Welsh World Cup Squad - Flyhalfs

First topic message reminder :

Steven Jones has been the incumbent flyhalf since Neil Jenkins retired back in 2001. Almost un-opposed and un-userped.

A few players have added pressure to him, even taken the chalice for a few games, which often encouraged the very best out of ol'Wellies.

The other contenders and I guess current favourite from the six nations are headed by james hook but the squad includes a number of lads who could make the position their own if given a run.

I guess that we would take two flyhalfs, Henson, Hook and Priestland can all play multiple positions so take that in to consideration.

Will be interesting for people who wish to to state their first and second choice ten?

Steven Jones (Scarlets) 100 Caps (899 Points) Lions 6 Caps (53 Points)

Jason Tovey (Dragons) 0 Caps

Rhys Priestland (Scarlets) 2 Caps

James Hook (Perpignan) 52 Caps (277 Points)

Gavin Henson (Unattached) 31 Caps (130 Points) Lions 1 Cap

Nicky Robinson (Wasps) 12 Caps (99 Points)

EEk, there's a girl in here!

Very good, and you both support the same team!

flyhalffactory wrote:manofgwent
You conveniently missed out the "demi gods" Iestyn Harries, Gavin Henson, James Hook................. Jones has seen them all off, not because of the "public clamour for Jones to play, but because these "world class" players couldnt crack it at the higher level.

The only coach who perservered with Hook was Gareth Jenkins, and whilst I think he was a superb coach, I thought he has unearthed a nugget with young Hook. Until the following season Hook came back pre-season a different model............stone heavier, upper body and arms massive, perma-tanned, and spikey hair, Yes nice to see Hook consolidated his great 1st season by concentrating on the important parts of his career. He lost something that season and has never recovered it

I am just looking at the WC 2007 team sheet and Hook is down as a centre, and if my memory serves prior to this Jenkins asked the Ospreys to play him at centre which is why he bulked up. I defo remember him playing at centre when Jenkins was in charge. I think this was the start of his being moved around. Could be mistaken about that mind. Did Hook have any games at fly in WC2007 - can't remember.

Paddy, I don't think anyone other than Stephen Jones played outside half (outside Peel) during the Jenkins saga.

Nottins

Hook played 10 for the whole game against England the last 6N game, he was MOM and Wales won. I think also started against Canada but subbed just after half when Wales ran away with the game as Canada ran out of steam. S Jones played all the other games.

Glamorganalun - yeah Stevo and Alfie were both benched for the Canada game as they were not considered the best options. And they had to come on to pull our bums out the fire, as we were losing to Canada before they came on.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Glamorganalun - yeah Stevo and Alfie were both benched for the Canada game as they were not considered the best options. And they had to come on to pull our bums out the fire, as we were losing to Canada before they came on.

I think some posters on here have selected memories SS, I would have said that Hook might have a good games played/win ratio, but they dont seem to say that 9 times out of 10 he has usually been pulled off due to the fact of the game plan has been gone awray and another 10 coming on to get him out of the brown stuff ............... an excellent example been the Canadian game, where Hook has quite a mare and your country losing (not the other way round as per GlamAls view)

FlyHalf - Also the Stats are never mentioned as to who was available in the rest of the backline (or forwards). After all maybe we should be reading those stats as Hook has lost x amount of games when starting as a centre, so maybe he should not start at all.

Another point SS - I remember after Hooks last game at 10 everyone on BBC's 606 was coming out saying he shouldn't be picked at 10 again - at least until he starts playing there regularly for his club, and that he can't control a game and his decision making his rubbish.
Where as a couple of months before and after his touch was gold and if we don't play him at 10 then we are guarenteed to loose.

It's interesting the change in opinion

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Another point SS - I remember after Hooks last game at 10 everyone on BBC's 606 was coming out saying he shouldn't be picked at 10 again - at least until he starts playing there regularly for his club, and that he can't control a game and his decision making his rubbish.
Where as a couple of months before and after his touch was gold and if we don't play him at 10 then we are guarenteed to loose.

