606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: STARTING BACKROW

First topic message reminder :


All, just putting this one on the main board for 24 hours -


First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

FRONT ROWS:

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is
Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan

This is going to be a toughie a lot of good options here lads! Keep it clean!

O'BRIEN: HCup player of the year, one of the best ballcarriers in the northern hemisphere at the moment. Has played across the backrow to HCup level and has played 6 and 7 at international level. Good hands and offload, great pace. Good defence and can turnover ball as seen in the 6n however can be indisciplined at times and conceed penalties. Not a great lineout option but a good link man. Beats tacklers regulary.
FERRIS: Huge presence at Ulster. One of the strongest men in the squad. Very effective rucker on our ball and also destructive counterrucker. Good lineout option due to heigth and an excellent defender and ball carrier. Intelligent and pacy and another good link player who's discipline is relatively good. has been out for a few months.
RYAN: Primarily a lock but is very athletic and an outstanding lineout option at the tail being 6'7" (I think). Good defence and a solid rucker however is somewhat inexperienced and slightly (not much) out of position at 6. Fairly well disciplined for one so inexperienced and seems to have the right temperment for big games.
WALLACE: Excellent ball carrier and leg drive. Primarily a 7 but can and has played 6 and 8 as well. Not a tradional 7 but Ireland and Munster have survived without one for a number of years, do we need one to excell? Excellent defence and does a lot of unseen work on the ground and at the breakdown, an average lineout option and well disciplined. Also vary pacey but acceleration not as good as it once was.
JENNINGS: Only tradional 7 in our 30 man squad. Recovering from a broken arm and aside from a few injuries has played well this season. Good leader and excellent on the floor. Can be quite indisciplined and is not a great lineout option. Good defence and link man and a very intelligent footballer at reading the game. Hasn't really delivered at international level as such.
HEASLIP: Excellent athletic and powerful no.8. Great defence and ball carrying. Wins a lot of ball on the ground and is good in the air too. Is a team leader however can give away too many penalties. Quick and has a good step can also carry direct and hard. Has been included in a huge number of teams of the tournament in the 6N, HCup and ML over the last number of years.


Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Cheers
Pete

There have been too many good Irish players who have been shunned, Casey, Jennings, Murphy to an extent, Downey

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:There have been too many good Irish players who have been shunned, Casey, Jennings, Murphy to an extent, Downey

Shunned isn't really the right word though is it? They have all been 'unlucky' to be behind better players, or in murphy's case, a safer player. Bob Casey is behind two lions, maybe he was unlucky not to have more chances of making the squad but when he got his chance in 2009 he looked way off the pace and that was against canada and the usa.

Ah he was getting on a bit by that stage

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ah he was getting on a bit by that stage

Yeah but some people were calling for him to be in squads this year despite the fact that he wasn't lasting 80 minutes for london irish. I think george hook was one of them which tells you all you need to know about that man and his rugby 'knowledge'

Cheers Kiwi

So the voting is now open again, now that this is on the main board for the next 24hours

Tomorrow I will do the outhalves article, the following day centre and the follwing back3

The team so far is

Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan
?-?-?
Reddan

As such the voting stands Heaslip, Wallace and Ferris in the lead but....

Is Ferris's lack of game time a problem?
Is SOB too good to leave out?
Does Wallace have 80mins left in him?

I believe that Ferris, Heaslip and O'Brien presents our best back row both individually and collectively.

Heaslip must start at 8, Ferris is our best blindside and O'Brien is arguably our best player full stop. The balance is as good if not better than any backrow we pick which doesn't include Jennings at openside in my opinion.

Davd Wallace would be on the bench and he provides the capacity to bring immense impact from the bench in any of the back row positions.

That said I would be perfectly happy with almost any combination of Wallace, Ferris, O'Brien or even Jennings on the flanks as they are all fantastic players with different skill sets.

