The St George's flag

First topic message reminder :

I recall all too well as a teenager the England 1966 WC victory over West Germany at Wembley.

It was a less complicated time then. But I don't recall seeing more than a tiny smattering of St George's flags. It was the Union 'Jack' that then prevailed.

And now it's all about local nationality. And the English are no longer exempt.

It's a sad reflection of our times that we've become so symbolistically nationalistic whilst politically and economically we become increasingly intertwined.

Intotouch wrote:Do English people not have this issue?

It is incumbent on your average Englishman to say sorry for whatever misdemeanours they may or may not have committed.

It doesn't matter if we did or didn't do stuff - we have accumulated a mountain of rudey poo.

The thing about the English is that they say 'sorry guv' it was me* that dunnit.

*me = at least two generations back

That's what separates the English from the Brits.

I always thought the phrase went...

"Sorry, but..."

HammerofThunor wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Do English people not have this issue?

Do I have a problem with an official document having the official name of my nation on it? No, not really. I think on the recent census there was a bit where you put your nationality and it had British, English, Welsh, etc as options.

So is the op right do you think? Or does waving the St George's flag signify no difference at all?

Your comment sounded like nothing is different for you than the England fans of the 1960's that the op talks about.

I'm not the sort to wave flags at all so I don't know. I'm English, I've always thought of myself as English. On a larger scale I'm also British and a European. On a smaller scale I'm a Potter and a 'Northerner-ish'.

I suppose I'd have to ask my dad if anything is changed. I know my Grandma thinks of herself as English and British (possibly doesn't differentiate).

English nationalism is a necessity now. The UK is slowly breaking apart. NI, Scotland and Wales have their own devolved assemblies with legislative powers. The English are at a disadvantage.

The West Lothian question can only be answered with a federal UK or the break-up of the UK and the sooner English people realise this, the better it will be for them.

This wave of nationalism is not something that can be stopped once unleashed, only slowed.

We no longer define ourselves as British but Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or Irish. And we ask for national self-determination.

Notch, I know I am probably getting too deep into this, but the scenario you are predicting is an unmitigated disaster. And I can see it happening, too.

I truly believe that despite our national (and Principality) differences, we are far stronger together, than as smaller, weaker entities. The way the world is evolving, we will need all our cumulative strengths. It ain't getting better.

This is the country I served, and still serve occasionally as requested, the United Kingdom. But as I have said before, perhaps I am not able to change with the times. I can see how you could just be right, but I hope not.

I don't think Britain as an identity will ever change, but devolution has thankfully finally come.

Sorry Doc. For me, I don't want to live in a country where I never have the opportunity to vote for the party who will form the government. I have no say. They make the laws in Westminster, voted on by English/Scottish/Welsh MPs, applied in Ireland. Northern Ireland's voice is a small and insignificant one.

I'll never get the chance to vote Conservative, Labour or Lib Dem even if he I wanted to- or vote against them. They don't put up candidates over here. I will never get the chance to vote on the Government of the day.

The saving grace is our devolved institutions. We can moderate what happens in our country rather than have it dictated in the capital of another. But the powers don't go far enough- devolution must continue.

Isn't democracy just the masses oppressing the minority?

nganboy,
If so, whats your alternative?

Notch, I get you, and I'm sorry too. Frankly, you raise a point I never considered. Unfortunately, its a damn good one. And a damn shame.

I don't want to sound maudlin, but I have to have hope. As I said before, separating makes us all weaker, at a time when we need the opposite. Look at how the world is changing. Quickly. The balance of power is shifting to unreliable countries with little regard for people. Parts of Europe are becoming economically unstable which will effect us all. I believe this is the time to stick together, but your concerns can't be ignored either.

Sorry for my little soapbox. As I have said before I have served the country and other causes in a number of places not a nice as ours. Almost always in a medical capacity. And served proudly with English, Scotts, Welsh, Irish (NI and the Republic), Aussies, Kiwis, Americans, Canadians and more. Only important question was do we have the back of the guys with us. We need a little of that spirit now.

Sorry all. That was a bit much for a Rugby board. Sometimes I need to take my medication and chill................

