The St George's flag

I recall all too well as a teenager the England 1966 WC victory over West Germany at Wembley.

It was a less complicated time then. But I don't recall seeing more than a tiny smattering of St George's flags. It was the Union 'Jack' that then prevailed.

And now it's all about local nationality. And the English are no longer exempt.

It's a sad reflection of our times that we've become so symbolistically nationalistic whilst politically and economically we become increasingly intertwined.

England flies own flag shocker!

If England are playing why shouldn't they use their own flag? Not quite sure what you're getting at here Portnoys to be honest. In the Commonwealth games, England are represented by the flag of St George, not the Union Jack, I don't quite get why sports such as football should be different.

The reason we have become intertwined is prior to the second world war everyone was nationalistic and to an extent racist, after 60 million dead most of Europe agreed to merge together to avoid a repeat of it, as if there is another European war it will be the last one because there won't be anyone left at the end of it!
Letting people with different skin colours and religons into this country is a good thing, the problem is when you let in so many that it puts a strain on our resources and drags our country down. Especially since using Labours statistics in the last goverment 98% of jobs created in Britain went to someone who isn't British, and 25% of people under 21 cant get a job!

I think the English have always been very proud of their history and the world they have helped create, the Union Jack represents something greater than the St Georges flag. I've never met an English person who is ashamed of their country so what does it matter which fly they choose to fly? The Welsh have also been fairly happy to fly the Union Jack also even though we aren't represented on it! It's the Scots and Irish who tend to be more insular.

The good thing about the Union is that it's constituent parts all have their own seperate identities, customs and histories. Our flags are an integral part of this. England has always suppressed it's identity to it's own detriment.

I admire the Celtic nations in the union for their independence and sheer will that they will not forget their own past. Where is ours? Lost in sea of beige mediocrity. Let us at least have our flag eh Portnoy?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the SGF, dreamer. What has changed is the separateness of the nations' supporters has diverged whilst the collectedness of the political drive has gone the other way.

Portnoy, I remember being surprised when I saw the Union flag rather than the cross of St George at Wembley in 1966 (on replays, I mean).

As for me, I'm proud to be Welsh and I'm proud to be British.

Carpe Diem wrote:I admire the Celtic nations in the union for their independence and sheer will that they will not forget their own past. Where is ours? Lost in sea of beige mediocrity. Let us at least have our flag eh Portnoy?

The English haven't forgotten anything!
It's true that successive Goverment's have tried to turn you into Europeans but I've yet to meet an Englishman who isn't as proud as any Celt!
England's only real problem is they try to bend over backwards to try not to offend anyone, but my partners family has a large Pakistani element and they all regard themselves as English and don't want anything special done for them or their religion. The problem is England has learned to listen to the loud minority and they assume that's what the majority wants too. When all most people want is to be happy and lead productive lives.

Portnoy, I think England need to start being more nationalistic and proud of themselves. Fly your flag and celebrate your traditions, I find it so strange that the English don't seem to do this.

How has the political drive gone the other way btw? Wales has just voted for more powers for itself, taking that away from the central government etc (although perhaps this topic itself shouldn't be discussed on the rugby boards)

We've become more and more politically distant surely? England is the only country that doesn't have a devolved government. Scotland is due to have a referendum on the issue of independence within the next five years for goodness sake.

AlynDavies wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:I admire the Celtic nations in the union for their independence and sheer will that they will not forget their own past. Where is ours? Lost in sea of beige mediocrity. Let us at least have our flag eh Portnoy?

The English haven't forgotten anything!
It's true that successive Goverment's have tried to turn you into Europeans but I've yet to meet an Englishman who isn't as proud as any Celt!
England's only real problem is they try to bend over backwards to try not to offend anyone, but my partners family has a large Pakistani element and they all regard themselves as English and don't want anything special done for them or their religion. The problem is England has learned to listen to the loud minority and they assume that's what the majority wants too. When all most people want is to be happy and lead productive lives.

What you say is absolutely correct Alyn, it was more the watering down of English culture by successive governments i was reffering to as opposed to any Englishman forgetting his past.

In 2003 i was told to take down my St George's flag that i had in my living room window during the World cup by an over zealous policeman. He was concerned that it may offend the Indian families that were livng in the area at the time. What he failed to notice was that said families were sitting in my living room celebrating the World Cup win with me and about 40 other residents!

