Welsh World Cup Squad - Flyhalfs

by maestegmafia Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Steven Jones has been the incumbent flyhalf since Neil Jenkins retired back in 2001. Almost un-opposed and un-userped.

A few players have added pressure to him, even taken the chalice for a few games, which often encouraged the very best out of ol'Wellies.

The other contenders and I guess current favourite from the six nations are headed by james hook but the squad includes a number of lads who could make the position their own if given a run.

I guess that we would take two flyhalfs, Henson, Hook and Priestland can all play multiple positions so take that in to consideration.

Will be interesting for people who wish to to state their first and second choice ten?

Steven Jones (Scarlets) 100 Caps (899 Points) Lions 6 Caps (53 Points)

Jason Tovey (Dragons) 0 Caps

Rhys Priestland (Scarlets) 2 Caps

James Hook (Perpignan) 52 Caps (277 Points)

Gavin Henson (Unattached) 31 Caps (130 Points) Lions 1 Cap

Nicky Robinson (Wasps) 12 Caps (99 Points)

by glamorganalun Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:27 pm

By picking S Jones, we will lose to all the top 6 teams and probably teams down to 11th, just look at his record over the last 3 years, when he starts at 10. Gatland seems to pick him for damage limitation rather than going to win the game, but Gatland had to get a win he put Hook at 10 against Scotland and Ireland and his first loss against France in the 6N. S Jones played 10 against Italy and won thanks to Hook's contribution to two tries. Hook has a disadvantage playing 10, he does not have a decent centre to replace him!

I would not pick S Jones for the RWC but he will go anyway as he is Gatland's blue eyed boy, the fact is he can't score tries unless there is nobody in front of him, can't make a decent break, runs sidesways giving the pass, kicking for touch is usually short (that's if he hits touch), tactical kicking is poor and he does not support the attack after giving a pass as he is slow. We all know he is a good defender if you run straight at him and he is a very good medium to short distance penalty kicker but this is international rugby not ML we need more than this to get anywhere in the RWC.

I would go for wins i.e., Hook, Robinson and Tovey if fit, Preistland has played better than Jones for the Scarlets at 10 but his defence is as bad as Stoddart's. I accept this is a risk but I would rather some chance than no chance!

by Shifty Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:32 pm

glamorganalun wrote:Hook has a disadvantage playing 10, he does not have a decent centre to replace him!

That's probably one of the most sound arguments I've ever read in the Hook / Jones debate and I've never considered it!

Discussing on a different thread, I was wondering if a centre combination of Jonathan Davies and Scott Williams could offer a better option, with Knoyle providing the service from Scrum Half.

by glamorganalun Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:45 pm

The little I have seen of S Williams he has looked good going forward, I don't know what his defence is like, looking back at the BaaBaas match he was in the defence when they scored two tries in 5 mins but the whole back line was from the Scarlets hence a turnstyle comes to mind!

by Shifty Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:56 pm

glamorganalun wrote:The little I have seen of S Williams he has looked good going forward, I don't know what his defence is like, looking back at the BaaBaas match he was in the defence when they scored two tries in 5 mins but the whole back line was from the Scarlets hence a turnstyle comes to mind!

Well in the final winning try against the Barbarians, Williams took out Sergio Parisse, so he took out a player who's a lot bigger than him. Parisse did pass a fraction of a second before the tackle but Williams still nailed him. So no fault there.

For Mathieu Bastareaud's try, Williams put the tackle in on Willie Mason in the movement.

So defense can't be too bad for a 20 year old. If he can take Mason and Parisse I think we're ok. Very Happy

by Guest Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:01 pm

Scott Williams is actually very strong in defence, although he does often go to strip the ball sometimes rather then make the tackle, but from the little I've seen of him, he has the ability to drive people back in the tackle and often win turnovers. Not bad for a Scarlet back Wink

by maestegmafia Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:11 pm

AlynDavies wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Biggar looks like Rhys Priestland did two seasons ago. Promising first season, appalling second season, better third season, finally getting it and making it count fourth season... Biggar is a young bloke, he'll get it soon.

Yes I think so too. He'd better come good soon or he will be replaced by Matthew Morgan!

I'm beginning to wonder if we will see Biggar at 12 next season with Morgan at 10.

One of his Biggest faults was taking tips on defence from Dan Parks. I dont think Center would be a very good idea.

