606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: HOOKERS

Morning all.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court

This article relates to the choice of Hooker for the RWC, 3 must be taken and the options are:

Best- Good scrummager, can be poor in lineout, one of the only "donkeys" in the pack, a team leader also. Can give away penalties.
Cronin- Great in the loose, lineouts can be quite shakey also, primarily a ball carrier, good impact sub.
Varley- Tough player, has had a mixed bag since taking over for Flannery, good scrummager but can be poor in the lineout.
Flannery- Has been out of action for some time. Best lineout thrower in Ireland. Aggressive ball carrier. Experienced.

NB: It was said yesterday (can't find link), that Flannery should be available for the warm up games and that they have found the problem with his injuries

Flannery,best and Cronin for me. The best options we have. If Flannery can prove his fitness and form in the warm up games he could well start. Rory has been doing a good job so far so would have no problems with him playing.

I preferred the other article

greybeard wrote:I preferred the other article

I am such a tool sometimes

Yeah I went for Best, Flannery and Cronin in that order too.

I think we need Best to start with the backrow we have.

To be honest the three that should be selected here will be straight forward. the only way varley is going is if one of the other 3 are injured.

The main debate will be who should start.
At the moment i'm for best

Well Caoimhin who should start?

I think Best has to start really so our pack will be balanced, although the thought of our lineout improving (and it would substantially with Flannery) is so tempting. Think with Flannery in the squad Cronin may have to resign himself to third in the pecking order.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well Caoimhin who should start?

I think Best has to start really so our pack will be balanced, although the thought of our lineout improving (and it would substantially with Flannery) is so tempting. Think with Flannery in the squad Cronin may have to resign himself to third in the pecking order.

I've gone for best too. (check out the last line in my last comment)

in relation to the lineout we may see it improving with players training with each other over an extended period of time. The continuity my resemble that of a club side with the class of international players.

i agree with you on flannery too. think if fit he will be on the bench

I've gone for Best, Cronin and Varley.

I don't believe Flannery will be fit and I don't think he's anywhere near is good as some are making out anyway.

I'd rather have Flannery throwing into the big lineouts but I don't think he contributes anywhere near as much around the park as Best and can't provide the impact of the bench that Cronin can.

If he proves himself fit enough to last 80min than I'd probably bring him as 3rd choice hooker but Best and Cronin would be my two match day hookers.

If Flannery is fit he travels in place of Varley who is a good provincial lad but hasn't got it for the top level. Agree though Cronin and Best are match day hookers for me.

caoimhincentre wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well Caoimhin who should start?

I think Best has to start really so our pack will be balanced, although the thought of our lineout improving (and it would substantially with Flannery) is so tempting. Think with Flannery in the squad Cronin may have to resign himself to third in the pecking order.

I've gone for best too. (check out the last line in my last comment)

in relation to the lineout we may see it improving with players training with each other over an extended period of time. The continuity my resemble that of a club side with the class of international players.

i agree with you on flannery too. think if fit he will be on the bench

Apologies.
Yeah that is a good point actually. In particular the lifter/jumper relationship may improve also. Over the past decade the pack has generally been made up of Munstermen and thus our lineout was a well oiled machine, now with Leinster and Ulster lads involved in the starting 8 now may be a chance to get the lads together and work out how exactly everyone likes to operate in the lineout.

Flannery however is still undoubtedly a better lineout thrower.

At the moment,it has to be Best who starts. Flannery is a very good second choice and if Best is struggling he is the ideal man to come in. His fitness and form is the main issue.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well Caoimhin who should start?

I think Best has to start really so our pack will be balanced, although the thought of our lineout improving (and it would substantially with Flannery) is so tempting. Think with Flannery in the squad Cronin may have to resign himself to third in the pecking order.

I've gone for best too. (check out the last line in my last comment)

in relation to the lineout we may see it improving with players training with each other over an extended period of time. The continuity my resemble that of a club side with the class of international players.

i agree with you on flannery too. think if fit he will be on the bench

Apologies.
Yeah that is a good point actually. In particular the lifter/jumper relationship may improve also. Over the past decade the pack has generally been made up of Munstermen and thus our lineout was a well oiled machine, now with Leinster and Ulster lads involved in the starting 8 now may be a chance to get the lads together and work out how exactly everyone likes to operate in the lineout.

Flannery however is still undoubtedly a better lineout thrower.

Flannery is definitely the best line out thrower we have.
Best however was one of our better performers during the6 nations. Memory serving i don;t think he had a bad game. correct me if i'm wrong

Best has been extremely consistent this season and should start. If fit, Flannery would be a great impact player. Cronin should go as back-up hooker.

