UEFA Euro 2024

First topic message reminder :

It's coming up. Who are you supporting? Who do you think will win? Who gets the golden boot?

How you feeling for your teams chances? I'm not massively into international footy but a tournament is always a laugh.

I have France winning the lot. Maybeee Kane for golden boot. Yeah that'll do. I'll be supporting The Netherlands I reckon.

Olmo could have buried England there, just fluffed the finish.

Oh look....Kyle Walker again playing as a CB and Williams left all alone.

So for all the talk about his man-management...and for those who said we who dare criticise Southgate are haters etc...this is where he earns his crust. Finals are great....but at some point you have to actually get the team to go out and win one....that task becomes harder when you go behind.

Stones on a booking

Early signs after going behind are that this has the makings of England getting turned over now.

Spain all over England. Could be two or three by now.

Jesus christ!!!! Seriously....1-0 down and we are sat on our own 10 yard box!

Bellingham got the ball then and our whole team are just stood static! Its like we are happy to see if we can lose only 1-0!

Foden in a great crossing position. Kane nowhere near. How frustrating.

Kane's now off, should never have started, it was blindingly obvious, and on comes Watkins. Maybe he can force Spain a little deeper?

Pickford now with a brilliant save to keep England in the game.

There's just huge differences between these teams. Spain move it fluidly and on the floor. England smash it long and hope for the best.

Isnt it amazing what happens when your striker isnt playing in the same space that Bellingham/Foden want to work in & you play with the aim of giving the opposition something to think about rather than only worrying about them.....

Or wait....maybe Southgate had a master plan to do this but knows it only works if you wait until 2/3 of a way into a game & are 1-0 down ‍�

Feck me, what a finish. England finally break quick and make it count.

Cucurella's error. Hares out of position and doesn't win it. Leaves Spain stretched and scrambling. But a stunning finish from Palmer to rescue England.

Back on.

Fantastic........

Give the Spanish something to think about & look what happens you take advantage of their weaknesses which are at the back!

Now do not for the love of god sit back! Go and try win this bloody game. I dont care if we lose 4-1 in the process.....we can win this but we have to go for it!

That's frustrating though. Throw in near the Spain box. Ends up back to Pickford who smashes it long back to Spain.

And literally within the blink of an eye we are sat men behind the ball giving Spain time on the ball again....

Pickford again with a smart save.

Said if England were going to win they'd need Pickford at his best and to be lethal with their own chances. One more chance, please?

England need a ball winner in midfield. Good subs so far from Southgate, but need more.

England were bouncing for a little while after the goal. Went downhill after that throw in. Just hanging on for ET at the moment.

Lets just keep giving them the ball and all the space in the world....they wont score......"oh wait they did last time we tried this"...well it cant possibly happen again.

And there's the winner. Deserved for Spain.

Southgate again too slow to react to the game in front of him. I could see it, you could see it, Southgate was dawdling.

Yep....was always going to happen!

No one come on here telling me that the mentality of sitting behind the ball doesnt come from the manager. We have done it in every game against big opposition in yhe Southgate era. We get back on level par....or on the odd occassion actually go ahead. And then peg 10 men behind the ball & hope for the best.

10 minute spell prior to the goal where we did everything that can trouble Spain....scored the equaliser & then just stopped doing it all. Thats tacticts & manager instructions simple as that.

England's first good setpiece for six years, ends with an Olmo goalline clearance.

Looks like Kane's trophy curse will continue. I bet that must baffle him and keep him awake at night. Extraordinary player. Extraordinarily cursed.

Well done to Spain. Richly deserved, not just for tonight, but over the whole competition they were the best team.

Best team on the night and in the tournament won, can't argue with that.

Another few years of hurt tacked on.

Can't complain about that . Spain were the class of the tournament ; and the better team tonight.

The big take-away from this tournament. England have match winners. England have players who have no fear. England have creative players.

What they dont have is a manager who believes he has the players at his disposal to actually set up a team to worry the opposition. Like his subs...he is reactive not proactive. The evidence shows...yes it will get you to the latter stages/finals.....what it wont do is win you tournaments.

The Euro finals against Italy was there for the winning...we failed to grasp it. This time around having got ourselves back in the game we just handed back the initiative.