It's interesting the change in opinion

It's usually just different people coming out of the woodwork at different times. Hook goes well, his supporters come out. Hook goes badly, his detractors come out. Very few posters stick to their guns AND give credit where it's deserved OR criticism when deserved.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Glamorganalun - yeah Stevo and Alfie were both benched for the Canada game as they were not considered the best options. And they had to come on to pull our bums out the fire, as we were losing to Canada before they came on.

ScarletSpiderman: Agreed, we were rubbish in that game but the non professional Canadians did run out of steam and the game was already changing hence we would have won anyway, also it was one of Hook's first games at 10 and it was four years ago. We did not do too well against Fiji, no game management what so ever with the great game controller i.e., S Jones!

We have moved on 4 years and we don't seem to have moved forward at flyhalf, we have wasted all this time not bringing on anyone with reasonable game time even in recent games. We are going to the WC with S Jones who may get injured against Argentina and we are stuffed for the WC, my hope is Preistland gets game time with Hook as S Jones is not going to improve playing these game coming up.

we are talking about more recent games

AlynDavies wrote:James Hook he has never played Badly there for Wales and Stephen Jones seems to have turned into a crash ball merchant!
We might as well put him at inside centre if he wants to do that!

Alyn
Ahem you dont have to cast your mind that far back in fact March 2011 Wales last meaningful match

France 28-9 Wales

Hook had an absolute mare...... as poor a performance in a 10 vest probably since the new millennium came in

If that had been Jone / Biggar / Robinson / Priestland you would have been calling for his head

glamorganalun wrote:We did not do too well against Fiji, no game management what so ever with the great game controller i.e., S Jones!

Inhis defence he did take a few cheap shots at in a few rolling maules (i remember a knee either to the head or kindeys).

But you are right we do need to have options at fly half, however we need to be serious and Steve is the best fly half in Wales, and then the pack are somewhat trailing. But as I have said we need both Hook and Jones for the RWC, as they are different players with different skill sets. However all around game I think Steve tips the scales.

Well said SS

SS

You need options at 10, but unless Hook cranks it up in tight play, and learns superfast how to be more aware, straighten the attacking line, and defend the 10/12 channel................ then you are going to have major problems in a world cup level of intensity.

Gatland should have pursevered with Robinson, Biggar, and brought on Tovey, and Priestland much more.



Teams will by now have realised, that Hook requires space to operate.....

In the last 2 yrs Hook has basically had just 3 starts at 10. The only game-time at 10 for the Ospreys has been when Dan Biggar got pulled off, which happened increasingly in the 2nd half of last season. Biggar, btw, is a bright prospect, but he lost form in the second half of last season. Even so, the Ospreys gave Hook no starts, despite the fact that Gatland was clearly eyeing him up as the starter/cover for SJ for the WC.

So how did Hook do, given he must have been a little rusty in the 10 role at top-level?
First , his goal-kicking was generally cool and accurate (given that he has not been kicking for the Os either).

In the first start, against Scotland, he won us he game in the first 20. We did nothing after that, when he was on and when he was replaced by SJ. I saw no improvment when SJ came on, and he would never have made that try-scoring break that effectively ended the game. Note, by the way, that many Welsh fans were expecting a tough game away to Scotland, if not a loss. We remember the Scotland game the previous year, when we were super-lucky to win and SJ was given a lesson in game-management by Dan Parks, of all people.

The game against Ireland was Hook's best performance. Unusually he played a defensive, attritional game , out-O'Gara-ing O'Gara with excellent tactical kicking. Ireland are a very good side, but we managed to beat them, albeit with some help from the ref.

Against France, Hook was poor, as were Wales. We were a bit tighter when SJ came on, but still not at all competitive.

How about SJ's 6 nations. He started against England and Italy. He made no errors comparable to Hook's charge down (though he did perpetrate a geme-losing charge down against England the year before). But he showed little positive intent either. I saw nothing to change my opinion that he has been on the slide since the Lions tour, at international level at least. We were terrible against Italy and disappointing agaisnt England. Stodgy Wales, mediocre SJ - same old same old.

