UEFA Euro 2024

First topic message reminder :

It's coming up. Who are you supporting? Who do you think will win? Who gets the golden boot?

How you feeling for your teams chances? I'm not massively into international footy but a tournament is always a laugh.

I have France winning the lot. Maybeee Kane for golden boot. Yeah that'll do. I'll be supporting The Netherlands I reckon.

I'm gonna be honest

Go get Bielsa

The one name I've seen suggested is Frank Lampard. No idea where that's come from, as his club management career has been somewhat hit and miss to say the least, and I'm not aware of him having done anything within the FA structure (age group management for example) that would suggest he might be successful as England boss.

I'm not so sure that you should be looking to a successful club manager, as the international game is very different - Southgate has been excellent at building team spirit (remember what the more talented on paper England teams were like in the decade before he started), but has been criticised (sometimes with justification) for over-loyalty to certain players and for the tactics he employed. If we could find another Southgate with regards to team building but with a bit more idea on progressive football then it would be an upgrade.

Southgates loyalty to players made the omission of Maguire even more surprising; always done a good job for England and provided an invaluable set piece threat that was non existent throughout the tournament (until the final five minutes). His aerial dominance freed up other players in the box, not suggesting he should have started matches but could have been a bench option.

I do think it's time for a foreign manager, you have players who on the whole play in continental systems for their clubs who are then being coached by people who aren't comfortable with those systems.

Maguire for me was an odd one in terms of Southgate probably should've started phasing him out in the 2 years to the world cup but then just dumped him out the squad at the last minute. Guehi and Konsa had good tournaments though despite the fears going in. Set pieces a big miss

Maguire wasn't fit for selection, or at least would have missed the group games, and with reasonable cover for those positions his omission made some sense (although I agree that his set piece strength in both boxes was missed).

And conversely I think because Shaw is by far the best left back we have, picking him even though he wasn't going to be fit enough to play until the knockout games was the correct decision, especially with a 26 player squad - you can argue whether there should have been a further left footed left back / wing back in the squad at the expense of Gomez or Wharton, based on the time they played.

Harry Maguire, one of the England players some so called fans love to hate but invariably been excellent for England.
In fairness Guehi and Konsa were really good and Shaw showed last night what England missed when he wasn't there.

Lampard? Hmm not sure he's the manager England need. Whilst a foreign coach shouldn't be ruled out, ideally England have an English coach. Can anyone imagine say Spain or France having an English coach?

GSC wrote:I thought Saka was good in spurts but overall I think he went missing for large parts of games tbh. Certainly another who didn't reach his usual levels if better than the rest I agree. Would've liked to have seen him go at Cucurella when he had moments.

Should be it for Walker now I agree. Find a way to get Trent in

Saka looks to cut in alot...like Yamal, which is fine when your team mates are making runs dragging defenders and making space. But the few times Saka did so he ended up in heavy traffic.

The movement within the team, the strategy needs adapting now.
How are we setting up...

3 or 4 at the back.
Wingbacks?
Can Foden AND Bellingham be at their best together in the same team?
I agree above...do we have a Pirlo / Modric style tactician..?
Thats just the first few questions.

On the plus...Guehi looks made for this level....

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely we just appoint Duty to be manager? He seems to have all the answers? Owen as an assistant and we'd just win every game 4-0?

It's a decent call but I would be worried about Duty's workload. He's still figuring out how to win us the Ashes.

I find it baffling that anyone who criticises him more than praises is called a detractor...or a hater...or a keyboard warrior or entitled?

Essentially from what ive read on here and other sites most people who want him gone are of the same assessment. He has done a wonderful job in rebuilding this national side, from a man management side he has bread a loyalty for country/willingness to put club football aside and brought about a togetherness not seen in a very long time.

His biggest criticism has always been that he isnt the greatest tactically & that isnt anything new but rather has been proven time & time again under his tenure. If we were talking club football & a team continued to reach finals or take league races to the last few games of the season and then came undone in the biggest games/moments at some point it would be under scrutiny. Not sure why it should be different at international level?

It's also not like we are talking about a manager who has absolutely no riches at his disposal. He has some top top quality footballers, more so now than at any other time during his stint. Yet he has failed to actually significantly change his style of football over the 7 years despite the talent pool changing. This is especially true in the games against the biggest challenges when he has always reverted to type. It is part of the reason why we have constantly fallen short be it at the final hurdle or against the biggest/best teams. You cant just dismiss that & their is an element of "easier side" when it comes to the draws he has had.