Notch wrote:The West Lothian question can only be answered with a federal UK or the break-up of the UK and the sooner English people realise this, the better it will be for them.

Do you think the 'English' are desperate to hold on to the UK? Every English person I know want an English parliament and would look forward to independence (rightly or wrongly). I don't know the economic realities of it but more money is spent on public services in Wales and Scotland and I doubt more taxes come from them. I had read that the taxes generated by the oil balanced the additional money paid into Scotland. If Wales went independent then I presume the combined forces training centre would move to England (could Wales maintain an Armed service or would the huge number of soldiers gain foreign employment in England?), along with the DVLA. These would be two massive job boosts to England and I live in one of the poorest areas for unemployment, etc. There is certainly a general feel we would be better off (again I don't think this is based on any detailed investigation of the effects).

It's the Scottish and Welsh who need to vote on independence not us. All that would change for me is that my passport would become English (and suffer whatever economic fallout occurs).

Notch wrote:English nationalism is a necessity now. The UK is slowly breaking apart. NI, Scotland and Wales have their own devolved assemblies with legislative powers. The English are at a disadvantage.

Notch I'm not sure I agree with that. The legislative powers of each devolved assembly are limited and ultimately national issues are still controlled at Westminister. As the English make up most of Westminister then I don't see how they can be disdvantaged.

I don't see any indication that devolution will signal the break up of the Union. On the contrary devolution in some ways makes it more attractive for Scotland, Wales and NI to remain part of Britain as it gives them the best of both Worlds i.e. the financial security of tax revenue distribution from a larger economy combined with limited powers of self determination over local issues. They are limited though as they have no revenue raising or tax varying powers but have the security of a block grant to work with.

I'm not sure England get such a raw deal either over the Union. Much is made of the spending per capita in England vs the devolved countries but the reality is the wealth generated in London and the south east subsidises the rest of England as well as Wales, Scotland and NI. In most economies the richer parts subsidise the poorer areas so why should Britain be different?

A break up of the Union would significantly weaken Englands(Britains) military capabilities and reduce its strength and influence in Europe. England has also benefitted economically from the Welsh mines and the Scottish North sea oil and NI was of key stragegic importantance during WW2. I'm not arguing for the Union one way or another but it is inaccurate to suggest that the benefits of maintaining the Union are all one way.

Portnoy I'm not sure exactly what you think the average English person has to keep apologising for (except maybe Martin Johnston making Mary Robinson walk across the grass)?

In the spirit of seeing whether full independance is workable for the parts of the UK - here are a few populations sizes (from wiki) of the European countries closest to us.

Belgium 11,007,020
Denmark 5,564,219
England 51,446,000
France 63,136,180
Germany 81,799,600
Iceland 318,452
Italy 60,642,308
N. Ireland 1,789,000
Netherlands 16,680,500
Norway 4,970,300
Portugal 10,555,853
Republic of Ireland 4,581,269
Scotland 5,222,100
Sweden 9,354,462
Wales 3,006,400

Now population size does not equate with viability as a nation, but if Iceland can manage with under 400,000 it bodes well for Wales & Northern Ireland.

Tyneside/Teeside and Wearside have a combined population of 1,545,319 - mebbes we can go for home rule!

Of course, for this to work, we would really have to buy into YooRope, and you would have to decide whether it was more acceptable to follow laws cast in Brussels or Westminster, I don't think the smaller parts of the UK could go it totally alone.

TrailApe wrote:
Now population size does not equate with viability as a nation, but if Iceland can manage with under 400,000 it bodes well for Wales & Northern Ireland.

Hmm not a great example is it? Aren't Iceland bankrupt after the collapse of their banking system?

TrailApe wrote:
Now population size does not equate with viability as a nation, but if Iceland can manage with under 400,000 it bodes well for Wales & Northern Ireland.

With its volcanic ash clouds Iceland can bring European airspace to a standstill. Now, that's bargaining power

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:The West Lothian question can only be answered with a federal UK or the break-up of the UK and the sooner English people realise this, the better it will be for them.