I don't know why Rodders, but I always feel that SOB gets somewhat stiffled at 7. He is at his best when carrying without a doubt and at 7 he doesn't seem to carry as much. However with Ferris at 6 you have a ruck hitting machine almost in the mould of a 7.

I really don't know who to choose. If Ferris is fit I'd want him at 6.

Mickado wrote:The crucial difference between Jennings and Mick O’Driscoll is that Jennings is a starter for Leinster, he was out injured and Kevin McLaughlin played himself into the team which is fair enough but Jennings is one of the first names on the teamsheet. O’Driscoll is not, and never was a starter for Munster (outside of injuries).

Sin, all the stats about when he has last played for Ireland go to prove is that he’s shunned at international level, we already knew that.

OK then, if Keith Gleeson was still playing professional rugby, Jennings would not be the first name on the Leinster teamsheet.

Keith Gleeson got a few caps for Ireland (some would say that he should have got more), but the facts are that David Wallace was / is too fine a player to leave out of any side.

I'd have Ferris/Wallace/Heaslip starting with SOB on the bench.

One of the main reasons for starting Ferris ahead of SOB would be to see how long Ferris can last without getting injured!

Yeah Ferris seems like a walking disaster to his own body. I think SOB is a greater impact sub, well tbh I think SOB is a better player than Wallace but he never seems to do as well at 7 as he does at 6/8

Sin é wrote:
Keith Gleeson got a few caps for Ireland (some would say that he should have got more), but the facts are that David Wallace was / is too fine a player to leave out of any side.

Well the Lions dropped him and he was ignored for periods by Ireland too in favour of guys like Johnny O'Connor so I'm not sure you could say no team can leave him out?

I think Wallace is a fantastic player but so are Heaslip, Wallace and O'Brien.

Out of that 3 we have 1 specialist 8 (Heaslip), 1 specialist 6 (Ferris) and two utility back rows (O'Brien and Wallace).

In my opinion you have to decide who out of Wallace or O'Brien to start. There's a fair shout for Wallace but I would give the nod to O'Brien given his age and more consistant performances this year.

Pete I've seen O'Brien putting in some cracking displays at 7. I think it depends who's on the other flank. Kevin Mcglaughlin didn't have a great HEC final however if Ferris is fit he will be able to both hit rucks and carry ball, freeing O'Brien to run the wider channels and off 2nd phase ball.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah Ferris seems like a walking disaster to his own body. I think SOB is a greater impact sub, well tbh I think SOB is a better player than Wallace but he never seems to do as well at 7 as he does at 6/8

If SOB was a better player than Wallace, he'd be starting at 7. Wally would have been a phenomenal 8 but was a bit unlucky that there were no decent 7s around and he was the most capable of doing a good job there.

It should be noted also that Wally at the age of 35 got a central contract to play international for another year. If SOB was reckoned to be good enough, he would be the one who would have got a central contract, not Wally.

You do understand that, from the outside looking in, it looks crazy for anybody to contemplate why some irish fans are even toying with the idea of leaving SOB out of the 1st 15.

Not only is he out best 6, 7 and probably 8... he is our best player full stop.

He is...

- a better 8 than Heaslip
- a better 6 than Ferris
- a better 7 than Wallace

Wallace is old. Sorry, he is. Probably (BOD included) our most consistant and best player of the last 10 years. Yes, he's that good.

But this is the WC. The last 10 years counts for nothing.

There is allot of discussion here as to how and why SOB needs to learn how to play 7. Ball - oxen.

Ferris is the one who needs to learn how to play at 7. He is injury prone and will have a short year, so it is incumbent on HIM to make the switch. He is not a better ball carrier than SOB. Sorry, hes not.

If I had my way, he'd be primed for covering the 2nd row in case we got into trouble there.

In fact, if POC or DOC got injured, I'd put Ferris into lock.

Imagine a back 5 of

POC Ferris
Wallace Heaslip SOB

Ferris will be lucky to get 20 mins anyway so its all academic.

