Ireland vs New Zealand 8th November

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Ireland (15-1):

Hugo Keenan, Mack Hansen, Garry Ringrose, Bundee Aki, James Lowe, Jack Crowley, Jamison Gibson-Park, Caelan Doris (capt), Josh van der Flier, Tadhg Beirne, James Ryan, Joe McCarthy, Finlay Bealham, Ronan Kelleher, Andrew Porter.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Cian Healy, Tom O'Toole, Iain Henderson, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Ciaran Frawley, Jamie Osborne.

New Zealand (1-15)

1. Tamaiti Williams, 2. Asafo Aumua, 3. Tyrel Lomax, 4. Scott Barrett (Captain), 5. Tupou Vaa’i, 6. Wallace Sititi, 7. Sam Cane, 8. Ardie Savea (Vice-Captain), 9. Cortez Ratima, 10. Damian McKenzie, 11. Caleb Clarke, 12. Jordie Barrett (Vice-Captain), 13. Rieko Ioane, 14. Mark Tele’a, 15. Will Jordan

Replacements: 16. George Bell, 17. Ofa Tu’ungafasi, 18. Pasilio Tosi, 19. Patrick Tuipulotu, 20. Samipeni Finau, 21. Cam Roigard, 22. Anton Lienert-Brown, 23. Stephen Perofeta

I said it before but I don’t see the worth in having Healy, O’Mahony and to an extent Murray on the bench for Ireland. I get that they’re useful squad options for their provincial teams though.

mikey_dragon wrote:I said it before but I don’t see the worth in having Healy, O’Mahony and to an extent Murray on the bench for Ireland. I get that they’re useful squad options for their provincial teams though.

I would tend to agree. Great players but past their best at international level.

I think there are a number of signs Ireland, as a whole, have passed and some players are significantly past their best

POM, Murray, Healy, Henderson and Henshaw  should not be part of the set up
I'd say Ryan, Furlong, Aki days are also numbered.

Ahearn and McCann should be part of the set up, maybe Sheridan, as we look for a new generation of forwards.

Having said all that some positions are simply devoid of the required class in replacements
I thought the play from 10 very poor on Friday. Crowley was poor, Frawley was a horror shaw.
As a friend quipped 'We replace a fly half who cant kick, with a fly half who cant pass'
We are a million miles from replacing Sexton and all eggs are in the Prendergast basket.

Prop is, if anything worse after Furlong and Porter who is good enough - anybody ??
Bealham is a decent number 2 but otherwise who is coming through ?
Wilson shows some promise at Ulster but he is years away.

Scrum half is also a big worry - who is coming through to replace JGP. Casey the only young player around and he is some way off being anywhere near as good as JGP

At centre smaller worries but Henshaw, Aki and McCloskey our top 12s are all the wrong side of 30.
Osbourne and, possibly Postlewaite, are key.

Hopefully someone can enlighten me on promising players coming through the non Ulster provinces I've missed.

Overall though I fear:
- - -

We are a million miles from replacing Sexton and all eggs are in the Prendergast basket.

Whats happened to Ross Byrne? or Harry Byrne?

Do you want Healy back?

TJ wrote:

We are a million miles from replacing Sexton and all eggs are in the Prendergast basket.

Whats happened to Ross Byrne?  or Harry Byrne?

Do you want Healy back?  

All three nowhere near good enough

Ross was never more than adequate at international level, reliable at best.
Harry has all the attributes to be a great 10, size, pace, great passing range, big boot, but unfortunately can't seem to control a game and all to often forces it. Maybe he should have moved somewhere and got more regular game time to help, but it seems he's happy to be a bit part player, as it looks like Frawley prendergast and Tector are now ahead of them both

Ross makes ROG look like Carlos Spencer and while Harry seems to have the attributes I don't think he has the balls and is made of glass too.
As for Healy, he makes Ross look like ROG.
Very slim pickings at 10 for Ireland. But I do think Crowley and Frawley will do ok.

Crowley needs to improve his kicking markedly.
Frawley just had a mare but I doubt he will ever get the time he needs to become a proficient 10, at International level,
especially when Prendergast is consider ready in the eyes of Cullen.

Personally I doubt either will ever be a 10 good enough for a country aspiring to remain in the top 4 of World rugby.

