England's winter of cricket 2024/25

First topic message reminder :

The squad for the tour of Pakistan has just been announced...Stokes and Crawley are back, with Dan Lawrence dropped. There are also recalls for Rehan Ahmed and Jack Leach, with Brydon Carse getting a tour also.

Full squad (likely XI then others);

Zak Crawley
Ben Duckett
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Harry Brook
Ben Stokes
Jamie Smith (wk)
Gus Atkinson
Olly Stone
Jack Leach
Shoaib Bashir

Reserves:
Jordan Cox
Brydon Carse
Rehan Ahmed
Chris Woakes
Josh Hull
Matthew Potts

Will MacPherson noting they see Tom Hartley as more suited for the true turning wickets of SL/India/Bangladesh, hence his omission. Tests likely to be played at Rawalpindi, Multan, Rawalpindi. (Two Pindi tests...fun).

Extra seamers suggest Stokes might not be fit to bowl?

KC - Yes, the war robbed the likes of Hutton and Compton of some of their best years.

When I was a kid Hammond was the leading Test run-getter and gawd knows how many more he would have made but for the 1939-45 conflict.

It says much for England Test selection, though, that Hammond's record of 22 centuries remained for so long until Pietersen and Cook went past it.

If you looked at the Test records for all countries 10 years ago, the most-100s table (as well as the list of top run-getters) was dominated by non-English players despite England playing more Tests than anyone else.

But first Cook, and now Root are making amends, with many commentators happy to predict that Joe could end up top of the heap.

Pakistan look to be in a bit of a state at the moment. Dropping their most experienced players (OK , Babar has been short of runs for a long time , but class is , etc) - and including most of the attack , for some less than illustrious replacements , strikes me as mainly signs of desperation. And then we have the reusable pitch...

Two dangers for England : the pitch because heaven only knows what it will do (though I suspect mainly just lower and slower with a few more occasions of the odd ball misbehaving , so possibly a bit of a raffle) and their own unfortunate habit of sometimes assuming in advance that the next game is in the bag. Perhaps as the last time overconfidence bit them on the arse was only two matches ago against Sri Lanka , they won't be so likely to fall into that trap.

You'd think Stokes plays but who they leave out probably depends on which of the seamers is most in need of a rest and what they think of the surface on offer. They have options with Potts and Rehan as well so really ought to be able to put together a suitable XI - and hopefully can do the job and secure a series win . Would still hope to see more of a contest despite obviously wanting an England win ; but am not holding my breath...

king_carlos wrote:Naseem getting dropped is ludicrous. He actually bowled pretty well despite his figures. It was a road and their spinners were offering no control.

As an England fan, even with their poor recent form, I'm happier seeing Babar and Shaheen out the team than in it. I don't think their replacements look likely to be any better. Plus, Shaheen actually bowled pretty well at times in T1.

At face value they seem to have made a poor team even worse.

If Stokes is fully fit to bowl then coming back in is fair enough. I'd probably lean towards Stokes for Pope to add a bowling option. Admittedly, I've got a fetish for seeing Stokes batting at 3 more. So I might be biased there. It just feels that using the true all-rounder to add a 6th bowler is better than it adding a 7th batter on this pitch though.

I'd hope that they rotate one of Atkinson or Carse out here, I'd lean towards keeping Carse in, for Potts to keep the seamers fresh. I'd probably try to avoid any of the seamers playing 3 Tests here if possible.

Sir, when you assume you make an ass out of me and you let's see what this pitch is before consigning it to the dirt heap! All reports are they're doing everything in their power to make it spicy...

England team confirmed with two changes;

Crawley, Duckett, Pope, Root, Brook, Stokes, Smith (wk), Carse, Potts, Leach, Bashir.
Woakes and Atkinson rested, Carse and Potts play. Stokes is a full go to bowl.

alfie wrote:Pakistan look to be in a bit of a state at the moment. Dropping their most experienced players (OK , Babar has been short of runs for a long time , but class is , etc) - and including most of the attack , for some less than illustrious replacements , strikes me as mainly signs of desperation. And then we have the reusable pitch...

