606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: HOOKERS

First topic message reminder :

Morning all.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court

This article relates to the choice of Hooker for the RWC, 3 must be taken and the options are:

Best- Good scrummager, can be poor in lineout, one of the only "donkeys" in the pack, a team leader also. Can give away penalties.
Cronin- Great in the loose, lineouts can be quite shakey also, primarily a ball carrier, good impact sub.
Varley- Tough player, has had a mixed bag since taking over for Flannery, good scrummager but can be poor in the lineout.
Flannery- Has been out of action for some time. Best lineout thrower in Ireland. Aggressive ball carrier. Experienced.

NB: It was said yesterday (can't find link), that Flannery should be available for the warm up games and that they have found the problem with his injuries

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Fla brings rock solid lineout throwing which is something different to the other options so he has to be considered.

his carrying definitely was better than Best's, who knows now though. He has been out for so long

i think you bring up the most important point there. Fla is an unknown quantity now so no one knows how he is going to play.

we will have to hope that the coach will make an informed decision on how he trains and how well he plays if he gets a chance in the warm ups.

valjester wrote:Best, Cronin and Flannery for me, Varley is not good enough for international rugby, even though it might be a good thing for munster and irish rugby if he goes as it would give sherry the chance to break through.

I agree i don't think Varley has enough quality.

greybeard wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

Boyne wrote:Goon- hes worth 100 Varleys even if he has one leg.

i think 100 varleys are far better then Fla on one leg.

Ah, but matchday squads are only 22, so you've got 78 Varleys just sitting around doing nothing.

Those Varleys could be doing all sorts of useful things on matchday. Stewarding etc. Commentary. Operating the scoreboard.

Notch wrote:

greybeard wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

Boyne wrote:Goon- hes worth 100 Varleys even if he has one leg.

i think 100 varleys are far better then Fla on one leg.

Ah, but matchday squads are only 22, so you've got 78 Varleys just sitting around doing nothing.

Those Varleys could be doing all sorts of useful things on matchday. Stewarding etc. Commentary. Operating the scoreboard.

Could make a cheerleading team out of them. Deck them out in mini skirts and tank tops.

Off for a wee puke now.

caoimhincentre wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Fla brings rock solid lineout throwing which is something different to the other options so he has to be considered.

his carrying definitely was better than Best's, who knows now though. He has been out for so long

i think you bring up the most important point there. Fla is an unknown quantity now so no one knows how he is going to play.

we will have to hope that the coach will make an informed decision on how he trains and how well he plays if he gets a chance in the warm ups.

Flannery's carrying had begun to regress badly before his injuries, he had started crabbing sideways a lot and running up blind alleys. Best is good at taking on slow ball and more importantly for the type of game we are trying to play he has lovely hands. The amount of times for ulster this season he has put backs through gaps by nice passes was unreal (to paraphrase poc), he is a very intelligent player and would be considered so much higher if his darts didn't go to Poopie about three times a year.

Boyne,
Did you ever hear of the phrase "too Far"

The more I think of it the more I get confused.

Best and Cronin are certainties in the squad IMO. Best has to start for balance.

Fla hasn't played a number of consecutive games in a long time but has bags of class. He may never regain full fitness. He may never regain full form.

Varley is fit and ready but is just poor

Val- I agree. On top of the crabing Fla used to throw some ridiculous offloads to no-one.
Best's hands for the Heaslips try against Scotland were pretty tasty.

I think i'm getting confused now too about Fla and Varley.

The only thing stopping me from changing my vote is that Varley is so bad.

Every player should be able to give that kind of offload though. It's a simple play.

caoimhincentre wrote:Boyne,
Did you ever hear of the phrase "too Far"

Very familliar

I think it was jsut the way he drew two lads into him that made it for me

Boyne wrote:

Notch wrote:Eddie O'Sullivan and Declan Kidney might fill you in with the facts

Would they though?

I cannot remember a time when Best was 1st choice hooker, under either coach. Of course barring injurys.....

Best was 1st choice ahead of Flannery in late 2006 before Flannery won his place back in 2007 after Bests form dipped.

Best has more caps and scored more tries for Ireland so he must be doing something right.

I thought Varley had quite a good season for Munster, prominant in the loose and looks for work all the time so is good for impact off the bench (lets face it its all he'll do if anything). Not 100% on his set piece work so won't comment but never heard any concerns (or heaps praise).

At the end of the day we know what we are getting with Varley, maybe not WC talent but good enough for bench cover for the US and Russia and injuries.
Fla is a complete unknown, we don't know if he will be fit, if the limited number of games are left to bring him up to speed and what he has gained or lost because of the injury.