Morgan will pose a nice alternative ten. different style etc

by glamorganalun Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:21 pm

Morgan needs 2 years to develop before any big games as he is out of his depth even in the premier, watching him against Pony he was like an open gate he could not handle the Ponty centres. He is great to watch and his out of hand kicking is much better than all the Welsh fllyhaves bar Tovey.

by samuraidragon Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:34 am

Man of Gwent wrote -

"Quick fact. In their most recent starts in the 10 jersey.
S, jones played 19, 4 wins.
Hook. Played 4, 3 wins."

Says it all, in my view. SJ has not been "performing a solid job" at 10. The halfback axis has been part of a long and depressing losing streak that we all want to end, don't we?

I would have liked to see Tovey and Priestland given time at top level, but it's too late for that now. Henson is out of the question at 10 - his last start, vs Ireland, was woeful.

So it has to be Hook. I would use Jones as a bench option, or sometimes starting, depending on the opposition, with Hook putting in a half at 12.

by dogtooth Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:53 pm

hook has a lot of votes for FH, but here is why he should play center. watch james hook at 2nd receiver (shane helps a lot in the second clip. good guy to have on your side)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGlEF4_lxGI&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf3CJapqP7A

by dogtooth Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:59 pm

and this is why wellies should play FH in the world cup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgulsZuWSfQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw6F49zKkdw

Doh

by samuraidragon Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:40 am

Dogtooth, thanks for those clips, but I'm not sure I agree with the point. The Hook clips show Hook's brilliant running, fearsome hand-off, etc. The first SJ clip shows what a good instinctive runner he was back in 2003, and the second shows him getting bounced hard by Foden and injured in a front-on tackle.

That kind of running has all but disappeared from SJ's game, but tackling is actually one of his strengths. - he's a better tackler than Hook, in fact, which is why I have never been 100% convinced by JH at centre, despite his brilliance in broken play.

Hook, is however, a better tackler than some of the Scarlets backs, who showed their weakness in the Ba-Bas game. The try-saver against England in 2008 was something to behold, the turning point of that much which set us on the road to the GS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDt2Z-Ws3TM&feature=related

Most of the youtube clips of Hook (tributes. etc) show what he has done at 10. That said, clips are only clips and you need to see a match in its entirety to get the full picture of a player's talent.

by manofgwent Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:34 am

Dogtooth. Can't agree.
Stephen jones scoring a try 8 years ago and injuring himself with being bounced off a tackle. Hasn't convinced me at all.
Stephen jones moves like super ted! Also I can't see him getting through the group stages without picking up some kind of knock.

by flyhalffactory Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:13 pm

samuraidragon wrote:Man of Gwent wrote -

"Quick fact. In their most recent starts in the 10 jersey.
S, jones played 19, 4 wins.
Hook. Played 4, 3 wins."

Says it all, in my view. SJ has not been "performing a solid job" at 10. The halfback axis has been part of a long and depressing losing streak that we all want to end, don't we?

I would have liked to see Tovey and Priestland given time at top level, but it's too late for that now. Henson is out of the question at 10 - his last start, vs Ireland, was woeful.

So it has to be Hook. I would use Jones as a bench option, or sometimes starting, depending on the opposition, with Hook putting in a half at 12.

A man who uses stats has already lost the argument
Famous words from a famous person

France 28-9 Wales
Last match Hook played 10.............. he was dire, found out big time.............. easy stuff just dont give him room. France switched off by half time

You are only as good as your last match

If you start Hook at 10 you will not win matches in the world cup, unless you have a dominant pack, and fast distribution from the scrum, and even then he will probably not be able to straighten the line and the winger will receive the ball on the touchline at best (remember Prydies first game)

Most of the games Hook has started at 10 the game has been lost until he was replaced ............... look at your own teams stats 2010/11 season

by welshy824 Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:41 pm

samuraidragon wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDt2Z-Ws3TM&feature=related

that tackle was a grab and swing and hook almost used his own momentum to take sackey over the line, i mean sackey was on the 5 metre line after hooks tackle he was almost over. so not a great example of tackling however he got there to make the tackle. i think people are being harsh on SJ saying he doesnt run with the ball and he cant open the backline-yet he does it for scarlets week in week out. Hook will get a game at 10 probably but he needs more gametime at 10 as far too often he does too much and gets turned over. Hopefully his game management will improve after a season playing at 10. until then i think after SJ retires Priestland is in the driving seat for the 10 shirt

by glamorganalun Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:46 pm

dogtooth:

Are you joking with those clips, 2003!!! against England, you did not show the kick just after half time when Jones kicked the ball down Robinson's throat to lose the lead built up at half time, also Jones had 3 yards to run to the line for a rare try for Wales. The other clip was just a poorly timed tackle that injured Jones (he was brave) but if it were not for the touch line he would have been beaten for pace.

