The St George's flag

rugbydreamer wrote:
I'm not saying it should be paraded. I don't go about waving a Welsh flag all the time but I know that at certain times of the year that I love to celebrate where I am from and all the old traditions we have, I feel it sort of helps to define where I'm from, then again that might just be me. I just find it hard that nearly all the English people I've come across (and half of my family is English) that they don't really have any old traditions, or have something that is uniquely English. I dunno, tis just a different culture I guess, I just find it a bit baffling.

SafeAsMilk wrote:I really don't see how waving flags, singing songs and wearing national costume/symbols makes you any more proud or aware of your nationality.

You could say having to do all these things shows an insecurity and a need to keep up appearances. I'm not saying that's necessarily true but it's the other side of the coin.

Barry John III wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:
I'm not saying it should be paraded. I don't go about waving a Welsh flag all the time but I know that at certain times of the year that I love to celebrate where I am from and all the old traditions we have, I feel it sort of helps to define where I'm from, then again that might just be me. I just find it hard that nearly all the English people I've come across (and half of my family is English) that they don't really have any old traditions, or have something that is uniquely English. I dunno, tis just a different culture I guess, I just find it a bit baffling.

What? Nearlly all the English people you've come across? How many is that, exactly?

roddersm wrote:Nationalism is an outdated concept and a sign of insecurity and the only positive reason to preserve it in the 21st century is so we can play each other at various sports and then wind each other up on internet forums.

Notch wrote:

roddersm wrote:Nationalism is an outdated concept and a sign of insecurity and the only positive reason to preserve it in the 21st century is so we can play each other at various sports and then wind each other up on internet forums.

So it's a very, very good thing then

rugbydreamer wrote:
sigh. yeah I know, I'm generalising right? I can only speak from my own personal experiences though. Sorry about that.

Barry John III wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:
sigh. yeah I know, I'm generalising right? I can only speak from my own personal experiences though. Sorry about that.

You need one of these too:

rugbydreamer wrote:
aye possibly. How bout one of these instead?

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

red_stag wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

That's my point. Why are they seen as such but others got diluted away

screamingaddabs wrote:You can see this in the way that various AREAS of England have seperate culture, e.g. Geordie, Yorkshire, Cornish, Lancastrian etc etc. Perhaps it has something to do with the size of a nation?

screamingaddabs wrote:-Wearing suits I guess would be one.

-The Scots, Welsh and Irish have their native language, the native language of the English is of course English

-I would say that many "English" traditions were taken on in Wales, Scotland and Ireland too and are now seen as British traditions, and it is hard to say if they are British or English (such as drinking black tea with milk.)

I suppose we do still have English Ale, though again this is more British.

Some aspects of table manners (like "don't lick your knife").

I must admit it is pretty hard to think of them, but that could well be BECAUSE they are not thought of as English any more.

When a culture becomes less dominant (as happened to the celtic cultures) people keep their culture alive (as one poster pointed out earlier I think). English has always been fairly dominant for hundreds of years and so the culture has waned.

You can see this in the way that various AREAS of England have seperate culture, e.g. Geordie, Yorkshire, Cornish, Lancastrian etc etc. Perhaps it has something to do with the size of a nation?

roddersm wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:-Wearing suits I guess would be one.

-The Scots, Welsh and Irish have their native language, the native language of the English is of course English

-I would say that many "English" traditions were taken on in Wales, Scotland and Ireland too and are now seen as British traditions, and it is hard to say if they are British or English (such as drinking black tea with milk.)

I suppose we do still have English Ale, though again this is more British.

Some aspects of table manners (like "don't lick your knife").

I must admit it is pretty hard to think of them, but that could well be BECAUSE they are not thought of as English any more.

When a culture becomes less dominant (as happened to the celtic cultures) people keep their culture alive (as one poster pointed out earlier I think). English has always been fairly dominant for hundreds of years and so the culture has waned.

You can see this in the way that various AREAS of England have seperate culture, e.g. Geordie, Yorkshire, Cornish, Lancastrian etc etc. Perhaps it has something to do with the size of a nation?

I think you'll find that very little of what you have mentioned actually originated in England or was invented by the English hence it is not seen as such.

For example the English language is germanic and has it's roots in mainland Europe. Tea drinking originated in the far east and the dutch were the 1st to drink tea with milk.

Do you really think the English invented table manners and formal dress?

roddersm wrote:For example the English language is germanic and has it's roots in mainland Europe

roddersm wrote:Thats true. At the end of the day a flag is just a piece of cloth with a pattern or bit of colours on it.

Some people feel the need to identify with something be it a religon, flag, anthem etc. Nationalism and the resulting symbols are just something invented by goverments or rulers to keep their subjects in check.

The reality is that we're all just a bunch of highly evolved primates occupying whatever habitable land mass, of which is seperated with imaginary/man made borders for political and economic purposes, there is on a big rock orbiting a massive ball of hydrogen in an incomprehensibly huge and still expanding universe( the laws of which we don't even fully understand).

