England's winter of cricket 2024/25

First topic message reminder :

The squad for the tour of Pakistan has just been announced...Stokes and Crawley are back, with Dan Lawrence dropped. There are also recalls for Rehan Ahmed and Jack Leach, with Brydon Carse getting a tour also.

Full squad (likely XI then others);

Zak Crawley
Ben Duckett
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Harry Brook
Ben Stokes
Jamie Smith (wk)
Gus Atkinson
Olly Stone
Jack Leach
Shoaib Bashir

Reserves:
Jordan Cox
Brydon Carse
Rehan Ahmed
Chris Woakes
Josh Hull
Matthew Potts

Will MacPherson noting they see Tom Hartley as more suited for the true turning wickets of SL/India/Bangladesh, hence his omission. Tests likely to be played at Rawalpindi, Multan, Rawalpindi. (Two Pindi tests...fun).

Extra seamers suggest Stokes might not be fit to bowl?

Decent start by Woakes Now we will see if Pakistan have anything left or are just going to roll over...

GSC wrote:And gone first ball. This might get ugly

Cricket's a funny game - that sort of thing was always going to happen...

alfie wrote:That's a well timed declaration  , I think.  Any later and they'd have taken tea...as it is  , the openers will have no time to rest and will also have to make two starts...

Yep, whilst I would have tried to prolong Pakistan’s agony in the field, the most important thing for me was not to let their openers have a 20 minute breather before going out. We didn’t and Woakes made it count immediately.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:In line with my post late last night, I would be eyeing the clock more than the scoreboard for a declaration. Pakistan are shot. Shoot them some more before pulling the plug.
Although I think England will do it earlier, I would declare to give them 90 minutes tonight. More time doesn’t always get you more time.

Guildford - I wonder if this might be a rare occasion its worth declaring during an interval, to save the two overs lost for change of innings? We're going to need every over possible.

Not for me, Olly. Don’t give the openers time for a shower and a cup of that tea they keep advertising! Pull the plug when they don’t particularly expect it and then get ‘em out there.

No guarantees of course that it will work but that would be my approach.

I bow to you, oh wise one

Suppose Shan Masood will make 200 now...they weren't easy catches , but still...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:In line with my post late last night, I would be eyeing the clock more than the scoreboard for a declaration. Pakistan are shot. Shoot them some more before pulling the plug.
Although I think England will do it earlier, I would declare to give them 90 minutes tonight. More time doesn’t always get you more time.

Guildford - I wonder if this might be a rare occasion its worth declaring during an interval, to save the two overs lost for change of innings? We're going to need every over possible.

Not for me, Olly. Don’t give the openers time for a shower and a cup of that tea they keep advertising! Pull the plug when they don’t particularly expect it and then get ‘em out there.

No guarantees of course that it will work but that would be my approach.

I bow to you, oh wise one

The beauty of our game, Grasshopper, is that we never know for sure what will happen.

Other than a Tapal Tea advert soon appearing!

Couple of close chances to really turn the screw.

Has been odd that in a test full of runs, the first wicket has fell at 8/1, 4/1 and now 0/1!

The cheapest of wickets and England right in amongst it.

Babar walks out under mountainous pressure.

alfie wrote:Suppose Shan Masood will make 200 now...they weren't easy catches , but still...

All ok he lobbed up an easy one

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Suppose Shan Masood will make 200 now...they weren't easy catches , but still...

All ok he lobbed up an easy one

Back to normal then

Duty281 wrote:Couple of close chances to really turn the screw.

Has been odd that in a test full of runs, the first wicket has fell at 8/1, 4/1 and now 0/1!

Two ducks for openers - must be feeling a bit rubbish, although to be fair Pope hit his shot pretty well and just within the wingspan of the fielder who took a really good catch.

Second wicket just gone, with Masood clipping straight to Crawley at midwicket

Ha. Soft dismissal after getting two chances...Masood's game went south very far over the last couple of days. Looking as if Pakistan are keeping up their dreadful third innings record and England are heading for a win despite a pitch apparently designed for a ten day Test...

Well bowled Atkinson .. Babar gone and this could conceivably be over tonight !

This one's done. Stick a fork in it.

Pakistan's top four playing like their pre-series form indicated. Babar will face calls to be dropped, but not sure who they have to replace him.