Stephen Jones is an average flyhalf at ML level at international level he is poor.

by flyhalffactory Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:19 pm

glamorganalun wrote:dogtooth:

Are you joking with those clips, 2003!!! against England, you did not show the kick just after half time when Jones kicked the ball down Robinson's throat to lose the lead built up at half time, also Jones had 3 yards to run to the line for a rare try for Wales. The other clip was just a poorly timed tackle that injured Jones (he was brave) but if it were not for the touch line he would have been beaten for pace.

Stephen Jones is an average flyhalf at ML level at international level he is poor.

Thats amazing comments Alun
I did say on this site I wouldn't respond to tosh but Oh Hum I have to, few comments from players and coaches along the way

Wilkinson on Jones playing 10 and him 12 (Lions tour)
Jones ball and running skill makes him comparable to any 10 or 12 on the world stage today

Graham Henry after Jones replaced Iestyn Harries yet again
Jones could easily play 12 in any team in the world

BOD
Jones is the best player Wales has produced over the last 15 yrs

Carter (on Jones French player of the yr)
If I had to base my game on any player it would be Stephen Jones who in my mind is Europes best best player

Somehow you saying he is average in the ML and poor on the international stage beggars belief.................. with the exception of a weaker boot he is a quantum leap about Hook in every facit of the game (including yardage gained in the match)

by glamorganalun Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:45 pm

Flyhalf:

How long ago are these references, Hook has only played around 12 games at flyhalf for Wales and he has won MOM against England twice (Wales won) Australia when he took over a disastrous start by Jones to draw the game, Scotland and Ireland this year (we won). How many time has Jones won MOM for Wales in the last 5 years in a key role, I will give you a clue less than 1.

You go on about the Lions, we lost in NZ and SA, we only managed to win a dead rubber in SA thanks to Shane coming back to form.

Jones is over the hill, you are the one talking tosh, I admit the results could have been better had Gatland not picked some duff players the last couple of years and poor tactics but Jones is long past his sell by date. Gatland has wasted 3 years sticking with Jones.

by Dave Parade Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:02 am

I find that statement a bit over zealous as well - as encouraging as it is to recieve endorsments of that nature from world class players, certainly in disagreeing with somones opinion, the easiest way to disprove a notion to be nothing other than a cry for attention or controversy for the sake of the thread is to point out that in no way shape or form is a rugby supporters opinion going to over ride the stats of 100 deserved caps for Wales and test representation for the B&I Lions for consecutive tours - there is no way that a mediocre ML fly half would gain approval by Sir Ian McChechan (sorry sir for mis-spelling your name) to implement his game plan against the Boks in 2009 otherwise Truck 'ead would have been there - when the pressure was on to nail the penalties in the second test, Stephen Jones stepped up as O'Gara has done for Ierland (GS 2009) and Munster, as all great players do. His pasing is sound, his game management spot on, tackling is immense, he never loses the ball in contact, though he himself will admit that his kicking out of hand is the weakest arrow in his quiver. In saying that he's mediocre for ML level is also doing a huge diservice to some increadibly giffted players as time and again, he's forced them to be dropped in his stead.

You don't talk utter nonsense though glamorgan Alun - as you rightly point out Tovey's kicking out of hand is sublime - in defense, but more so in attack.

by Shifty Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:28 am

I find it amazing how any Welsh fan can question Jones worth. Personally I would go with Hook at 10 and Jones on the bench to come on to squeeze out a tight game if needed. Similar to what Ireland do with Sexton and O'Gara.