Nationalism is an outdated concept and a sign of insecurity and the only positive reason to preserve it in the 21st century is so we can play each other at various sports and then wind each other up on internet forums.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

That's my point. Why are they seen as such but others got diluted away

Why does Whiskey always taste the same whilst whisky has a magnificent variety of beautiful complexities?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

That's my point. Why are they seen as such but others got diluted away

Why does Whiskey always taste the same whilst whisky has a magnificent variety of beautiful complexities?

Staggy, you know that I'll be quoting that back at you regularly, right?!

red_stag wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

Thats my point. Why are they seen as such but others got diluted away

HammerofThunor wrote:

roddersm wrote:For example the English language is germanic and has it's roots in mainland Europe

All languages come from some original protolanguage so that's a silly point isn't it? The English that is spoken world wide was developed in England. It would be like suggesting no country can claim to have invented the bicycle because the wheel was invented somewhere else.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

roddersm wrote:For example the English language is germanic and has it's roots in mainland Europe

All languages come from some original protolanguage so that's a silly point isn't it? The English that is spoken world wide was developed in England. It would be like suggesting no country can claim to have invented the bicycle because the wheel was invented somewhere else.

Gaelic is a pure language which originated in Ireland and spread from there to Scotland and the Isle of Man.

snoopster wrote:

red_stag wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

Thats my point. Why are they seen as such but others got diluted away

The English were usually the majority, so English customs were just the customs while the Irish, Scots etc were minorities (historically the Irish were amongst the lowest of the low in America so No one non-Irish wanted to identify with their customs and many of the Irish were desperate to get away from that identification) - it kept Irish (or whatever) customs as clearly unique from the surrounding culture.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

roddersm wrote:For example the English language is germanic and has it's roots in mainland Europe

All languages come from some original protolanguage so that's a silly point isn't it? The English that is spoken world wide was developed in England. It would be like suggesting no country can claim to have invented the bicycle because the wheel was invented somewhere else.

Gaelic is a pure language which originated in Ireland and spread from there to Scotland and the Isle of Man.

So when they originally moved there they couldn't speak any language? Are you sure they didn't return there after the last ice age with some form of proto-language already in place? Which Irish developed from in relative isolation?

Notch wrote:Maybe in more rural, undeveloped parts of the country- the majority of the country- everyone spoke Irish until the 1840s but I doubt if you took a time machine back to Dublin or Belfast at that time you'd be able to get by without English.

snoopster wrote:I think it had more to do with being Roman Catholic or not being of the Protestant faith than anything else. All the strong, identifiable ethnic groups in the states are catholic (Italians, Hispanics, Irish, Chinese). The Irish and the Italians would have wanted to bring their children up as catholics, so they had to sort out their own schools, churches etc.

The reason why Ireland has such a strong cultural heritage is because the British Empire (which Ireland was part of at the time) tried to wipe out its culture by passing laws banning the language etc. Up to the famine in the 1840s, everyone in Ireland spoke Irish. Within 50 years the language was dead and there was a concerted effort to revive it (and gaelic sports like hurling). Since emigration was the only option available, it was necessary to be able to speak English.

Portnoy wrote:There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the SGF, dreamer. What has changed is the separateness of the nations' supporters has diverged whilst the collectedness of the political drive has gone the other way.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Yes, but they are still seen as "Irish" traditions.

That's my point. Why are they seen as such but others got diluted away

Why does Whiskey always taste the same whilst whisky has a magnificent variety of beautiful complexities?

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Maybe in more rural, undeveloped parts of the country- the majority of the country- everyone spoke Irish until the 1840s but I doubt if you took a time machine back to Dublin or Belfast at that time you'd be able to get by without English.

The population of the island of Ireland coming into the Famine was 8 million, most of whom lived in the countryside. A high proportion of those who lived in Belfast & 'The Pale' would have spoken English, no doubt about that.


EDIT: Ulster Scots would also have been spoken in Ulster.

snoopster wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think it had more to do with being Roman Catholic or not being of the Protestant faith than anything else. All the strong, identifiable ethnic groups in the states are catholic (Italians, Hispanics, Irish, Chinese). The Irish and the Italians would have wanted to bring their children up as catholics, so they had to sort out their own schools, churches etc.

The reason why Ireland has such a strong cultural heritage is because the British Empire (which Ireland was part of at the time) tried to wipe out its culture by passing laws banning the language etc. Up to the famine in the 1840s, everyone in Ireland spoke Irish. Within 50 years the language was dead and there was a concerted effort to revive it (and gaelic sports like hurling). Since emigration was the only option available, it was necessary to be able to speak English.

