England V Australia Saturday 9th November

First topic message reminder :

After the disappointment of the NZ defeat what team should we play against the Wallabies? A defeat in this match would be an undoubted disaster and of course the boys need some confidence before taking on the mighty SA so a decent performance and a victory are the must have requirements.

We cannot afford another scrummaging disaster so surely Marler has to return at the expense of Baxter? He needs a hit out to get ready for the bomb squad. I would also love to replace Dombrandt with Willis. Anything else?

England team to face Australia: G Furbank; I Feyi-Waboso, O Lawrence, H Slade, T Freeman; M Smith, B Spencer; E Genge, J George, W Stuart, M Itoje, G Martin, C Cunningham-South, T Curry, B Earl.

Replacements: L Cowan-Dickie, F Baxter, D Cole, N Isiekwe, A Dombrandt, H Randall, G Ford, O Sleightholme.

Australia: Wright; Kellaway, Suaalii, Ikitau, Pietsch; Lolesio, Gordon; Bell, Faessler, Tupou, Frost, Williams, Valetini, McReight, Wilson (capt).

Replacements: Paenga-Amosa, Slipper, Alaalatoa, Salakaia-Loto, Gleeson, McDermott, Donaldson, Jorgensen.

But looking at the game as a whole Australia played some good heads up rugby, asked some questions of England and towards the end looked fitter.
Did the ref miss stuff? Well yes but he missed stuff for and against both sides. I will say I thought the slightholm incident could and possibly should have been a yellow, but nowhere near a red.

Entertaining for the neutral and who ever convinced Suaalli to come back to union deserves a medal

hugehandoff wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I am stunned that the shoulder to the face of Sleightholme wasn't even looked at. Poor from the ref and the TMO.

Whatever we say about England,  Australia are good value to watch if you're a neutral. We NEED some better skills in the backs. George Ford's pass to Lawrence was woeful.

Blaming the ref is irrelevant....England were woeful yet again (I appreciate that the ref may have missed a few things, but Austin clearly thought we were lucky with 2 pens in the 1st half which we converted into 6 points). Ford's pass was poor but Lawrence overran it. So many players had poor games. It is all our own fault.

I didn't think the ref had a bad game so I am not blaming him. However it was shoulder to head as well as cynical. There's no continuity from the officials.

Ford has twice been rubbish. That missed tackle on Telea and that pass. It's basic stuff. Lawrence may have overrun? They do this in training - it should stick. This is not an Under 13s side. They need to be better.

Mr Bounce wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:In defence of ford he's played next to no rugby and is being asked to come on and see out an international match. He's being put in a situation where he's bound to fail

So why play him when Fin Smith is available and fit and firing?

Well that's a question for the coaches

TJ wrote:

I am stunned that the shoulder to the face of Sleightholme wasn't even looked at. Poor from the ref and the TMO.

I am sure it was checked in the background.  I did not see it myself.  Not all head contact is foul play

True - but this incident was ...

Need to change up squad immediately. Sorry but old guard not cutting it.
I don't care now if we lose to SA which we will probably anyway. Get new blood in now and build for future.
That was simply not good enough.

when not if ...

doctor_grey wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:In defence of ford he's played next to no rugby and is being asked to come on and see out an international match. He's being put in a situation where he's bound to fail

So that would be a clear coaching issue?

For me yes. Last night Ireland had POM, herring and Henderson on the bench who between them have played at most 40mins of rugby. They came on and did very little. They never should have been there. It's not their fault, of course your going to represent your country when asked, but if there are options who are fit and have minutes under the belt they should be there instead.

I

England I felt seemed to lack the zip of last week. They were nowhere near as quick to the breakdown. And please, stop box kicking everything...

Rugby Fan wrote:So far, I've deleted three sarky posts, so I'll just leave this as a placeholder.