I think I wrote somewhere at the start of this thread that Pak had to address the two problems that they aught to have at the start of the series, but did not have the courage to do without the historically ignominious debacle that occurred in T1.
They fixed these now...with series still alive

1- No point having stars who do not gel in team environment, undermine captain & pull in a direction different from team's cause.
Better to have 11 moderate players all pulling in the same direction then 4 or 5 stars who pull the other way.
They duly got rid of the Machiavellian stars led by Sarfraraz from the dressing room & will put out whatever next best talent they have in FC.

2- Engineer a pitch that makes it easier to pick 20 wicket, pushing it more towards a rank turner...and they have seemingly attempted that with variable bounce added.

Eng are still favorites to win, because they are a unified, gelled team & play clever cricket from a commonsensical POV
Game will be far more competitive I expect....and in any case better than the insult that T1 was for Pak.

I see Eng have brought Stokes & Potts for Woakes and Atkinson.
On paper this should improve the batting but weakens the bowling.....any way full time & part time spinners are likely to have a lion's share in bowling

My take is that a newly prepared strip would be very similar to the one from last week, so we'd expect large first innings again, and more likely a tame draw if Pakistan applied themselves second time up. As such, I can understand at least trying something different, but have a horrible feeling all we'll end up with is the same but slower and lower.

England changes are fairly understandable - presumably Atkinson will rotate back in for the third test, likely at the expense of Carse unless we need to go with 4 seamers.

Pakistan team is three frontline spinners, one seamer and Salman (so 4 spinners)...if you want any indication for what sort of wicket they are trying to prepare...

(XI is Saim, Shafique, Masood, Ghulam, Shakeel, Rizwan, Salman, Jamal, Ali, Khan, Mahmood)

Fair team selection. Maybe a bit of a risk bringing Stokes back, but I sense this will be a spinner-dominated affair, pretty much from the off, so I don't think Stokes will need to do much bowling.

Woakes, Atkinson and Stone will all be fresh options for the third test, which is a good choice to have.

Rumours starting that the third test will also be in Multan, with Rawalpindi very close to some political protests that are due to happen.

I guess they're trying for a lottery pitch. The footmarks and cracks from the first test will probably have some fairly unreliable repairs. Better opportunity for Bashir to attack I guess.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pakistan team is three frontline spinners, one seamer and Salman (so 4 spinners)...if you want any indication for what sort of wicket they are trying to prepare...

(XI is Saim, Shafique, Masood, Ghulam, Shakeel, Rizwan, Salman, Jamal, Ali, Khan, Mahmood)

Pakistan are utterly insane. Glad they've kept the worst partnership ever seen in Saim and Shafique (current partnerships with them - 0, 0, 5, 3, 7, 0, 8, 0).

I'm not sure if it's going to be a spitting cobra from the off to justify only one seamer, either. And none of those spinners are much good anyway.

England should win by a country mile.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pakistan team is three frontline spinners, one seamer and Salman (so 4 spinners)...if you want any indication for what sort of wicket they are trying to prepare...

(XI is Saim, Shafique, Masood, Ghulam, Shakeel, Rizwan, Salman, Jamal, Ali, Khan, Mahmood)

They have gone with 1 more spinner than i thought even if it's a rank turner.
1 SLA , a offie and leggie each as front-line spinners in addition to Salman's off spin and no less than Salman is debutant Ghulam as a SLA so 5 spin options + only 1 seamer who is an allrounder.
Pak has read the pitch very differently and gone for all or broke .
Sajid Khan's spin aught to open the bowling.
There are reportedly big cracks that they tried to water & then it seemed they poured too muhc water and brought giant fans to dry off the water.
It could be a 3 day game, going by Pak's reading.

