606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: STARTING BACKROW

First topic message reminder :


All, just putting this one on the main board for 24 hours -


First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

FRONT ROWS:

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is
Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan

This is going to be a toughie a lot of good options here lads! Keep it clean!

O'BRIEN: HCup player of the year, one of the best ballcarriers in the northern hemisphere at the moment. Has played across the backrow to HCup level and has played 6 and 7 at international level. Good hands and offload, great pace. Good defence and can turnover ball as seen in the 6n however can be indisciplined at times and conceed penalties. Not a great lineout option but a good link man. Beats tacklers regulary.
FERRIS: Huge presence at Ulster. One of the strongest men in the squad. Very effective rucker on our ball and also destructive counterrucker. Good lineout option due to heigth and an excellent defender and ball carrier. Intelligent and pacy and another good link player who's discipline is relatively good. has been out for a few months.
RYAN: Primarily a lock but is very athletic and an outstanding lineout option at the tail being 6'7" (I think). Good defence and a solid rucker however is somewhat inexperienced and slightly (not much) out of position at 6. Fairly well disciplined for one so inexperienced and seems to have the right temperment for big games.
WALLACE: Excellent ball carrier and leg drive. Primarily a 7 but can and has played 6 and 8 as well. Not a tradional 7 but Ireland and Munster have survived without one for a number of years, do we need one to excell? Excellent defence and does a lot of unseen work on the ground and at the breakdown, an average lineout option and well disciplined. Also vary pacey but acceleration not as good as it once was.
JENNINGS: Only tradional 7 in our 30 man squad. Recovering from a broken arm and aside from a few injuries has played well this season. Good leader and excellent on the floor. Can be quite indisciplined and is not a great lineout option. Good defence and link man and a very intelligent footballer at reading the game. Hasn't really delivered at international level as such.
HEASLIP: Excellent athletic and powerful no.8. Great defence and ball carrying. Wins a lot of ball on the ground and is good in the air too. Is a team leader however can give away too many penalties. Quick and has a good step can also carry direct and hard. Has been included in a huge number of teams of the tournament in the 6N, HCup and ML over the last number of years.


Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Cheers
Pete

red_stag wrote:Yes in HEC Final O'Brien was poor at 7. Performed brilliantly once reverting to 6.

I'd say a lot of that was down to McL to be honest. The backrow balance didn't really work against Northampton the way it started.

Yes it was down to McLaughlin of course but we have seen O'Brien perform fantastically at 6 when Wallace was at 7.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry but the HCUP 1/4, 1/2 and final were all more intense. More importantly we went into the Magners final after playing all those games, you guys didn't.

FFS, not everything is about Leinster. We all know they are the bestest in the world at everything.

I'm making the point that a game between Munster & Leinster is as good a test to see how a young player performs as a Heineken Cup pool game.

Sorry now i don't mean to say that leinster players or fans didnt take the magners final seriously. because they did and i'd say they seriously wanted to win it, but they did not bring the same intensity as in previous weeks in the heino.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry but the HCUP 1/4, 1/2 and final were all more intense. More importantly we went into the Magners final after playing all those games, you guys didn't.

FFS, not everything is about Leinster. We all know they are the bestest in the world at everything.

I'm making the point that a game between Munster & Leinster is as good a test to see how a young player performs as a Heineken Cup pool game.

So, in that case, when Leinster had Munster at 5 from 5, how do explain how some Munster players managed to find their way into an Irish team?

red_stag wrote:Yes it was down to McLaughlin of course but we have seen O'Brien perform fantastically at 6 when Wallace was at 7.

I think you're reading too much into this. The whole Leinster pack was on the backfoot. The thing with O'Brien is he's lethal off front foot ball but he didn't have the platform to impress in the first half. Heaslip was similarly quiet in the first half and big in the second.

Boyne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry but the HCUP 1/4, 1/2 and final were all more intense. More importantly we went into the Magners final after playing all those games, you guys didn't.

FFS, not everything is about Leinster. We all know they are the bestest in the world at everything.

I'm making the point that a game between Munster & Leinster is as good a test to see how a young player performs as a Heineken Cup pool game.

So, in that case, when Leinster had Munster at 5 from 5, how do explain how some Munster players managed to find their way into an Irish team?

Boyne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry but the HCUP 1/4, 1/2 and final were all more intense. More importantly we went into the Magners final after playing all those games, you guys didn't.

FFS, not everything is about Leinster. We all know they are the bestest in the world at everything.