That a first for you? Most chilled mod I’ve met

Thought Smith was excellent attack wise but unfortunately he cost us the game by biting in for their match winning try. Had to stay out there. Worrying how we can’t control again despite seemingly being in full control at different stages this week and last week

No idea what posts were but why is sarcasm not allowed? If posts are offensive etc then fine remove them but sarky?
I'll add none were from me

Northgrill wrote:Thought Smith was excellent attack wise but unfortunately he cost us the game by biting in for their match winning try. Had to stay out there. Worrying how we can’t control again despite seemingly being in full control at different stages this week and last week

Come on, he's done everything. He was one of few chasing back. Can't blame him for loss at end.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:So far, I've deleted three sarky posts, so I'll just leave this as a placeholder.

That a first for you? Most chilled mod I’ve met

They were my own sarky posts! I felt being negative was just too easy, so I'll wait until I have something positive to say. (Captain Oates sound bite).

Rugby Fan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:So far, I've deleted three sarky posts, so I'll just leave this as a placeholder.

That a first for you? Most chilled mod I’ve met

They were my own sarky posts! I felt being negative was just too easy, so I'll wait until I have something positive to say. (Captain Oates sound bite).

Could be a long wait

Heaf wrote:

TJ wrote:

I am stunned that the shoulder to the face of Sleightholme wasn't even looked at. Poor from the ref and the TMO.

I am sure it was checked in the background.  I did not see it myself.  Not all head contact is foul play

True - but this incident was ...

TJ tends to believe foul play vs England doesn't count

Not seen the match, just reading here and the BBC match thread. Betting that Curry was crucial for doing all the unseen work in the backrow to let Earl and CCS shine. Sleighthome did OK Smith was good and beyond that a mixed bag.

Worse thing will be to see the same team (except for those injured) picked next week.

It was both a spectacular and very weird game. If Australia didn't have the colossal stones to try one final attack down the wing at the death, everyone on here would be much happier.

Some huge performances - Itoje was a giant again, Cunningham South looks like an absolute monster and Sleightholme a rifleman of the highest class.

Gossamer thin margins. England seemed to be playing through its systems rather than the (probably not preferable) Aussie approach of relying on the lavish talents of their high stepping backline.

England played very well at times, there's no doubt about that but I agree with Austin when he says England's defensive systems need to be looked at. Marcus Smith made two tries at least with clever kicks and also made a couple of major defensive howlers when he was caught out of position and always seems to try for an intercept rather than actually tackle the man running straight. Jury is still out. When Finn Russell runs down an alleyway of opposition shirts like a demented fraggle, according to some fans he's a showboating idiot; when Smith does it and gets stuck, according to the same fans he's a visionary who just got unlucky - fans need to decide if they want a running 10 or not. It's not a straightforward decision and it won't be for Farrell when it comes to the Lions either.

I don't blame Smith for anything today, he was head and shoulders England best player. Did everything he try come off? No but he actually looked like he knew what to do and when.

Going backwards fast. We looked tired and lacked basic skills at times. However credit where credit is due Australia looking decent again. If only we had someone like Schmidt in charge. What's borthwick excuse this time?

mountain man wrote:I don't blame Smith for anything today, he was head and shoulders England best player. Did everything he try come off? No but he actually looked like he knew what to do and when.

He certainly knows where the try line is.

Yoda wrote:....What's borthwick excuse this time?

Here you go.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1855304075031478596

Just reminds me of how lackluster he was as captain back in the day despite a reputation for intelligence - 'master of the lineout' etc.

doctor_grey wrote:

Yoda wrote:....What's borthwick excuse this time?

Here you go.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1855304075031478596

Well that's a big bag of nothing he just spouted.

Mr Bounce wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Yoda wrote:....What's borthwick excuse this time?

Here you go.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1855304075031478596

Well that's a big bag of nothing he just spouted.

Exactly. He is good at it.

I'm not on X but can guess it was bland excuses/reasons for loss but in fairness what can a coach say immediately post match after loss especially when expected to win.
He is very very dull to listen to but that's his character so bit tough to complain about that. He definitely doesn't inspire me just listening to him so I wonder how players react to him.
Anyway, will he quit or be sacked? Cannot see it.