Southgate has done a phenonemal job in getting pride back in the badge. Done a fantastic job in uniting players when they link up for country. Applaud him massively for that...

But he leaves very much with a case of what could have been.

Rio Ferdinand just summed it up perfectly!

Don't think England "handed back the initiative" . Spain had the legs and the bulk of possession and in the end it told. Game of inches , of course : that second Spanish goal was a bent knee away from being offside - and England were so close to a headed goal at the end.

But honestly , Spain could have felt robbed if they'd not won that. Hope for the future for England looking at the new players coming through : hope they can keep getting to the end of these tournaments and surely one day they will go the extra yard...

I'll say it again - Southgate needs to go. This is on him. England have wasted three tournaments where they've had genuine chance of success on this woeful manager.

He's a good man manager, no doubt. But as a coach and a tactician, he falls far short of this level. His in game management is horrific. And he's continually made poor selections in this tournament. Why on earth was Kane starting, for instance?

England's tactics in this final, and the last Euros final, were horrendous. Playing like a plucky Championship side against Man City in the FA Cup, except England are blessed with tremendous footballers. How many times did Pickford hoof it long tonight, to a man who can't jump? It was like a bad trip back to the 70s. I was expecting to see Brian Moore in the studio at FT.

I've been told that Southgate knows how to win in tournament football. No, he doesn't, otherwise England might have won a tournament now. He's had tremendous moments of luck. The draw again favouring England in this competition. England were probably the 3rd/4th best team at this tournament. The real final was Spain v Germany. If England had been in the top half at this Euros, or the last, no way do England make a final. That's what we've been used to, in England's history. Previous England managers have had a knack of running into the bigger teams early, Southgate hasn't. But that's more luck than judgement!

It was just a depressing watch tonight. Because England have so many gifted players, but they're reduced to being led by a Championship manager who has little clue how to get the best out of them. How much good football did England conjure up at this tournament? One half v the Dutch, 20 mins v Denmark, 25 v Serbia? Just awful. This was such a golden chance for England, thrown away because they're led by Southgate who made error after error after error.

37% possession? Jesus. 35% according to the BBC.

He needed to be gone after the last Euros, when it was painfully apparent that he was never going to get the best out of this lot, it didn't happen. He definitely needs to go now, because there's no way England can waste another World Cup with this talented group. Potter's available, isn't he? Fantastic tactician and coach. Pay him what he wants and get him in.

alfie wrote:Don't think England "handed back the initiative" .  Spain had the legs and the bulk of possession and in the end it told. Game of inches , of course : that second Spanish goal was a bent knee away from being offside - and England were so close to a headed goal at the end.

But honestly , Spain could have felt robbed if they'd not won that.  Hope for the future for England looking at the new players coming through : hope they can keep getting to the end of these tournaments and surely one day they will go the extra yard...

I'm not sure you can call it anything else....unless its sheer coincidence that tired legs always come right after we get back into a game or go ahead?! Its been the same thing throughout his tenure never mind just this tournament.

alfie wrote:Don't think England "handed back the initiative" .  Spain had the legs and the bulk of possession and in the end it told. Game of inches , of course : that second Spanish goal was a bent knee away from being offside - and England were so close to a headed goal at the end.

But honestly , Spain could have felt robbed if they'd not won that.  Hope for the future for England looking at the new players coming through : hope they can keep getting to the end of these tournaments and surely one day they will go the extra yard...

Of course Spain had the legs. They looked after the ball and treated it as a cherished possession. England just punted the thing high in the air and hoped that the man who couldn't jump would do something.

Spain's manager also used his bench well through the tournament, so going into this one their most used outfield player had played 483 minutes, while England had seven outfield players who had got through 500+ minutes.

Absolutely baffles me how Southgate used Kane in this tournament. Obviously carrying an injury, if Southgate rested Kane at the start, then he may have been fit for the latter stages. Instead, Southgate puts Kane through the full 90 v Serbia, 70 minutes v Denmark, the full 90 v Slovenia, 105 v Slovakia, 109 v Switzerland, and 81 v the Dutch.

So by the time of the final, Kane is an absolute wreck who can barely control the ball. But Southgate still starts him!

Jesus....thats a stat for you....