I think most people are going to agree on Best starting so let's have a wee look at who would be better off the bench (if Fla was on form and fit).

If we were winning a tight game and Best had to come off I think I would prefer Flannery (if fit and on some form) due to his lineout throwing. i'd be nervous if we were up 2 points and had a lineout on our own 5 metre line with Cronin throwing in.

If we were down 2 points and hunting a win, I'd think I'd want the ball carrying, line running and ridiculous gas of Cronin. Has to be the fastest forward in our squad.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think most people are going to agree on Best starting so let's have a wee look at who would be better off the bench (if Fla was on form and fit).

If we were winning a tight game and Best had to come off I think I would prefer Flannery (if fit and on some form) due to his lineout throwing. i'd be nervous if we were up 2 points and had a lineout on our own 5 metre line with Cronin throwing in.

If we were down 2 points and hunting a win, I'd think I'd want the ball carrying, line running and ridiculous gas of Cronin. Has to be the fastest forward in our squad.

Should cronin get game time it would be great to see him run with the ball more. also it will be interesting to see what leinster will do with him in that respect next year because can be a fairly destructive runner.

I think most people are going to agree on Best starting so let's have a wee look at who would be better off the bench (if Fla was on form and fit).

If we were winning a tight game and Best had to come off I think I would prefer Flannery (if fit and on some form) due to his lineout throwing. i'd be nervous if we were up 2 points and had a lineout on our own 5 metre line with Cronin throwing in.

If we were down 2 points and hunting a win, I'd think I'd want the ball carrying, line running and ridiculous gas of Cronin. Has to be the fastest forward in our squad.

Another benefit to bringing Flannery is that he might bring out the best in Best (no pun intended).

However I think people need to be realistic. Flannery wasn't able to last 80min in a Magners League game against Ulster so the idea that he is now going to be able to produce the goods against the Worlds best sides is pretty unlikely.

If we're going to perhaps risk Ferris, D'arcy and Maybe TOL and Kearney too I think we are taking a big gamble bringing out so many players who are not fully fit.

caoimhincentre wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think most people are going to agree on Best starting so let's have a wee look at who would be better off the bench (if Fla was on form and fit).

If we were winning a tight game and Best had to come off I think I would prefer Flannery (if fit and on some form) due to his lineout throwing. i'd be nervous if we were up 2 points and had a lineout on our own 5 metre line with Cronin throwing in.

If we were down 2 points and hunting a win, I'd think I'd want the ball carrying, line running and ridiculous gas of Cronin. Has to be the fastest forward in our squad.

Should cronin get game time it would be great to see him run with the ball more. also it will be interesting to see what leinster will do with him in that respect next year because can be a fairly destructive runner.

I agree he really is good at finding gaps especially on front foot ball and on top of that he is one of the best support runners we have in the pack too he is constantly looking to recieve offloads.

Caoimhin-

Best did give away a lot of penalties in the early games in 6n

Rodders-

Very good point. I personally hope TOL and Kearney don't go but it's true we could bring Flannery and he may just break on us again or not be able to handle the pace and intensity

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Caoimhin-

Best did give away a lot of penalties in the early games in 6n

For the same offense too.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Caoimhin-

Best did give away a lot of penalties in the early games in 6n

For the same offense too.

i stand corrected. what was he doing as a matter of interest

Make no mistake, when Best and Flannery are both in top gear, Flannery is the better hooker. No doubt.

Opposition HATE him- especially the English. He brings agression that Best simply cant. And there s the throwing in issue (which is as big for a hooker as goal kicking is for a, well, kicker)

However, its doubtful he'll be fit, so best it is, with Cronin / Fla on the bench depending on Fla's fitness.

Bascially he was the tackler assist (made the tackle with another player). He remained on his feet and contested for the ball but wasn't releasing the player first.

He learned after the first 2 games.

It was a bit frustrating but he seemed to clear them up after the French game I thought. Also his club form after the 6n was pretty good

It was mainly going off his feet and not realeasing the tackled player

red_stag wrote:Bascially he was the tackler assist (made the tackle with another player). He remained on his feet and contested for the ball but wasn't releasing the player first.

He learned after the first 2 games.

i see.

Was this down to him trying hold players up and form a maul or was he hitting the deck while making the tackle.

Interesting though that Best came off 2nd best against Strauss at the RDS recently. I know its not the discussion, but RS would be (and I think) will be the no 2 post WC.