It's that kind of pointless over sensitvity that irks me.

Dreamer,

No. The last thing that the English is it be is more nationalistic. They are already proud enough.

The problem lies in xenophobia.

It's sad that you connect English nationalism with xenophobia. The United Kingdom won't exist forever- then what will the English do?

Right, not sure I agree with that Portnoys. At Uni, I lived with 5 English girls, they couldn't even tell me when St George's day was! They had no traditional celebrations like we have in Wales, they didn't know any English songs like Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory etc. Seriously they didn't know ANY of this.

They were English but it was like there was nothing behind it. It made me really sad to see that. As a Welsh person I think I've been blessed to have been exposed to all the traditions/songs etc as I was growing up, it really gives me a sense of what it's like to be Welsh. When I asked what it was like to be English, what was unique about it, they couldn't give me an answer really. I found it all very strange, I think the English need to go back to celebrating being English (or well maybe I'm wrong and they do already, I just have never really seen it).

Notch wrote:It's sad that you connect English nationalism with xenophobia. The United Kingdom won't exist forever- then what will the English do?

re-conquer Ireland, Scotland and Calais, and tell the Welsh they'd be better of rejoining the Uk, as they will have the same rights as an Englishman and more money like they did last time!

FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Notch, You get me all wrong.

The UK - like any other political coalition - won't last ad infinitum.

But "It's sad that you connect English nationalism with xenophobia. The United Kingdom won't exist forever- then what will the English do?"

The terrible thing is that inclusiveness breeds entrenchment.

What is being English? I think its got very lost and I always associate British and English as one and the same really.

Portnoy wrote:The terrible thing is that inclusiveness breeds entrenchment.

What exactly do you mean by that? I'm not sure I understand.

AlynDavies wrote:I think the English have always been very proud of their history and the world they have helped create

Typical English arrogance... everyone knows it was the big bang and resultant gravitational forces which created the world.

rugbydreamer wrote:Right, not sure I agree with that Portnoys. At Uni, I lived with 5 English girls, they couldn't even tell me when St George's day was! They had no traditional celebrations like we have in Wales, they didn't know any English songs like Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory etc. Seriously they didn't know ANY of this.

They were English but it was like there was nothing behind it. It made me really sad to see that. As a Welsh person I think I've been blessed to have been exposed to all the traditions/songs etc as I was growing up, it really gives me a sense of what it's like to be Welsh. When I asked what it was like to be English, what was unique about it, they couldn't give me an answer really. I found it all very strange, I think the English need to go back to celebrating being English (or well maybe I'm wrong and they do already, I just have never really seen it).

There isn't anything unique about it. I'm proud to be English but I don't think England is better than anywhere else (other than the obvious war-zones, etc). I'm interested in history especially of the British isles. Do I know the words to Jerusulem, etc? No. Do I celebrate St. George's day? No. Would I wave the flag? No (Union flag nor St. George's Cross). Does any of this make me more or less English? No, of course it doesn't. I'm English because I'm from England. That's it. I see flag waving and special days as an attept to hang onto a constructed identity so you can say you're different. It's important in countries like USA because they're pretty much all decended from recent immigrants and need something to hold them together. even then they go way too far IMO.

Bear in mind my wife is Welsh, has welsh flags on her car (small stickers on the window), a welsh flag mouse mat, bursts into the national anthem when we cross the border (I kid you not) etc.

I just don't see the point.

Roddersm, he's Welsh

roddersm wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:I think the English have always been very proud of their history and the world they have helped create

Typical English arrogance... everyone knows it was the big bang and resultant gravitational forces which created the world.

It's kind of sad that Thunor, for me. To each their own.

Has the idea of what being British is become more blurry over time? As a term becomes more inclusive it becomes less easy to identify with. At least this is my experience from living in the USA.

I went out with an American and lived there a time and when i asked him why it was that everyone i met identified strongly with their national background, and not with just being American, his response was "because it doesn't mean anything!" What he meant was American is such an inclusive term now, it can mean anyone with any beliefs from any background, with any culture, from any part of the world who has been in the country for any length of time. (This is i'm sure an improvement from meaning white, protestant, middle class and shorthaired) But this is just too vague to give a sense of identity. It's about as specific as saying "i'm human". The old identity still is treasured for it's ideals about democracy and standing up for freedom but any other idea of what being American means seems to be down to personal choice.