"If SOB was a better player than Wallace, he'd be starting at 7. "

How do you kow who will be starting at 7!!!???

Wallace is old. But is he too old?

Yeah the thought of SOB playing with another backrow who can help at the rucks warms the heart. Leaving him free to roam as such. That's what he does best IMO he comes around the corner at rucks and at pace hits the gainline and goes over it.

Kiwi- Is this no longer on the main page??

Sin E seriously. Ive never heard of anyone with a more blatent bias towards Munster players

You are right. SOB is not good enough to get a central contract. Not up to "Wallys" standard......

"If SOB was good enough"..... what a freaking ridiculous thing to say.....

Its as if you completely blanked last season from your memory...

"Its as if you completely blanked last season from your memory..."

Sorry, I forgot where you are from.

Ok Boyne chill the beans a bit there.

Attack his (weak) arguement not him

Just sick of it really. When he goes around saying thick things like "If SOB was good enough"......

Pathetic. No sign of getting behind everyone in the team. Just an opportunity to put the boot in.

The selective stats is what gets me! Oh well.

I think everyone is pretty much decided on Heaslip at 8. Ferris at 6????

Whata re peoples thoughts on 1F starting at 6?

Boyne theres actually some sense in that rant but you are wrong on a few accounts.

O'Brien is not a better 8 than Heaslip, he's not a better 6 than Ferris but he MIGHT be a better 7(or 6.5) than Wallace.

Yes he is the best ball carrier BUT he is not as good in the line out as Ferris or Heaslip. He is not as good a tackler as ferris, either in volume or ferocity. He doesn't push in the scrums as much as Ferris nor is he as effective in rucks or mauls. He also doesn't have as good hands or footballing ability as Heaslip nor is he as good on the deck.

Wallace is not too old for international rugby. In fact his performance against England was arguably his best in an International jersey. However he did not have a great season for Munster overall whereas O'Brien has been immense and Ferris was playing the best rugby of his career until he got injured. Heaslip has really bounced back to his best after a dip and is the only specialist no8.

Heaslip and O'Brien must start so it comes down to a direct choice between Ferris, Wallace and jennings. There are strong arguments for all 3 but I genuinly believe, if fit, Ferris brings more than the other 2, no matter what Flank he plays on.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Keith Gleeson got a few caps for Ireland (some would say that he should have got more), but the facts are that David Wallace was / is too fine a player to leave out of any side.

Well the Lions dropped him and he was ignored for periods by Ireland too in favour of guys like Johnny O'Connor so I'm not sure you could say no team can leave him out?

I think Wallace is a fantastic player but so are Heaslip, Wallace and O'Brien.

Out of that 3 we have 1 specialist 8 (Heaslip), 1 specialist 6 (Ferris) and two utility back rows (O'Brien and Wallace).

In my opinion you have to decide who out of Wallace or O'Brien to start. There's a fair shout for Wallace but I would give the nod to O'Brien given his age and more consistant performances this year.

Pete I've seen O'Brien putting in some cracking displays at 7. I think it depends who's on the other flank. Kevin Mcglaughlin didn't have a great HEC final however if Ferris is fit he will be able to both hit rucks and carry ball, freeing O'Brien to run the wider channels and off 2nd phase ball.

Wally played in all 3 Lions tests in SA. He is also the most capped Irish backrower (71 caps). Johnny O'Connor has 12 caps. Keith Gleeson has 27.

200th Cap for Munster in the Magners Grand Final. All contenders for his position were on the pitch (Jennings & SOB) - Wally picked up his MOTM and he deserved it (unlike when SOB picked it up against Italy when Parisse should have got it).

Boyne wrote:Just sick of it really. When he goes around saying thick things like "If SOB was good enough"......

Pathetic. No sign of getting behind everyone in the team. Just an opportunity to put the boot in.