It's funny but we think of Sexton as new and Hook as an old hand, yet Hook is only 2 weeks older than Sexton and has just turned 26. Hook should be outside half and could play there for 2 more World Cups.

by Dave Parade Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:43 am

Hook's benifits are there for any avid Welsh fan to see, but because he's a higher risk (and yes, we need that element to our game without question) he'll take make more errors which need to be cleaned up by 12 and, I hate to say this (really I do), but with a player like Chavin Benson inside he can get away with more because he gives that bit more comfort an so much that he reads the game and opposition attack so well, and is rock solid in defense. J-Ro is a great athelete, but just hasn't developed that game reading ability as yet and operates within the guidlines that are set - I'm not trying to criticise him heavily here as he is one of our most prolific attacking threats and his 'D' is good, but unless he can get back to playing the way that he did in the first half against Scotland this year we're going to be one dimensional again - he litearly just needs to revise his angles and that would make a huge difference. Idealy for me it's J-Ro / J-Day, Henson and J-HO!

Or even North outside of Henson in that combo.....just a thought

But when Stephen Jones is on the team sheet.......I'm far from bitter.

by welshy824 Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:51 am

I think Henson is a nice guy who is a bit stupid and on form he is a class player, however the problem is he isint at the moment and risking him with hook inside and then SUGGESTING north at 13 is mad, hook at 10 fair enough, but henson not on form, north untested at 13

by Dave Parade Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:57 am

.....as I said just a thought, I certainly wasn't thinking this tournament (that would be suicide) but in future.........ya never know Wink

by welshy824 Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:00 am

yeh but i would rather north on the wing coming inside as another option, we have alot of centers at the moment.

i would like it if henson could get on form for the WC would just allow the welsh backline that other option. maybe 2012

9-knyole
10-hook/priestland
11-north
12-henson
13-Jd2/roberts/scott williams
14- Brew/halfpenny
15-stoddart/halfpenny/priestland

by Dave Parade Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:21 am

we're really missing an out and out FB more than anything - it would be nice if we had a large pacy 10 who would naturaly have the reading of a game to be converted to the FB slot, as when Byrne goes to France, our options are pretty limtied - wht did Shingler go to LI anyway? Would have thought he'd be knocking at the door with the Scarlets especialy as Stephen will not go on forever.....

by PJHolybloke Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:39 am

Jones and Hook without doubt for me - not that it's any of my business; but I couldn't help noticing at least 4 votes for Henson, they must be English WUM''s surely?

by Dave Parade Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:01 am

.......not sure - he has played there, and ultimately, if his fitness (which seems to be the only criteria for the,ahem, 'special' one to make selection) is fine he'll be on the plane to NZ - that aspect would count in his favour sa he COULD cover - but in terms of the poll, i'd agree nobody would actually vote for him to be fly half to start.........surely not.

by manofgwent Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:08 am

I'm in complete agreement with Glamorganalun. Wales have wasted 3 years sticking with Jones.
We are the only nation who's 1st choice fly half is nearly 34. That's my point. I'm not saying Jones hasn't be a good player for Wales. If this was 4 years ago, then yes he would be our best pick, but just look at our options:
Stephen Jones, knocking on 34. Hook, a few games at 10 in a few years. He's the man to cover pretty much any place in the back-line, when Gatland would rather pick him than actually pick somebody who actually plays that position! We have Priestland. He's come on in 2 games and when Gatland could have picked him in a meaningless game v the baabaas, he again went for Jones. Why? 100 caps? Tovey, hasn't been given 1 chance as yet. Biggar. I think that Biggar would have been brought through like Sexton, but Gatland didn't back him enough. Maybe because his record was so poor or he just didn't think that Biggar was up to it.
I do think that Ireland have gone the right way about things. Can you imagine the way the Welsh media would have criticised some of Sexton's perfprmances? But they've stuck with an are looking in a much better shape than Wales are.
We'll soon see what happens in the World Cup. In a group like ours, there will be knocks and somebody will have to step up. But why do we only find out our best team during a competition and not build into these competitions.
And on Stephen Jones record. Even if it's not compared to Hook's, it still is very poor.

by dogtooth Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:13 am

guys.

those clips were ment as a bit tongue in cheek.

hook is our best center, imho. jones is our best FH, imho. and , as others have said, jones has been lauded by players and coaches alike and he is far from a poor player. i am his greatest fan and he should be the man at 10 to help wales along in what i hope will be a successfull rwc camaping.

those clips were all i could find in my late night drunken surfing. it did look like i was having a go at jones, but really i think he is excelent.

i am happy to have invigorated the FH debate but dont think i am knocking any player, or any v2 poster.

how long til we can actually watch some rugby??????? roll on the summer tests Ok!

by Seagultaf Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:06 am

Anyone who thinks Hook has not had a bad game for Wales at 10 look at his last game in the shirt against France. It went like this: Charge down kick = try. Gibbed out of tackle = try. Late tackle and sin bin = another try to France. Subbed by Jones at last!