People mostly seem to need to identify with a group and feel a sense of belonging/identity. And to feel pride in it too. But if everyone else can also be part of that group it loses meaning or the power to unite and provide that belonging/pride. I think.

I never lived in England and have no idea what has changed there or not regarding the idea of Britishness. This is just a guess.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Roddersm, he's Welsh

Sorry Thunor...in that case....typical Welshman, blame the English for everything...

The Americans are weird. In Ghana I was chatting to a guy from Boston who told me he was Irish but had never been outside USA before. To me the notion was crazy. It made sense to him. He felt more Irish than "American".

Notch wrote:

Portnoy wrote:The terrible thing is that inclusiveness breeds entrenchment.

What exactly do you mean by that? I'm not sure I understand.

Sorry Notch,

What I meant to say (in shorthand) is that inclusiveness ultimately results in resentment in some quarters. And that has its consequences in extremism.

Which is why I raised my post. It was a lot healthier in 1966 when the flag was the union one.

Intotouch wrote:I went out with an American and lived there a time and when i asked him why it was that everyone i met identified strongly with their national background, and not with just being American, his response was "because it doesn't mean anything!" What he meant was American is such an inclusive term now, it can mean anyone with any beliefs from any background, with any culture, from any part of the world who has been in the country for any length of time. (This is i'm sure an improvement from meaning white, protestant, middle class and shorthaired) But this is just too vague to give a sense of identity. It's about as specific as saying "i'm human".

Wouldn't a lot of problems be solved if we focussed on the fact that we're all human?

The English have been dominant in the Union, many people outside the UK do not see the difference between English and British. This has been my experience with people from North/South America and Asia.

Problem at the moment with the minority Right wing EDL nut jobs keep hijacking the St George flag, which is a shame. Time for English people to claim it back

BridgendBoyo wrote:The English have been dominant in the Union, many people outside the UK do not see the difference between English and British. This has been my experience with people from North/South America and Asia.

Problem at the moment with the minority Right wing EDL nut jobs keep hijacking the St George flag, which is a shame. Time for English people to claim it back

Precisely not. Englishness is being staid. No sloppy upper lips.

Accept pretty much everything as 'yep. sorry. I'm responsible'.

I think English is cooler than Dutch.

Has anyone on this forum actually travelled beyond their homeland? *Sarcasm*

I'm originally from Wales, but have lived in Derbyshire for almost 8 years, and can say with conviction that it is foolish to consider your fellow man any less pure, nationalistic, or patriotic if he doesn't conform to more traditional examples of showing said nationality.

To consider one less-so for those very reasons is the epitome of ignorance, parochialism and outright obtuseness.

One man might consider flying a flag as his means to pay homeage to his homeland. Another, might engage himself in lesser popular ritual; another might simply read about his heritage. Does this make them less nationalist? No.

The biggest miconception of the images we saw in 1966 was that England [and Britain] had become far more socially unified (arguably through veils of political propaganda) after the War era. Also, being ''unified'' was far more politically availing than separatist nationalist pride during that period of history! Hence the Union Jack had more than just a nationalist impression to most people, it implied something to them too.

As an Englishman who now lives in Glasgow I think this whole issue becomes very blurred!

The Scots are proud of being Scottish and like to fly the Saltire. Rangers fans will fly Union Jacks and so that now can have a political tie to it (in the same way that the Irish flag is flown by the Celtic supporters and the St Georges Cross is flown by EDL nut jobs in England).

Having lived up here (and not even for long) I already get annoyed when people say England instead of Britain and vice versa. Scotland is completely different in many ways and is very nearly independent.

The problem with the whole nationalistic thing is that it is inherently exclusive, that is you are saying to others I am this and you are not. As time goes by I find myself feeling less and less "patriotic", and probably the only thing that keeps me saying I am English and/or British is the sports teams I follow.

Britain is a great country, we're good at many things, but we're fairly bad for others too (same for England, Scotland, Wales and NI) so although I am English and therefore support England and I am British and will support Britain, I don't feel that this country is any better than any other so I don't feel the need to shout about where I'm from. I think the previous comment about Americans is starting to become true here i.e. there are so many different people in Britain (and especially England) that it is no longer that defining to say you are English/British. Plus, if you go abroad then most people's views of the English are pretty low anyway (thanks Costa del Inglaterra!)