In 181 minutes across Euro 2020 & 24 finals...Harry Kane had just 1 shot on goal, 1 touch in the oppositions box and 58 touches of the ball ‍�

So you knew it had been physically demanding on Kane...knew he wasnt where he or you would want him to be & to boot admit that Watkins would press in a way we needed. Yet...lets start Kane?!

England manager Gareth Southgate, speaking to BBC One: "We've competed until the very end of the final. I think today we didn't keep possession of the ball quite well enough. We defended well but when you win the ball back you need to get out of that pressure. And we weren't able to do that. That meant they had more control of the game and that can wear you down a bit.

"That said we got the equaliser and then it was wide open. A big chance at the end to equalise so as always it is fine margins. I do think they were the best team in the tournament."



Don't think we kept possession well? Hmm, 35% possession does seem to indicate that, maybe it's because of smashing long balls all the time to a passenger? Maybe keep it on the floor?

Defended well? They had 16 shots and Pickford was needed to stop Spain running away with it.

Wide open after the equaliser? Funny, I could have sworn England just sat back and were hanging on for ET. Only one non attacking midfielder on the pitch at that time, too, leaving a lack of balance, but no changes.

Fine margins? Spain absolutely dominated.

Hurry up and go. Three tournaments wasted, let's not make it a fourth.

Also, every KO game England have lost since 1968 has been by a margin of one goal or on penalties, with the exception of the 2010 loss. That's quite something. I think it's 15 losses from 16 now have been by one goal or on penalties.

Two finals in a row, a first final on foreign soil, a record in KOs that puts him in uncharted territory.

Whilst the lack of a fit Harry Kane was damaging, the biggest problem was the same as against Italy: we have no midfield control on the ball. We don’t have a tempo setter, a passer between the lines. Mainoo is a lovely player, but he’s not really that type. Rice is a defender and a fantastic defensive holder, but not got any craft on the ball.

There is no option for England there, yet. Wharton is the man they have to hope becomes it. All the guff about the manager will continue, but fundamentally, there is just little chance of being the best team without that.

I don’t really like the options out there to replace him, so I’m not desperate to change. I think it might be time, but I worry that it goes to Potter, and I’m not sure Potter will get the time with the players he needs to drill his style, whilst he’s never really proven himself a winner.

You can have prime Pirlo and Xavi in midfield. It makes no difference when the tactic is for Pickford to smash it long ball. Something that started from KO and something that was apparently done 25 times during the game. Couple that with the complete lack of press, another issue throughout the tournament. Mainoo's a great tempo setter anyway, though more potential than realised ability at this point. Southgate had a chance to use Wharton at this tournament, but chose not to.

Potter's never really proven himself a winner...and Southgate has? Potter's superb. Tactically and coaching wise he's in a different league to Southgate. My only concern with Potter is he likes to have a wide array of different systems, which he would need to simplify for the shortened time he would have with players at international level. But certainly worth a go, because it's been a tournament of dirge from Southgate, save for 45 minutes + Watkins' finish v the Dutch.

Another late England wondergoal - this time from Cole Palmer.  But Spain win it with a near offside  goal.   An English makeshift defence.  Some ageing English mainstays.  Maybe Harry Kane needs to be moved on.  English side in transition but showing a lot of promise.   Results wise Gareth Southgate has been brilliant - lost in a penalty shoot out in the last Euros.  Lost to late near offside goal in this Euros.   I don't necessarily buy into the idea that England have the best squad of players - how do we take out personal bias from the assessment?

People say a National Coach requires a completely different set of skills to a League Coach. Rather than a complete change in manager maybe there could be some changes in the management team - the management support around Gareth Southgoat.

Justice done. England would have been the most boring team to ever win it had they prevailed.
Ultimately a pretty boring tournament with not much in the way of stand outs or anything memorable which defined it as a good tournament. Too cagey, no risk taking.

super_realist wrote:Justice done. England would have been the most boring team to ever win it had they prevailed.
Ultimately a pretty boring tournament with not much in the way of stand outs or anything memorable which defined it as a good tournament. Too cagey, no risk taking.

England had moments of magic: Bellingham overhead kick, Saka goal, Ollie Watkin's goal, Cole Palmer goal. Great penalties. Apart from those moments of magic there was a lot of defending, some good saves and not much else to remember.