Do you think the 'English' are desperate to hold on to the UK? Every English person I know want an English parliament and would look forward to independence (rightly or wrongly). I don't know the economic realities of it but more money is spent on public services in Wales and Scotland and I doubt more taxes come from them. I had read that the taxes generated by the oil balanced the additional money paid into Scotland. If Wales went independent then I presume the combined forces training centre would move to England (could Wales maintain an Armed service or would the huge number of soldiers gain foreign employment in England?), along with the DVLA. These would be two massive job boosts to England and I live in one of the poorest areas for unemployment, etc. There is certainly a general feel we would be better off (again I don't think this is based on any detailed investigation of the effects).

It's the Scottish and Welsh who need to vote on independence not us. All that would change for me is that my passport would become English (and suffer whatever economic fallout occurs).

The last people to invade Wales were the english and you never beat us despite the erection of castles When the Welsh soldiers come home, you could have a Polish Batallion

Wales has never been attacked by anyone during the past 40 or so years of terrorism.

I believe when Wales decided to go FREE on prescription charges a few years back it was the english trying to get registered with Welsh GP's!! Funny innit!!

As for the DVLA you would start your own wouldn't you? You would also find your own water, we can then drain the resevoir that destroyed an entire community for the sake of keeping the scousers in H2O.

YMA O HYD

DAL DY DIR

CYMRU AM BYTH

Actually, the last people to invade Wales were the French, but don't let facts bother you.

[quote="roddersm"]

Notch wrote:
Portnoy I'm not sure exactly what you think the average English person has to keep apologising for (except maybe Martin Johnston making Mary Robinson walk across the grass)?

The list of ills perpetrated under the name of 'England' is endless. From potato famines to the highland clearances and from slavery to the Hamburg and Dresden war crimes.

That's a matter of fronting up.

One of my loveliest memories is staying in an island called Cape Clear off the SW tip of Ireland in 1974. The area had suffered from the hard heel of the Black and Tans but I got nothing but warm welcomes.

Martin Johnston making Mary Robinson walk across the grass. I'll tell you what. I applaud any action that debunks faux snobbery. If a pair of wellies is good enough for Princess Anne at Murrayfield, then Mrs Robinson shouldn't be too sensitive [cue music from The Graduate].

But I digress.

What I think the reason for the rise of the St George's flag is a Newtonian reaction. Because every other quarter of the UK invested themselves with symbols of nationality, that gave the English the need to do the same.

Portnoy wrote:
The list of ills perpetrated under the name of 'England' is endless. From potato famines to the highland clearances and from slavery to the Hamburg and Dresden war crimes.

That's a matter of fronting up.

Yes but when exactly have you been asked to apologise for any of this? As you've said you were given a warm welcome in Ireland.

If you have an underlying feeling of guilt then for actions carried out by your country in the past then that is for you to deal with.

If an English person wants to wave a flag be it the Union or st George then I don't see the problem but personally I think it is a sign of insecurity anyway. Outside of sporting tournaments or certain special occaisions I don't see why someone feels the need to walk around wearing their National colours all the time.

It makes me laugh when you see people going on holiday wearing their England/Wales/ NI etc. jerseys. I just don't see the need to bombard people with your national identity all the time and if someone is interested in where you are from then they'll ask.

Personally I prefer to be judged as an individual and not based on where I am from.

Luckless

Actually they were norsemen who'd first invaded France and then a couple of generations later invaded England, Wales and Scotland so get your facts right!

The sad thing about the Highland clearances was that it wasn't the English. It was our own people that did it.

Ha, if I was talking about the Normans you'd be right, but I was talking about the (attempted) French invasion in Pembrokeshire in the eighteenth century.

mckay1402 wrote:
Actually they were norsemen who'd first invaded France and then a couple of generations later invaded England, Wales and Scotland so get your facts right!

It was also them who led the invasion of Ireland.

Those damn Scandinavians, everything is their fault!

roddersm wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
The list of ills perpetrated under the name of 'England' is endless. From potato famines to the highland clearances and from slavery to the Hamburg and Dresden war crimes.

That's a matter of fronting up.

Yes but when exactly have you been asked to apologise for any of this? As you've said you were given a warm welcome in Ireland.

If you have an underlying feeling of guilt then for actions carried out by your country in the past then that is for you to deal with.