Sorry for the rambling, it's quite hard to put how I feel about it in words!

screamingaddabs wrote:As an Englishman who now lives in Glasgow I think this whole issue becomes very blurred!

The Scots are proud of being Scottish and like to fly the Saltire. Rangers fans will fly Union Jacks and so that now can have a political tie to it (in the same way that the Irish flag is flown by the Celtic supporters and the St Georges Cross is flown by EDL nut jobs in England).

Having lived up here (and not even for long) I already get annoyed when people say England instead of Britain and vice versa. Scotland is completely different in many ways and is very nearly independent.

The problem with the whole nationalistic thing is that it is inherently exclusive, that is you are saying to others I am this and you are not. As time goes by I find myself feeling less and less "patriotic", and probably the only thing that keeps me saying I am English and/or British is the sports teams I follow.

Britain is a great country, we're good at many things, but we're fairly bad for others too (same for England, Scotland, Wales and NI) so although I am English and therefore support England and I am British and will support Britain, I don't feel that this country is any better than any other so I don't feel the need to shout about where I'm from. I think the previous comment about Americans is starting to become true here i.e. there are so many different people in Britain (and especially England) that it is no longer that defining to say you are English/British. Plus, if you go abroad then most people's views of the English are pretty low anyway (thanks Costa del Inglaterra!)

Sorry for the rambling, it's quite hard to put how I feel about it in words!

Get it off your chest man

Cheers Barry!

I just meant I'm not eloquent enough to explain it really!

I suppose (to stick to the point) the English should fly the flag of England, Scotland the Saltire, Wales the Dragon and Ireland both Eire and NI flags really. None of them represent all of the UK so the Union Jack should be kept for the lions (with the Eire flag). Simples.

red_stag wrote:The Americans are weird. In Ghana I was chatting to a guy from Boston who told me he was Irish but had never been outside USA before. To me the notion was crazy. It made sense to him. He felt more Irish than "American".

To us it's weird because we grow up with a definite idea of where we're from and what our nationality is. If anyone can be American then this gives no feeling of belonging/unity/identity. Until i went to the US i had no idea that people needed this or why. If you always have a firm sense of who you are of course you take it for granted. But it seems to be a necessity for most people. To feel like they belong to a group, somewhere and that they share traits with these people. If being raised by Irish people and descended from Irish people means this man feels Irish who are we to argue?

I don't know that a lot of problems in the world would be solved if people identified with being human and needed nothing else/ no national identity. A feeling of belonging gives security. It's when it becomes relative to other nationalities in a negative way that problems start.

It's then when that national identity is defined as superior to another that it causes suffering or war. It's possible to feel proud of who your people are without feeling hate or contempt for other nationalities. But take away the meaning from a nationality or the right to express it and then more extreme nationalism/religious cults fill the void. (I think)

One reason that i read that the Catholic religion gained so much influence in Ireland was because it had been repressed by the British and signified a difference to Britain and being British. It came to mean being Irish therefore at a certain point so people became devoted to it that they never were before the country was conquered. And yes i am comparing Catholicism to a weird extremist cult.

Wait till the alien invasion begins then we'll all be human. ENSLAVED HUMANS!!! MWAH HAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry.

Intotouch, not saying we should argue just it was so strange for me to see someone with an affiliation to a place he had never been.

Carpe Diem wrote:Wait till the alien invasion begins then we'll all be human. ENSLAVED HUMANS!!! MWAH HAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry.

They're already among us

red_stag wrote:The Americans are weird. In Ghana I was chatting to a guy from Boston who told me he was Irish but had never been outside USA before. To me the notion was crazy. It made sense to him. He felt more Irish than "American".

I wouldn't worry about that, he's just an idiot.

greybeard wrote:

red_stag wrote:The Americans are weird. In Ghana I was chatting to a guy from Boston who told me he was Irish but had never been outside USA before. To me the notion was crazy. It made sense to him. He felt more Irish than "American".

I wouldn't worry about that, he's just an idiot.

Is he though? I know Munsty (MBTGOG) was born in England and lived there until aged 8. He always felt Irish and still does despite living in England now.

rugbydreamer wrote:Right, not sure I agree with that Portnoys. At Uni, I lived with 5 English girls, they couldn't even tell me when St George's day was! They had no traditional celebrations like we have in Wales, they didn't know any English songs like Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory etc. Seriously they didn't know ANY of this.