We're talking about different things - I was thinking in terms of why the Irish traditions remained Irish rather than becoming American, as English traditions became American.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Maybe in more rural, undeveloped parts of the country- the majority of the country- everyone spoke Irish until the 1840s but I doubt if you took a time machine back to Dublin or Belfast at that time you'd be able to get by without English.

The population of the island of Ireland coming into the Famine was 8 million, most of whom lived in the countryside. A high proportion of those who lived in Belfast & 'The Pale' would have spoken English, no doubt about that.


EDIT: Ulster Scots would also have been spoken in Ulster.

No doubt. The debate as to whether or not that is a language or a dialect rages on! It's a version of Scots really, specific to Ulster the same way the version of Irish spoken in the North is specific to Ulster.

Donegal is the most interesting part of Ireland, linguistically. At one point English would have been third behind Ulster Irish and Ulster Scots.

AlynDavies wrote:
The Welsh have also been fairly happy to fly the Union Jack also even though we aren't represented on it! It's the Scots and Irish who tend to be more insular.

Sin é wrote:

snoopster wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think it had more to do with being Roman Catholic or not being of the Protestant faith than anything else. All the strong, identifiable ethnic groups in the states are catholic (Italians, Hispanics, Irish, Chinese). The Irish and the Italians would have wanted to bring their children up as catholics, so they had to sort out their own schools, churches etc.

The reason why Ireland has such a strong cultural heritage is because the British Empire (which Ireland was part of at the time) tried to wipe out its culture by passing laws banning the language etc. Up to the famine in the 1840s, everyone in Ireland spoke Irish. Within 50 years the language was dead and there was a concerted effort to revive it (and gaelic sports like hurling). Since emigration was the only option available, it was necessary to be able to speak English.

We're talking about different things - I was thinking in terms of why the Irish traditions remained Irish rather than becoming American, as English traditions became American.

The founding fathers of the USA fled England for religious freedom (Mayflower). The USA was (& is) culturally protestant, so the (Irish) catholics would have stuck together, set up their own schools etc., because the state schools were all protestant in ethos. A lot of their socialising revolves around the various churches/mosques/synagogues as well. The big deal about Kennedy becoming president was that he was catholic, not Irish.

The Italians seem to have equally close ties with their own homeland - i.e., food, music, mafia etc., the same for the Jewish Community there. As to why English tradition became American rather than remaining English, they were the ones who rebelled against the crown and ejected the British from the US.

Sin é wrote:
As far as I know, Ulster Scots is an English dialect (most of the Scottish settlers would have come from the lowland/border area - I really shouldn't be lecturing you on this !).

Notch wrote:Scots is a lowland/border language. That doesn't make 'em English. Try going to the Scottish side of the Borders and asking them how English they are

HammerofThunor wrote:One of the Scottish 'languages' is an English (as in the language) dialect rather than a separate language. Then again one of my granddad's mates spoke with a thick Stoke/North Staffs dialect and I could hardly understand what he was saying. It's real the English dialects are dying out. My Granddad could speak it and my dad knows bits but few people speak it properly these days. It's a lot closer to Old English with a lot of words closer to Anglo-Saxon roots

snoopster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

snoopster wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think it had more to do with being Roman Catholic or not being of the Protestant faith than anything else. All the strong, identifiable ethnic groups in the states are catholic (Italians, Hispanics, Irish, Chinese). The Irish and the Italians would have wanted to bring their children up as catholics, so they had to sort out their own schools, churches etc.

The reason why Ireland has such a strong cultural heritage is because the British Empire (which Ireland was part of at the time) tried to wipe out its culture by passing laws banning the language etc. Up to the famine in the 1840s, everyone in Ireland spoke Irish. Within 50 years the language was dead and there was a concerted effort to revive it (and gaelic sports like hurling). Since emigration was the only option available, it was necessary to be able to speak English.

We're talking about different things - I was thinking in terms of why the Irish traditions remained Irish rather than becoming American, as English traditions became American.

The founding fathers of the USA fled England for religious freedom (Mayflower). The USA was (& is) culturally protestant, so the (Irish) catholics would have stuck together, set up their own schools etc., because the state schools were all protestant in ethos. A lot of their socialising revolves around the various churches/mosques/synagogues as well. The big deal about Kennedy becoming president was that he was catholic, not Irish.

The Italians seem to have equally close ties with their own homeland - i.e., food, music, mafia etc., the same for the Jewish Community there. As to why English tradition became American rather than remaining English, they were the ones who rebelled against the crown and ejected the British from the US.

We're still talking about two different things - mostly. I'm not sure what you mean with your last sentence - the reason English culture became American culture is because the majority of those who were in America at the time they rebelled were English and so they simply retained their culture (is that what you are saying?)

snoopster wrote:What I mean is that they were happy to cut the relationship with England and it was made even easier by the fact that the founding fathers were persecuted in the first place back in England. Protestants merged together (some were decended from northern European stock as well - think of prominent American families like the Roosevelts, Vanderbilts), were the governing classes.