If an English person wants to wave a flag be it the Union or st George then I don't see the problem but personally I think it is a sign of insecurity anyway. Outside of sporting tournaments or certain special occaisions I don't see why someone feels the need to walk around wearing their National colours all the time.

It makes me laugh when you see people going on holiday wearing their England/Wales/ NI etc. jerseys. I just don't see the need to bombard people with your national identity all the time and if someone is interested in where you are from then they'll ask.

Personally I prefer to be judged as an individual and not based on where I am from.

Could not agree more!

Aw applause for the great fist of censorship. Sad very sad indeed.

roddersm wrote:

Yes but when exactly have you been asked to apologise for any of this? As you've said you were given a warm welcome in Ireland.

If you have an underlying feeling of guilt then for actions carried out by your country in the past then that is for you to deal with.
...

Personally I prefer to be judged as an individual and not based on where I am from.

So many of England's atrocities occurred generations before I was born. And even the ones I have been present in are nowt to do with me personally like Iraq, Afghanistan, Tunisia. But I can't but help feeling guilty because it's being done in my name.

You as an Irishman must equally admit that terrible atrocities have occurred on all sides. Not only in the war of independence, but in the internecine 'troubles'.

Whatever happens, fronting up and apologising is essential to repair past damage.

Plus not celebrating ancient victories.

I doubt if more than a tiny minority of the English understand the true significance of Guy Fawkes night. But 99.9% would not relate it to a Catholic/Protestant barney.

welshjohn369 wrote:Aw applause for the great fist of censorship. Sad very sad indeed.

What are you talking about?

Is it just me or are we seeing the shoots of the Welsh v English nonsense that ruined 606. Why not get discussing rugby instead of this shoite.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Ha, if I was talking about the Normans you'd be right, but I was talking about the (attempted) French invasion in Pembrokeshire in the eighteenth century.

Dammit, you got me!

[quote="Portnoy"]

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:
Portnoy I'm not sure exactly what you think the average English person has to keep apologising for (except maybe Martin Johnston making Mary Robinson walk across the grass)?

The list of ills perpetrated under the name of 'England' is endless. From potato famines to the highland clearances and from slavery to the Hamburg and Dresden war crimes.

That's a matter of fronting up.

One of my loveliest memories is staying in an island called Cape Clear off the SW tip of Ireland in 1974. The area had suffered from the hard heel of the Black and Tans but I got nothing but warm welcomes.

Martin Johnston making Mary Robinson walk across the grass. I'll tell you what. I applaud any action that debunks faux snobbery. If a pair of wellies is good enough for Princess Anne at Murrayfield, then Mrs Robinson shouldn't be too sensitive [cue music from The Graduate].

But I digress.

What I think the reason for the rise of the St George's flag is a Newtonian reaction. Because every other quarter of the UK invested themselves with symbols of nationality, that gave the English the need to do the same.

In fairness to Mrs McAleese (not Robinson), she didn't create a fuss about where she had to walk and I don't think she was really offended by it. Just people thought that Martin was a bit ignorant - much like the criticism that Ronan O'Gara had for having his hands in his pocket when meeting the Queen (though, unlike Martin Johnson, O'Gara wasn't representing his country on that occasion).

Just on the apologising for being English - you can't get away from the fact that The British Empire had a huge effect on many people's lives/countries/history and generally, from their point of view, it wasn't for the best!

I think the Queen put it really well when she visited Ireland when she said:

"With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all."

Thats enough - leave it at that.

red_stag wrote:Is it just me or are we seeing the shoots of the Welsh v English nonsense that ruined 606. Why not get discussing rugby instead of this shoite.

It was a fine discussion about the concept of nationality in general. Not rugby related but as a member of the pub I'm surprised that's such an issue for you. It's only recently turned a bit nasty.

HammerofThunor wrote:

red_stag wrote:Is it just me or are we seeing the shoots of the Welsh v English nonsense that ruined 606. Why not get discussing rugby instead of this shoite.

It was a fine discussion about the concept of nationality in general. Not rugby related but as a member of the pub I'm surprised that's such an issue for you. It's only recently turned a bit nasty.