Yes we have had to win the groups and we have done that. But ultimately had we run into "stronger" teams earlier on would his record be as good - his win % against Top 10 sides would suggest absolutely not (just over 30% win rate when facing teams ranked above them & within 5 spots below)

Fine margins hold large sway over public opinion. We were 90 seconds away against Slovakia or a penalty shootout away against Switzerland from English football being toxic again

GSC wrote:At this one yeah, felt a tournament too far as I said. But also looked a lot like fatigue and attrition had laid into a lot of the players. And also not really alone in that, that was pretty much all the big names bar Spain. Managing workload is also gonna be a big thing

And that's one of the key points against Southgate. He didn't manage workload successfully.

I pointed it out before the Spain game. England had seven outfield players who had played 500-600 minutes in the tournament going into the final. Spain had zero. Then Spain proceeded to look after the ball, England didn't.

It's not as if England had a poor bench either, Southgate just didn't like using it. The most egregious example was how much Kane was flogged, but how little Watkins and Toney played in comparison.

I think when someone offers a balanced opinion most people can accept that.  

When someone offers a skewed opinion then people will tend to respond to that.  

When someone gives the same skewed opinion over and over again using what might be called a grape shot approach then people will begin to see that the person is pushing a fixed conclusion in search of an argument.

This doesn't just happen when discussing sport.

dummy_half wrote:

GSC wrote:Tough one to take. Maybe not as bad as 2021 but still so near yet so far again.

First of all congrats to Spain. They were favourites because they were the outstanding international team since their 2008-12 vintage. They beat both of the finalists from the last Euros, they beat the world cup finalists, they beat the hosts. we can be disappointed while acknowledging the standard of opposition here.

They also had to be blunt, a team of players that looked fresher and in better form than most of the rest of the field. In truth regardless of the manager, Kane, Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Saka and Walker all had fairly underwhelming tournaments. We can talk systems, tactics etc but there isnt a massive amount the manager can do if the key players just aren't going to turn up.

...

I'd take Saka off that list, as, while he wasn't as good as he can be, he had a decent tournament overall. I think the lack of a centre forward attacking the near post made him reluctant to take the ball outside and look to pull it back.

Foden and Bellingham had a few moments, but if these are the EPL and La Liga players of the year, they should be doing MUCH more. Does trying to play them together result in a square peg in around hole somewhere? Palmer outshone both as a creative midfielder / #10

Rice looks half the player for England that he is for Arsenal. Sloppy loses of possession in our half and not offering as much going forward as for his club.

Kane looked knackered from the start. If he wasn't Captain, surely he'd have been dropped.

Ans I've never been a fan of Walker. Decent defender, but relies on his pace to recover being out of position, and is still too careless with the ball - can hit a decent 50 yard crossfield pass but then misplace a 5 yard one.

As for the future, I think it probably is time for Gareth to step down - He's taken the team as far as he can, and can look back on a record that is better in terms of consistently reaching the late stages of tournaments that any of his predecesors.

Foden and Bellingham was exactly the same as Gerrard/Lampard/Scholes from Euro 2004. Sven wanted to play them all, so he ended up shunting Scholes to the left. Southgate wanted to play Bellingham and Foden, but should have realised there's only room for one ten. In the end, they crowded each other and weren't helped by Kane dropping deep.

Never rated Rice highly and he did have two poor games against the step up in opposition at the end. £100m, is that right?

Agree about Kane. Southgate didn't have the courage to make the right calls here. He could have rested Kane at the start of the tournament, maybe given him 20 minutes in games to keep him sharp or whatever, but in the end he just flogged him when he clearly wasn't fit. Seen that before with England strikers at major tournaments.

Walker has been one of the most improved players under Southgate's management, I've thought, and he's been good the last couple of tournaments, especially v France in 2022, but he had a bad one here and it's probably the end of the road.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely we just appoint Duty to be manager? He seems to have all the answers? Owen as an assistant and we'd just win every game 4-0?

Maybe you can just try and address what I've said that is wrong, rather than these silly asides?

