Welsh World Cup Squad - Flyhalfs

First topic message reminder :

Steven Jones has been the incumbent flyhalf since Neil Jenkins retired back in 2001. Almost un-opposed and un-userped.

A few players have added pressure to him, even taken the chalice for a few games, which often encouraged the very best out of ol'Wellies.

The other contenders and I guess current favourite from the six nations are headed by james hook but the squad includes a number of lads who could make the position their own if given a run.

I guess that we would take two flyhalfs, Henson, Hook and Priestland can all play multiple positions so take that in to consideration.

Will be interesting for people who wish to to state their first and second choice ten?

Steven Jones (Scarlets) 100 Caps (899 Points) Lions 6 Caps (53 Points)

Jason Tovey (Dragons) 0 Caps

Rhys Priestland (Scarlets) 2 Caps

James Hook (Perpignan) 52 Caps (277 Points)

Gavin Henson (Unattached) 31 Caps (130 Points) Lions 1 Cap

Nicky Robinson (Wasps) 12 Caps (99 Points)

Sorry MOG, but Smirnoff is right. When Stevie plays for us he's very effective, but his approach is far better. Instead of standing way back ready for the garryowen, he plays on the gainline and looks for runners, looking for someone to put into a gap. If he sees the rush defence aiming at his centres he goes for the dogleg and often gets the offload in that takes us forward. His game has always been about effective distribution. He can kick a little but has no great power in it, and you will no doubt agree he doesn't have blistering pace, but if you ask him to look to put runners into space there are few others as effective as him. If you ask him to play his natural game and make as few errors as possible, again there are not many others who are better. If you ask him to kick all day long, he'll do it for you but forget making breaks because you ain't gonna do that from 10m behind the gainline and flankers and all sorts steaming full bore at you some considerable time ahead of Mike Phillips hospital passes.

Give him quick ball and the freedom to play his own game and watch Stevie put the likes of Hook, Roberts or JD2 into space time after time. Gatland needs to wake up to these crud tactics!

Alun - see my last post. Stevie doesn't need to be carried - he needs to be allowed to play HIS game not this stupid garryowen rubbish. It's no coincidence that Gatland announced this tactic in the summer of 2009 and that since then our win ratio has gone down to 30%.

He's no Dan Carter, but he is a ruddy good Slam winning British Lions fly half who deserves better than Gatland's bright ideas!

no dissprect to steven jones but the scarlets backline has looked better with preistland at 10 than him at 10 this year plus when he plays well for the scarlets he has king outside him not head down merchants like roberts davies shanklin or bishop.

You can't pick him and phillips as a pair, your talking 1 slow passing 9 and 1 slow running 10.

If you have a fast passing 9 and a creative 12 (eg peel and yes tangoman henson) jones will play well.

If you don;t your stuck, how often has jones played well for wales in the last 2/3 years?

lose peel and henson and struggles, I'd pick him ahead of hook at 10 but preistland was the best welsh 10 last year game in game out with proably robinson next in line

I have a nightmare feeling well go

byrne
north
davies
roberts
shane
hook
;phillips

JB - as ever I agree with you - selection has to be about balance and good partnerships. Peel/Jones/Henson worked brilliantly in the past. For the RWC I'd go Rees/Jones/Hook as our best combo. Agree about Priestland and the Scarlets (except for the last 2 matches where Stevie looked like a man possessed!). His game is different again. He likes to go attacking from deep ball in hand at pace, drawing defenders (he's no slight fella ye ken!) and popping the offload. Makes a lot of line breaks for us. Stevie makes the ball do the hard work, whereas Rhys likes to go looking for work. Has been good this year though

to be honest best backline on form would be

9-Phillips
10-jones
12-henson
13-Hook
11- Shane
14-Halfpenny
15- Stoddart

problem is i would say in that backline only 2 of those players are on form- Hook and Stoddart.

jones like scarlet said is very good playing for them
and phillips and henson- 2008 or so models arent half bad either

however all these players on form is unlikely to happen.


against SA, Hook may start at 10, and then for the fiji and samoa matches SJ (to keep game controlled) and i hope the Nambia game would be priestland but will probably be hook again

nice to catch uo with you again tbs

rees jones at 9 and 10 or peel and jones at 9 and 10 be good for me,.

There is the play maker option of gav at 12 is a huge gamble with his fitness record and he is as popular as a case of the clap with the rest of the squad.


