UEFA Euro 2024

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It's coming up. Who are you supporting? Who do you think will win? Who gets the golden boot?

How you feeling for your teams chances? I'm not massively into international footy but a tournament is always a laugh.

I have France winning the lot. Maybeee Kane for golden boot. Yeah that'll do. I'll be supporting The Netherlands I reckon.

Southgate taking us into another final. He’s seen what wins tournaments and prioritised that. Deschamps has never been a manager of attractive football.

Basically, his weaknesses are things we can see, his strengths are both more ‘backstage’ so don’t get seen by the fans, and also less appreciated until the results come in.

He’s been bashed for not being perfect, and the tragedy of familiarity and a what have you done for me lately culture.

mountain man wrote:Except maybe, just maybe he knows what he's doing? I agree performances have been poor to awful BUT we are in final. That is all that matters.
Would someone else have got us there? Maybe but maybe not. All we do know is Southgate did and for 2nd consecutive Euros.

So yes, you can say lucky but wasn't it Greg Norman who said the more I practise the luckier I get.

For what it's worth I cannot see England beating Spain but have to be in it to win it.

The games against Slovakia and Switzerland indicate not.

The games that got us through? Yes, been far better to change it and not get to final...

GSC wrote:Tough but doable. Spain are very good going forward but pretty open, like the Dutch were yesterday. Georgia in particular had a lot of joy with their ball carriers running directly at the heart of the Spanish defense, which should suit Foden, Saka and Bellingham. In general this may play to Southgate ball

Yes, they haven't kept a clean sheet in three games, and I think there is a weakness at the heart of their defence. Similar to the Dutch game, the likes of Foden, Saka and Bellingham should be able to find space to operate in.

The question is how much ball England can get. Mainoo has possibly been England's player of the tournament, it's the biggest game of his life so far on Sunday. He and Rice have such a job on their hands. I thought Rice was quite poor yesterday, hopefully just a one-off occurrence.

I think it's crucial that Watkins starts over Kane. Watkins can make runs to create space for the attacking midfielders, Kane simply can't do that. Watkins' goal yesterday, he makes a superb diagonal run into the space. It simply doesn't happen with Kane. But it would be such a massive call and would perhaps place too much pressure on Watkins. And I really hope Shaw is fit as well, because having a viable left flank makes such a difference.

mountain man wrote:The games that got us through? Yes, been far better to change it and not get to final...

The games that got England through because of world-class individual moments. Bellingham scoring a 95th minute overhead kick, England's first shot on target, is not a moment to praise Southgate, but a moment to wonder why England were in that perilous position in the first place.

Look, England at times been terrible and it's justifiable to criticise. However my point is England are in final and no-one can say that would be case with another manager.

Southgate has received way too much abuse considering what he has done for team.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Southgate taking us into another final. He’s seen what wins tournaments and prioritised that. Deschamps has never been a manager of attractive football.

Basically, his weaknesses are things we can see, his strengths are both more ‘backstage’ so don’t get seen by the fans, and also less appreciated until the results come in.

He’s been bashed for not being perfect, and the tragedy of familiarity and a what have you done for me lately culture.

Somewhere theres a french duty arguing that Deschamps only winning a world cup is a poor return and he cost them a euros and WC final

Thing is, regardless of Southgate's performances prior to this tournament, until last night he hadn't actually managed to get the team playing anywhere near their potential at this tournanemt, and that was the frustrating thing.

GSC wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Southgate taking us into another final. He’s seen what wins tournaments and prioritised that. Deschamps has never been a manager of attractive football.

Basically, his weaknesses are things we can see, his strengths are both more ‘backstage’ so don’t get seen by the fans, and also less appreciated until the results come in.

He’s been bashed for not being perfect, and the tragedy of familiarity and a what have you done for me lately culture.

Somewhere theres a french duty arguing that Deschamps only winning a world cup is a poor return and he cost them a euros and WC final

Probably is a poor return considering their talent! But they were frightfully unfortunate to not win the last World Cup, so I wouldn't knock him for that.

Last two Euros for the French have definitely been poor.

Nearly twelve years at the helm. Wikipedia tells me that's the 19th longest reign of any international manager.