Do you disagree with my criticisms of England's long ball nature, inability to look after the ball, or Southgate's reactive, not proactive, approach?

mountain man wrote:Harry Maguire, one of the England players some so called fans love to hate but invariably been excellent for England.
In fairness Guehi and Konsa were really good and Shaw showed last night what England missed when he wasn't there.

Lampard? Hmm not sure he's the manager England need. Whilst a foreign coach shouldn't be ruled out, ideally England have an English coach. Can anyone imagine say Spain or France having an English coach?

Maguire has made so many key errors during his time with England. Far from being invariably excellent. Not having to manage the limitations of Maguire was a huge boost for England at this Euros.

Yeah. Though I would say Watkins exactly covered himself in glory with his 30 mins against Spain either.

I think it's fair to say Southgate did a great job rebuilding England into a team that shows up for tournaments, the players want to be there and there's a lot more mental resilience than in the past. But as the talents evolved, and piecing it together has become much more complex, he doesn't have the ability to evolve with the team. One tournament too many. But we can't lose that resilience

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely we just appoint Duty to be manager? He seems to have all the answers? Owen as an assistant and we'd just win every game 4-0?

It's a decent call but I would be worried about Duty's workload. He's still figuring out how to win us the Ashes.

Make Moeen captain, opening bat, opening bowler, head coach and wicketkeeper.

What Southgate did right:
What Southgate did wrong:
Debatable issues:
Final Conclusion:

We all know that it is a team game. The team is greater than its parts. Team needs to be balanced, the individual parts of the team need to know almost instinctively how to function with the other parts of the team, know the other parts of the teams weaknesses and strengths and patterns of play. The team needs to have an on-field intelligence, to react and respond to the opponents, exploit its weaknesses, negate its strengths. This needs to maintained for every few seconds of the match. The match evolves, people get tired, people get injured.

Then we have the manager - squad selection etc etc

I find it baffling that anyone who criticises him more than praises is called a detractor...or a hater...or a keyboard warrior or entitled?

Decent, reasoned criticism is fine it's just far too often it's just out and out nonsense spouted because some don't like him or what he's doing. Not saying this is you, but there has been a ton of it over various sites.

England have been really poor but did get to final for 2nd time in a row. Would another manager got Eng there? Maybe but maybe not.
I've been critical of him and tactics, more so in last Euros final against Italy than this but even these finals his mistake for me was his picking of Kane. He's not been good enough and whilst it would have been a massive call to leave out capt he should have.

owen10ozzy wrote:I find it baffling that anyone who criticises him more than praises is called a detractor...or a hater...or a keyboard warrior or entitled?

Essentially from what ive read on here and other sites most people who want him gone are of the same assessment. He has done a wonderful job in rebuilding this national side, from a man management side he has bread a loyalty for country/willingness to put club football aside and brought about a togetherness not seen in a very long time.

His biggest criticism has always been that he isnt the greatest tactically & that isnt anything new but rather has been proven time & time again under his tenure. If we were talking club football & a team continued to reach finals or take league races to the last few games of the season and then came undone in the biggest games/moments at some point it would be under scrutiny. Not sure why it should be different at international level?

It's also not like we are talking about a manager who has absolutely no riches at his disposal. He has some top top quality footballers, more so now than at any other time during his stint. Yet he has failed to actually significantly change his style of football over the 7 years despite the talent pool changing. This is especially true in the games against the biggest challenges when he has always reverted to type. It is part of the reason why we have constantly fallen short be it at the final hurdle or against the biggest/best teams. You cant just dismiss that & their is an element of "easier side" when it comes to the draws he has had.

Yes we have had to win the groups and we have done that. But ultimately had we run into "stronger" teams earlier on would his record be as good - his win % against Top 10 sides would suggest absolutely not (just over 30% win rate when facing teams ranked above them & within 5 spots below)

Absolutely that.

I would understand if England were a very limited side, with a quality of the teams that were knocked out in the group stage, but England have got some of the best players in the world. I'd say this England squad were the strongest, or second strongest, on paper going into this Euros.

And the final was just dreadful. 37% possession. 489 passes from Spain. 229 from England. England's passing accuracy just below 80%; Spain's just below 90%. Pickford whacking it long 25 times, including straight from kick off, is something out of the 70s. I don't get how anyone can be happy with that or defend Southgate, when you consider the strength of England's side (which I think, man for man, is better than Spain's). Is it just because it was a final? Would those same people defending Southgate have the pitchforks out if it were a L16 or QF game? And the rampant negativity after England equalised. Awful.