Big fan of young williams give it 12 months hell be a first choice in the national side

You too JB! Yes Williams looks pretty tasty doesnt he! Did you know Priestlands mum taught me maths? (many many moons ago! )

I also thought about bringing Priestland into inside centre to give him an intro to test rugby before his challenge for the 10 shirt starts properly (post RWC I would imagine). On that basis a Knoyle/Hook/Priestland combo could prove to be very threatening. The biggest benefit from a Hook/Priestland combo is that Hook would have a very good decision-maker outside him who could take the pressure off. I think he needs this as when his options are closed down he tends to go into headless chicken mode and having someone to take the pressure off ala Mike Catt at 12 for England could be the making of Hook at outside half.

yeh interesting idea scarlet, i mean that is one good thing when priestland plays 15, if jones is in a ruck priestland comes in as the playmaker-would add another element to the game

You're right totallybiased.
4 wins in 19 games. Yes he i's a real match winner.
Grand slam winner and British lions. So was phil Bennett. But I can't see him leading us into the WC. Good player as he was. He's nearly 34 and past it. Past it.

Hi Welshy - yes, he's got what I'd describe as a good rugby brain and has a decent size for a back being over 6 foot and close to 15st. Decent pace makes him a threat on the outside shoulder and changes angle very well when running. Decent boot and pass too - only his self-confidence holds him back and to be fair it has improved a great deal. As he hones his skills and becomes a better tackler he could turn out to be a heck of a player. I've always suscribed to Carwyn James' "it's a thinking game, it's a thinking game, it's a thinking game!" motto and Rhys fits that bill .... whilst Mike Phillips definately doesn't!!!

Sorry MOG, but he's better than you give him credit for.

Wales haven't beaten anyone other than Italy, Scotland and argentina with jones at 10 in 2 years. Why would we Start with a 10 that just can't deliver anymore?

He was a good player. But he's nearly 34. Any other team relying on a player who can barely run???

out of curio who would you play 10 mog?

hook (not for me just doesn't control the game or get the back line moving 10)

rhys preistland (yes imo)

tovery (maybe , bags of talent but keeps getting injured when he gets his call up for wales)

biggar (out of the frame)

robinson (see above)


whoever we play 10 will struggle if we have jones 8 and phillips 9 (more so if roberts is at 12)

toby f 8 peel/rees 9 jones 10 and hook /a fit henson at 12 well be much better

Manofgwent:
I think some of the posters on here are are dreaming of a different player to the flyhalf we have been watching the last 3 or more. I think Gatland has been a disaster selecting Jones and not giving others game time, if S Jones gets injured you would think we are stuffed but another part of me thinks our chances of going further will improve even with little game time for a replacement. We know with S Jones we have a good chance of losing so what have we got to lose!

Id play hook. Somebody with creativity.
I'm not happy with the whole situation. S, Jobes for me has had his day.
Hook. Only plays 10 for hs country.
Priestland. Naybe. But hasn't had enough game time.

I just look at Stephen jones record and think that if we persist with him, we won't get out of our group.
As I've said, I'm not blaming anyone other than our coach. He's not developed any of our young 10's. It's a disgrace!

Glamorganalun.
It looks like it's just us. Let's hope that what we are presuming doesn't come true. You never know. Stephen jones may look like quade cooper come the WC. Then again my missus may have an donkey like beyonce!!
Ain't gonna happen!!!!!!!'

MOG:

Maybe we should borrow some scarlet tinted glasses, we would have a backline with a very leaky defence, a bit like a Gareth Jenkins selection 4 years ago:

9 Knoyle
10 Jones
11 Stoddart
12 Davies
13 Williams
14 North
15 Preistland

The nost worrying thing i's that there's people on here who would take that.

Oh well. 7-2 walesdont make the quarters. I'll be rich and proven right!!

Mog thing is would you trust hook at 10?

More so than a decrepit 10.
That's a joke. But purely my point is not having a go at jones, but mores why haven't we developed somebody alongside him.
Priestland, Tovey or biggar. Take your pick. Whoever floats your boat! One of these players should have been given more fame time.
As I've said if Stephen gets injured. Where dI we turn?

fair enough, i think that is one mistake gatland has really made, no 10 who can fill in, priestland needs to play in all three warm up matches to get him some game time

I agree with MOG, Hook is my first choice. It's a shame Tovey has had to pull out, I've watched him all season and he shows real promise.. far better all round than Biggar. I also think Gatland has been very shortsighted in not looking to developing another 10 and also 15.