3 spinners is a weird selection too. Kind of giving it away you don't really trust any of them

Somerset have signed some bad overseas players recently - but Sajid Khan taking 5 wickets at 71 in September in 2022 was a real low.

I don’t mind Pakistan making it a bit more of a lottery, you should take the risk when you are clearly the worse side. But England have the better batters and better spinners so should be no undue worries.

Azhar Mahmood said "We are using the used pitch because we want to take 20 wickets against England. We believe turning track is our best option to take 20 wickets in Multan"

Images of Pitch posted by blue tick Pak journos

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pakistan team is three frontline spinners, one seamer and Salman (so 4 spinners)...if you want any indication for what sort of wicket they are trying to prepare...

(XI is Saim, Shafique, Masood, Ghulam, Shakeel, Rizwan, Salman, Jamal, Ali, Khan, Mahmood)

My only conclusion from this is that someone on the Pakistan selection panel has money on Joe Root passing Dravid and Kallis's Test runs total this series-only needs to average 313 per match to do it, and if he gets two innings per match could get close

Could this be the Test where Root takes more wickets than scores runs?

Boycott did it - in a WC match v Australia in 1979.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pakistan team is three frontline spinners, one seamer and Salman (so 4 spinners)

Could even throw in Saim (2-101 in the first test) too.

Lowlandbrit wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pakistan team is three frontline spinners, one seamer and Salman (so 4 spinners)

Could even throw in Saim (2-101 in the first test) too.

Could also add Shakeel, who bowled two overs in the first test, and debutant Ghulam, who has 28 FC wickets @ 45.

Seven spinners. Is it enough?

Sounds quite bits and pieces to me. Sack Jason Gillespie and put Mark Ealham in charge

Would quite like to wake up to Mr Pope having won this toss tomorrow!

Well Pakistan have their first wish granted as they've won the toss so can at least hope to have their spinners bowling last... you'd think that should be some advantage ; but we don't yet know how the resurrected zombie pitch will actually behave.

Will find out soon enough if England's more "balanced" attack has the tools to get the hosts out for something modest in context.

So off we go ; with Potts kicking off the action as the first of the all-Durham seam team (later to be followed by the all-Somerset spin twins). And maybe the all-Yorkshire part time relief , if young Harry wants to aid Root with a bit of his "variety" ? Quiet start...Potts fairly full , Carse a bit shorter ; nothing too alarming yet ...although the last ball from Carse seemed to keep a bit low. As does the last of Potts second over...Reckon there might be some reverse on offer later . 9 runs from the first three so we wait to see if this pair can at last get a double figure opening stand...

Eng put their spinner in, in the 6th over.
So far the watering, drying & rolling is holding the pitch well and should continue to for atleats 2 to 3 hours

Great toss to win on Day 5 pitch

Stokes ringing the changes early...just two Carse overs and he's replaced by Jack Leach. Potts also giving way now to Bashir , so it is clear what England think of this strip.15/0 after six. Abdullah hogging the strike and very watchful so far.

And another spinner in 7th Over.
No spin yet.....for Bashir either....pitch should hold for a session atleats

A shade of spin for both spinners and Leach gets one

Hi , KP_fan... that last ball from Bashir turned . And Leach has done for Abdullah with a beauty ! 15/1...Which at least is about a record opening stand for these two

By the look of pitch and how Eng are using their spinners, Pott already looks surplus and how Eng would be wishing they had picked Rehan.
Shafiq played a bit down the wrong line

There is some turn but not alarming , nor is the ball jumping now.
Shafiq's dismissal looked spectacular but he played down the wrong line not covering his off stump.
There is about 3 good hours after which the pitch cracks will open up and those 100 runs that Pak can score by then, might be the difference

He really should have played that better...didn't turn very far ; and footwork was minimal. Reckon if Pakistan try to play too passively they will be in trouble here , especially given their confidence is likely to be fragile after the previous game.