We need a manager who can take things to the next level. Someone who is tactically adept and can coach well (Southgate and team evidently can't), but can also read games and make proactive changes, rather than just being a reactionary like Southgate. Otherwise, we'll get to 2026 and it'll be the same story. Fully understand that the man management aspect needs to be there as well. But you don't get prizes for being nice.

Im not even sure the man management aspect will carry Southgate much further either. The players and football looked rather joyless and laboured. Players playing a system and tactics that suck the life out of them compared to what they are used to at their clubs. Definitely time for a fresh approach.

I think you are unfair there Duty, Spain are and have been by far best team of Euros. Won every game and deservedly so.

As for possession stats, well that is one of their many strengths.

Losing 2-1 to Spain is disappointing of course but hardly a surprise. Sometimes you have to credit opposition with being better.

catchweight wrote:Im not even sure the man management aspect will carry Southgate much further either. The players and football looked rather joyless and laboured. Players playing a system and tactics that suck the life out of them compared to what they are used to at their clubs. Definitely time for a fresh approach.

That was a thought that struck me. So many of these players play for the best clubs in Europe, City, Madrid, Munich etc. How strange they must feel when their international manager instructs Pickford to launch a long ball from the kick off, or throw ten men behind the ball after an equaliser.

mountain man wrote:I think you are unfair there Duty, Spain are and have been by far best team of Euros. Won every game and deservedly so.

As for possession stats, well that is one of their many strengths.

Losing 2-1 to Spain is disappointing of course but hardly a surprise. Sometimes you have to credit opposition with being better.

But when England set up the way they do under Southgate, they're not getting the best chance of winning. England have some fabulous technical players, and are way better than being long ball merchants with 37% possession. But Southgate doesn't get that. To him, it's 1978 and the way to play football is to launch a long ball, then scrap for the seconds and thirds and maybe win a set piece or a good flick on.

Spain were better last night. But it didn't have to be like that. England could have passed the ball and moved it.

It would ideally help if rice did more than stand within 10m of John stones and pass exclusively to him. These are elite level players, they should be able to work this out on their own.

Think Rice more than anyone had a poor tournament without any mitigation. We really struggled to progress up the field and he was pretty key to that. Can count on one hand the number of positive passes he played all tournament probably.

Don't think Rice can play in a 2 going forward, either it's a 3 in midfield or play him in defense as part of a 3 with license to move ahead.

I don't think there's many setups available that would've beaten Spain in this tournament, they were just that much further ahead than everyone else honestly. Also think tactics is a pretty lazy shield for superstars playing poorly. Foden plays against low blocks every week for City but the second anyone packed the midfield here he vanished off the face of the earth. Got very little to do with Southgate.

The tactics are absolutely one of the reasons that almost every England player looked a fraction of what they look like at their clubs. If it was one or two players playing badly Southgate always had the option of actually picking somebody else. There was no shortage of attacking or creative options across the squad. The glimpses of the best football England played were when they fell behind and had to abandon the original negative gameplan.

Watching England was like watching Southgate trying to emulate how Greece won the euros with a limited squad and a few of good players. Except with a squad of top class players. They might well not beat Spain with another coach and system but I seriously doubt they only limp to the final labouring to get by the Slovakias and Slovenias of football

Serious question for the critics : Could anyone say hand on heart that the reason Spain won that game was because of the England manager's choices ? They were all over England from the start ; bags of possession - at times had to wonder if an England player was ever going to win the ball at all. Reckon England did well to come in at half time level.

Southgate has been fairly criticized for tending to be late with his substitutions , but even his critics seemed to think he made them in quite timely fashion in this game. Palmer certainly made a difference , as he has done in other matches . Maybe bringing him on about when he has was the best plan for this Euros ? I am sure he will play more from the start in the future ; but was he even on most poster's first choice team at the start of this one ? (Sure I saw a lot of cries for Gordon early on in the group stage)

For about three or four minutes after the equalizer Spain looked a bit rattled . England had a couple of attacks that came to nothing - but then they reasserted their dominance and started monopolizing possession once again. No evidence that Southgate instructed his team to take a back seat : didn't bring on defenders suddenly , did he ? They just couldn't get enough ball - which may well have had a lot to do with the fatigue factor.(And that is a point at which I do agree with Duty that failure to rotate the squad more ended up costing at the death. The only trouble with that argument is that given the narrow margins in some of the earlier matches , would a side missing a number of first choice players have made it through at all ?  We will never know).