Well all hopes pinned on Murphy then. Let's hope he's the one

Crowley wasn't great as we've become used to but that could be said about the majority of the team.

Ross and Harry Byrne will be lucky to get much gametime at all this season with Frawley needing as much as possible and Prendergast being the second coming of Sexton. Harry Byrne in particular may get used to ironing kit and carrying water. I can't imaging why on earth they stayed at Leinster when they wouldn't be short of offers and gametime surely is what a rugby player wants.

Prendergast has elements of his game that definitely look very promising but he has a way to go before he can pull on that green 10 shirt and does not need rushed. Promise doesn't always manifest into undeniable talent but with the grace in which he's held he'd better produce the goods.

I've never seen Frawley have such a nightmare, fingers crossed it was just a blip like most of the squad were having.

P.S. Perhaps it's a bit early but the ravings from Leinster about Casper Gabriel might overshadow even Prendergast.


The Coaching staff shouldn't be exempt from critisism. POC does what exactly? Farrell choosing that bench, I though he was infallible, or infazzible.

Jack Crowley is only 24, he could easily kick on again.

What was more perplexing as a neutral was how toothless Ireland were up front. Seemed to be a real lack of intensity, particularly from the bench and that limited the ability of the side to play at a high enough tempo to threaten the ABs. Farrell seems to be trying to stick to his established squad, presumably with the idea of blooding a raft of new players next summer whilst he's away with the Lions. Not sure it's working for him though.

My team for Argentina

Porter, Kelleher, (???)
- talk that Furlong, Bealham and O'Toole will be unavailable and that Clarkson parachuted in - someone else to be on the bench as well.
McCarthy, Beirne
Baird, Doris, de Flier
JPG, Frawley (only if Farrell knows he will be first choice 10 at Leinster, otherwise Crowley)
Stockdale, Osbourne, Ringrose, Lowe, Keenan
Bench: Healy (no one else in the squad), Herring, ???, Izzy, Timoney/Prendergast, Casey, Crowley/Frawley, McCloskey

McCloskey is ok as Osbourne can go to 15 and Keenan can go out wide.
I have not been impressed by Hansen this year at all.

I have restricted my thought to the squad available - with the exception of TH

formerly known as Sam wrote: Jack Crowley is only 24, he could easily kick on again.

.

Kick on     , I be happy if he could just kick at the standard required  

formerly known as Sam wrote: Seemed to be a real lack of intensity, particularly from the bench .

As I mentioned before the game when you have a bunch of pensioners on the bench what do you expect - Healy, Henderson, POM

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jack Crowley is only 24, he could easily kick on again.

What was more perplexing as a neutral was how toothless Ireland were up front. Seemed to be a real lack of intensity, particularly from the bench and that limited the ability of the side to play at a high enough tempo to threaten the ABs. Farrell seems to be trying to stick to his established squad, presumably with the idea of blooding a raft of new players next summer whilst he's away with the Lions. Not sure it's working for him though.

The tempo wasn't great but sufficient to go into the lead early in the 2nd half. When Frawley, Herring, O'Toole and Henderson came on at 58 mins we were still in the lead. O'Toole was knocked out within 2 mins, Herring has played 0 mins this season, Henderson has to carry his zimmer frame with him and Frawley was about to have a nightmare of a performance. Bealham was knackered and was soon pemalised with a not so crystal clear penalty but not surprising seeing as he'd already given his all. on 65 mins Henderson drops his zimmer and gives a penalty so now, already it's 13-18, not insurmountable. Jordan scores, 13-23 & the rest of the zimmer frame brigade are brought in to have no effect on the game and bring nothing to the party. THE END!
Ordinarily, if that bench had been stronger the replacements would have been on earlier and brought a lot of energy but with Farrells selection there was no cavalry to bring on.

If you ever watch Squidgerugby on Youtube, it usually does a sharp critique of England tactics, or lack of, but a recent episode has been on the Irish set up.
The basic conclusion from their analysis was that Ireland haven't replaced the brains trust of Lancaster, Sexton and to a lesser extent Catt. The result being more of a percentage based defensive mind set to the Test side. The jury was out on whether the current strategic game has left the Irish approach behind with key players ageing quickly and it was felt there would be a better evidence after the 6N. This would suggest that other 6N teams are leading the charge to a different approach on the game, which seems a little unlikely but the inference was that ageing players are unlikely to evolve and in some key positions the next generation has not yet appeared.