GSC wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Southgate taking us into another final. He’s seen what wins tournaments and prioritised that. Deschamps has never been a manager of attractive football.

Basically, his weaknesses are things we can see, his strengths are both more ‘backstage’ so don’t get seen by the fans, and also less appreciated until the results come in.

He’s been bashed for not being perfect, and the tragedy of familiarity and a what have you done for me lately culture.

Somewhere theres a french duty arguing that Deschamps only winning a world cup is a poor return and he cost them a euros and WC final

That poor French guy has had a terrible week. Getting knocked out of the euros and the recent election not going to plan.

mountain man wrote:Look, England at times been terrible and it's justifiable to criticise. However my point is England are in final and no-one can say that would be case with another manager.

Southgate has received way too much abuse considering what he has done for team.

And quite a lot of that goes back to him not having been a successful club manager before moving into an England role. Remember he had good success as the U21 manager before being drafted in as an emergency measure when Allardyce screwed up - if you'd said 8 years ago that he'd have led England to two Euro Finals, one WC semi Final (that we really should have had sewn up in the first half) and a WC quarters that we were unlucky to lose against the best team in the tournament, people would have thought you were crazy.

He's had some luck along the way with the emergence of a group of very good younger players (Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Palmer, Rice, Mainoo) and some fairly kind draws in tournament knock out stages (but not England's fault if in winning their group all the strong sides ended in the other side of the draw because they DIDN'T win theirs).

Yes, sometimes the style of play can be frustrating, and the negative mindset has cost them on occasion (lat Euros final was there for the taking), but there have also been some great performances that get overlooked.

I do think Southgate, as with some others, is much better suited to managing at international level than at top club level - it's not his job to develop players, just to use what he's got and to try to gel them into a team in the short term.

The striker debate is an interesting one. Watkins has understandably jumped Toney in the must play position, but equally I believe he (and Palmer) are much more effective as replacements against a tiring defense. Make a case for Toney in a game where England probably need the ball to stick but equally if England get a chance, who else in this squad do you want it to fall to in a key moment than Kane. Form is temporary, class is permanent comes to mind a little.

The issue to me is less Kane dropping deep and more the lack of runs beyond him. Bellingham's tried it from deep a few times but Foden very much wants to receive the ball and turn than run beyond. Telling when he did that against the Dutch he had the ball cleared off the line. It's a skill Sterling did well for England when he and Kane effectively played as two up top. Probably falls to Bellingham in this team

The Football Association will attempt to convince Gareth Southgate to remain as England manager regardless of the outcome of Sunday’s final against Spain, the Telegraph reports.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

GSC wrote:The striker debate is an interesting one. Watkins has understandably jumped Toney in the must play position, but equally I believe he (and Palmer) are much more effective as replacements against a tiring defense. Make a case for Toney in a game where England probably need the ball to stick but equally if England get a chance, who else in this squad do you want it to fall to in a key moment than Kane. Form is temporary, class is permanent comes to mind a little.

The issue to me is less Kane dropping deep and more the lack of runs beyond him. Bellingham's tried it from deep a few times but Foden very much wants to receive the ball and turn than run beyond. Telling when he did that against the Dutch he had the ball cleared off the line. It's a skill Sterling did well for England when he and Kane effectively played as two up top. Probably falls to Bellingham in this team

I could see an argument for either Toney or Watkins starting. You start Toney, he offers that physical presence for 60/65 minutes, then you bring Watkins on for his pace to stretch Spain late. Or you do it the other way round. Stretch Spain early, you'd expect a lot of counter attacking play from England in this one, then bring on the big man. After Watkins' lethal finish, I'm inclined to favour him over Toney.

I used to agree about Kane being the best player to take a possible chance, and that was always a powerful justification even if he were only half fit. But his movement is so bad than it hinders possible chances. When Saka has put good crosses into the box, Kane is nowhere in the vicinity. But Toney or Watkins will be.

All academic though, I can't see a scenario where Southgate benches Kane.

Kane has always dropped deep though, in the past England have had other players making those runs past him. Son at Spurs also comes to mind. Foden won't do it so Jude has to I think. I do agree Kane looks limited with his back injury though.