Some one said earlier that it was the "grapeshot approach" in criticism that gets annoying , rather than reasoned opinion. I very much agree with that. But anyway everyone has a slightly different take on all this which is fair enough. I don't want to just repeat myself so will leave it here with my basic point : that Southgate has done a "good" job over eight years (even if he doesn't always do what each of us safe behind our keyboards think he should.) Maybe he could have done better ; maybe someone else might have but we cannot know that for sure. We are where we are : new manager , or keeping with this one for now , the task is to recover from this disappointment and find a way to go the final step ...am pleased to see some comments on here looking to just that...over and out for now.

Can anyone hand on heart say with the quality of players England have available that their performance against Spain was anything close to the levels they are capable of.

And leaving Spain aside, can anyone say hand on heart that their was a single game England played in this Euros where they looked anything close to the sum of their parts.

catchweight wrote:The tactics are absolutely one of the reasons that almost every England player looked a fraction of what they look like at their clubs. If it was one or two players playing badly Southgate always had the option of actually picking somebody else. There was no shortage of attacking or creative options across the squad. The glimpses of the best football England played were when they fell behind and had to abandon the original negative gameplan.

Watching England was like watching Southgate trying to emulate how Greece won the euros with a limited squad and a few of good players. Except with a squad of top class players. They might well not beat Spain with another coach and system but I seriously doubt they only limp to the final labouring to get by the Slovakias and Slovenias of football

I don't think that's true at all. Largely based on the Dutch game when Koeman left his midfield wide open, and when he shut it down, it largely closed down the game

Midfield was changed when necessary, probably a bit too much loyalty to the forward options. But they included La Liga and PL players of the year and the Bundesliga top scorer. Damned if you give them a chance to come good, damned if you don't honestly. Palmer probably should've got on, Watkins again got 30 minutes against Spain and did nothing with it.

I just think it's a very cheap shield for the players. Rice cost 100m, if he needs his manager to tell him to turn around and play it forward we're royally Frak

So a collection of players that play for some of the best clubs in the world and perform well for them just dont bother to do it for England is what you are saying?

I think a large part of it fatigue and attrition at this point. Kanes obviously crocked, pretty much everybody at this tournament looked knackered by the knockout rounds

alfie wrote:Serious question for the critics : Could anyone say hand on heart that the reason Spain won that game was because of the England manager's choices ? They were all over England from the start ; bags of possession - at times had to wonder if an England player was ever going to win the ball at all. Reckon England did well to come in at half time level.

Southgate has been fairly criticized for tending to be late with his substitutions , but even his critics seemed to think he made them in quite timely fashion in this game.  Palmer certainly made a difference , as he has done in other matches . Maybe bringing him on about when he has was the best plan for this Euros ? I am sure he will play more from the start in the future ; but was he even on most poster's first choice team at the start of this one ? (Sure I saw a lot of cries for Gordon early on in the group stage)

For about three or four minutes after the equalizer Spain looked a bit rattled . England had a couple of attacks that came to nothing - but then they reasserted their dominance and started monopolizing possession once again. No evidence that Southgate instructed his team to take a back seat : didn't bring on defenders suddenly , did he ? They just couldn't get enough ball - which may well have had a lot to do with the fatigue factor.(And that is a point at which I do agree with Duty that failure to rotate the squad more ended up costing at the death. The only trouble with that argument is that given the narrow margins in some of the earlier matches , would a side missing a number of first choice players have made it through at all ?  We will never know).

Some one said earlier that it was the "grapeshot approach" in criticism that gets annoying , rather than reasoned opinion. I very much agree with that.  But anyway everyone has a slightly different take on all this which is fair enough. I don't want to just repeat myself so will leave it here with my basic point : that Southgate has done a "good" job over eight years (even if he doesn't always do what each of us safe behind our keyboards think he should.) Maybe he could have done better ; maybe someone else might have but we cannot know that for sure. We are where we are : new manager , or keeping with this one for now , the task is to recover from this disappointment and find a way to go the final step ...am pleased to see some comments on here looking to just that...over and out for now.