Some players should share the blame with brothers. Many had shockers in terms of missed tackles and unforced errors. However conditioning and tactics were all over the place which is on the coaches. Borthwick has got selection wrong and has played players who are just back from injury. Clearly when a team is performing below their potential it is an indicator that coaching set up is hindering the team.

Well yes we said that before and after NZ match. Players back in with no rugby. Borthwick culpable for team and players for errors.

Woah wasn't expecting that! What a win Australia.

Wallabies have so many talented individuals, they've just struggled to pull it together as a team. It was a bit of a mad game, and not exactly a blueprint that should be repeated every game. They showed great attacking endeavour, powerful carries and showed plenty grit to keep going.

As for Joseph Sua'ali'ili - not a bad professional rugby debut! Will be interesting to see how he gets on when defences start to figure him out, but jeez he caused England problems. Very difficult to put down, always getting the ball free in the tackle, great athleticism and aerial ability and seemed to manage ok defensively. I was reading as a schoolboy his team had a restart tactic that would target him chasing the ball and he'd always get it back - he wasn't far off that with Australian restarts today.

Without getting too carried away, a strong Australia team would be fantastic to shake up world rugby (and not least the Lions tour) - I wonder if they can keep this up.

Well, that’s £92 and most of a day I won’t get back. Still, Oz will be a bit peeved it took them 83 minutes to beat that rag, tag & bobtail England outfit - a side that clearly struggles to pass, catch or hang onto the ball in contact. And a few tackles might have been nice. Who’d have thunk England would be fighting just to get 1 win out of a home series of four.

Just caught the replay. What a test match! Hard luck England fans, but massive result for the Wallabies.

The biggest surprise for me during that game was how often Australia found a way to get over the gain line. Their pack worked incredibly hard and Angus Bell in particular is showing more and more class with every game. They've come a long way since last years world cup, they're showing real progress under Schmidt.

Suaalii had a dream debut, all that was missing was a try I suppose but his offloads were outrageous. Sonny Bill 2.0 has arrived

Mr Bounce wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I am stunned that the shoulder to the face of Sleightholme wasn't even looked at. Poor from the ref and the TMO.

Whatever we say about England,  Australia are good value to watch if you're a neutral. We NEED some better skills in the backs. George Ford's pass to Lawrence was woeful.

Blaming the ref is irrelevant....England were woeful yet again (I appreciate that the ref may have missed a few things, but Austin clearly thought we were lucky with 2 pens in the 1st half which we converted into 6 points). Ford's pass was poor but Lawrence overran it. So many players had poor games. It is all our own fault.

I didn't think the ref had a bad game so I am not blaming him. However it was shoulder to head as well as cynical. There's no continuity from the officials.

Ford has twice been rubbish. That missed tackle on Telea and that pass. It's basic stuff. Lawrence may have overrun? They do this in training - it should stick. This is not an Under 13s side. They need to be better.

Ford runs a set play that opens up the Aussie side. Lawrence slightly over runs and can't take the pass. Possibly his timing is more for Marcus than for Ford. That pass sticks and Lawrence is straight through and England probably score.

Ford isn't fully fit but England went from struggling to playing like they were in the first 20 with him on the pitch and Smith at 15. Ford taking responsibility off of Smith's shoulders and just allowing him to play what he sees really was a turning point for our attack. Furbank should have offered something similar but for the second week in a row very disappointing.

mountain man wrote:I don't blame Smith for anything today, he was head and shoulders England best player. Did everything he try come off? No but he actually looked like he knew what to do and when.

Smith made a couple of mistakes and struggled to both direct the side and play on the gain line. Yes, the final try was partly down to his misread but also because Sleightholme hesitates on the inside instead of following Slade in firing out the line.