That's the siutation, as I see it.

samuraidragon:

You see the 10 position exactly as I see it, some guys on here will be calling on S Jones for the next RWC, when he does not play well (which is most of the time) we have excuses like he had a bang at the start of the game, it's Phillips faul, it is the forwards etc that is why I think of him as Teflon. He has been average for some time he is like Bennett, Gatland always wants to pick him as if he wants Wales to fail and get a big pay off.

Glam and Samurai. The debate on Stevie could go on for ever. I wouldn't disagree that he's lost form since the lions. I don't disagree that he shows little positive intent for Wales right now. However, I don't think Gatland's getting the best out of him even taking his age into consideration. Stevie plays about 10 yards further back for Wales than he does for the Scarlets - the difference to his game is huge! Let Stevie play his natural game and Wales' backs will look more fluid. If Gatland insists on kick, kick, kick then Hook will be better (Possibly Biggar more suited again?). Do you know who I think would have best suited wales under Gatland? Mike bleeding Catt. That's why Gatland's approach sticks in my craw.

samuraidragon wrote:In the first start, against Scotland, he won us he game in the first 20. We did nothing after that, when he was on and when he was replaced by SJ. I saw no improvment when SJ came on, and he would never have made that try-scoring break that effectively ended the game. Note, by the way, that many Welsh fans were expecting a tough game away to Scotland, if not a loss. We remember the Scotland game the previous year, when we were super-lucky to win and SJ was given a lesson in game-management by Dan Parks, of all people.

The game against Ireland was Hook's best performance. Unusually he played a defensive, attritional game , out-O'Gara-ing O'Gara with excellent tactical kicking. Ireland are a very good side, but we managed to beat them, albeit with some help from the ref.

Against France, Hook was poor, as were Wales. We were a bit tighter when SJ came on, but still not at all competitive.

How about SJ's 6 nations. He started against England and Italy. He made no errors comparable to Hook's charge down (though he did perpetrate a geme-losing charge down against England the year before). But he showed little positive intent either. I saw nothing to change my opinion that he has been on the slide since the Lions tour, at international level at least. We were terrible against Italy and disappointing agaisnt England. Stodgy Wales, mediocre SJ - same old same old.

That's the siutation, as I see it.

samuraidragon

There's a very good reason Hook hasn't played many games at 10 for the last 3 seasons under ANY COACH.............. smell the coffee

Scotland
0 - 30 mins - Hook did very well because we gave him acres of space to operate in after that WE closed him down (we actually woke up and got in 2nd gear which in effect was enough to nullify his threat)
31 -64 min - Hook was closed down, then resorted to his base instinct..... "headless chicken running and no straightening of the offensive line or defensive line, he became progressively worse, to such an extent that we wasted 3 golden opportunities to score tries as a result of his mis-judgement and dire defending, and we claw back to within 10 points whilst still playing the worst team game for more than 15 yrs
65 min - Gatland has enough hauls the article off, Jones makes an immediate impact by driving Scotland back 6-7 metres with his first tackle of the game, the Welsh crowd roar, his team mates confidence visibly is restored and the game smashes back in the Welshmens favour.
ps Hook went past a prop (Murray) and our 8 (Vernon) !!!, dont be so ludicrous if you think Jones couldnt have done that

France
Hook probably played the worst game in a welsh 10 shirt I have probably seen, amazing that Gatland was so inept not to pull him off sooner

Gatland
in his words Wales best game was against England
Hook was 15 Jones was 10

Finally
Yes Jones is 33 or 34 and yes he cannot play to the same intensity as when he was 24 but he is still a quatum leap above Hook. If you havent seen anything positive about Jones then perhaps you better review the regional games this season particularly the last two Scarlets games he was outstanding and better in every facit of the 10 shirt including creative play than Hook has been for the last 4 yrs


Sorry if Hooks plays 10 at WC level Wales will not win

Just my opinion of course

FHF, my comments are restricted to SJ's international performances. I haven't seen much of him for the Scarlets, except for a few games on lousy streams! I note, though, that Priestland has had a lot of starts and some Scarlets fans say the team goes better with him at the helm.