Is it worth playing Fla in 2, 3, 4 warm up games at the expense of the other 3 in the hope he is fit and on form and than leaving the other players short of game time? They will need pitch time as well, no one has played since May.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think it was jsut the way he drew two lads into him that made it for me

Best was very good for that try but, to be fair, Scotland's defence was shocking for that try and for the game in general. ROG managed to score a try handing off a forward for god's sake (was Ross Ford wasn't it??). Reddan's try was far too easy too. So, yes, Best is better than Flannery in that department but let's not go overboard.

Notch wrote:Every player should be able to give that kind of offload though. It's a simple play.

But they don't especially Irish forwards, and he does it for Ulster on a regular basis, Best is comfortable with the ball in hand and he is a good option taker.

the-goon wrote:I thought Varley had quite a good season for Munster, prominant in the loose and looks for work all the time so is good for impact off the bench (lets face it its all he'll do if anything). Not 100% on his set piece work so won't comment but never heard any concerns (or heaps praise).

At the end of the day we know what we are getting with Varley, maybe not WC talent but good enough for bench cover for the US and Russia and injuries.
Fla is a complete unknown, we don't know if he will be fit, if the limited number of games are left to bring him up to speed and what he has gained or lost because of the injury.

Is it worth playing Fla in 2, 3, 4 warm up games at the expense of the other 3 in the hope he is fit and on form and than leaving the other players short of game time? They will need pitch time as well, no one has played since May.

There are five games so Flannery should get time in at least two of them. Varley started the season well but by the end of it he had become a liability. He seems to be playing the breakdown rules from last year and keeps getting pinged for not releasing after the tackle and his lineout throwing fell apart and by the end of the season he was struggling to find the front jumper. He is an excellent carrier but he has a tendency to turn quick ball into slow ball by taking on ball that should have gone to the backs. Sherry looked a much better player in his cameos.

In the end I don't think it'll matter because chances are Fla will be injured and Varley will travel.

valjester wrote:

Notch wrote:Every player should be able to give that kind of offload though. It's a simple play.

But they don't especially Irish forwards, and he does it for Ulster on a regular basis, Best is comfortable with the ball in hand and he is a good option taker.

Exactly. Trimbles try against the saints is another example. I'm sorry to break the news to people but the majority of tight 5 forwards in the NH are not capable of drawing a man and offloading so Bests skills are pretty unique in this respect.

Val- What makes you say Fla won't be fit? Wasn't there positive news yesterday?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Val- What makes you say Fla won't be fit? Wasn't there positive news yesterday?

Just a gut feeling. I know there was positive news but we've heard that a few times and the longer he's out the harder it will be for him to get back as it is probably becoming a mental problem as well as the physical one. I hope he is back but I just have a feeling he won't make it.

I have a feeling he will be back but will be a shadow of his former self. Will take him a fiar bitta game time or something special to get him up to match fitness.

Best as first choice. Flannery on the bench if match fit. Cronin as backup.

I'm sorry but the thought of one of our hookers getting injured and Varley being on the bench and then coming on at the RWC is just a step too far. he is not good enough. If Fla is fit he has to go as 3rd or 2nd choice depending on his fitness and form and also the opposition

There are five games so Flannery should get time in at least two of them. Varley started the season well but by the end of it he had become a liability. He seems to be playing the breakdown rules from last year and keeps getting pinged for not releasing after the tackle and his lineout throwing fell apart and by the end of the season he was struggling to find the front jumper. He is an excellent carrier but he has a tendency to turn quick ball into slow ball by taking on ball that should have gone to the backs. Sherry looked a much better player in his cameos.

In the end I don't think it'll matter because chances are Fla will be injured and Varley will travel.[/quote]

Thanks for the summery on Varley, most of my memories are of him earlier in the season where he did look good. Sherry does look like he will be a better player and did look the better player towards the end of the season.

Is at least 2 games enough for a player to be back match fit after a year long lay off? I don't think so. That's why we should bite the bullet and not select him and give the hookers who are fit gametime so they are on form and hitting the ground running come WC time. What about Sherry for a bolter??

Best and Cronin will certainly go.

The question is what to do about Flannery. IMO he will move heaven and earth to get in the squad - last hurrah and all that. However if there is any doubt over his fitness I'd be wary about taking him. All it takes if for say Best to get a dead leg against the USA, and if Fla isn't fit for the Australia bench, then Rory could be forced to fly home to get a replacement in.

Flannery seems to be getting a better player the longer he is off. He too had his off moments from the line and increasingly seemed to inspect rucks from the Shane Byrne school of hooking, rather than participate in them. However he has bags of experience playing with the Munster locks, so should go if fit. I'd start him as well against the USA as a final test before the Australia game to see if he should get the bench.