Good low catch Crawley...goodbye Shan Masood , two for Leach and the signs are already ominous for the home team

Tough time for the new player Kamran to enter at 19/2...but he's off the mark with a streaky single past gully

You are right alfie....Pak need to bat more positively. There has been slow turn but no demons in the pitch so far.
Both Pak batters have fallen to self imposed pressure
Eng just a clever side bowling very tightly. Didn't waste time trying to justify 3 seamers and bowling them

Leach looks dangerous. That one bounced , the resultant pop up only just evaded Pope at short leg. Can't see this game producing 1600 runs or lasting four days...

Better from these two. Saim Ayub with some wristy strokes and Kamran Ghulam advancing to strike Leach for a straight six...some good running too. 42/2 ...time for Tapal Tea ..

Root coming on. .I like this move. The spinners are going to have plenty of work so makes sense to shuffle them around a bit. Also makes the bats have to adjust rather than getting too grooved in playing the same bowling all the time. These two have been playing quite well , to have the fifty up after that awful start 55/2 from 20 overs as Leach has just switched ends...

So actually just the one over for Root as the other two have simply switched ends. There is spin , but it is slow. And only a couple of balls have bounced sharply so batting isn't looking quite so tricky as it threatened to be with the two early wickets...still going to need a lot of concentration.

Spinners switched back to original ends , bit more Root...and now Potts back in the attack but so far nothing has disturbed this useful stand - now worth 59. With all this spin , we might even see 30 overs in the session ? Ten minutes left , 27 down at 78/2...and Carse also back on.

Oh rats....umpire walked too slowly in from square leg and so called time for lunch after just 29 overs. Good recovery by Pakistan to reach 79/2. Back in 40 minutes...

Pitch has started to turn on day 6. might be tricky batting in the 8th inning

Would like to see Carse given a spell - if England had only intended to bowl spin, they really should've brought in Ahmed for Atkinson, rather than Potts.

All Pakistan since lunch...good partnership , this. Saim Ayub will be happy with this fifty , and Kamran Ghulam now has his too in an impressive debut...115/2

Kamran has been a good replacement for Babar.
Organized , straight bat in defense, good use of feet, blends well the occasional sweep.
Pitch is turning for sure , like the slow Indian turners but should break faster , probably today, unlike the Indian pitches.
Eng has picked 3 seamers so better bowl them.,  there should be reverse.
There was a definite case for 2 seamers only which probably overruled by slight uncertainty around Stokes fitness.
Outfield too slow, hits not getting to boundary

Hard graft out there. It's just all a bit slow on this pitch.

Still hopeful England can keep Pakistan below 400, but it was another bloody good toss to win.

Good bowling, good plan, to capture Ayub just before tea. Precious opening.

Not sure current indications show that Pakistan's one seamer approach is a correct one.

173/3 at tea.

Set up for a very good final session. Pakistan have to get back in after tea, settle, and look to score. England will be looking at the first half hour and the new ball phase as the main chances to induce panic in a line up which does have the propensity for total collapse.

Ayub rather fell for that one. Bit more reverse in the pitch already

Pak would hope to get to 400 although pitch and outfield is so slow and ball gets worn and soft so quickly that getting the ball out of the ring of fielders itself is hard.
so even if you don't lose wicket it's hard to score runs

Good grab by Smith and good bowling by the impressive Carse. Big partnership this now with Rizwan to the crease...

So 178-4, but the bulk of the runs from the one partnership (149). Maybe not an easy wicket to start on, but plays OK once you're in?
Or perhaps Pakistan's lack of confidence allied to some decent accurate bowling?

One thing to note is it seems to be a bit of a 'backwards' pitch that the spinners are benefiting from the new ball and the hardness, while the older ball is reversing and making the seamers more dangerous. Not sure that Pakistan's selection is sufficiently balanced, so they will need some serious wear of the pitch before England bat.

Good spell from Carse since tea. Always good to get the dangerous Shakeel early.

England going back to Leach now. Just one wicket away from being properly in amongst it.

Ahhh, Duckett spills a tough-ish one. Quite wide of him.