Smith will start again next week because he's too good not to play. However, what position he plays and the structure around him needs to be looked at. His weakness always has been game management and at international level he drops in and out of games. I think he's doing too much. Spencer at 9 I presume is there to assist in that area but it's not enough. We need either Furbank or Slade to step up and start being a far more proactive secondary playmaker or we need to adjust the backline so that there is a proactive playmaker organising and taking the pressure off Smith.

That or we move Smith to 15 and use Ford at 10 though he's not fully fit and the Boks isn't the time to throw Fin Smith into that role.

Smith will start again next week because he's too good not to play. However, what position he plays and the structure around him needs to be looked at. His weakness always has been game management and at international level he drops in and out of games. I think he's doing too much. Spencer at 9 I presume is there to assist in that area but it's not enough. We need either Furbank or Slade to step up and start being a far more proactive secondary playmaker or we need to adjust the backline so that there is a proactive playmaker organising and taking the pressure off Smith.

That or we move Smith to 15 and use Ford at 10 though he's not fully fit and the Boks isn't the time to throw Fin Smith into that role.

I think the structure is the critical thing and I thought in this game Smith showed maturity and a bit of game management I had not seen before. The grubbers thru tho they worked are a high risk strategy and he was forced into it by a lack of options to pass to

Smith at 10 for sure, he won't be 15 against Boks certainly not starting there. Might well see Steward at 15 though.
We need Slade to be dropped, think that's is what he needs.

Alex (not Andy) Goode notes how England didn't always commit to the defensive system.



On the BBC podcast, Matt Dawson and Paul Grayson both crititcized the move where England spilled the ball in midfield and Kellaway sped away to score under the posts. They said it's basic rugby knowledge that you'd attack close to your pack, or go wide in that situation. Going up the middle is a high risk. Alex Goode thinks it was a good move to call but was executed badly.

I'm not sufficiently steeped in rugby tactics to know who is right there. I would like to know in the England reviews whether Borthwick believes his players are making the right decisions but executing poorly, or if he thinks they are just doing the wrong things in the first place.

I'd agree with Alex Goode the move opened up the Aussie defence nicely. Lawrence overruns the move and Ford forces the pass under pressure. It's clearly the right move as if Lawrence takes that pass he's off into plenty of space and carrying deep into the Aussie half. He gets the right support and makes the right decisions and England score.

Ben Youngs has taken a lot of heat for his pre-match comments



The analysis is interesting, partly because Youngs and Watson don't always agree. If you don't want to spend 30 minutes watching or listening to it, then among the points they make are:

- England failed to reimpose control, when the looser game evidently suited Australia

- While Kellaway's try came from a dropped ball in midfield, the other four were all from moves where the English defence should have been set. Youngs thinks England blitzed everything, when it would have been better to choose the moment. He thinks blitzing that last Australian play was a mistake. Watson disagrees, saying the blitz often wasn't executed properly. It should have worked on the last play, and the ball should never have made it out wide.

- Youngs is concerned about England's attack. Marcus Smith was the only man creating anything. Australia's willingness to go for a try with the last play, rather thank milk a penalty, was a stark contrast with England's attitude against a 14-man New Zealand last week. Furbank has been largely anonymous this autumn, instead of acting as an extra playmaker.

- Youngs is annoyed England couldn't collect the last kick-off, saying this is a drill players practice all the time, throughout their career. Watson was more forgiving, saying all teams try are trying to be more disruptive. He pointed out that England did the same on the restart after Kellaway's try.

- Youngs says England stopped playing, after they retook the lead before the Kellaway try, despite the fact they had got back into the game by playing. [This is a critique others have made, which seems a bit at odds with the other critique that England failed to tighten the game up at key moments]

Sadly, this is quite good.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/1gpg9m3/king_charles_reveal_meme/

Paul Grayson was a really good player and coach and now is an excellent pundit. His analysis of games is usually spot on to what most think and it's a pity he's not involved with England. BBC podcast post match well worth a listen. Subtle criticism of Borthwick in there I reckon.