Germany game 3 years ago as an example Kane and Sterling are both around the 6 yard box, can't think of too many times England have had that in this tournament (two offside goals granted).

It's equally an issue with Toney if players aren't making those runs

Watkins started one of the warm up games and IIRC was pretty poor - wasn't able to keep hold of the ball and his movement didn't trouble the packed defence. Coming on against a tiring defence is a different proposition.

One thing that has frustrated me in the last couple of games is that Saka in particular has about half a dozen times made good breaks in wide areas and pulled the ball back between the 6 yard box and penalty spot and there has been no-one attacking that space - normally would have Kane and/or a central midfielder arriving. So we've had no shots on goal, but situations where there really should have been

I thought Kane was good first half against the Dutch - as GSC notes he’s always dropped deep and got involved in build up, it’s part of what makes him world class.
I don’t think Toney is an improvement from a mobility standpoint either - he’s not good at pressing and I think the way he’s been used this tournament is fine.

I’d do what we did in the semi final honestly with Kane. Play 65-70 minutes and then Watkins on against a tiring defence. As dummy notes, Watkins more effective in this role too than his previous England starts.

More interesting is Trippier/Shaw. Is Shaw fit enough to do a full 90, or will he have to come off the bench again? If Shaw can only do 45-60, I think I actually again prefer him coming off the bench at half time as he did in the semi…especially as that then might give Trippier a little more license to rough up Yamal a bit, if he knows he’s coming off at HT

Pretty much agree with you on this , Olly. Did see some suggestion that Trippier might have had some niggle which might impede him (?) but I thought it was all about a planned change to ensure Shaw wouldn't need to play a whole game - and in that case I see no reason why they wouldn't do the same again.
Absolutely want Kane to start. Has been far from his best , sure. But still has three goals and is one the opposition will always fear as we all know how good he generally is on pouncing on any sort of a chance to score. Have two good alternatives to introduce as needed late in the game ; which seems to be the ideal set of options.
No need for any other changes. Some concern about the wear and tear on the players who have been omnipresent , especially given the two extra time games and the one day less rest than Spain ; but nothing you can do about that except be ready to utilize the bench if needed in the later stages. Some 21 of the 26 have had game time so spoiled for choice if anyone does have to come off early.

Going to be tough : Spain have looked pretty good so far. But reckon they are a great chance as long as they can take their opportunities because I think they will have a few in what just might be a game in which more than 1 or 2 goals are scored...

dummy_half wrote:I do think Southgate, as with some others, is much better suited to managing at international level than at top club level - it's not his job to develop players, just to use what he's got and to try to gel them into a team in the short term.

I agree with this, which is still probably an underappreciated point generally if you look at the names that get suggested out there as alternatives. For a long time, the criticism of England has been that they're too naive to get the most out of their resources. Finally they've somehow ended up with an English manager that understands, and plays, tournament football. It's not always the most fun to watch, but people won't care as long as they win.

My issues with Kane dropping deep is:

1) There's hardly ever any runs in behind from Foden/Saka/Bellingham. Kane has the ability to play a gorgeous 30 yard pass to a man running through, like he did all those times with Son at Tottenham, but when there are no runs this becomes pointless.

2) Kane doesn't have the fitness/mobility/speed to get back into his number nine position quickly after dropping deep, which has led to three instances in the last two games where Saka has put a good ball into the box, only for Kane to be nowhere in the vicinity.

Spain will have had a perfect demonstration on how to play by the Dutch. The Dutch showed in the first half how not to beat England; in the second half they closed England's creators off more successfully (until Watkins' goal!). It's a good blueprint to follow!

I'm expecting Spain to play very possession heavy. They had 57% v Italy and 58% v France. They had much less v Germany, but were sitting off for large spells. England's high press has been abysmal throughout the tournament, and the Dutch played it through easily a few times, Spain are another couple of levels up from that, so I imagine England will be sitting quite deep. Spain will know that when they have possession in the England half, it won't be too arduous to retain it, and will become a battle of patience.

Spain's high press, by contrast, is excellent, so we might see a fair few long balls punted up by Pickford, which is probably why I favour Toney starting.