Pete330v2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jack Crowley is only 24, he could easily kick on again.

What was more perplexing as a neutral was how toothless Ireland were up front. Seemed to be a real lack of intensity, particularly from the bench and that limited the ability of the side to play at a high enough tempo to threaten the ABs. Farrell seems to be trying to stick to his established squad, presumably with the idea of blooding a raft of new players next summer whilst he's away with the Lions. Not sure it's working for him though.

The tempo wasn't great but sufficient to go into the lead early in the 2nd half. When Frawley, Herring, O'Toole and Henderson came on at 58 mins we were still in the lead. O'Toole was knocked out within 2 mins, Herring has played 0 mins this season, Henderson has to carry his zimmer frame with him and Frawley was about to have a nightmare of a performance. Bealham was knackered and was soon pemalised with a not so crystal clear penalty but not surprising seeing as he'd already given his all. on 65 mins Henderson drops his zimmer and gives a penalty so now, already it's 13-18, not insurmountable. Jordan scores, 13-23 & the rest of the zimmer frame brigade are brought in to have no effect on the game and bring nothing to the party. THE END!
Ordinarily, if that bench had been stronger the replacements would have been on earlier and brought a lot of energy but with Farrells selection there was no cavalry to bring on.

Going into the lead when playing Vs 14. The ABs lacking their big inside centre didn't have a key defensive element to help stop the Irish momentum. At no point did the Irish attack really spark into life and look like the normal unstoppable juggernaut. There's the normal feeling that the opposition defence is holding on as Ireland go through the phases. I didn't get that feeling on Friday night.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jack Crowley is only 24, he could easily kick on again.

What was more perplexing as a neutral was how toothless Ireland were up front. Seemed to be a real lack of intensity, particularly from the bench and that limited the ability of the side to play at a high enough tempo to threaten the ABs. Farrell seems to be trying to stick to his established squad, presumably with the idea of blooding a raft of new players next summer whilst he's away with the Lions. Not sure it's working for him though.

The tempo wasn't great but sufficient to go into the lead early in the 2nd half. When Frawley, Herring, O'Toole and Henderson came on at 58 mins we were still in the lead. O'Toole was knocked out within 2 mins, Herring has played 0 mins this season, Henderson has to carry his zimmer frame with him and Frawley was about to have a nightmare of a performance. Bealham was knackered and was soon pemalised with a not so crystal clear penalty but not surprising seeing as he'd already given his all. on 65 mins Henderson drops his zimmer and gives a penalty so now, already it's 13-18, not insurmountable. Jordan scores, 13-23 & the rest of the zimmer frame brigade are brought in to have no effect on the game and bring nothing to the party. THE END!
Ordinarily, if that bench had been stronger the replacements would have been on earlier and brought a lot of energy but with Farrells selection there was no cavalry to bring on.

Going into the lead when playing Vs 14. The ABs lacking their big inside centre didn't have a key defensive element to help stop the Irish momentum. At no point did the Irish attack really spark into life and look like the normal unstoppable juggernaut. There's the normal feeling that the opposition defence is holding on as Ireland go through the phases. I didn't get that feeling on Friday night.

Top teams can deal with being down to 14 men better than ever before and even without Ireland scoring the try they were still very much in touch at 6-9. After getting the lead it took a dubious penalty against Bealham who after giving his 100% had to come back onto the field in order for the ABs to regain the impetus.

There were a few things that just didn't go right for Ireland but too much is being made of a loss to the ABs IMO. Yes the bench was rubbish and from all acccounts, sadly we're going to see the pensioners rolled out again who are of no use as far as impact goes. I do think the side are going though multiple mini transitions with both players and gameplan. The old guard has to go though, we're well enough stocked with talent for those player to begin getting the experience (front row not withstanding). Frawley had a crap game, he doesn't usually but he was a large factor in the malfunctions of the last half hour. He'll kick on with better performances without doubt.

It's hard right now to think the future's bright but it's no where near as dark as some may think. We lost against the All Blacks, yes the All Blacks. In our previous match we beat SA in SA. Previous to that we won the 6N, back to back, so nearly back to back Grand Slams. One loss due to being a little bit off the pace is hardly Ireland being in a slump...not yet.