And why were they all over England from the start, with bags of possession? Because:

1) England kicked the ball long to a man who couldn't jump, right from kick off. If you want to have a chance of retaining the ball, you keep it on the floor and pass it to a teammate. Not go for a hit and hope.
2) England had no press, all tournament. This is clearly a coaching issue. I said before the game how patient Spain could be because we knew how woeful England's press was in the previous six games, which begs the question of what Southgate and his coaching staff were doing in the build up to the Euros, and between the games themselves.

Southgate's initial substitutions were fine, even if they were reactionary, it was what came after. England were 1-1 and Southgate had ordered the retreat, ten behind the ball. *But*, critically, and just like v Slovakia for 15 minutes, he didn't make the subsequent substitutions to support this ultra defensive mentality. So England were playing backs to the wall with four attacking midfielders on the pitch. Too slow again. I saw the Spanish winner coming, as I'm sure many others did, but Southgate didn't.

There were plenty of other games, of course, where Southgate didn't use his bench correctly. Gordon played, I think, one minute all tournament which is a disgrace. Palmer probably deserved to start after the initial games.

Not sure what you mean about England monopolising possession after the goal. England had a good 2-3 minutes after the goal, then there was that throw in near the Spain box which ended up back to Pickford, who smashed it long and England barely got a kick for about 10 minutes until the goal and it was ten men behind the ball.

You can't know whether a team will win or not. But it's up to a manager to set up his team with the best chance of winning and Southgate didn't do that. England didn't have enough possession because they didn't look after it. Southgate seemed to favour a quick counter attacking style...while starting Kane.

I'd also like to see England go the final step, which is why I'm very critical, and that's very unlikely to happen while we have a manager who relies on moments and has delivered two shocking performances in finals. I don't think Southgate actually believes in the strengths of his players, that's the most damning thing.

Fatigue I can accept to a degree. International managers having limited time to spend with their players I can accept as well as a factor. But Southgate clearly sets up his teams in a manner that squanders the potential they have. He has one of the best squad of international footballers available to him and he settles for the kind of football you would expect a smaller nation to adopt trying to contain a better one. Emphasising giving little away and being hard to beat instead. Relying on moments to win games. England werent alone on that front in this Euros where quite a few talented squads failed to ignite. But I dont think other teams failings or past England teams failings should be relevent to assessing how England performed game to game. It was pretty poor stuff with what Southgate had at his disposal. Instead of looking at past england team or other nations that misfiered why not look at the benchmark Spain themselves. De la Fuente has been in the job a lot less longer than Southgate and has them playing football miles beyond the ambitions of what Southgate can produce.

Duty281 wrote:

alfie wrote:Serious question for the critics : Could anyone say hand on heart that the reason Spain won that game was because of the England manager's choices ? They were all over England from the start ; bags of possession - at times had to wonder if an England player was ever going to win the ball at all. Reckon England did well to come in at half time level.

Southgate has been fairly criticized for tending to be late with his substitutions , but even his critics seemed to think he made them in quite timely fashion in this game.  Palmer certainly made a difference , as he has done in other matches . Maybe bringing him on about when he has was the best plan for this Euros ? I am sure he will play more from the start in the future ; but was he even on most poster's first choice team at the start of this one ? (Sure I saw a lot of cries for Gordon early on in the group stage)

For about three or four minutes after the equalizer Spain looked a bit rattled . England had a couple of attacks that came to nothing - but then they reasserted their dominance and started monopolizing possession once again. No evidence that Southgate instructed his team to take a back seat : didn't bring on defenders suddenly , did he ? They just couldn't get enough ball - which may well have had a lot to do with the fatigue factor.(And that is a point at which I do agree with Duty that failure to rotate the squad more ended up costing at the death. The only trouble with that argument is that given the narrow margins in some of the earlier matches , would a side missing a number of first choice players have made it through at all ?  We will never know).