Gatland may have said we were great against England, but so what! Gatland talks a fair amount of b*ll*x before and after all games. My opinion is we were stodgy and mediocre in the England game and never put together a decent move. Not all SJ's fault, but there you are. Same old, same old. The performance against Ireland was much better. It did seem, however, that Mr. G. was thinking of Hook as potentially the starting 10, as he would have started against England too, but for injuries in the centre.

Likewise, the O's repeatedly starting an out-of-form Dan Biggar at 10 and only using Hook there when Biggar had to be pulled off. Even the most fervent O's fans would agree that the decisions of the current coaching team can't be taken as sensible basis for judging anything, Like Gatland until recently, they don't play him at 10 because they know they can have him somewhere else in the backline - even though it won't be his best position - and thereby continue to have Hookie doing his stuff AND bring on the promising DB at the same time. Easy option - until the boy ups sticks and sods off to France.

Too late to talk about Priestland, Tovey etc. Yes, Gatland should have given them a chance, but it's too late now. It's going to be Hook or Jones. Or - the best option - Hook and Jones.

Samurai - I don't know many Scarlets fans who would say that we are a better side when Steve is not playing. Priestland has started a large number of games, but usually either at fullback, or when Steve has been unavaillable. I can only think of one or two occations when Steve was benched up when Rhys started.

Actually SS loads of fans have said Rhys gets the backs moving better and would probably prefer him at 10. That being said at the end of the season, Stevie looked to be back in form as he rediscovered his game playing close to the gainline and bringing his runners into things. Had a few stormers for us.

Personally I don't think the issue is so much about who plays at fly half. If Stevie plays then Hook should be at 12 to give us running options. If Hook plays 10 then we need a decision maker at 12 (Priestland maybe?) to take the pressure off or we'll see Hook doing the headless chicken again and getting turned over. Either way what we really need is for Gatland to finally say "OK the garryowen doesn't work for us. Kick for territory, kick to space or keep the ball in hand boys." Huh, chance'll be a fine thing! Sorry did I come accross all cynical there?

Totallybiascarlet:

Well said, I think we all have justification to be cynical with the obvious lack of ideas from the coaching team.

'
FHF, I really don't think SJ could have made that break, even if faced by a Scottish prop and number 8. Until the Lions tour there was some zip about him, though even in his heyday clean breaks were few and far between. He has basically monopolized the 10 shirt for the past 3 years, which means for some 20 games. Since then the strengths of his game have been passing and tackling. I don't recall any clean breaks.

Incidentally Jonny Wilkinson is usually considered one of the great tacklers in the game. It's not so easy to make him look silly, as Hook does here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGlEF4_lxGI

You're not going to tell me SJ could do that too, I hope.

I realise it's regional level and not intern. but Jones makes plenty of breaks for the Scarlets - also it's pretty hard to make breaks when your told to stand 10 yards from the gainline and hoof the ball.

I also agree with FHF that Hook made a brilliant break and provided some zip in the first 20mins (when Scotland gave him and everyone else acres of room) but he faded badly and started making wrong decisions and running around like a headless chicken, when Jones came on he shored up the defence, steadied the team and improved the play.

I agree we need more options at 10 and I think it's criminal how Hook has been moved from pillar to post, I think he's best at centre but seeing as he's been begging to play 10 for a year, he should have been given a decent shot at it for the Ospreys and Wales and then if he wasn't up to it, put him back in the centre but if he was good enough then great.

But my problem is I cringe when I think of the big Bokkes, Fijians and Saomaons charging at Hook as I think he'll be like a revolving door after about 20 mins. Also I dread to think what will happen to him while being hugely pressured by the SA (and others to a certain extent) back row.