Predictably enough the Southgate haters have wasted no time in blaming the manager for this loss...despite acknowledging that Spain had already earned massive favouritism by their previous performances . Wouldn't expect anything else , sadly.

You will probably get your way . FA would like Southgate to stay on ; players too. But I suspect he might have had enough after 8 years and another final disappointment - and the ingratitude of many so called fans probably won't have exactly helped.

Not saying the man should be beyond criticism. (Though I reserve the right to give the opinions of random keyboard warriors a little less credibility than they seem to feel entitled to). But a lot of the stuff thrown at him is frankly rubbish. Anyone remember how things were when he took over ? It is beyond dispute that he has given England the most consistent level of success in major tournaments in decades - though his detractors just say that this is despite his work rather than because of it...easy to say : impossible to prove.

"Easy draws" "lucky" "best group of players ever" "would have won with a better manager"  ... all just supposition. Only facts are that in 8 years he's led them to 2 finals , 1 semi and one QF. And in the entire previous history of England at major championships (some 31 tournaments) we've seen 1 win , 3 SFs and 9 QFs...and if you look at just "post-Ramsey" it is even less by removing the win , 1 SF and 3 QFs ! If that doesn't make him the most successful manager in fifty years I wonder what metric his critics would accept ?

Don't get me wrong : if a new manager comes in and helps this squad to take the final step up I will be first to applaud ... and I absolutely hope he will. I also won't say "shoot him" if they go out early at the next WC ! But if this was Southgate's swansong I am giving him a round of applause on the way out for what he has done : and hope we aren't all singing along with Joni Mitchell in a year or two "don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" ...

Spain were favourites *because* Southgate is manager. Man for man, I think England's squad is better than Spain's. But England were playing nowhere near their potential because of Southgate and his numerous errors.

What stuff thrown at Southgate is rubbish?

Remember how things were when he took over? Yes, England had a far weaker squad at Euro 2016 than they do now, so unsurprising results weren't as good. What success? England are trophyless.

Easy draws. Do you think Spain or England had an easier run to the final? Best group of players ever? Well, best overall squad this century, I'd say.

I said similar after the Italy final three years ago. Some people think this is the limit of this talented England group. That the best we can hope for as England fans v a top nation is 35% possession, a succession of long balls, barely any chances created, sitting deep, and praying for penalties. If that's your view, you're probably happy with Southgate and that's fine.

But some England fans, including myself, think England can be a lot better than this. And a team that has extraordinary talents like England should be looking to play front foot football against Spain, win the possession battle and create more.

It was just so frustrating to watch again last night. When England were a goal down, there was a few minutes where they started to play attacking football, out of compulsion more than anything, and they hurt Spain for a little while, culminating in Palmer's finish. England had the momentum for the first time and what happened? Oh, that's right, Southgate ordered the retreat, and the air went out of England. What was bizarre was, just like the Slovakia game for 15 minutes after England took the lead in that one, Southgate didn't make any changes to back the retreat. So England were playing ultra defensive with four attacking midfielders on the pitch, and just Rice as a defensive midfielder. Horrendously unbalanced and Spain got the winner.

But that's Southgate. He doesn't see the game in front of him, never has. It's why he's well short of the elite level. England got this far in spite of Southgate, not because of him. Fantastic individual moments got England this far, none more so than Bellingham's exquisite overhead kick, but you can also add in Saka and Watkins' goals.

I absolutely love this England squad. It's outrageously talented. Foden, Bellingham, Saka and Kane in the starting XI, but you can throw on Toney, Gordon, Watkins, Palmer and Trent off the bench? Fantastic. But it's all such a chore under Southgate, who has no idea how to get the best from this lot.

I think Southgate's going to stay, but I hope I'm wrong. England have a genuine chance at the next World Cup, but only if they get a manager who is a good tactician, coach and can be proactive to the game happening in front of him.

You must be joking. Southgate has been awful tactically. If this tournament hasnt confirmed it, nothing will. Look beyond the results and at the actual tactics, selection and performances. Its obvious this England team are going further in tournaments in spite of Southgate rather than because of him. Relying on top class individuals to produce moments of quality to counteract Southgates negative set ups. The general theme has been England start off badly and either go behind, in which case Southgate is forced to abandon his negative style and England are able to play a bit or 2. they struggle to break teams down under a suffocating Southgate set up. There are red flags everywhere that a soft draw, a bit of good fortune and some individual moments of brilliance has papered over. Southgate has rarely beaten a top team at a major tournament that England would not have been expected to beat. And he has laboured past quite a few ordinary ones.