Talented runner but lacks concentration, his best position is 13. Away from too much responsibility in attack and defence. It will be interesting to see whether he holds down the 10 shirt, long term, in France!

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:33 am

manofgwent wrote:I'm in complete agreement with Glamorganalun. Wales have wasted 3 years sticking with Jones.
We are the only nation who's 1st choice fly half is nearly 34. That's my point. I'm not saying Jones hasn't be a good player for Wales. If this was 4 years ago, then yes he would be our best pick, but just look at our options:
Stephen Jones, knocking on 34. Hook, a few games at 10 in a few years. He's the man to cover pretty much any place in the back-line, when Gatland would rather pick him than actually pick somebody who actually plays that position! We have Priestland. He's come on in 2 games and when Gatland could have picked him in a meaningless game v the baabaas, he again went for Jones. Why? 100 caps? Tovey, hasn't been given 1 chance as yet. Biggar. I think that Biggar would have been brought through like Sexton, but Gatland didn't back him enough. Maybe because his record was so poor or he just didn't think that Biggar was up to it.
I do think that Ireland have gone the right way about things. Can you imagine the way the Welsh media would have criticised some of Sexton's perfprmances? But they've stuck with an are looking in a much better shape than Wales are.
We'll soon see what happens in the World Cup. In a group like ours, there will be knocks and somebody will have to step up. But why do we only find out our best team during a competition and not build into these competitions.
And on Stephen Jones record. Even if it's not compared to Hook's, it still is very poor.

You need to look at the current Flyhalf ages if you think Jones is the only one
Ogara
Wilkinson
Parks
All are there or there about, and all the same age group, and all with a good shout of been 1st choice still. Heck there is only 4 1/2 yrs between Carter and Jones!!.

There big difference between Sexton and Hook is simple, Leinster play him week in week out, whilst the Ospreys play Hook there only as a last resort.The 2010/11 season saw Sexton playing at a very high standard CONSISTENTLY for both club and then country, Hook I cant remember the last time I have seen him string 2 or more games together that have had even his most die hard fans drooling

Why?
1. He is aware of the game - how it progresses and thus he changes the game when and if necessary
2. He is aware of the game - his positioning is sound , and like Carter you rarely see him making the headline runs, but making the yardage then offloading
3. He is aware of the game - his positioning is sound, he makes the right decisions not either running or passing in such a way that the running line is not straightened
3. He is aware of the game - He makes the right decisions, when to kick (low high touch grubber chip), when to pass (quick, delayed, miss-pass), and all these decisions usually gain an advantage
4. He is aware of the game - his positioning is sound hence he nails his tackles easily and consistently
5. He is aware of the game - he knows the modern game doesn't require the running back to come through the 10 channel, hence uses his blindside and his midfield in tandem quite often looping, or misspassing through to the FB for his angled runs
6. He is aware of the game - hence he can operate in CLOSED as well as open play.

However he has never quite had that cocky confidence in his ability unlike Mr "the only position I want to play for Wales is 10" Hook, and this has only come to the fore recently. I would compare Priestland to the Sexton of a few years ago, much more talented and aware than Hook, but with half the confidence of him.

You very rarely see Sexton head down headless chicken running and getting turned over (resulting in penalties or tries against Ireland), the same can be said of Priestland Tovey or dare I say it Jones

To end if I was Gatland I would be telling Jones that after the WC he would be looking at the younger players Tovey, Morgan, Priestland with a view to the 6Ns and beyond

by Shifty Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:59 am

Hook and Henson are different types of player and are better suited to different opposition.
Wales seem to be trying not to make mistakes and playing very rigidly. Though in the last few season Jones seems to have turned into a crash ball centre!

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:35 pm

Seagultaf wrote:Anyone who thinks Hook has not had a bad game for Wales at 10 look at his last game in the shirt against France. It went like this: Charge down kick = try. Gibbed out of tackle = try. Late tackle and sin bin = another try to France. Subbed by Jones at last!

Talented runner but lacks concentration, his best position is 13. Away from too much responsibility in attack and defence. It will be interesting to see whether he holds down the 10 shirt, long term, in France!