Into that potentially tricky 5-7 axis now, but surely too much time left in this one.

Pressure, scrambled brains and lack of confidence certainly harming Pakistan - Babar out with a nick to the slips and then the opener, after batting OK for a while smashes one up into the air and caught by Duckett (that will have tested the dislocated thumb).
So no wicket went down for effectively a day's play, and now 8 gone in the last session or so, since Root's departure. Understandable for England, between tiredness and trying to push the scoring rate. Absoutely shocking for Pakistan's top order though.

Saim Ayub scored 29, conceded 101. Can't be many openers that have put up numbers like that.

And that was a gift...good catch , mind But these chaps aren't showing any sort of resolve to fight this out. Just a question of when ...

Losing within 4 days after putting 550 should be cause enough for two tiers of test cricket

It's going to be 11 home tests in a row without a win for Pakistan. Absolutely shocking record, probably the worst run of any established test nation.

It's difficult to imagine just how low the confidence is within that Pakistan set up. Shan Masood, too, as captain has led his team to five straight defeats, looking like six!

You can certainly see despite some non-flattering county stats, why England like Carse. Can bat, hitting high 80s here...very Plunkett-esque

Rizwan out bowled now - 5 down for less than 60. Could still be all over today, and an innings defeat after scoring 550 in the first innings...

Someone on the BBC live text has suggested that the only thing needed to make this a perfect day for England would be Pope having a successful review.

Well we do have to praise England : first for battling away so determinedly in the heat after losing the toss and facing that huge second wicket stand , and then for batting so brilliantly to a monster score. But Pakistan really do look to be in a sorry state at present (remembering that Bangladesh series too) Something not right in that dressing room. Add to their troubles of course the odd ball is really keeping a bit low now. With Rizwan gone now I really wonder if we might see an extra half hour situation tonight...

alfie wrote:Well we do have to praise England  : first for battling away so determinedly in the heat after losing the toss and facing that huge second wicket stand , and then for batting so brilliantly to a monster score. But Pakistan really do look to be in a sorry state at present (remembering that Bangladesh series too)  Something not right in that dressing room.          Add to their troubles of course the odd ball is really keeping a bit low now. With Rizwan gone now I really wonder if we might see an extra half hour situation tonight...

The problem with that is likely to be the light, which goes quickly. 19 overs scheduled this evening, so only really needs one pair to put us some resistance to take this into tomorrow. Still two proper batsmen at the crease.

alfie wrote:Well we do have to praise England  : first for battling away so determinedly in the heat after losing the toss and facing that huge second wicket stand , and then for batting so brilliantly to a monster score. But Pakistan really do look to be in a sorry state at present (remembering that Bangladesh series too)  Something not right in that dressing room.          Add to their troubles of course the odd ball is really keeping a bit low now. With Rizwan gone now I really wonder if we might see an extra half hour situation tonight...

Not sure you'll see an extra half hour Alfie - because it's been pitch black about 30-45 minutes after the scheduled close of play through the test!

Which is somewhat comical given the time lost to lunch tomorrow will (not) be made up at the end of play instead of starting earlier

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:You can certainly see despite some non-flattering county stats, why England like Carse. Can bat, hitting high 80s here...very Plunkett-esque

As has and does Carlos. A good call by our foodster friend.

Abrar won't bat so 3 to go

Leach fires one in and Smith takes a sharp catch. Wicket second ball for Leach.

I wasn't really believing this could end today, unlike Alfie, but there's still 50 minutes of play/13.4 overs left, and Abrar is unable to bat. So, just three away. Could end tonight.

GSC wrote:Which is somewhat comical given the time lost to lunch tomorrow will (not) be made up at the end of play instead of starting earlier

Ridiculous.

Vaughan calling it one of England's great test days, not entirely sure England have had to do much beyond be professional. Pakistan have been dismal

If Pakistan lose by an innings, it will (unsurprisingly!) set another record.

Currently, the highest 1st innings score by a team that went on to lose by an innings is 492, which was made by Ireland last year. Sri Lanka responded with 704, and Ireland ended up losing by an innings and 10 runs.

Duty281 wrote:Leach fires one in and Smith takes a sharp catch. Wicket second ball for Leach.