I'm making the point that a game between Munster & Leinster is as good a test to see how a young player performs as a Heineken Cup pool game.

So, in that case, when Leinster had Munster at 5 from 5, how do explain how some Munster players managed to find their way into an Irish team?

They already had a proven track record at international level or were performing well at Heineken Cup level.

We're discussing whether Murray & Felix Jones are up to international rugby without having played Heineken Cup rugby.

"They already had a proven track record at international level or were performing well at Heineken Cup level."

1 grand slam in how long? Dumped out of the last world cup??

Yeah, fantastic. Lets just persevere with them.

Might bag another triple crown next year and who knows, we might even reach the QF this time!!!

Re: Murray and Jones. Do they have central contracts? No? They must be rubbish so.

Bring back Murphy. Proven at HC level.

Boyne wrote:"They already had a proven track record at international level or were performing well at Heineken Cup level."

1 grand slam in how long? Dumped out of the last world cup??

Yeah, fantastic. Lets just persevere with them.

Might bag another triple crown next year and who knows, we might even reach the QF this time!!!

D24tress wrote:Sorry now i don't mean to say that leinster players or fans didnt take the magners final seriously. because they did and i'd say they seriously wanted to win it, but they did not bring the same intensity as in previous weeks in the heino.

I don't know about that (bringing intensity). A huge number of handling errors were Leinster's downfall that day (i.e., McFaddan could have gone in for a try, Nacewa knocking the ball on).

red_stag wrote:Yes in HEC Final O'Brien was poor at 7. Performed brilliantly once reverting to 6.

The fact that the scrum wasn't peddling backwards when he switched to 6 might have been something to do with it....

I would be surprised if O'Brien would have been any more effective at 6 in that 1st half.

Ironically this is were Ferris really comes into his own. He can do the spectacular when the team is going forward, albeit not always as impressively as o'brien, but when the team is under the cosh he really earns his crust due to his ability to disrupt opposition rucks, pick and go and put in the big hits. He also adds a 4th lineout option which neither Wallace or O'Brien do.

I'm still convinced that when fit, Ferris is by far the best 6 in the NH along with Dusitoir. O'Brien is not at this level when it comes to the dark arts of blindside play. O'Brien's strengths are his explosive pace, strength and power and his uncanny ability to break tackles, something he can do in almost any position if we can get the ball in his hands.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry but the HCUP 1/4, 1/2 and final were all more intense. More importantly we went into the Magners final after playing all those games, you guys didn't.

Wally has played a lot of hcup matches as well as a lot of international rugby which is probably more intense than hcup. The magners final was very intense more intense than the leicester match.

When comparing how the two players did you might want to consider the teams they were playing in as well. Sob has been excellent this year but he has been playing in a team that is preforming. Munster have been a mess this season and were missing their captain, the player who keeps them together and makes them play better than the sum of their parts, and have inferior players to Leinster. When wally was playing for Ireland he put in some excellent display and wasn't outshone by those around them, it also helps when he doesn't have to defend for two people. Heaslip is a better 8 than sob, ferris is probably a better 6 than sob and he isn't helped at ulster with the players around him but still manages to be superb.

So it comes down to wallace v sob, and if people are going to be consistent then sob has never done it at international level at 7 do shouldnt start, but imo that is a s**t argument. Wallace is probably still a better 7 than sob but not by much so he should start. Saying that I don't think many people will be disappointed whoever starts.

And also boyne jennings was very good but motm usually going to the winning team and wallace was very good and probably a bit better than jennings and fully deserved it.

Guys can we stop this Munster/Leinster nonsence about the Magners Final. I watched all the HEC KO stage games involving the Irish teams and the Magners final and there are 3 things I am 100% sure of:

1 The standard or rugby was higher in the HEC than the 6N.

2 The standard or rugby in the Magners final was as high as anything in the HEC this season, bar the Leinster v Toulouse game maybe.

3 Both teams took that Magners final seriously. Munster may have had home advantage and Leinster had a very tough task after playing the HEC final the previous week but Munster were deserving winners on the day.

roddersm wrote:Guys can we stop this Munster/Leinster nonsence about the Magners Final. I watched all the HEC KO stage games involving the Irish teams and the Magners final and there are 3 things I am 100% sure of:

1 The standard or rugby was higher in the HEC than the 6N.

2 The standard or rugby in the Magners final was as high as anything in the HEC this season, bar the Leinster v Toulouse game maybe.

3 Both teams took that Magners final seriously. Munster may have had home advantage and Leinster had a very tough task after playing the HEC final the previous week but Munster were deserving winners on the day.