Boyne as a 7 is O'Brien good enough. To me he isn't a good enough 7. The fact he won a man of match award there doesn't convince me. As a 6/8 yes I agree with you. But he can go missing when playing 7

I think rodders is right, because

a) it gives us good balance of rucking, defence, atleticism and carrying
b) good lineout mix
c) if Ferris can hit those rucks like he does it lets SOB off free to carry more
(obviously he has to hit rucks too)
d) I think SOB, Ferris and Heaslip are all better than Wallace.

Stag- I think he goes missing at 7 because McL plays 6 when he is at 7 and McL doesn't hit the rucks as well as jennings does leaving SOB free-er to carry.#

Realistically in a traditional sense Ferris would be more of the 7 that SOB would be just playing on the other side of the scrum

Boyne wrote:Just sick of it really. When he goes around saying thick things like "If SOB was good enough"......

Pathetic. No sign of getting behind everyone in the team. Just an opportunity to put the boot in.

Maybe you should practice as you preach (and maybe cut the personal abuse as well).

Facts are that SOB has played his best rugby at 6 for both Leinster & Ireland. When Jennings has been fit, he has started at 7 for Leinster.

If he was viewed as a successor to David Wallace at 7, Wally would not have got a central contract at the age of 35 to play international rugby for another year.

And Wally got MOTM against Leinster in the final because he is a better player than SOB???

Wally got a central contract because SOB is not good enough????

Most people (from outside Munster) would argue that Jennings was the real MOTM.... but you gloss over that???

Leinster had aa titanic battle against NH the week befire... have you forgotten about that???

Wally didnt do much to help Munster getting booted out of the HC in the South of France... or being savaged by, erm, Harlequins in mighty TP......

You have an extremely selective memory and you are an extremely biased fan without a real grip on the game.

A dangerous combination.

I think SOB may be a better 7 at the moment. I feel very confident that in the future he will be a better 7 than Wallace was before him.

If SOB has guys who are doing some of the donkey work (not saying he won't do his fair share) then I think he can be let loose at 7 to carry the ball which is what he does best.

Ferris is one of the best players we have at securing our own ball quickly due to his strength and I think that this facet will compliment SOB really well.

Well Boyne, explain to me why Wally got a central contract at the age of 35 considering the number of fairly handy backrowers that Ireland have and how the IRFU have been cutting back on central contracts.

When abouts did he get the contract sin?

Also, pretty obviously because he is in the top 4 backrowers in the country and if one of them gets injured he can slot in to the backrow fairly seemlessly.

that was an easy explanation wasn't it.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:When abouts did he get the contract sin?

Also, pretty obviously because he is in the top 4 backrowers in the country and if one of them gets injured he can slot in to the backrow fairly seemlessly.

that was an easy explanation wasn't it.

Gordon D'Arcy is our main no. 12, is 4 years younger and he hasn't got a central contract.

He got a new central contract around the same time that O'Brien got his Leinster one.

Sin é wrote:Well Boyne, explain to me why Wally got a central contract at the age of 35 considering the number of fairly handy backrowers that Ireland have and how the IRFU have been cutting back on central contracts.

Perhaps because he's a terrific player, as I stated before. I dont think it has anything to do with SOB.... as much as you'd love it to be..

Grow up a wee bit, will ya?

Darcy doesn't look like he will last that much longer really though?

If I had to guess which one would be out the door first it would be Darcy. I fully expect him to lose his place at Leinster within the next 6 months or so and with ireland soon after that.

Check out this picture...

http://www.sportsfile.com/id/535171/

SOB is on the step above "Wally".... must mean SOB is riding Wallys wife.... yes, it must mean that.

If he wasnt riding his wife, why would he be on the step above Wally.... yeah.... makes sense...

When O'Brien isn't making bulldozing runs from 7 he's "quiet", when Wally isn't making bulldozing runs from 7 he's "doing the unseen work".