BTW Hooker was possibly the only position that EOS considered the options comparable as that was the only one he rotated.

Sherry?

Not in the 43 man squad don't think he is being considered buddy

the-goon wrote:
There are five games so Flannery should get time in at least two of them. Varley started the season well but by the end of it he had become a liability. He seems to be playing the breakdown rules from last year and keeps getting pinged for not releasing after the tackle and his lineout throwing fell apart and by the end of the season he was struggling to find the front jumper. He is an excellent carrier but he has a tendency to turn quick ball into slow ball by taking on ball that should have gone to the backs. Sherry looked a much better player in his cameos.

In the end I don't think it'll matter because chances are Fla will be injured and Varley will travel.

Thanks for the summery on Varley, most of my memories are of him earlier in the season where he did look good. Sherry does look like he will be a better player and did look the better player towards the end of the season.

Is at least 2 games enough for a player to be back match fit after a year long lay off? I don't think so. That's why we should bite the bullet and not select him and give the hookers who are fit gametime so they are on form and hitting the ground running come WC time. What about Sherry for a bolter??[/quote]

Sherry unfortunately made his run too late in the season and won't be considered but hopefully he will nail down the munster jersey soon. He was very impressive in his appearances and looks like his throwing is as good as flannery but he also seemed to have an good allround game. In regard to the match fitness thing; none of the players will be match fit as its a preseason. I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that flannery half-fit is a better option than varley. I really hope that he makes the squad but only as third choice.

I think the general 606v2 public agree, Flaneery is worth the risk considering the alternative that's why as of now Varley has 8% of the vote and Flannery has 28%

I'd be inclined to pick Flannery, but he's not the only player we have that is an injury worry.

Maybe every squad needs a 'hopeful' pick and Flannery will be it for us, but when selecting position-by-position we can also argue for Ferris, Kearney, Murphy...

But if they were all selected, that would put us on a hiding to nowhere.

Yeah totally agree Grey. Realistically out of those players Flannery's replacement would be the worst. Jones/Earls at fb or Varley at hooker, I'd go for Jones/Earls.

Just looked at the sportsguru's link for picks for the Ireland starting XV lads. It's gas, like if ya think poor sin é is bad for his diehard provincial approach you should see these boys.

http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/select-irelands-rugby-world-cup-team

You have to vote first to see it I think but Flannery is ahead of Best to start, Leo Cullen is ahead of DOC, Shane Jennings got 16% of the vote from Gibson and his mates, Conor Murray got 24% from me, Paddy Wallace got 7% from Notch and I don't know who gave Fitzgerald 32% but dear lord that lad must be high or something. I reckon the 606v2 team will be a lot different but it's interesting to see what the average Irish fan thinks I suppose.

Incidentally lads, sportsguru, get involved with the 606 one. I'm going for a top half of the table finish for this tournament. It's definitely my time.....

I've bever seen that poll before Mrs.

Mr.

mrsuperclear wrote:Mr.

I have to say, that did make me chuckle.

Looks like I'm a bit late to the party here.
Firstly, I voted for Best, Cronin and Flannery, as did most people so far.

I agree with most people in that Flannery will be doing very well to even be fit let alone up to World Cup standard. The problem is that there are few players that make my blood boil more than Damien Varley.

It's a real shame too because he came on to the scene with such promise. His throwing is as bad as Denis Fogarty's, he gives away more penalties than DOC, Best and Flannery put together, and his scrummaging is utterly awful. By far the worst in the country so I'd disagree very strongly with your description of him in your OP pete.

I don't think there's really too much point in mentioning Mike Sherry given that he's not in the squad but I will say this - he will feature for Ireland in the 2013 Six Nations.

On the Flannery vs Best thing; I think Best should start for the following reasons:
- He's fit (steady )
- He's in good form
- He's the man in possession of the No.2 shirt.

And that's all there is to say. They both bring something different. They have slightly different strengths at the set piece. One brings good hands and good rucking, the other brings manic aggression. Options are great to have. Added to that, I'm sure Sean Cronin will have a lot of say about who takes that bench spot.

MMC wrote:

By far the worst in the country so I'd disagree very strongly with your description of him in your OP pete.

Nothing wrong with that Munsty

You've got the wrong Munsterman pete.

Well done on these 606 picks threads by the way. They're offering up some great debate. I can't wait for the Scrum Half one. That's gonna be JUICY!

Oh sorry, still sleepy did a bootcamp thing last night and thus my head has shut down to try and ignore the pain in my body! ow!

Yeah scrumhalf will be tasty and back 3.

I can see certain people having a go at eachother over Jennings vs Leamy and Ryan vs McLaughlin too.