Can't agree with that, international rugby is a step up.

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Guys can we stop this Munster/Leinster nonsence about the Magners Final. I watched all the HEC KO stage games involving the Irish teams and the Magners final and there are 3 things I am 100% sure of:

1 The standard or rugby was higher in the HEC than the 6N.

2 The standard or rugby in the Magners final was as high as anything in the HEC this season, bar the Leinster v Toulouse game maybe.

3 Both teams took that Magners final seriously. Munster may have had home advantage and Leinster had a very tough task after playing the HEC final the previous week but Munster were deserving winners on the day.

Can't agree with that, international rugby is a step up.

Not always. A lot of the rugby in this year's 6N was dire.

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Guys can we stop this Munster/Leinster nonsence about the Magners Final. I watched all the HEC KO stage games involving the Irish teams and the Magners final and there are 3 things I am 100% sure of:

1 The standard or rugby was higher in the HEC than the 6N.

2 The standard or rugby in the Magners final was as high as anything in the HEC this season, bar the Leinster v Toulouse game maybe.

3 Both teams took that Magners final seriously. Munster may have had home advantage and Leinster had a very tough task after playing the HEC final the previous week but Munster were deserving winners on the day.

Can't agree with that, international rugby is a step up.

Poitrenaud (sp?) said after the Leinster v Toulouse game that the intensity of the game was more like the KO stages of the world cup than club rugby.

Mickado wrote:

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Guys can we stop this Munster/Leinster nonsence about the Magners Final. I watched all the HEC KO stage games involving the Irish teams and the Magners final and there are 3 things I am 100% sure of:

1 The standard or rugby was higher in the HEC than the 6N.

2 The standard or rugby in the Magners final was as high as anything in the HEC this season, bar the Leinster v Toulouse game maybe.

3 Both teams took that Magners final seriously. Munster may have had home advantage and Leinster had a very tough task after playing the HEC final the previous week but Munster were deserving winners on the day.

Can't agree with that, international rugby is a step up.

Poitrenaud (sp?) said after the Leinster v Toulouse game that the intensity of the game was more like the KO stages of the world cup than club rugby.

Of course he said that, hes been dropped from the french team and unlikely to get back in. Some heineken cup games of the highest standard will be the same standard of international rugby but generally it is a step up. The teams are full of higher quality players and the intensity is definitely higher.
Kiwi, I disagree.

valjester wrote:

Mickado wrote:

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Guys can we stop this Munster/Leinster nonsence about the Magners Final. I watched all the HEC KO stage games involving the Irish teams and the Magners final and there are 3 things I am 100% sure of:

1 The standard or rugby was higher in the HEC than the 6N.

2 The standard or rugby in the Magners final was as high as anything in the HEC this season, bar the Leinster v Toulouse game maybe.

3 Both teams took that Magners final seriously. Munster may have had home advantage and Leinster had a very tough task after playing the HEC final the previous week but Munster were deserving winners on the day.

Can't agree with that, international rugby is a step up.

Poitrenaud (sp?) said after the Leinster v Toulouse game that the intensity of the game was more like the KO stages of the world cup than club rugby.

Of course he said that, hes been dropped from the french team and unlikely to get back in. Some heineken cup games of the highest standard will be the same standard of international rugby but generally it is a step up. The teams are full of higher quality players and the intensity is definitely higher.
Kiwi, I disagree.

Bull. Nobody knows but the players. Armchari jockies can only guess and trott out chiches and repeat stuff they hear...

There was nothing in the 6N this season that came even remotely close to the quality and intensity of Leinster v Toulouse, Munster v Leinster or even Leinster vs Saints. Not even close.

Of course he said that, hes been dropped from the french team and unlikely to get back in

I don't get how the second part of that sentence validates the first part. He has played in a world cup semi final you know?

Can we cut out the provincial stuff lads, it's going to ruin this thread and indeed the series.

Mickado wrote:

Of course he said that, hes been dropped from the french team and unlikely to get back in

I don't get how the second part of that sentence validates the first part. He has played in a world cup semi final you know?

BOD, POC and others in the Irish team always talk of the step up required to play international rugby. Maybe this years six nations wasn't the best but the quality of the ireland new zealand match was above anything in the hec. Maybe some hec games were at the intensity but usually they aren't.

Knockout games in the HCup generally are international standard I think.

I will also say I thought the quality of the 6Nations was very, very poor.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Can we cut out the provincial stuff lads, it's going to ruin this thread and indeed the series.

Come off it Pete we're Irish not Welsh!