Hes a nice man, he restored pride the badge and gave the team a much needed reset and reconnected with the fans. But even that is starting to fray now as his style of football is clearly hindering a team brimming with quality and potential. They might not win a major tournament with another coach but they would give themselves a heck of a better shot with a squad of players that all but a handful of countries would be envious of.

Tough one to take. Maybe not as bad as 2021 but still so near yet so far again.

First of all congrats to Spain. They were favourites because they were the outstanding international team since their 2008-12 vintage. They beat both of the finalists from the last Euros, they beat the world cup finalists, they beat the hosts. we can be disappointed while acknowledging the standard of opposition here.

They also had to be blunt, a team of players that looked fresher and in better form than most of the rest of the field. In truth regardless of the manager, Kane, Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Saka and Walker all had fairly underwhelming tournaments. We can talk systems, tactics etc but there isnt a massive amount the manager can do if the key players just aren't going to turn up.

Onto the topic saved in everyone's drafts for the last month...

In truth probably one tournament too many for Gareth. It's looked fairly muddled at times and he hasn't really been able to find many answers to the problems posed. Taking Shaw as the only LB was a mess that was fortunate not to derail England's tournament earlier. Felt Wharton was probably unfortunate not to get a half or so when England were struggling in the group stages and looking for answers. Some of the big names bullet proof despite some poor performances. I suspect he will opt to move on, but these are all problems the new manager will have top of his in tray. Not least that Foden has yet to approach anything like his club form in international tournaments for England. Bellingham should be the focal point of the England team now, and Foden may have to be the fall guy to make that happen.

But I'm also not having the same nonsense about how he's held England back and basically just lucky. A club manager would've taken England further etc. how quickly we (and various England players from those generations sat in studios) forget that Englands issue was rarely talent as much as a self pitying mindset. PL stars that looked like they played England games under Jupiter gravity. Gareth released that and to pretend that was a simple thing to do defies what actually happened under some of the biggest names in world football. It's going to be critical that the off field work is maintained

Spain were better side and can't really complain they won.

Could England got the win? Possibly, that would have required Kane to have been dropped as he's been a passenger really all tournament and yesterday did literally nothing.

My first thoughts today were many thanks Gareth but time up but if he does make the bold decision and drop Kane and start likes of Watkins from the off and bring on Palmer sooner etc then yes he could still be the coach to bring success.
Whether he would do that is another matter.

Luke Shaw showed how much he was missed, he was excellent despite very little football.

And if it is an end, 4 tournaments, 2 finals and the floor being a quarterfinal going toe to toe with France? The bar has been raised immeasurably

Agree, Spain best team of the tournament.

England have the players to play a far more attacking, entertaining style...yet still keep a solid defensive foundation.

We also barely saw players like Gordon, Eze

I have an issue with Saka...he doesnt go to the line enough. Gets the ball alot but it usually results in a back pass to another player. Palmer on the other hand...always looking forward.

I also think the next manager has to make a decision...Bellingham OR Foden...

GSC wrote:Tough one to take. Maybe not as bad as 2021 but still so near yet so far again.

First of all congrats to Spain. They were favourites because they were the outstanding international team since their 2008-12 vintage. They beat both of the finalists from the last Euros, they beat the world cup finalists, they beat the hosts. we can be disappointed while acknowledging the standard of opposition here.

They also had to be blunt, a team of players that looked fresher and in better form than most of the rest of the field. In truth regardless of the manager, Kane, Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Saka and Walker all had fairly underwhelming tournaments. We can talk systems, tactics etc but there isnt a massive amount the manager can do if the key players just aren't going to turn up.

Onto the topic saved in everyone's drafts for the last month...