Wales only have one international class 10 and unfortunately he is 34 years old!

If Hook was a class 10 then Jones would not have recently been celebrating 100 caps for Wales.

Don't forget forwards decide who wins a match, the backs decide by how much. You can't blame the 10 every time you lose!

Stephen Jones is a lot better at Ten when he has players like Hook or Priestland pressuring him to perform. When he sees himself as comfortable in the position he looks shy of form.

I rated Jones a lot higher in 2008 than I did in 2009 and 2010 when Hook wasn't considered as a flyhalf.

To be honest though I have never rated Stephen Jones, like Neil Jenkins he has always been a mediocre player, but consistent enough. Just like Jenks, he was assured of his position unless another player came to light, as Hook did to Jones and players like Arwell Thomas, Jonathan Davies even Colin Stephens did to Jenks.

James Hook is the better option, but needs game time in the role.

Don't any of you factor into the fact that Jones has had to be playing outside of Phillips for the last couple of seasons? It's well documented that Phillips has been providing slow ball and that gives Stephen Jones a lot less time on the ball. I'd say that because of his defensive strengths we've been lucky he has been playing for us the last couple of seasons. I would dread to think how we would have preformed with a less defensively sound player at 10 having to make the most out of the urine poor ball they would be getting from Gats' favourite scrum half. Just a point like.

Maestegmafia:

I am astonished that you are including Arwell Thomas and Colin Stephens in the same breath as Stephen Jones and Neill Jenkins.

Jones and Jenkins have been top record breaking internationals and British Lions test players. I doubt whether Arwell or Colin Stephens would hold down a contract with one of the Regions in the professional game!

If James Hook was a quality 10 he would be playing regularly in the role for club and country. He isn't, so he is not!

100 caps, but who's been his competition?
Hooks been used, but i's favoured at centre. Sweeney, warlow, Matthew jones, nicky Robinson? Hardly world beaters!
Gatland should have done what Ireland have done and brought threw a 10 with jones. Picking priestland in the 3 warm up games would surely show that gatland i's panicking. There's not 1 place in the backs that isnt up for grabs, due to form, injury or a coach that doesnt know what the hell he's doing!

Seagultaf wrote:Maestegmafia:

I am astonished that you are including Arwell Thomas and Colin Stephens in the same breath as Stephen Jones and Neill Jenkins.

Jones and Jenkins have been top record breaking internationals and British Lions test players. I doubt whether Arwell or Colin Stephens would hold down a contract with one of the Regions in the professional game!

If James Hook was a quality 10 he would be playing regularly in the role for club and country. He isn't, so he is not!

Arwell and Colin Stephens both deposed Jenkins of his position as a flyhalf for Wales, as did Stephen jones for a while. We were always looking for better options, even though Jenks was the greatest goal kicker in living memory.

I think Stephen Jones' career has been the same.

As soon as another option has arisen we take a look at it, because despite his consistency, he isn't a world class flyhalf, and we wish we had one.

Seagul. Have you seen the people who are deciding that hook i's a worse 10 than biggar and jones. The welsh management and the clowns at the ospreys!

Jenks, like Jones now has never been seen as the 'classic' Welsh No 10 and always came in for criticism but again like Jones through sheer hard work, committment and determination he sore off all his competitors.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Jenks, like Jones now has never been seen as the 'classic' Welsh No 10 and always came in for criticism but again like Jones through sheer hard work, committment and determination he sore off all his competitors.

I agree

But there is a right and a wrong in both arguments there.

Many fans see Nicky Robinson as a great alternative and have done for the last ten years, I think he is a good example of why Jones has been the first choice for so long.

Nicky Robinson can be flakey as often as he can be brilliant. Jones is the opposite, he is rarely awful but equally rarely brilliant. I know why they would select Jones.

But James Hook is an all round good player, who does make things happen whether he is at ten, twelve or thirteen. He has to be in the backline somewhere, and I think he is best utilised as a flyhalf.

mm,

Totally agree on the Robinson point he is either brilliant or awful never consistently good which Jones has been.

As far as the Hook point I just think he should have been left in one position be that 10 or 12 IMO.

He has been moved around from pillar to post and never allowed to settle on one slot.