Boyne wrote:Interesting though that Best came off 2nd best against Strauss at the RDS recently. I know its not the discussion, but RS would be (and I think) will be the no 2 post WC.

you have to look at that in context though. Leinster were on top as a whole so its unfair to judge best on a performance where his entire team was struggling

Yeah, but you cant argue who had the better season though...

caoimhincentre wrote:

Boyne wrote:Interesting though that Best came off 2nd best against Strauss at the RDS recently. I know its not the discussion, but RS would be (and I think) will be the no 2 post WC.

you have to look at that in context though. Leinster were on top as a whole so its unfair to judge best on a performance where his entire team was struggling

+1

eh tbh just his discipline in and around the tackle area in general was fairly poor in the 1st two games. Most of the time a player was being tackled and he'd push them back (rather than them falling forwards) this counts as an assisted tackle, he didn't release and was penalised heavily

* and by no 2 I mean hooker... not the no 2 hooker... if that makes sense

Thanks for clearing that up Pete.

Boyne, Strauss undoubtedly had the better season.

Boyne wrote:Make no mistake, when Best and Flannery are both in top gear, Flannery is the better hooker. No doubt.

Opposition HATE him- especially the English. He brings agression that Best simply cant. And there s the throwing in issue (which is as big for a hooker as goal kicking is for a, well, kicker)

However, its doubtful he'll be fit, so best it is, with Cronin / Fla on the bench depending on Fla's fitness.

Well thats subjective Boyne. In my opinion Best is a better tackler, better scrummager, is better at the breakdown, has better hands and reads the game better.

Flannery is the better thrower under pressure but also has the habit of giving away stupid penalties. Neither are great ball carriers but Flannery is particularly poor as he runs too upright, is slow and carries the ball in one hand so he tends to get isolated and smashed backwards. His tackling technique is poor also and he tends to lose his cool too easily.

He outplayed Best in the last ML head to head but was carried off injured so I seriously doubt at 33 he'll ever be back to the level we need.

[quote="roddersm
He outplayed Best in the last ML head to head but was carried off injured so I seriously doubt at 33 he'll ever be back to the level we need.
[/quote]

That is a very real possibility

Rodders, Flannery was without a doubt the main man in posession of the jersey before he was injured, so to say that Best is bascially better in every facet of the game may put you in the minority.

Perhaps now that Fla is injured Best is in control, but before his injury, there was never any arguement who the no 1 hooker was.

Wasnt Flannery picked to go on tour with the Lions?? I guarantee you he would have been the test Lion if he hadnt gotten injured.

Best was never in that league. Hes coming good now though.

It's funny how there has been so many negatives thrown about regarding Kearney coming due to his fitness but the vast majority are all for bringing Flannery. It obviously comes down to Varley not being very good but it's still funny to look at the difference between himself and Kearney.

First off, Best has to start for me. He gives balance to our pack full of ball carriers. It's been mentioned that he gave away a fair few penalties in the first two games but, after DOC, he was most successful in implementing our holding up the player and turning it into a maul tactic. For me he was actually quite impressive in the last three games of the six nations and the rest of the season with Ulster.

Should Flannery go if he's fit? Absolutely, but it's due to Varley not being very good and us not really having a choice in the matter, unlike poor Kearney, who has several men breathing down his neck.

Also, for those saying Best gives away loads of penalties in comparison to Flannery. It may or may not be true but do ye remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniAZEJn7fU

A mixture of laughter and a what in the hell are you doing moment....gas to look back on it though!

mrsuperclear wrote:It's funny how there has been so many negatives thrown about regarding Kearney coming due to his fitness but the vast majority are all for bringing Flannery. It obviously comes down to Varley not being very good but it's still funny to look at the difference between himself and Kearney.

First off, Best has to start for me. He gives balance to our pack full of ball carriers. It's been mentioned that he gave away a fair few penalties in the first two games but, after DOC, he was most successful in implementing our holding up the player and turning it into a maul tactic. For me he was actually quite impressive in the last three games of the six nations and the rest of the season with Ulster.

Should Flannery go if he's fit? Absolutely, but it's due to Varley not being very good and us not really having a choice in the matter, unlike poor Kearney, who has several men breathing down his neck.

Also, for those saying Best gives away loads of penalties in comparison to Flannery. It may or may not be true but do ye remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniAZEJn7fU

A mixture of laughter and a what in the hell are you doing moment....gas to look back on it though!