Some one said earlier that it was the "grapeshot approach" in criticism that gets annoying , rather than reasoned opinion. I very much agree with that.  But anyway everyone has a slightly different take on all this which is fair enough. I don't want to just repeat myself so will leave it here with my basic point : that Southgate has done a "good" job over eight years (even if he doesn't always do what each of us safe behind our keyboards think he should.) Maybe he could have done better ; maybe someone else might have but we cannot know that for sure. We are where we are : new manager , or keeping with this one for now , the task is to recover from this disappointment and find a way to go the final step ...am pleased to see some comments on here looking to just that...over and out for now.

And why were they all over England from the start, with bags of possession? Because:

1) England kicked the ball long to a man who couldn't jump, right from kick off. If you want to have a chance of retaining the ball, you keep it on the floor and pass it to a teammate. Not go for a hit and hope.
2) England had no press, all tournament. This is clearly a coaching issue. I said before the game how patient Spain could be because we knew how woeful England's press was in the previous six games, which begs the question of what Southgate and his coaching staff were doing in the build up to the Euros, and between the games themselves.

Southgate's initial substitutions were fine, even if they were reactionary, it was what came after. England were 1-1 and Southgate had ordered the retreat, ten behind the ball. *But*, critically, and just like v Slovakia for 15 minutes, he didn't make the subsequent substitutions to support this ultra defensive mentality. So England were playing backs to the wall with four attacking midfielders on the pitch. Too slow again. I saw the Spanish winner coming, as I'm sure many others did, but Southgate didn't.

There were plenty of other games, of course, where Southgate didn't use his bench correctly. Gordon played, I think, one minute all tournament which is a disgrace. Palmer probably deserved to start after the initial games.

Not sure what you mean about England monopolising possession after the goal. England had a good 2-3 minutes after the goal, then there was that throw in near the Spain box which ended up back to Pickford, who smashed it long and England barely got a kick for about 10 minutes until the goal and it was ten men behind the ball.

You can't know whether a team will win or not. But it's up to a manager to set up his team with the best chance of winning and Southgate didn't do that. England didn't have enough possession because they didn't look after it. Southgate seemed to favour a quick counter attacking style...while starting Kane.

I'd also like to see England go the final step, which is why I'm very critical, and that's very unlikely to happen while we have a manager who relies on moments and has delivered two shocking performances in finals. I don't think Southgate actually believes in the strengths of his players, that's the most damning thing.

Haha ... You misread me there , Duty - perhaps was unclear. I meant Spain once again monopolized possession after that three minutes or so. Which I think was more player failings than manager's instructions...anyway we will never agree on a host of issues around this so won't bother to argue further. If I can resist

catchweight wrote:Fatigue I can accept to a degree. International managers having limited time to spend with their players I can accept as well as a factor. But Southgate clearly sets up his teams in a manner that squanders the potential they have. He has one of the best squad of international footballers available to him and he settles for the kind of football you would expect a smaller nation to adopt trying to contain a better one. Emphasising giving little away and being hard to beat instead. Relying on moments to win games. England werent alone on that front in this Euros where quite a few talented squads failed to ignite. But I dont think other teams failings or past England teams failings should be relevent to assessing how England performed game to game. It was pretty poor stuff with what Southgate had at his disposal. Instead of looking at past england team or other nations that misfiered why not look at the benchmark Spain themselves. De la Fuente has been in the job a lot less longer than Southgate and has them playing football miles beyond the ambitions of what Southgate can produce.

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Fatigue isn't an issue, or every team would use that excuse. There is no excuse to be unfit. The life of a professional footballer is not very arduous.

I think most other major nations at the tournament failing to get going in a similar way to England is indicative of a wider issue no?

Footballers have been complaining of burnout for quite a while to be fair. The various governing bodies keep expanding tournaments and adding new ones though. Join us for the club world championship now featuring 64 teams and starting in July next year taking place in San Marino

(just kidding it's actually only 31 teams + Chelsea)

GSC wrote:I think most other major nations at the tournament failing to get going in a similar way to England is indicative of a wider issue no?

No, it was just a boring tournament. The last World Cup final was one of the best matches in n any tournament for decades.
There are far better athletes who have a much harder life than footballers in training and in their discipline on the field of play who manage without blaming exhaustion or a "long season"

Not as if it was even that hot, and there's plenty substitutes. Hardly taxing running 10km twice a week and touching the ball 20 times a match is it?