Give him a steady platform and no pressure and he's great/no superb- but we're not likely to get that, particularly with Gatlands tactics and the evidence of the last 2 years

SP, good point about regional play. I'm restricting my assessment to international level. BTW, I agree that Stephen did a job when he came on against Scotland, but the fact remains we were already 19-6 up by then, all scored or made by JH. Not bad for this first start at 10 in 18 months.

Hook and Jones both have different pros and cons - and it's difficult basing all evidence on international games as if thats the case R Jones shouldn't get a look in though he's played well for the Ospreys - at least most Ospreys seem to think so (i'm not about to argue).

And the same could be said for a lot of players - the reason I bring up Stephen Jones' regional form is to show how he plays when asked to play a different, more attacking style and not asked to sit back and kick all the time (which doesn't suit him, and doesn't really suit Hook but at least he's got more range).

samuraidragon wrote:'
FHF, I really don't think SJ could have made that break, even if faced by a Scottish prop and number 8. Until the Lions tour there was some zip about him, though even in his heyday clean breaks were few and far between. He has basically monopolized the 10 shirt for the past 3 years, which means for some 20 games. Since then the strengths of his game have been passing and tackling. I don't recall any clean breaks.

Incidentally Jonny Wilkinson is usually considered one of the great tacklers in the game. It's not so easy to make him look silly, as Hook does here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGlEF4_lxGI

You're not going to tell me SJ could do that too, I hope.

No I am not so silly to say that Jones has that in his armoury he hasnt, but anyone with a modicum od rugby nous would say that Jones would have got through against Scotland but you picked a one fleeting moment in what 4 yrs. pretty rare that to be honest

now
I could show you Jones breakaway try and tell you Hook wouldnt be that aware in a million years.
I could show why Hook should never be near a 15 jersey, or even a 10 jersey,,,,,,,, positioning , defence, decision making etc etc

The amount of creative breaks by him pales into insignificance when you look at his lack of awareness, and defensive lapses

If you want to see Hook bang up to date that 2011 not 2007, 08, 09, 10 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz then look at his last performance in a 10 jersey

ps have a look on bbc ...................... now that is nightmare viewing

I'd say with Hook - if he plays regularly at 10 in France (and that's not a certainty) and plays well, and after the world cup SJ should have retired, then he should be in with a good shout for the Wales 10 shirt but to be honest my money would be on Priestland (or more likely Tovey) to be the number one choice.

But we'll see - at the moment I don't think Hook has the defence, the situational awareness, the decision making or the coolness under pressure to hold down the position, especially when playing under pressure to high tempo teams - or when Gatland is instructing him to play negative hoof ball rugby off slow ball. Though in fairness he did do well against Ireland (though shockignly against France)

TBS - fair enough I guess, I always took it as people liked to see a bit of both of them, but that Steve was the one we trusted when we were in the brown stuff

SS - that's personally how I see it at Y Parc

And me SS - I've always found something calming about seeing SJ on the Scarlets team sheet, particularly with his reliability.

Guys, I do not share your confidence when S Jones plays for Wales, I watched Wales against England at Twickenham and Jones was totally out played by Wilkinson, Wilkinson's kicking kept Wales under pressure the opposite to S Jones. It was not all Jones's fault that day with poor team selection (excluding S Jones) but he did very little except kicks at goal. Since that day the only teams Wales hame beaten in the 6N with S Jones at 10 is Italy twice and Scotland once, S Jones almost butchered the try at the end with a big overlap and he kicked towards touch for 1/2 Penny and luckily it stayed in field. Not a good record when Hook has played 10 for three games and won 2, Scotland and Ireland with an 18 month break at playing 10!

GlamAlun - S Jones also played against Scotland - and after 20 mins Hook did little.

Stevo should have been taken off in the match against England straight after he took that knock to the head. You could tell he wasn't right, but despite that I thought he put in a pretty decent performance, unlike quite a few of the Welsh players that day who went missing.

Smirnoff: The game was won by the time Jones came on!

Rugby Dreamer: I was talking about Twickenham 6N match the season of good will when we were throwing passes to thee opposition including S Jones against England, Hook and Shane against France.

sorry alun, that you were, didn't read your post properly. Oops.