They were English but it was like there was nothing behind it. It made me really sad to see that. As a Welsh person I think I've been blessed to have been exposed to all the traditions/songs etc as I was growing up, it really gives me a sense of what it's like to be Welsh. When I asked what it was like to be English, what was unique about it, they couldn't give me an answer really. I found it all very strange, I think the English need to go back to celebrating being English (or well maybe I'm wrong and they do already, I just have never really seen it).

I really don't see how waving flags, singing songs and wearing national costume/symbols makes you any more proud or aware of your nationality.

You could say having to do all these things shows an insecurity and a need to keep up appearances. I'm not saying that's necessarily true but it's the other side of the coin.

I know I'm English and I'm proud of it, but I don't have to parade it.

BridgendBoyo wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Wait till the alien invasion begins then we'll all be human. ENSLAVED HUMANS!!! MWAH HAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry.

They're already among us

Amen brother!

red_stag wrote:

greybeard wrote:

red_stag wrote:The Americans are weird. In Ghana I was chatting to a guy from Boston who told me he was Irish but had never been outside USA before. To me the notion was crazy. It made sense to him. He felt more Irish than "American".

I wouldn't worry about that, he's just an idiot.

Is he though? I know Munsty (MBTGOG) was born in England and lived there until aged 8. He always felt Irish and still does despite living in England now.

I've met Americans who told me they were Irish and their great-grandparents were from a place called "County". The American way is to tell people you are what your ancestors are, not what you are.

Put a guy from Boston in a small Irish village and if he can go a day without complaining there's no starbucks and no one wants to talk baseball then he might stand a chance of claiming he's Irish.

SafeAsMilk, should I assume you're a Beefheart fan?

red_stag wrote:

greybeard wrote:

red_stag wrote:The Americans are weird. In Ghana I was chatting to a guy from Boston who told me he was Irish but had never been outside USA before. To me the notion was crazy. It made sense to him. He felt more Irish than "American".

I wouldn't worry about that, he's just an idiot.

Is he though? I know Munsty (MBTGOG) was born in England and lived there until aged 8. He always felt Irish and still does despite living in England now.

You mean to tell us that an 8 year old could define the ''feeling'' of nationality? The only thing an 8 year old defines are the influences and impressions of their environment. Unless well educated on the matter, they percieve ''belonging'' merely through association, not because they ''feel'' it.

Are 'Americans' who think they're 'Irish' any less 'Irish' than 'Irish' who think they're 'Irish'?

SafeAsMilk wrote:Are 'Americans' who think they're 'Irish' any less 'Irish' than 'Irish' who think they're 'Irish'?

Thats the million dollar question

SafeAsMilk wrote:Are 'Americans' who think they're 'Irish' any less 'Irish' than 'Irish' who think they're 'Irish'?

If they go around chanting "We're No. 1! We're No. 1" and "U-S-A! U-S-A!" followed by "Hi, I'm Irish" then... yeah.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Right, not sure I agree with that Portnoys. At Uni, I lived with 5 English girls, they couldn't even tell me when St George's day was! They had no traditional celebrations like we have in Wales, they didn't know any English songs like Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory etc. Seriously they didn't know ANY of this.

They were English but it was like there was nothing behind it. It made me really sad to see that. As a Welsh person I think I've been blessed to have been exposed to all the traditions/songs etc as I was growing up, it really gives me a sense of what it's like to be Welsh. When I asked what it was like to be English, what was unique about it, they couldn't give me an answer really. I found it all very strange, I think the English need to go back to celebrating being English (or well maybe I'm wrong and they do already, I just have never really seen it).

I really don't see how waving flags, singing songs and wearing national costume/symbols makes you any more proud or aware of your nationality.

You could say having to do all these things shows an insecurity and a need to keep up appearances. I'm not saying that's necessarily true but it's the other side of the coin.

I know I'm English and I'm proud of it, but I don't have to parade it.

I'm not saying it should be paraded. I don't go about waving a Welsh flag all the time but I know that at certain times of the year that I love to celebrate where I am from and all the old traditions we have, I feel it sort of helps to define where I'm from, then again that might just be me. I just find it hard that nearly all the English people I've come across (and half of my family is English) that they don't really have any old traditions, or have something that is uniquely English. I dunno, tis just a different culture I guess, I just find it a bit baffling.