Spain's attacks have generally come down the flanks, Williams on one side, Yamal on the other, with Morata quite deep, so I'm unsure of the need for England to play three centre backs. One thing for sure is that Spain can be absolutely lethal on the break, with the pace they possess, so when England do lose possession in the Spain half, they need to be sharp in the transition to defence. Yamal v Trippier is a battle that one of those two players will be relishing. It's not quite Ronaldo v Cole, is it?

The central midfield battle for England against the Dutch wasn't too strenuous against a couple of mediocre Dutch players, even if Rice didn't have his best game. The game v Spain will be another tier of challenge, with Rodri and Ruiz generally managing to dictate play. It's going to a big challenge for Rice, who needs to be much better, and the young Mainoo, who has possibly been the best England player at this tournament.

One bit that Alfie touched on is wear and tear, which is an absolutely fair point. England's players are a lot more worn than the Spanish players, exacerbated by Spain getting the earlier SF. Spain's most played outfield player is Rodri, with 476 minutes. Spain have five other outfielders who have played 400+ minutes. England have three outfield players who have played all 600 minutes of the competition (Rice, Stones and Walker), plus Bellingham, Saka, Kane and Foden who have done over 500, and Guehi who has played 480 minutes (would have been 600 if not for suspension). This is because Southgate has used the bench incorrectly, but also not rotated the team, as well as two spells of ET compared to one for Spain. Spain have also benefited, in the long term, from two players being suspended for the SF.

England's chance creation and conversion has been very low through the tournament. Whereas Spain have scored 13 goals, England have stuck in seven. And Spain have certainly had the tougher fixture list! There's no standout for England. Foden had possibly the best game he's ever played for England in the SF, while we're still waiting to see what Bellingham can do throughout a game. Saka has been the most consistent threat for England, but I wager he'll be doing a lot more defensive work in this game with Cucurella and Williams on his flank. They're three extraordinary players, but how much ball are they going to get?

Overall, I saw the Dutch game as close, with the most likely winners being the Netherlands. I was pleased to be proven wrong. This against Spain is a much harder challenge. Spain carry pretty much every advantage going into this one, including being fresher. I think it would be a fairly sizable upset if England were to triumph, and if it happens it'll probably require Pickford to pull out numerous great saves and England to be utterly lethal with the few chances they get. I suppose it would need to be like the 2018 Nations League game, where Spain had 73% possession (though I'm not thinking they'll get that much this time) and 24 shots to England's five, but England were lethal and came out as 3-2 winners.

Spain to win by a couple in 90 minutes, 2-0 or 3-1, but I hope to goodness to be proven wrong.

Can't really see England winning, although for some reason I'm more hopeful than I was for the final v Italy at Wembley.

Kane probably should be left out, but won't be. If England lose, as is likely, I hope it's not on penalties.

As in the WC in 2022, the standard of creative pay and finishing has been poor. The final pass and the shooting has been way below top standard. Sides now for more than a decade have confused possession with penetration. Players have got so used to kicking the ball sideways and backwards that they can hardly construct a forward pass.

To complete the picture while forward play has got worse, defending has got better, with blocking, and some very brave blocking at that, particularly good.Consequently we are now getting some very boring matches. Goalie throws the ball out to fullback who can't, or won't play it forward, so it back it goes to the goalie etc etc etc...

I think part of it is club football has become incredibly system oriented and players are drilled on attacking shapes and build up patterns daily. Just isn't the time to implement the same in international football.

Though to be honest I've enjoyed this tournament a lot more than watching City play % football

England set to be unchanged apparently.

Feeling very pessimistic (I've also remembered Kane's trophy curse, so further pessimism), but hopeful that some England players will have the game of their lives later.

Going to stick Diamond Lights on repeat in an effort to find some optimism.

Diamond Lights has worked because Shaw is set to start.

Optimism bubbling away now.

Trippier ill I understand. Hope Shaw's pace is better than the other day as he has a fast direct opponent.

Nervous start. Losing the ball a lot...

Nothing sums it up better under Southgate than England playing it back to Pickford and him launching it upfield straight from kick off, like it's 1977.

Spain dominating. Morata not getting picked up. Rice not having a good start again. Kane doesn't have the mobility to contest these high balls. Walker also hobbling.