In truth probably one tournament too many for Gareth. It's looked fairly muddled at times and he hasn't really been able to find many answers to the problems posed. Taking Shaw as the only LB was a mess that was fortunate not to derail England's tournament earlier. Felt Wharton was probably unfortunate not to get a half or so when England were struggling  in the group stages and looking for answers. Some of the big names bullet proof despite some poor performances. I suspect he will opt to move on, but these are all problems the new manager will have top of his in tray. Not least that Foden has yet to approach anything like his club form in international tournaments for England. Bellingham should be the focal point of the England team now, and Foden may have to be the fall guy to make that happen.

But I'm also not having the same nonsense about how he's held England back and basically just lucky. A club manager would've taken England further etc. how quickly we (and various England players from those generations sat in studios) forget that Englands issue was rarely talent as much as a self pitying mindset. PL stars that looked like they played England games under Jupiter gravity. Gareth released that and to pretend that was a simple thing to do defies what actually happened under some of the biggest names in world football. It's going to be critical that the off field work is maintained

His England team of players look every bit a shadow of themselves as any England team in the past. Guys who light up the premiership or Champions league week in week out reduced to playing the kind of tactics a Slovenia would set up with.

At this one yeah, felt a tournament too far as I said. But also looked a lot like fatigue and attrition had laid into a lot of the players. And also not really alone in that, that was pretty much all the big names bar Spain. Managing workload is also gonna be a big thing

GSC wrote:Tough one to take. Maybe not as bad as 2021 but still so near yet so far again.

First of all congrats to Spain. They were favourites because they were the outstanding international team since their 2008-12 vintage. They beat both of the finalists from the last Euros, they beat the world cup finalists, they beat the hosts. we can be disappointed while acknowledging the standard of opposition here.

They also had to be blunt, a team of players that looked fresher and in better form than most of the rest of the field. In truth regardless of the manager, Kane, Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Saka and Walker all had fairly underwhelming tournaments. We can talk systems, tactics etc but there isnt a massive amount the manager can do if the key players just aren't going to turn up.

...

I'd take Saka off that list, as, while he wasn't as good as he can be, he had a decent tournament overall. I think the lack of a centre forward attacking the near post made him reluctant to take the ball outside and look to pull it back.

Foden and Bellingham had a few moments, but if these are the EPL and La Liga players of the year, they should be doing MUCH more. Does trying to play them together result in a square peg in around hole somewhere? Palmer outshone both as a creative midfielder / #10

Rice looks half the player for England that he is for Arsenal. Sloppy loses of possession in our half and not offering as much going forward as for his club.

Kane looked knackered from the start. If he wasn't Captain, surely he'd have been dropped.

Ans I've never been a fan of Walker. Decent defender, but relies on his pace to recover being out of position, and is still too careless with the ball - can hit a decent 50 yard crossfield pass but then misplace a 5 yard one.

As for the future, I think it probably is time for Gareth to step down - He's taken the team as far as he can, and can look back on a record that is better in terms of consistently reaching the late stages of tournaments that any of his predecesors.

I thought Saka was good in spurts but overall I think he went missing for large parts of games tbh. Certainly another who didn't reach his usual levels if better than the rest I agree. Would've liked to have seen him go at Cucurella when he had moments.

Should be it for Walker now I agree. Find a way to get Trent in

Surely we just appoint Duty to be manager? He seems to have all the answers? Owen as an assistant and we'd just win every game 4-0?

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Two finals in a row, a first final on foreign soil, a record in KOs that puts him in uncharted territory.

Whilst the lack of a fit Harry Kane was damaging, the biggest problem was the same as against Italy: we have no midfield control on the ball. We don’t have a tempo setter, a passer between the lines. Mainoo is a lovely player, but he’s not really that type. Rice is a defender and a fantastic defensive holder, but not got any craft on the ball.

There is no option for England there, yet. Wharton is the man they have to hope becomes it. All the guff about the manager will continue, but fundamentally, there is just little chance of being the best team without that.

I don’t really like the options out there to replace him, so I’m not desperate to change. I think it might be time, but I worry that it goes to Potter, and I’m not sure Potter will get the time with the players he needs to drill his style, whilst he’s never really proven himself a winner.

Couldn't have worded it much better myself - also very concerned about Potter's ability to manage top top players, by pretty much most accounts he didn't win over the changing room at any point at Chelsea, the one time he's actually managed players the level of which he'd be going in to manage with England.

If they are to make a change, should push the boat out for a Klopp or just hire in house again with Carsley who's done good work with the 21s.