Alun

You bang about Hook start/win ratio lets put this to bed once and for all.

Scotland 2009.
Hook was in the centre we actually put Schlong against him knowing that even tho he is not a natural centre he could easily do a number on him and lets be honest he did.

Scotland 2010.
Hook played brill for 20 mins, then good for 10 mins, then got progressively poor, to such an extent that by the 64 minute we had got back to a 10 point gap and wasted 3 golden opportunities to score tries, Hook if he stayed on would have lost you the game IMHO. Jones comes on makes a massive tackle raises the crowd spirit and the players confidence........ result Wales end with a 18 point gap

So Alun you can't just say Hook starts and Wales win, what you probably can say that he starts, loses his way and people clear up afterwards

I don't want to keep rehashing the Scotland match, but Hook was replaced by SJ with just 66 minutes to go. At the time were leading by 19-6. FHF is welcome to believe that "Hook would have lost us the game" in the remaining 14 minutes (Scotland , btw, only put 3 points on us when we had two men binned), but here's how one of the major national papers reported the game -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/scotland/8321577/Six-Nations-2011-Scotland-wing-Sean-Lamont-left-enraged-by-poor-performance-which-helped-Wales-end-losing-run.html

Hook was "sublime" according to the (Scottish) journalist.

When is the last time any objective source described an SJ internatioanl performance in those terms?

Samurai

it was 16-6 when Gatland called for the substitution in the 65 min, during that minute we gave a silly pen away Hook scored. It was run against the play since the 31 min, when we should have scored 3 clear tries 2 of which was a direct result of poor decision making from the 10 channel


2009/10
Lordy lordy are you telling this forum that Hook had a good game!!!. Lamont tucked him up like a kipper for the first 25 mins. an extract from the WRU of all sites
"Gatland had been unhappy with Scotland’s request to keep the Millennium Stadium roof open for the clash in the Welsh capital.
But his comments appeared to come back and haunt him as Scotland galloped into a 15-3 lead inside 20 minutes. John Barclay strolled over for the opener after bumping off the weak tackles of Gareth Cooper and James Hook."

Hook was dire for those first 35-40 mins .......... no doubt about it

Um - I'm talking about the 2011 game, when Hook started at 10. Not the 2010 game when Hook was in the centre and Stephen Jones was comprehensively outhought, outkicked and outplayed by Dan Parks, of all people.

Not me who talked of "a sublime performance" by Hook against Scotland this year. It was a Scottish journalist writing in a national newspaper. You 're entitled to your opinion that Hook would have lost us the game if he had stayed on for the last 14 mins, but other informed observers have totally different view on his game.

To repeat the question - "sublime Stephen Jones performance for Wales" - when was the last time you saw that phrase, if ever?

Samurai - being serious when was teh last time you heard that about Hook without that horrible feeling of the press trying to find out what Hooks poo tastes like?

Who'd have thought the Scarlets supporters would be so pro Stepehen Jones though? I am shocked.

Risca - absolute shocker ain't it. Just like how anyone outside of the region is quick to slate him for the failures of the team in general. The truth is we need two decent fly halves who have different skills and attitudes. I do honestly believe that for this world cup Steve is the better option, but I can understand why people see it diffferent. I also think that come the final whistle of our final match of the RWC Hook will take over the role, and will need to prove that he is up to the job of carrying the national side into the next RWC.

I hope it's not a given that Hook will inherit the number ten jersey, especially if he ends up playing centre at Perpignan.

It will be interesting after the WC if Hook is a regular at 10 (which isn't guarenteed) to see if he improves his decision making and some of his more obvious weaknesses to complement his obvious strengths. Because if he doesn't I bet the majority of fans on this board will be calling for his head (or for him to be put in at centre, FB, Wing, Prop...) and will be bigging up Morgan as the best thing since sliced bread.

If he does though he could be great, but at the moment its an IF

I don't mind Wellies in all honesty SS. I certainly wouldn't criticise him.

He will get slated though...