Jones, whilst never settling the game alight has been out most consistent No10 since he finally took over from Jenkins, he is our most experienced player in the squad and a British Lion.

Whilst I am more than happy to see Hook start at 10 I wouldn't be unhappy if he went (which I think he will) with Jones.

For me Priestland is the next in line to the 10 spot. He attacks the line well and kicks very well out of hand. His defence is pretty sound as well. would very much like to see him start agsainst England

McKay I agree though I think it will be hook who is given the hotseat against England.

If gatland thinks priestland i's next In line then I think he should have had more exposure. Wales are woefully under prepared for a world cup.

manofgwent wrote:Seagul. Have you seen the people who are deciding that hook i's a worse 10 than biggar and jones. The welsh management and the clowns at the ospreys!

manofgwent
Are you seriously trying to pull the wool over the posters eyes. Hook has been given massive game time at 10 by Ospreys and Wales

Hook was the number 1 choice for the Ospreys for two seasons they perservered with him, and from a bright start with region and wales, lets be honest he was an unknown then....... (OMG will the select few posters stop trying to justify his selection by harping on about his England game jeeze it was a one off)

Unfortunately he was found out big time in the regional game, continually regressing at 10 to such an extent that after the two Irish games he had to be replaced, it wasnt just the coaching staff, the forwards lost confidence in him................ to such an extent they brought an inexperienced young lad (Biggar) in, and bang the Os won the ML. He was also regularly started and replaced in the Welsh jersey, usually starting well and then closed down thus resorting to his lowest common denominator "head down and run run run" Yeah its not clever, its not inovative, its not flair.............. its an individual who just cant seem to understand the basics of a modern 10

And it wasnt only one Osprey coach .............. it was all of them , and it wasnt only the Welsh coach, it was the whole Lions coaching team, he was only put on standby as a UTILITY back originally.

He hasnt been able to nail the 10 or 12 jersey for Wales, unfortunately Gatland has an obsession with putting him in the side, two yrs ago Scotland were so confident of Hooks position that we put Slong against him in the centre, and he really didnt have any problem with Hook at all.

Roberts cant play with him in the centre, and yet he has had outstanding games with Shanklin (Wales & Blues), BOD (Lions), Fourie (Baa Baas), Lualala (Blues), Jon Davies (v NZ).

I really want Hook to play against England, but with Jones not to replace him then

manofgwent
You conveniently missed out the "demi gods" Iestyn Harries, Gavin Henson, James Hook................. Jones has seen them all off, not because of the "public clamour for Jones to play, but because these "world class" players couldnt crack it at the higher level.

The only coach who perservered with Hook was Gareth Jenkins, and whilst I think he was a superb coach, I thought he has unearthed a nugget with young Hook. Until the following season Hook came back pre-season a different model............stone heavier, upper body and arms massive, perma-tanned, and spikey hair, Yes nice to see Hook consolidated his great 1st season by concentrating on the important parts of his career. He lost something that season and has never recovered it

we are undemanned at 10 and 15. this is one of gatlands biggest shortcommings. (as others have said)

i still belive priestland should have started at 15 against england in the 6n. we were running out of time to bring a new 10 along, (and i agree with others that hook hadent taken his opportunities at regional or international level.)
the wales eng game, with byrne out of action, was the perfect chance to blood preistland, a player who was on form and playing regularly at either 10 or 15 in the domestic league.

putting hook at 15 has never worked. if we had stuck with hook in nthe center and blooded priestland at 15 i believe we would have had a better result against england and we would have been able to give preistland some game time.

we would not now be in the situation where we are so undermanned at 10 and 15.

wellies is not the most exciting of players but he is solid, dependable, experienced and skillfull enough to remain the first choice for wales. gats should have rotated with preistland, or maybe tovey, over the last year and then maybe we could have a proper flyhalf debate. as things stand we would be foolish to ditch jones just because he is over 30.

he is the best man for the job. had we given some others opportunities over the last season we might be able to say he isnt first choice and jones could be an excelent bench option.

as it goes we will be in trouble if stephen or byrne are injured or do not play well. fingers crossed they can make it through the campaign and play well. if not we are in trouble and it will be gatlands fault for not covering his bases.