I wasn't really believing this could end today, unlike Alfie, but there's still 50 minutes of play/13.4 overs left, and Abrar is unable to bat. So, just three away. Could end tonight.

All things in the mix and even with the fluffed stumping first dig, Smith has performed a good and unselfish role (so far).

It might as well end tonight. Hardly any spectators even today and who is coming back to watch 2 or 3 rabbits get out tomorrow ? I know the light may be a problem; but given the current situation I reckon it is only going to take a mistake from Salman and it could be done in fifteen minutes...No need for extra time

Duty281 wrote:Stone is unlikely to be available for the second test, which makes me wonder why they picked him for this tour? He surely couldn't play this test, because his wedding is on Saturday and this test might not finish until late Friday, and he's unlikely to be around for the second test. So they picked him for just the third test?

That, and Hull's injury with no replacement, leaves England in a tricky spot, as Potts is the only fresh seamer available, with Woakes/Carse/Atkinson all getting through a lot of work in tough conditions already. Second test starts on Tuesday, at the same ground.

It has also been nearly five years since the last triple century in tests, which was Warner v Pakistan in November 2019. I think it's currently the biggest wait for a triple ton since the 16 year wait between Rowe's effort in 1974 and Gooch's in 1990 (which was England's last). Good chance tomorrow?

Hi Duty - I don't believe you've been given nearly enough credit for this hugely perceptive post on Tuesday night.

Not as great an achievement as Brook's but still remarkable.

Bashir wants to come back tomorrow apparently

GSC wrote:Bashir wants to come back tomorrow apparently

Rubbish attempt. Carse's effort and planning deserved much better.

England have dropped a few tough catches today but that one was a real sitter. Bashir will have to produce a wicket now with ball to make amends...

Seems this Salman and Jamal stand is going to bring the players back tomorrow after all ... Shouldn't take too long though , special holy day hours or not. Carse might prefer to finish it tonight as he's done a bit of hard work in this innings , into his 10th over in the two spells. If that catch had been held suspect he might been able to do so. At least we know it won't rain

Was poor from Bashir. He's going to have to improve his bowling a lot I feel to stay in the side. Seems to be in the team because he's tall and is able to be carried when playing at home vs Windies and Sri Lanka and away to this shambles. But the other sides of his game, it's Monty mark 2

I'm no great fan of Leach, but he's shown in this test why he should be ahead of Bashir in the England pecking order (and indeed why he actually is in the Somerset pecking order).

Anyway, back for the finish tomorrow. I've no idea how Pakistan recover from here in terms of the series. Sloppiness from England might be their best bet, though England have been highly professional in this one.

Leach has had a pretty terrible run of injuries that makes it hard to trust him unfortunately. But I understand why England would rather pick Bashir and Somerset Leach. We've discussed it before but they don't rate the county championship and just pick players with attributes to develop themselves. With Bashir the attributes are obvious even if he's quite raw. That's probably ok until England tour Australia and India and need to lean on him.

A remarkable days cricket that I've just had the chance to catchup on. Root and Brook were superlative. It's a dog of a pitch and the Pakistan attack was knackered. It was largely Root and Brook who knackered them though, then reaped the rewards.

After a team has been battered in the field like that, it feels so likely for a collapse. That Woakes beauty first up summed it up. It swung away about as much as the ball has swung in this Test, then decked back in about as far as a ball has seamed. It's so typical of that sort of scenario where a team is down. Masood then looked beyond scrambled coming out for the second ball after 150 overs of shellacking.

The seamers largely bowled really well indeed to take advantage though.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:You can certainly see despite some non-flattering county stats, why England like Carse. Can bat, hitting high 80s here...very Plunkett-esque

As has and does Carlos. A good call by our foodster friend.

Why thank you Mr Bat! He just strikes me as a seamer who can do things English seamers often can't. Throw in him being able to bat as Olly says. It's a pretty darn useful skillset.

I've been banging on about things like this for years though. Cricket selection is so stuck in its ways and idiosyncratic at times. We should pick change bowlers to be change bowlers instead of a junior seamer who's there because he's good with the new Dukes in the CC. We should pick batters who suit conditions the same as we do with bowlers - i.e. I'd have had Jennings in the squad for the India tour but dropped him at home even if he scored 5 successive tons. So Carse is very much in the wheelhouse I would try to find an excuse to defend as a selection!