David Wallace is one of my favourite players of all time, but O'Brien right now is a better player. He is the de facto best player in Europe in fact, leaving him out of the team would be mildly hysterical.

SOB is a better 6 then ferris this year
and has been on par with wallace at 7

Sin e the heineken cup is all that players should be rated on really with regard to international teams in my view cause its alot more physical and intense

The 1/4 1/2 and final of the heino were all about 3 or 4 times more intense then the magners final

D24tress wrote:SOB is a better 6 then ferris this year
and has been on par with wallace at 7

Sin e the heineken cup is all that players should be rated on really with regard to international teams in my view cause its alot more physical and intense

The 1/4 1/2 and final of the heino were all about 3 or 4 times more intense then the magners final

Agree unless there is a specialt talent a la Jones or Murray

Mickado wrote:When O'Brien isn't making bulldozing runs from 7 he's "quiet", when Wally isn't making bulldozing runs from 7 he's "doing the unseen work".

David Wallace is one of my favourite players of all time, but O'Brien right now is a better player. He is the de facto best player in Europe in fact, leaving him out of the team would be mildly hysterical.

+1

Mickado wrote:When O'Brien isn't making bulldozing runs from 7 he's "quiet", when Wally isn't making bulldozing runs from 7 he's "doing the unseen work".

David Wallace is one of my favourite players of all time, but O'Brien right now is a better player. He is the de facto best player in Europe in fact, leaving him out of the team would be mildly hysterical.

SOB is not being left out of the team. Just that at 7, Wally is ahead of him

By the way, Wally penned his new contract extension during the 6Ns this year, so its not as if the IRFU would not have seen how SOB was performing at 7 in Europe this year.

I don't think I've heard anyone say that Wally does the unseen work. Mostly he is seen making lots of tackles if he isn't making bulldozing runs.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

D24tress wrote:SOB is a better 6 then ferris this year
and has been on par with wallace at 7

Sin e the heineken cup is all that players should be rated on really with regard to international teams in my view cause its alot more physical and intense

The 1/4 1/2 and final of the heino were all about 3 or 4 times more intense then the magners final

Agree unless there is a specialt talent a la Jones or Murray

But how do you know they are special talents if they havent been tested at that level
Or when a team Quins did bring a level of intensity they were beaten off the park

Boyne wrote:

Sin é wrote:Well Boyne, explain to me why Wally got a central contract at the age of 35 considering the number of fairly handy backrowers that Ireland have and how the IRFU have been cutting back on central contracts.

Perhaps because he's a terrific player, as I stated before. I dont think it has anything to do with SOB.... as much as you'd love it to be..

Grow up a wee bit, will ya?

Could you give me a link to where you said he was a terrific player. All you have done is slagged him (and me) off.

It has something to do with SOB in that the Ireland management don't view SOB as Wally's successor. SOB should be grateful for that as he could be a world class 6, but he won't be a world class 7 (or 8).

Didn't realise you owned a crystal ball sin.

Boyne wrote:You do understand that, from the outside looking in, it looks crazy for anybody to contemplate why some irish fans are even toying with the idea of leaving SOB out of the 1st 15.

Not only is he out best 6, 7 and probably 8... he is our best player full stop.

He is...

- a better 8 than Heaslip
- a better 6 than Ferris
- a better 7 than Wallace

Wallace is old. Sorry, he is. Probably (BOD included) our most consistant and best player of the last 10 years. Yes, he's that good.

But this is the WC. The last 10 years counts for nothing.

There is allot of discussion here as to how and why SOB needs to learn how to play 7. Ball - oxen.

Ferris is the one who needs to learn how to play at 7. He is injury prone and will have a short year, so it is incumbent on HIM to make the switch. He is not a better ball carrier than SOB. Sorry, hes not.

If I had my way, he'd be primed for covering the 2nd row in case we got into trouble there.