Flyhalf. I don't have to pull over anyone's eyes. Stephen jones has 2 more votes than hook so far. As I've said. If we pick jones, we are settling for mediocrity and I can't see us getting past the group stage. As I've said jones isn't for me.
Perpignan have obviously seen something in hook.
I'm not interested in lions tours. That was 2 years ago when Stephen jones could still just about move. What I'm asking i's why havent Wales moved on.
We'll soon see come the world cup. We'll get stuffed by south Africa and then I can see gatland making a lot of changes. It happened in 2003 when our 2nd string ran the all blacks close. I wouldn't be shoeless that we finish the world cup with either hook or priestland at 10.
Or you could see hook at 10, 15, 12, 13. Who knows.

Fluidly. Did you see how well hook performed for the ospreys at 10 towards the end of the seasons. When biggar was replaced by hook, he didn't have any problem imposing himself.
You can talk about the past as much as you like. But I'm looking at what's best now. Stephen jones i's past it!

manofgwent:

I totally agree.....Stephen Jones is 34 and past his best. Unfortunately he is still a far better option that the others available.

I repeat what I said earlier, if Hook was a 10 he would be regular choice in that position for his club and country. But he is not!

If he is a success over a full season in France with Perpignan then he may be a viable prospect for the Wales 10 shirt. Only time will tell.

Hook isn't even guaranteed to start at 10 at Perpignan so it's doubtful whether he'll get regular game time in that position next season anyway.

manofgwent
Hook even by his most adernt supporters standards never imposed himself in those matches, Biggar had a number of MOM performances last season but his confidence dipped, I think I am right in saying Hook had nothing close to a MOM performance.

If we are talking most recent form...... you had better get a copy of the last couple of Scarlets performances then you will realise why you dont need to run run run to create fantastic offensive movement.

Just in case you forgot
Glasgow Warriors 29-37 Scarlets - 4 tries
Scarlets 38-23 Blues - 4 tries
Jones orchestrated the offensive movement and try scoring opportunities in both matches, controlled from all different areas of the park, and put in a massive defensive display, the awarenes between him Knoyle and the centres was a joy to behold.

Thats not from me mate thats from geniuine Blues supporters

I could bet my house that Hook will never get to that level of performance if he practiced day in day out from now until his French holiday

As I have stars. My major concern i's why we haven't developed anyone alongside jones. When jones had his knock in the 6 nations. Gatland's options were, hook. A guy who hadn't played at 10 for 18 months. Priestland 0 caps. That just isn't good enough.

I'm being made to sound like I'm in the James hook fan club. I know hook has his weaknesses. But as I said earlier. Wales have won just 4 games in 2 years with jones at 10. Why dies anybody think that's going to change.

Between hook and jones. Who would have been capable of scoring the try that dan carter did on Saturday? Fly half keeps on saying how the role of 10 has changed and put jones in the same bracket as carter. Well fly half. Would Stephen jones be capable of doing that? Not a prayer!

The only thing that jones has done for Wales consistently in the last 2 years i's tackle and kick every restart to the opposition!

Why do you keep throwing out the stat about us only winning 4 games in 2 years with Jones at 10? Are there not 14 other players involved in all those matches as well? Why pin it on Jones?

The last couple of seasons we've really struggled to get some ball carrying forwards and we've matched that up with a scrum half who is off form and has a slow pass. What miracles do you expect Jones to work with that? He's shown with the Scarlets this season what he can do with quick ball. I'm struggling to remember the last time playing for Wales he received such a good service.

Well fly half jones hasn't got the Wales back line firing like that. 4 wins in 19 attempts. When we play the springboks it won't be anything like Glasgow mate!
The scarlets play cavalier rugby and have always done so. Wales don't at the minute and that's why he doesn't suit Wales game.

are you just going to ignore the points about the forwards not making the ground for us and him getting urine poor service from the scrum half?

I think that both Jones and Hook play better when they are both in contention.

The competition for the 10 spot between the two of them puts them at their very best.

I site the 2008 slam as an example, where neither one nor the other really had a hold on the shirt.

Same works in Ireland between old master O'Gara and young upstart Sexton and England too maybe with JW and Toby Flood

I also see Gatland choosing Mike P. and 34-yr old slowcoach Jones, with inevitably the same results as the past 2 years - losses. When we are already out, Gatland turns in desparation to Hook at 10, Peel at 9, Priestland at 15, etc. They tear up the gameplan and put on a try-fest, but too late. It's deja vu - 2003 all over again.