He just look a very useful change bowler to me if England can refine their tactics around his strengths. Quick. Tall enough to get good bounce. He seems very fit and more durable than most quicks. He certainly needs to get more accurate. Many seamers who come into Test cricket need to get more accurate for the step up though. Likewise, I think he needs either better command of his wobble ball or something akin to Tim Southee's three quarter seam wobble ball to add variety. Again, so many seamers coming into Test cricket need to add a skill such as that. In the past it was usually outswing bowlers who cleaned up at F-C level needing an inswinger to survive in Tests. Now, the wobble ball in its varieties has taken over as a far more reliable skill that isn't as conditions reliant.

If he shows promise in that first change role, then I just hope that he gets the time to develop the same as we would with an exciting young opening bowler. Someone who can chip away with an older ball isn't sexy but it could take a big load off other seamers so we can use them in conditions that best best them.

I know we hate the obsession with looking ahead to the Ashes, but, I think his batting is even more important in the context of Woakes being so poor against the short ball. In home conditions, Woakes is a brilliant number 8 and even a number 7. In Australia, he should get bombed with short stuff to the point of looking like a number 10 though. He just isn't comfortable off the back foot. As such, England will need seam options who aren't a weakness batting at 8. Atkinson has talent but is ideally a good number 9. Potts and Stone can hold a bat but aren't number 8s. Wood is mightily entertaining with the bat, but a 9 at best. Carse seems the most able of the seamers outside of Woakes to suit that number 8 spot.

king_carlos wrote:I know we hate the obsession with looking ahead to the Ashes, but, I think his batting is even more important in the context of Woakes being so poor against the short ball. In home conditions, Woakes is a brilliant number 8 and even a number 7. In Australia, he should get bombed with short stuff to the point of looking like a number 10 though. He just isn't comfortable off the back foot. As such, England will need seam options who aren't a weakness batting at 8. Atkinson has talent but is ideally a good number 9. Potts and Stone can hold a bat but aren't number 8s. Wood is mightily entertaining with the bat, but a 9 at best. Carse seems the most able of the seamers outside of Woakes to suit that number 8 spot.

A big "if", but "if" we could head to Aus next year with a battery of a combination of Atkinson/Wood/Carse/Stone plus Potts and (in a dream world) Archer then we are suddenly shaping up decently on the seamer front, again providing Stokes is fit to balance the side at 6. Likes of Pennington/Tongue/Hull on the outside looking in.
Think ideally they will be looking at Atkinson to bat 8, with Carse his "backup" for that slot, and no Woakes for Aus. Then ideally one of Wood/Archer/Stone at 9, a spinner and then another seamer as you see fit.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I know we hate the obsession with looking ahead to the Ashes, but, I think his batting is even more important in the context of Woakes being so poor against the short ball. In home conditions, Woakes is a brilliant number 8 and even a number 7. In Australia, he should get bombed with short stuff to the point of looking like a number 10 though. He just isn't comfortable off the back foot. As such, England will need seam options who aren't a weakness batting at 8. Atkinson has talent but is ideally a good number 9. Potts and Stone can hold a bat but aren't number 8s. Wood is mightily entertaining with the bat, but a 9 at best. Carse seems the most able of the seamers outside of Woakes to suit that number 8 spot.

A big "if", but "if" we could head to Aus next year with a battery of a combination of Atkinson/Wood/Carse/Stone plus Potts and (in a dream world) Archer then we are suddenly shaping up decently on the seamer front, again providing Stokes is fit to balance the side at 6. Likes of Pennington/Tongue/Hull on the outside looking in.
Think ideally they will be looking at Atkinson to bat 8, with Carse his "backup" for that slot, and no Woakes for Aus. Then ideally one of Wood/Archer/Stone at 9, a spinner and then another seamer as you see fit.

I think Tongue could be really useful out there to be fair. Quick enough, gets bounce and has that out to in angle from getting past the vertical with his release point. When Australia pitches start cracking that natural angle into RHBs can be utterly lethal as seen by Boland's similar action there, plus the Aussie lefties such as Starc and Johnson coming around the wicket. When it seams off those cracks it tends to go big, so it's horrid having the ball angling in at your stumps knowing it could go away any delivery.