SafeAsMilk wrote:Are 'Americans' who think they're 'Irish' any less 'Irish' than 'Irish' who think they're 'Irish'?

I don't know, ask the 'Irish'

SafeAsMilk wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Right, not sure I agree with that Portnoys. At Uni, I lived with 5 English girls, they couldn't even tell me when St George's day was! They had no traditional celebrations like we have in Wales, they didn't know any English songs like Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory etc. Seriously they didn't know ANY of this.

They were English but it was like there was nothing behind it. It made me really sad to see that. As a Welsh person I think I've been blessed to have been exposed to all the traditions/songs etc as I was growing up, it really gives me a sense of what it's like to be Welsh. When I asked what it was like to be English, what was unique about it, they couldn't give me an answer really. I found it all very strange, I think the English need to go back to celebrating being English (or well maybe I'm wrong and they do already, I just have never really seen it).

I really don't see how waving flags, singing songs and wearing national costume/symbols makes you any more proud or aware of your nationality.

You could say having to do all these things shows an insecurity and a need to keep up appearances. I'm not saying that's necessarily true but it's the other side of the coin.

I know I'm English and I'm proud of it, but I don't have to parade it.

This is the way of things in Northern Ireland; the community with no real national identity to draw on drapes itself in flags and quite literally 'parades' it. They are very insecure over their national identity and there is a void at the heart of who they think they are.

The community with a very sure sense of who they are and where they come from have little in the way of equivalents to this.

I recommend this book on the matter; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ulsters-Uncertain-Defenders-Political-Paramilitary/dp/0904651983

I also found that when living abroad in my life I've become much more nostalgic and vociferous about my own national identity, when not surrounded by it. This is a common phenomenon. Scottish and Welsh nationalistic fervour will subside when they are their own, independent nations because there will be no need for them to actively assert their own cultural identity within the context of the United Kingdom; there will be no danger of that culture being swallowed up or dominated by the larger nation state. It won't need to be reinforced.

I don’t want to sound like a Trotskyite here, but is the British/English thing and the perceived lack of nationalist pride in the English not all to do with how the English were represented in the media. I’m not talking about the tabloids here, I’m talking more about how the ‘English’ were represented in films and books back in the 19th and up to the mid 20th Century. The Scots/Irish/Welsh were allowed to be Scots/Irish/Welsh (although there was some horrendous type casting) however the English were either Cockneys or Kenneth More clones (perhaps an bit of typecasting here as well)?

So why did that happen? I reckon that this was because of the class structure we had (and still have, although it’s now more of a glass ceiling than a big spike topped wall). Those that ran Great Britain plc were of a certain class of people, and it didn’t matter if you were born in England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales and were of the privileged class you would end up sounding all the same, thinking the same and having the same values, as you all had attended the same few elitist schools and were destined to slot into jobs all over what was then the British Empire. These people gave up their nationality to serve something bigger, they became British, and because these were the people in power, it became fashionable to emulate them, so becoming ‘British’ became something desirable. And where did these people retire to – the ‘Home Counties’ (the name says it all) so you have a big bunch of influential well heeled ‘British’ people, speaking with a certain accent, all congregated together in the SE of England, and in many ways still dominating the Government as that type of power is self perpetuating. The film industry and the ‘national’ newspapers were either owned or run by this group, so the propaganda (although that’s a bit harsh for what I mean) that washed over us was – You are not English, you are British. Especially if you consider that some of these well modulated influential British people were in fact of recent Scots/Irish/Welsh extraction - that Gaelic Tribe the Kensington Scots springs to mind - and didn’t like the idea of Englishness, so would have welcomed that Tartan Blanket that the British can lay claim to. I wonder how much the ethnic background of the Royals had a say in this, obviously they couldn’t claim to be English – they only ditched their Germanic family name Saxe-Coburg Gotha, in WW1 but they could lay claim to be British.

Personally I suspect that the more removed you are from authority (in miles and in influence) the more ‘English’ you become. No Union Flags in our household, I’m too near the Scottish border. I’m Northern English first and foremost.

By the way, nothing against Kenneth More, who I think adds tone to any movie he appears in or the Southern English (who have to put up with these British).