Hammer the off topic thing I have no problem with. But as you yourself admit it has turned nasty and thats the problem. Another thread was locked earlier for the same kind of thing. Also I'm kinda referring to the board in general not just this thread. I don't see why things need to turn as nasty as they do with the Welsh and English.

Port,
You are right when you say most people don't understand the significance of Guy Fawkes night. Case in point. In the town where I lived for quite a while, the fireworks were held at the local Catholic Church. No effigy, of course, but they had great fireworks. So, does that mean ignorance? Or a moving on from the past? I prefer the latter. At least that what the priest said.

I was raised with only two grandparents. The other two died in WW2, one in the camps, the other fighting with General Wingate in Malaysia. I was raised to be proudly British. Still am. Which is why as a doctor, I still chose to serve, and still do time in suport of the armed forces or charities in remote places. I have fought with, treated, and seen people die, some right in front of me, serving the UK. To paint our country as somehaow bad is a dis-service to these people.

I would also suggest care with using the word atrocity too much, though. Afganistan was/is not an atrocity, except as to how our own people have been armed, supplied missioned. Prior to 2001, Afganistan was run by religious Nazis who were brutal to their own Afgan peoples in ways the British Empire could never imagine, and trianed others to export their twisted beliefs. I am not sure it is winnable, or ever was. And may be a phenominal mistake. But atrocity, no.

Sin é wrote:
In fairness to Mrs McAleese (not Robinson), she didn't create a fuss about where she had to walk and I don't think she was really offended by it. Just people thought that Martin was a bit ignorant - much like the criticism that Ronan O'Gara had for having his hands in his pocket when meeting the Queen (though, unlike Martin Johnson, O'Gara wasn't representing his country on that occasion).

Just on the apologising for being English - you can't get away from the fact that The British Empire had a huge effect on many people's lives/countries/history and generally, from their point of view, it wasn't for the best!

Apologies to all Irish posters out there, I did of course mean McAleese. I was joking though.

O'Gara was representing his country what are you talking about? Anyway who cares about that?

I think to say "generally" that the effect that the british had "wasnt for the best" is a bit unfair. It's certainly a gross generalisation.

It would be interesting if the Moderators could give some sort of indication of what has over stepped the mark. Not sure if that would be possible or feasible.

rugbydreamer wrote:There's mostly good debate on this thread with a fair bit of humour thrown in. Please let's try and keep it this way otherwise we'll have no option but to lock this thread. Thanks.

I think you might be overreacting a bit here. There was only one post bordering on being provocative. I've seen far nastier debates about the Irish back row selection!

Rugbydreamer.
This is a great discussion. Only a couple of people might be taking this off into negative territory. Even someone planting seeds of the English-Welsh dissention is wrong, as it is individuals who might be straying too far. I'd request some latitude here on your part. Some points are not easy nor comfortable, even for a crusty retread like me.

Sooner or later we will all get back to carping about my hooker is better than your hooker or my grandmother can beat up your grandmother. For now, let's let it go. But you are certainly right to keep one eye open.

Guys, I think the mods have said it hasn't over stepped the mark yet.

As for my comment it was actually aimed at another thread like this about national soverignty that descended into fairly nasty stuff. Got them muddled up.

red_stag wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

red_stag wrote:Is it just me or are we seeing the shoots of the Welsh v English nonsense that ruined 606. Why not get discussing rugby instead of this shoite.

It was a fine discussion about the concept of nationality in general. Not rugby related but as a member of the pub I'm surprised that's such an issue for you. It's only recently turned a bit nasty.

Hammer the off topic thing I have no problem with. But as you yourself admit it has turned nasty and thats the problem. Another thread was locked earlier for the same kind of thing. Also I'm kinda referring to the board in general not just this thread. I don't see why things need to turn as nasty as they do with the Welsh and English.

Posts/Threads like these are always going to stir passions and ruffle feathers. Thats what an internet forum is for, to objectivley view posts and opinions that you disagree with, digest the information and see things in a differant light.

The Moderators here do a great job in keeping people in line, warning when appropriate and locking when neccessary. What gives 606v2 an advantage over 606 is the fact that the moderators here are also posters and know the style of posting and character of individuals on the boards. They will know when a thread has gone too far and will lock it accordingly.