Pattern of the game emerging very early on. England happy to sit off & sit deep. Spain happy to keep the ball until they see fit to work an opening...

If the hope is to hit on the counter then passing will need to be incredibly sharp (hast been thus far) and our midfielders will need to break quickly & pray Kane isnt 40 yards deeper than he should be.

Biggest concern for me at the moment is seeing how free Williams is on this right side....Saka no where near him & Walker playing like a CB

Better last few minutes. Shaw playing some neat passes and encouraging to see Walker make overlapping runs.

Kane yet to win a ball in the air...or get one to feet...

Sloppy passing again.

If you set up to play this defensive then you have to get out fast when the ball breaks, ensure first pass is a good one & have an outlet to get the ball too. England are doing/have none of those.

Take Kane off! Useless.

There's no point in pumping these long balls to Kane - he can barely get his feet off the ground!

owen10ozzy wrote:Take Kane off! Useless.

Before anyone says....obviously not in terms of generally...do mean in the context of a) his form/fitness at the moment & b) how England are set up & thus what we need from him

Kane with another donkey first touch.

Should never have started.

Should be a card there for the Spanish midfielder, and a FK in scoring position for England.

Ref misses it.

Even when we win the ball, especially deep/on our own box...absolutely no outlet to pass to and thus relieve the pressure.

Spain may not have created much but if you hold the ball as long as they have and spend over 3/4 of the game in the oppositions half, chances are you win a football match.

Half Time - 0-0 - Certainly take that. Spain dominating possession but not doing much with it yet. England arguably best chance of the half.

Plus point - Nulified the threats of the 2 stand out players thus far (Yamal/Williams)

Bellingham is winning a good share of the balls.

Negatives - Expending a lot of work, mentally more than anything, having to track everything & ensure spaces are minimal. The downside to allowing a team to have so much ball.

Passing has for the most part been very sloppy

Kane - other than a quarter chance at best towards the end just hasnt shown up at all. Hasnt won a ball in the ait. Gave away possession a few times. Looks  2 yards off it.


Very much the feel of a Championship team turning up to an FA Cup final knowing they are huge underdogs and just hoping to cling on & get 1 opportunity to perhaps win the game.

Spain dominating possession but England have soaked up the pressure pretty well. Shaw has been good , especially for a man who has only just got back into action - hope he has the legs for 90 minutes.

Second halves in this competition have often been rather different so we must wait and see...

Pretty much as expected. Done well defensively, Spain are taking a big risk defensively and just about got away with it

Should open up in the second half

Game of very few chances, but Spain largely in control.

Give credit to Walker and Shaw for how well they're doing in their battles so far. Most of Spain's attacks have come down their left/England's right through Williams, a very tricky operator.

England's midfield duo are static and barely doing anything off the ball, allowing Spain to dictate with their 70% possession, and neither have been good in possession. 70% Spanish ball...England are going to be tired, especially as their team have worked through more minutes than the Spanish in this tournament. The bench will be required.

Foden's generally got the ball in ineffective areas deep in his own half. Bellingham's had it a bit further up, but has been shackled well by the Spanish. Though the best English opening came when Bellingham forced an error from Carvajal; unfortunately England weren't sharp enough to take full advantage.

The most depressing thing is watching Pickford launch those long balls to a man who can't jump, never mind compete in the air. If England want to do this, they need to get Toney on.

Morata and Olmo's movement is proving very tricky for England to deal with. And I liked when Williams/Yamal doubled up temporarily on the Spanish right.

Been very frustrated with the refereeing. He's missed three bookings on Spanish players (two cynical fouls and the step on Foden which was exactly the same as Kane's yellow), and the challenge on Rice...well, I've seen reds given for those.

Spain are the better team, but it's level and it only takes that one chance.

Thought rodri might have hurt himself on the kane block, looks like he's off

Spain will miss Rodri if he's off at HT

Big setback for Spain. Chance for England to get at least parity in midfield.

Absolutely appalling!

Deserved goal for Spain. Gorgeous flick from Carvajal, then they work the overload. Sweet finish.

Thats what happens when you sit off players...and your RB positionally stands where your CBs are.

Williams always looked the big threat...got to come back from behind again.