Tuilagi or the Vunipola brothers, who all qualified through residency. They all played age-grade for England. As a consequence, Mako Vunipola almost feels more English than Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, who has an English grandmother.

Although Immanuel Feyi-Waboso has a Welsh accent, the fact he has grown up in British rugby makes him feel less like an import than players like Thomas Waldrom and Brad Shields, who also qualified through grandparents.

It's odd how much accent affects your perspective on a player. Born to English parents, Chandler Cunningham-South came through the NZ system, going as far as Canterbury u19s before opportunities arose in England. In interviews, he sounds English. Nic Dolly has has only one English parent, joined English rugby at the U18 level, and sounds Australian (he's back in Australia now). It's hard to remember now but there were some who were never that keen on Mike Catt playing for England because he still had a South African accent.

While Geordie has spelled out some of his red lines, I suspect most English supporters go case-by-case. While there are some who never liked the selection of residency-qualified Riki Flutey, it seemed like playing in England brought he best out of him, and there was no comparable English player at the time. Similarly, England's lack of of a good open-side breakdown operator pushed Hendre Fourie into the frame, and many supporters would have liked England to play him more.

On the other hand, I was always annoyed with Lesley Vainikolo. Not just because he had played League for New Zealand and Sevens for Tonga. The main reason to regret his England selection is that it kept James Simpson-Daniel out of the team. While I didn't mind Mouritz Botha quite so much, it always felt like he was no more than a journeyman, so a homegrown journeyman might have been preferable.

I'm not red l8ne rigid per say, I appreciate there are grey areas and such...but just certain cases drive me crazy.

CCS did come through in NZ but born in Britain to British parents. Feels English and is proud to represent England. The second sentence is more important to me than the first.

Squad to be named tomorrow. Any bolters or changes to the training squad expected?

I'm expecting Joe Heyes back in. Been in great form so far and has taken the starting jersey off of Cole and looked twice the player of Davison at the weekend.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Squad to be named tomorrow. Any bolters or changes to the training squad expected?

I'm expecting Joe Heyes back in. Been in great form so far and has taken the starting jersey off of Cole and looked twice the player of Davison at the weekend.

It's hard to guess - the summer squad was shaped somewhat by injuries, and the autumn may be similar. From the training squad, I don't think there are any fresh injuries from the weekend but Mitchell, Northmore, Dombrandt, Slade and Ford are all still out. On the other hand, the Currys are back and could rotate in for Roots or Pearson

The big questions are around outside centre (probably Dingwall, but Beard has looked good in the last couple of games) and scrum half (JvP vs Randall?). I don't know if he will call up any bolters this close to a tough autumn.

Forwards

Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 2 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 62 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 95 caps)

Jamie George (Saracens, 93 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, 14 caps)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 41 caps)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 115 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 41 caps)
Trevor Davison (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)

Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 84 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 31 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)

Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, 7 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 38 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 53 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 33 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 17 caps)


Backs

Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 7 caps)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)

Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 35 caps)
Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Ford? - down as rehabilitation and expected to start training again next week.

Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 65 caps)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, 5 caps)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins, 2 caps)

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, 6 caps)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, 1 cap)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 69 caps)

George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps)

Fairly disappointing squad there. Davison fresh from having a stinker as part of a beaten Saints pack is picked ahead of the form EQ tighthead in Heyes. Dombrandt, Northmore, Ford, Slade all picked despite not being fit.

Elliott Daly?!?

Yeah some disappointing picks, Ewels, Dombrandt, Daly, Slade.
It is though 36 man initial squad so I guess we see who makes final match squad.

For obvious reasons im a big fan of Davison but in over Hayes whos started the season very well indeed?

No Tom Willis?
The rest...yeah you could make calls for others but probably no huge difference in players.

Maybe Tom Curry should have been given more time away from Int rugby to just get himself fit and in form. Hes had a huge injury to come back from.

No Ted Hill again so clearly that ship has totally sailed now....expect to see Chessum at 6, and Itoje and Martin in the engine room.