In fact, if POC or DOC got injured, I'd put Ferris into lock.

Imagine a back 5 of

POC Ferris
Wallace Heaslip SOB

Ferris will be lucky to get 20 mins anyway so its all academic.

There you go, Stevie Wonder.

D24tress wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

D24tress wrote:SOB is a better 6 then ferris this year
and has been on par with wallace at 7

Sin e the heineken cup is all that players should be rated on really with regard to international teams in my view cause its alot more physical and intense

The 1/4 1/2 and final of the heino were all about 3 or 4 times more intense then the magners final

Agree unless there is a specialt talent a la Jones or Murray

But how do you know they are special talents if they havent been tested at that level
Or when a team Quins did bring a level of intensity they were beaten off the park

Come off it, the Munster v Leinster games are every bit as intense as a Heineken Cup game. Are you seriously trying to claim that the game in the Aviva before the Heineken Cup last October wasn't intense (Leinster won by 4pts), or the game in Thomond when Munster won by 1pt are not intense?

Maybe there was a time when Munster didn't treat the games too seriously, and maybe Leinster are getting to a stage when they don't take them too seriously, but I don't think that has happened yet.

Sin é wrote:

D24tress wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

D24tress wrote:SOB is a better 6 then ferris this year
and has been on par with wallace at 7

Sin e the heineken cup is all that players should be rated on really with regard to international teams in my view cause its alot more physical and intense

The 1/4 1/2 and final of the heino were all about 3 or 4 times more intense then the magners final

Agree unless there is a specialt talent a la Jones or Murray

But how do you know they are special talents if they havent been tested at that level
Or when a team Quins did bring a level of intensity they were beaten off the park

Come off it, the Munster v Leinster games are every bit as intense as a Heineken Cup game. Are you seriously trying to claim that the game in the Aviva before the Heineken Cup last October wasn't intense (Leinster won by 4pts), or the game in Thomond when Munster won by 1pt are not intense?

Maybe there was a time when Munster didn't treat the games too seriously, and maybe Leinster are getting to a stage when they don't take them too seriously, but I don't think that has happened yet.

Did you not see the Heineken Cup final this year?

Sorry but the HCUP 1/4, 1/2 and final were all more intense. More importantly we went into the Magners final after playing all those games, you guys didn't.

Yes in HEC Final O'Brien was poor at 7. Performed brilliantly once reverting to 6.

Boyne wrote:

Boyne wrote:You do understand that, from the outside looking in, it looks crazy for anybody to contemplate why some irish fans are even toying with the idea of leaving SOB out of the 1st 15.

Not only is he out best 6, 7 and probably 8... he is our best player full stop.

He is...

- a better 8 than Heaslip
- a better 6 than Ferris
- a better 7 than Wallace

Wallace is old. Sorry, he is. Probably (BOD included) our most consistant and best player of the last 10 years. Yes, he's that good.

But this is the WC. The last 10 years counts for nothing.

There is allot of discussion here as to how and why SOB needs to learn how to play 7. Ball - oxen.

Ferris is the one who needs to learn how to play at 7. He is injury prone and will have a short year, so it is incumbent on HIM to make the switch. He is not a better ball carrier than SOB. Sorry, hes not.

If I had my way, he'd be primed for covering the 2nd row in case we got into trouble there.

In fact, if POC or DOC got injured, I'd put Ferris into lock.

Imagine a back 5 of

POC Ferris
Wallace Heaslip SOB

Ferris will be lucky to get 20 mins anyway so its all academic.

There you go, Stevie Wonder.

Probably missed it because I was so amused at you thinking that Ferris could become an international 2nd row!

You forgot to highlight the bit where you dismiss him in the line afterwards.
"But this is the WC. The last 10 years counts for nothing."

red_stag wrote:Yes in HEC Final O'Brien was poor at 7. Performed brilliantly once reverting to 6.

He was poor, was he? Ok so.....