Fast - Wood, Archer, Carse
Slicker end of fast-medium - Atkinson, Stone, Tongue
Fast-medium - Potts, Pennington, Mahmood?

I think there's genuinely something there to work with. I've convinced myself of that before though. Knowing deep down that tours will be disastrous but convincing myself that if I squint at it just right after a few beers, then there's the mirage of hope. Looking at those options though, I genuinely think there is potential in this quicker stables of seamers they're trying to develop. Rather than the potential mirage of potential...

That's without Hull's potential left-arm angle and height too. I think there's a lot to work with there with if the coaches on the Lions tour can get the sequencing on his runup sorted. I know others disagreed after T3 of the Sri Lanka series. I don't think the changes are as drastic as others felt though.

Robinson is the giant frustration. He should be the medium-fast option in there who can offer control when it's flat and potency in the rare periods the Kookaburra does move. There's so much talent there. High release point, superb wrist control with the wobble ball, accuracy. He just seems to have been so lazy with his conditioning though. Infuriating.

Can't say they haven't given Robinson every chance. Maybe if he does it on his own for a period they'll reconsider

GSC wrote:Can't say they haven't given Robinson every chance. Maybe if he does it on his own for a period they'll reconsider

Agreed on both points. I think it'll require Robinson being as fit as he ever has been and producing absurd numbers on top of it at the start of next summer for them to reopen the door. I think that's fair enough after how frustrating he has been too.

Most seamers get injuries and plenty are unfortunate for them to happen mid Test. The times Robinson has waddled off mid-Test have coincided with bowling speeds in the 70s and generally looking unthreatening anyway though. Which screams poor conditioning, hence a lack of professionalism on his end, leading to the back injuries. Rather than just bad luck with injuries at inopportune times.

Sussex being promoted back into Div 1 at least means he'll have a higher standard pf CC games to try to make a real point.

I read an article about Robinson raring to play in The Ashes and will be doing everything possible to be there. It was utterly unconvincing, reminding me of similar articles they used to print about Gazza

Professional effort from England. Root and Brook did brilliently well to maximize the stupid pitch, but the conditions weatherwise were quite demanding. And scoring a test double ton, and a triple ton, will always have to be special efforts.
I thought England should have batted on for a bit while longer, just so that perhaps the Pak team will revolt against their revolting board that keeps producing such abominable pitches.
Woakes bowled the only ball that swung and seamed in the last 4 days, that happened to be the first ball of the Pak 2nd innings, and though Abdullah Shafique should have covered the full delivery, it made for the best viewing of all, for this test match really. Agha and Jamal have dragged it to day 5, and the pitch is still good enough for another week of cricket at least. But Pakistan has lost it in the mind, and if England separate these 2 early, it should be an innings win.
Also credit to Abrar Ahmed, smartly deciding enough is enough!

Another fun potential record.

Brook needs 125 more runs to get to 2000. He's currently had 31 innings. The fewest innings for an England player to reach 2000 runs was Sutcliffe with 33 knocks. So he needs 125 runs in his next innings to top Sutcliffe or across two innings to match him.

Ahead of Sutcliffe from all teams is Headley in second place with 32 innings, which Brook could still equal, and of course Don Bradman in first place. Not unsurprising. It took him 22 knocks. Yeah, the Don scored 2000 runs in his first 22 innings. Start as you mean to go on I guess!

Just can't be bothered with any talk of the Ashes.

England are a million miles away from being able to beat Australia in Australia. I'd rather focus on the India home series, which will be a tough, but ultimately winnable, affair. In Australia it would just be nice to win a test, and like with the tour of India earlier in the year, that should be the target. Anything further is a bonus.

The 2029/2030 Ashes in Australia might be more interesting, because by then the entire quartet of Australia's main bowling - Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Lyon - may have retired. I think Cummins is the only one who might make 2029/30. Smith might be retired as well by 2029. It'll be a huge upheaval for Australia to manage. Like the difference between 06/07 and 10/11, when the likes of Warne and McGrath retired, and the replacements were Doherty, Beer and Bollinger. But next year's Ashes? Forget it.

Oh, and I recently learnt England/Australia are playing a one off test at the MCG in March 2027, to mark 150 years of test cricket. There's also that.