I tried to say this earlier when the stats were brought out to justify selection
Hooks last STARTED 4 Won 3
What they don't seem to say is that in those games a certain person came on (when Hooks game went down faster than the titanic), and pulled the game back otherwise it could well have been a different story

A classic example was against us Hook had a superb 30 mins, why because we gave him all the time in the world, when we actually woke up and closed him down then he was less than ordinary to such an extent that Gatland hauled him off in the 65min when we missed three fairly easy chances to score tries. Jones comes on makes a fantastic tackle (ALA Henson/Tait but will never be lauded in the same way) and that raised the Welsh spirit and turned the game back in Wales favour

by nottins_jones Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:29 pm

Biggar at 12? I'd hope not! The feather-weight can't tackle.

Voted Hook, Jones, Priestland. I would like to see Rhys get more game time at fly-half for Wales between now and then. I don't mind seeing him at full back either as he does a very good job down the Scarlets.

Wouldn't say Jones is poor. His form is kinda up and down. Probably not our best option though, I reckon Hook is our best fly-half.

by nottins_jones Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:34 pm

"A classic example was against us Hook had a superb 30 mins, why because we gave him all the time in the world, when we actually woke up and closed him down then he was less than ordinary to such an extent that Gatland hauled him off in the 65min when we missed three fairly easy chances to score tries. Jones comes on makes a fantastic tackle (ALA Henson/Tait but will never be lauded in the same way) and that raised the Welsh spirit and turned the game back in Wales favour"

Turned the game back in Wales favour flyhalf... Sorry pal, although the ref was abysmal the game was never out of Wales' favour. Not sure if what you say is correct either, I believe all our points were scored whilst Hook was on the pitch? And I can't remember but didn't he have two MOTM performances in that tournament... a lot more and recent than Stephen Jones.

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:47 pm

Nottins I was there albeit supporting on this occasion Scotland.

Watch the game again, from 35 mins we started pressurising the welsh centres and closed the half backs down.

I am not saying we deserved to win that game we didnt but from 40 to 65 period we the better team by far, it was a classic example of us (been notorious poor starters) in 2nd gear until it was too late, the ref did have a poor game I agree but if you watched the game he let so much Welsh infringements in the set play and contant offside it was untrue.

Of course I could send you the recording of it if you want. Quite clear to most viewers on thhe day

by nottins_jones Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:50 pm

I know it was your fourth loss to us on the trot flyhalf but there's no need to still be bitter about it. Wink

by manofgwent Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:44 pm

Fly half.
Parks i's about 30/31.
O gara i's now 2nd choice behind sexton, as the Irish management thought that it might be a good idea to bring through and show belief in a young fly half rather thansitting on their hands.
Wilkinson i's also 2nd choice behind flood. Again while wilkinson was injured the English management gave flood a chance and even though wilkinson i's back, they've backed flood and given him belief.
Wales are left with the choice of an ageing 10 who can barely run and a guy who doesn't usually play 10. It they could go for priestland. A man who's spent as much time on the millennium stadium pitch as kathryn Jenkins.

Again. I'm not having a go at Stephen jones. He's been a great servant. I'm having a go at our inept management team.

Look at the polls on this board. Nobody has a clue what our back-line will be. It makes it very exciting but I think it's shocking management.

It makes you wonder if warren gatland forgot it was world cup year!!!!!!

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm

nottins_jones wrote:I know it was your fourth loss to us on the trot flyhalf but there's no need to still be bitter about it.

I KNOW dont rub it it sob Hug

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:13 pm

manofgwent wrote:Fly half.
Parks i's about 30/31.
O gara i's now 2nd choice behind sexton, as the Irish management thought that it might be a good idea to bring through and show belief in a young fly half rather thansitting on their hands.
Wilkinson i's also 2nd choice behind flood. Again while wilkinson was injured the English management gave flood a chance and even though wilkinson i's back, they've backed flood and given him belief.
Wales are left with the choice of an ageing 10 who can barely run and a guy who doesn't usually play 10. It they could go for priestland. A man who's spent as much time on the millennium stadium pitch as kathryn Jenkins.

Again. I'm not having a go at Stephen jones. He's been a great servant. I'm having a go at our inept management team.

Look at the polls on this board. Nobody has a clue what our back-line will be. It makes it very exciting but I think it's shocking management.