The world cup final also took place in December midseason

super_realist wrote:

GSC wrote:I think most other major nations at the tournament failing to get going in a similar way to England is indicative of a wider issue no?

No, it was just a boring tournament. The last World Cup final was one of the best matches in n any tournament for decades.
There are far better athletes who have a much harder life than footballers in training and in their discipline on the field of play who manage without blaming exhaustion or a "long season"

Not as if it was even that hot, and there's plenty substitutes. Hardly taxing running 10km twice a week and touching the ball 20 times a match is it?

For the first 80 minutes, it really wasn't.

If England were playing the kind of football most of these guys play week to week and were as flat as they have been I could accept the fatigue argument more.

But the final was night and day and much more clearly a contrast of football style, ambition and ideology. If there is anything much between the squads in terms of pure football ability it isnt much. They are miles apart in terms of how they actually try to play though.

With the talent England have available if they stick with Southgate they will (probably) beat the teams that they expect to beat anyway and will (probably) lose to the business end teams when they play them. Whether thats avoiding them until the final or meeting them in the quarter final.

catchweight wrote:Fatigue I can accept to a degree. International managers having limited time to spend with their players I can accept as well as a factor. But Southgate clearly sets up his teams in a manner that squanders the potential they have. He has one of the best squad of international footballers available to him and he settles for the kind of football you would expect a smaller nation to adopt trying to contain a better one. Emphasising giving little away and being hard to beat instead. Relying on moments to win games. England werent alone on that front in this Euros where quite a few talented squads failed to ignite. But I dont think other teams failings or past England teams failings should be relevent to assessing how England performed game to game. It was pretty poor stuff with what Southgate had at his disposal. Instead of looking at past england team or other nations that misfiered why not look at the benchmark Spain themselves. De la Fuente has been in the job a lot less longer than Southgate and has them playing football miles beyond the ambitions of what Southgate can produce.

If he were in charge of England, England would be champions now.

GSC wrote:The world cup final also took place in December midseason

Fair point, but most tournaments aren't and they're usually better than this one was.
Perhaps it was the lack of urgency in group stages as only the bottom four and a few third place teams missed out which set the tone for the rest of the tournament.

Think the tournament itself has definitely been devalued by the expansion and the strange group system from a footballing perspective. Its strength used to be the concentration of quality teams.

Obviously they feel expanding it to more countries allows greater interest and enthusiasm across the continent. It makes for a rather lacklustre format though.

Duty281 wrote:

catchweight wrote:Fatigue I can accept to a degree. International managers having limited time to spend with their players I can accept as well as a factor. But Southgate clearly sets up his teams in a manner that squanders the potential they have. He has one of the best squad of international footballers available to him and he settles for the kind of football you would expect a smaller nation to adopt trying to contain a better one. Emphasising giving little away and being hard to beat instead. Relying on moments to win games. England werent alone on that front in this Euros where quite a few talented squads failed to ignite. But I dont think other teams failings or past England teams failings should be relevent to assessing how England performed game to game. It was pretty poor stuff with what Southgate had at his disposal. Instead of looking at past england team or other nations that misfiered why not look at the benchmark Spain themselves. De la Fuente has been in the job a lot less longer than Southgate and has them playing football miles beyond the ambitions of what Southgate can produce.

If he were in charge of England, England would be champions now.

You cannot say that though. Maybe they would or maybe not got out of group. Impossible to know.

catchweight wrote:Think the tournament itself has definitely been devalued by the expansion and the strange group system from a footballing perspective. Its strength used to be the concentration of quality teams.

Obviously they feel expanding it to more countries allows greater interest and enthusiasm across the continent. It makes for a rather lacklustre format though.

Won't be long until all the crap from Europe like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, Latvia, San Marino, Finland etc just all get in and we have 8 groups of 7 or whatever with top 6 going through.

Football will eat itself eventually trying to maximise revenue like this as the tournaments are just getting worse.
At least they didn't have the absolutely pointless 3rd/4th place match.

Tbf a lot of the group games were class. Knockout games have been pretty crap bar Austria Turkey

The old Euro tournaments felt like serious business from the get go as the groups were usually unforgiving and hard to get out of. Even the group games had the feel of jeopardy and knock out football.

Now it feels like a weeks worth of matches as a glorified weeding out process until the tournament starts properly. By which stage theres been an exhaustion of pointless feeling matches