Let's leave the decisions up to them and contune debates like these because I see them as important talking points that we can discuss among ourselves. But we all have a responsibility to respect other peoples opinions and views, even if they are not the same as our own.

Thats what living in a free country is all about.

Cool Radge, as I said it was actually meant for a very similar thread not this one. I'll say no more about it

Staggy I'm not having a go! I'm just saying this sort of stuff is bound get people riled for differant reasons, but thats what makes the discussion interesting!

Thunor, generally if we're posting in-thread it's as a warning that we think things are getting a bit too heated, and we're letting people know we're reading before they say something really nasty in the heat of the moment.

If posts have gone past the point of being acceptable, we'll delete and send PMs, or edit out the nasty bits with a comment saying we've done so.

IMO, banter/debate about non-rugby or peripheral stuff is great on the board. If people are getting heated with each other about stuff that isn't strictly rugby it's not good for the forum, and I'll say something on-thread in an attempt to get people to re-engage their brains as opposed to posting on emotion.

Otherwise, the site rules apply https://www.606v2.com/t1019-site-rules

EDIT Or, what Dreamer said much more succintly than I've just managed

Pete, I'm jealous of your 'Kiwireddevil' emoticon combo - pls can I have the 'Breaveheart' one that AlynDavies found? Ta

doctor_grey wrote:Port,
You are right when you say most people don't understand the significance of Guy Fawkes night. Case in point. In the town where I lived for quite a while, the fireworks were held at the local Catholic Church. No effigy, of course, but they had great fireworks. So, does that mean ignorance? Or a moving on from the past? I prefer the latter. At least that what the priest said.

I was raised with only two grandparents. The other two died in WW2, one in the camps, the other fighting with General Wingate in Malaysia. I was raised to be proudly British. Still am. Which is why as a doctor, I still chose to serve, and still do time in suport of the armed forces or charities in remote places. I have fought with, treated, and seen people die, some right in front of me, serving the UK. To paint our country as somehaow bad is a dis-service to these people.

I would also suggest care with using the word atrocity too much, though. Afganistan was/is not an atrocity, except as to how our own people have been armed, supplied and others to export their twisted beliefs. I am not sure it is winnable, or ever was. And may be a phenominal mistake. But atrocity, no.

I think Christmas is the interesting one. Started as a midwinter festival to call back the sun. Then tied to Mithras who was 'worshiped' by roman soldiers and was born on 25th December. Then Christainity jumped on board. But to me it means none of these things now. To me it's a time to spend with my family, a lot of whom I don't get to see much apart from Christmas. we all tend to get together round my nan's. The group is getting bigger as people get married, have kids, etc. That's what Christmas is about to me.

Bonfire night is just an excuss to go out and have a party in the middle of Autumn with have a big fire (deep down we all love a nice big fire). Not so much interested in fireworks anymore.

The point is all these things mean different things to different people.

I've read a quote somewhere that went along these lines "Traditions are for these people to stupid or too lazy to think for themselves". A bit harsh maybe but basically true in my opinion. Tradiations that serve no purpose shouldn't be followed. That purpse doesn't need to be solid, it may be a bonding experience within a family or nation, etc. but there needs to be something. I don't agree with doing something just because it alsways been done.

Moderators, cheers for the response. I was looking back through and couldn't see much bad stuff on this one. Heated as Radge said but not really nasty.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Oooh Er Missus. A formal emoticon! When's Top Cat going to be included n the library?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Pete, I'm jealous of your 'Kiwireddevil' emoticon combo - pls can I have the 'Breaveheart' one that AlynDavies found? Ta

As, I'm planning on adding it, it may just be this evening before I get a chance (messing about with smilies at work isn't good when someone looks over your shoulder).

I may need to work on that Kiwi one too, possibly too much yellow (even though smilies are "supposed" to be that colour)

Edit - Portnoy, once I've found a Top Cat pic and successfully shrunk it small enough to work as an emoticon. And at work that's tricky

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Pete, I'm jealous of your 'Kiwireddevil' emoticon combo

I'm just disturbed by it - it looks like the Red Devil is whipping the Kiwi... and I'm worried it might be a clue to knowing far more about Kiwireddevil than I want to know.