It makes you wonder if warren gatland forgot it was world cup year!!!!!!

manofgwent
Jones 34 DOB 08 12 77 (age 33)
Parks 33 DOB 26 05 78 (age 33)
Wilkinson 32 DOB 25 05 79 (age 32)

If you think that Flood is a shoe-in then you better look at his last two england performances and his end of season display, Wilkinson is a close call. As far as Sexton is concerned it was only last season that he was given the nod of OGara however OG did start a few in the 6Ns

Finally most modern 10s are in the mould of Jones / Biggar / Sexton / Flood i.e decision makers and game managers not instictive runners
And I certainly agree with you on Gatlands cluely tactics he plays to joins weakest trait his kicking out of hand

by manofgwent Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:52 pm

I can't believe that jones' restates haven't been mentioned yet!

by Totallybiasedscarlet Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:02 pm

I went with Stevie and Hook. Nobody else comes up to their standards, though Priestland and Tovey look very promising.

by manofgwent Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:34 pm

Flyhalf.
Flood may not be a shoe-in, but I think he'll start. I'm not criticising jones, I'm just criticising how little option the welsh management gave given us. Not just at 10, but at 15. If Byrne picks up a knock, then they'll switch hook to 15.
I for one can't see Wales getting out of their group and gatland will only have himself to blame. He's had time to develop a squad but at the moment it looks thread bare.
What has been the point at picking our strongestsise in the autumn internationals? We've been trying to best weakened southern hemisphere teams and coming up very Shirley, especially in recent years.
I think the gulf between northern and southern hemisphere has widened and this will be proven. The last couple of 6n tournaments have been poor. Exciting but poor.
I just can't see south Africa worrying about scream that i's bring orchestrated by a man who can put others in space, but can't run and his kicking game i's far from good. They will know what to expect.
We should have said goodbye to Stephen jones 2 years ago. I don't care isms Scotland are sticking with parks. We are not scotland!

by manofgwent Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:38 pm

We've also been coming up short! Just read that back. Poor Shirley! Bless her. The only player who didn't come up Shirley was Bennett. He was wide of the mark!!! Shirley... The only person who spends more time of her knees than Ryan jones!!!

by Shane_Williams_Ospreys1 Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:51 pm

stephen jones all the way, reasons hav been said above, i was going to add teh link to the argentina try and ask how predictable that was but flyhalfactory beat me to it. hook maybe post WC.

by manofgwent Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:09 pm

A freak try 2 years ago. Show me 1 other clip of ant bit of magic since then.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:18 pm

Stevie is the guy that allows the magic to take place. Unfortunately, if you shackle him with a kicking gameplan he ain't gonna put your flair players into space like he normally does because he's too busy kicking. Even Barry John would struggle to attack with Gatlands tactics and Mike Phillips at 9!

by Smirnoffpriest Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:45 pm

Totally agree TBS -

also just look how many times he breaks the line or sets players up for the Scarlets - I know it's a totally different competiton - but he does show what he can do in a different game plan

by manofgwent Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:53 pm

Stephen jones. Break the line? For wales? You must be joking. He couldnt go on the outside of oz du randt!!

by jb1973 Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:55 pm

I;d play Jones 10 but I expect hook to start, if stoddart goes i'd expect preistland to miss out if he doesn;t hell go and cover 10 and 15.

Have to say I'd rather preistland at 10 than either jones or hook on last years form

by glamorganalun Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:07 pm

Totally:

I agree with the comments regarding Gatland's poor game plan, I think everyone thinks the same except Gatland and his team of coaches. The problem we have is, Gatland keeps picking Jones who is probably the worst kicking flyhalf in the list above i.e., tactical, touch finders (lack of distance and missing touch) and kick off's/restarts (I can't remember when Wales won any of his kick off's).

If Gatland is going to continue a kicking game like the Ireland game, we are better off with Tovey, Robinson, Biggar or Hook who out played ROG at his own game that I admit surprised me.

Regarding S Jones brings out the best in others, this works well at club level and against teams with lower IRB ranking but the teams above us have much more creative flyhalves as our results show i.e., we have gone down the rankings under Gatland since 2008.

We can't afford to carry S Jones in attack as it puts pressure on the rest of the backs as the opposition back row don't bother with S Jones and go for the centres. If you have a flyhalf that has a go and gets over the gain line he will keep the defence on the back foot when he does not run he gives the guys outside a chance to score.

I just hope Gatland gives the other 10's a chance in the games coming up and not cut them if it does not work out, give them a chance. I am not a great Biggar fan but the way he way treated as a young player was a disgrace (Howley).

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