Good post. Im in work so cant access youtube, but I imagine its when he swung the boot against France, n'est pas? Quite funny indeed!

mrsuperclear wrote:It's funny how there has been so many negatives thrown about regarding Kearney coming due to his fitness but the vast majority are all for bringing Flannery. It obviously comes down to Varley not being very good but it's still funny to look at the difference between himself and Kearney.

First off, Best has to start for me. He gives balance to our pack full of ball carriers. It's been mentioned that he gave away a fair few penalties in the first two games but, after DOC, he was most successful in implementing our holding up the player and turning it into a maul tactic. For me he was actually quite impressive in the last three games of the six nations and the rest of the season with Ulster.

Should Flannery go if he's fit? Absolutely, but it's due to Varley not being very good and us not really having a choice in the matter, unlike poor Kearney, who has several men breathing down his neck.

Also, for those saying Best gives away loads of penalties in comparison to Flannery. It may or may not be true but do ye remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniAZEJn7fU

A mixture of laughter and a what in the hell are you doing moment....gas to look back on it though!

Couldn't agree with you more.

I think the main point is that Best brings a balance to our pack where as Flannery would further tip the balance towards ball carriers.
Like your comparisson of Flannery and Kearney also and it's completely correct, however the rule changes made a big impact on how useful Keanrey was, they didn't on Flannery.

A point to remember though- and a BIG difference between Kearney and Flannery is that Flannery was actually in good form before he got injured.

Kearney was already starting to disappoint.

I think thats the main consideration when defining the difference between the 2

caoimhincentre wrote:

red_stag wrote:Bascially he was the tackler assist (made the tackle with another player). He remained on his feet and contested for the ball but wasn't releasing the player first.

He learned after the first 2 games.

i see.

Was this down to him trying hold players up and form a maul or was he hitting the deck while making the tackle.

No the law changed on this last year. If he did it 12 months previous he'd have been fine. Really it was a case of over eagerness and not thinking things true. Doesn't seem to be a big issue since then. Given that him and O'Callaghan are the ruckers of the team they will have the highest penalty counts.

To be fair, it is true about Best being better in every facet of the game bar lineout. Lineouts are rather important of course but the fact every coach he's ever had has stood by him regardless of lineout problems should tell you every thing you need to know about the rest of his game.

The biggest issue I've had with Best in the recent past was the unacceptable number of penalties he gave away in the first two games of the Six Nations. He was lucky there was no alternative then, but he went on to play very, very well in the rest of the tournament.

2. Best
16. Flannery

And don't hesitate to get Falnnery in if we lose a few balls on our own lineout due to the throw.

Would be interesting to see if anyone else (outside of Ulster) thinks that, on top form, every facet of Bests game (bar the throw) is better than Flannerys......

Eddie O'Sullivan and Declan Kidney might fill you in with the facts

Notch wrote:Eddie O'Sullivan and Declan Kidney might fill you in with the facts

Would they though?

I cannot remember a time when Best was 1st choice hooker, under either coach. Of course barring injurys.....

Best, Cronin and Varley. All 3 have had good seasons for their provences. Best to start.

Fla's days are prob behind to be honest, even 100% he isn't as good as Best. He's is nowhere near match fitness, at least Ferris and Kearney have played some rugby earlier in the year. He is a poor scrummager, no longer an effective ball carrier and a massive liability discipline wise (remember the kick at Palisson in the 2010 6N), even I was booing when he only got a yellow, disgraceful!!
If he gets fit, he will be on the bench, so why don't we use these precious warm up games to see what fully fit Cronin and Varley can do, rather than gamble them on an injury prone player who isn't as good as the players playing now.

Goon- hes worth 100 Varleys even if he has one leg.

Boyne wrote:Goon- hes worth 100 Varleys even if he has one leg.

i think 100 varleys are far better then Fla on one leg.

caoimhincentre wrote:

Boyne wrote:Goon- hes worth 100 Varleys even if he has one leg.

i think 100 varleys are far better then Fla on one leg.

Ah, but matchday squads are only 22, so you've got 78 Varleys just sitting around doing nothing.

Fla brings rock solid lineout throwing which is something different to the other options so he has to be considered.

his carrying definitely was better than Best's, who knows now though. He has been out for so long

caoimhincentre wrote:

Boyne wrote:Goon- hes worth 100 Varleys even if he has one leg.

i think 100 varleys are far better then Fla on one leg.

Good for you Kev!

Best, Cronin and Flannery for me, Varley is not good enough for international rugby, even though it might be a good thing for munster and irish rugby if he goes as it would give sherry the chance to break through.