606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: STARTING BACK 3

First topic message reminder :

First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is

Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan
Ferris-Heaslip-Wallace
Reddan-Sexton
Darcy-O'Driscoll

This will be a toughie...brace yourselves......

EARLS: One of the quickest members in the squad if not the quickest. Excellent ballance, acceleration and agility, and thus a fantastic broken field runner. Primarily a winger due to his pace and exceptional finishing skills, he has a great strike rate. Good tackler and also a good kicker of the ball. Can play 15 but hasn't really been tested in this position for Ireland under the high ball, can be a worry in this area but hopefully that facet of his game has improved.
BOWE: One of the best finishers in Europe. Deceptively quick and strong can ride a tackle for a few metres or put his foot on the gas. Fairly good defence and also a very good fielder of the ball. runs great lines off the halfbacks in the lineout and off the centres in general play. Is also good at running support lines and is an adept offloader himself. One weakness would be his kicking game is not of a very high standard.
TRIMBLE: The most physical back 3 player we have. Is excellent in contact and can pump the legs well in the tackle area, also has a good fend off. His skills are much improved from passing, to fielding, to kicking although they may not be as good as those of other back3 players, his offloading is the most improved IMO. he runs good lines off his wing and could be a go to man due to his strength and power.
MCFADDEN: Another very quick player who can also play in the centres. has good leg drive in the tackle and breaks more than you would think he should. Good kicker and fielder. Inexperienced and hasn't had that much game time for either Leinster or Ireland. Strong in defence and appears to have big game tempermeant (Clermont game for example) but a lot of question marks about how much of his potential he will live up to.
JONES: Has been a star player this season at Munster and has showed incredible mental strength in overcoming injuries. Fast, reliable, strong in defence, on form, has vision, good skills are all things you would say about him. Seems safe enough (not Kearney) under the high ball but much more elusive going forward with the ball. And has joined the line well over the past number of months showing good hands. Untried at HCup level as well as International level however.
KEARNEY: Has been out for over 9 months and wasn't in great form pre that injury. Is probably the best player under the highball in the world over the last 3 years or so. Is very fast in a straight line and can kick the ball further than any other Irish player (Sexton and ROG possibly excluded). His attacking play however is not great and too often he runs straight into contact from deep, doesn't pass or offload often enough and when joining the line can be selfish. His defence can be questionable at times too.

Enjoy

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote:How would you describe Jones and Earls last two performances at fullback?

Irrelevant.

But yet Kearney's 2009 performances are?

I clicked post too soon. Read my full answer.

I know its double standards and to be honest I couldn't give a monkeys. There will be times this is the case. I believe form book goes out the window come a World Cup and its down to team combinations.

Don't think that would work Val, mentioned my reasons before think it's best not to get into it let me just say I don't see earls as a 13, and i think i've dug in my heels on this opinion sorry.

I'd have earls at 15 or Jones if he played really well in all games bar S.Africa where I would have Kearney or if the weather was for hurricane!

red_stag wrote:Depends on the game Pete. If we play SA and Morne Steyn in the 1/4 final I know who I want to see.

Maybe Steyn might be a tad less inclined to kick the ball away if we have our best brokenfield runner at full back? Remember two things here:

- the breakdown laws now encourage counderattacking so the advantage will be with the counter attackers not against them

- Kearneys boot will not be the weapon it was for the lions as the springbok lineout is much better than ours, unless Simon Shaw becomes IQ in time for the WC that is.

red_stag wrote: I believe form book goes out the window come a World Cup and its down to team combinations.

So did Eddie O'Sullivan....

Rodders, agreed and yet I wonder about the defensive positioning of our other options. I understand your point we need counter attackers; we have them. I have faith Kearney can do more than catch and kick and he is an experienced fullback who brings alternative options too.

I can't see a single reason for not bringing him.

roddersm wrote:So did Eddie O'Sullivan....

He also picked the same XV for about 2 years, developed no squad depth and did dreadful preparation for the 2007 RWC.

The fact we are even debating this shows how far we've come.

If Steyn saw earls or Jones at 15 he would be encouraged to kick some bombs. just makes sense. If he saw kearney he'd try and kick corners probably and make Kearney kick (with no angle) or run (with no space)

I'd love to see jones at 15 he is good enough to do it in a WC so its
14 Bowe
15 Jones
11 Earls for me
Theres a case for both Earls or Kearney to start vs S.A. but I'd be comfertable with any of the 3
McFadden on the bench

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:Depends on the game Pete. If we play SA and Morne Steyn in the 1/4 final I know who I want to see.

Maybe Steyn might be a tad less inclined to kick the ball away if we have our best brokenfield runner at full back? Remember two things here:

- the breakdown laws now encourage counderattacking so the advantage will be with the counter attackers not against them

- Kearneys boot will not be the weapon it was for the lions as the springbok lineout is much better than ours, unless Simon Shaw becomes IQ in time for the WC that is.

Shaw isn't exactly great in the lineout.
The thing about south africa is that there chasers are very good so whoever is at fullback is going to be under a lot of pressure as the will get the ball and habana. I think jones would deal quite comfortably with this, earls I'm less sure about but I think he has improved a lot in this regard. And if he caught the ball earls could do a lot of damage.

Pete; I'd have no worries with earls at 13 if bod is outside him. If it were to happen earls would probably wear 12 and defend at 12 but attack from 13. Like I said its not going to happen but it would be away of putting all the players on the field.

red_stag wrote:I have faith Kearney can do more than catch and kick and he is an experienced fullback who brings alternative options too.

Stag I think really this is the main point we disagree on. If I had this faith then I would be selecting him too. I have more faith in Felix jones and Keith Earls to do what we need and more.

In terms of reasons not to take him. It means someone else who has been playing well will miss out. We have a lot of excellent outside backs so I see no reason to bring along a player who has question marks over form and fitness. The magners league is the place to recapture form not World cup warm up games.

red_stag wrote:
The fact we are even debating this shows how far we've come.

I certainly agree with that stag!

The World Cup warm up games are there to test the options we have. Kearney is an option. And once again I'm not interested in form alone. Form is one factor to get players into the World Cup training squad. Experience is another. Jones and Kearney made it into the extended World Cup squad for different reasons. From here on its about the options that work best for us and we test these out in the World Cup warm up games.

Like I said Val, i completely disagree with the idea of earls at 13 but respect that you have a different opinion.

Yeah kick chase is one of S.Africa's major weapons isn't it?

I'd have more faith in Kearney making the catch but a lot more faith in earls or Jones managing to turn the situation into a positive counterattack

Stag form and experience are just cliches. Someone is only either a good rugby player, playing well, or they aren't.

As I've said before most of our side don't have the experience of even reaching a world cup quarter final so I wouldn't get too hung up on experience.

VOTE UPDATE:

Jones catching Earls (15) and Trimble (11) only 2 votes in it

roddersm wrote:Stag form and experience are just cliches.

Then why all the fuss about Kearney being off form??

BTW - I haven't voted in this poll as it is a diverse position with many options.

Earls interview on joe.ie

“A lot of people have asked me that question (his best position) and have said I played better when I was on the wing, but I’m telling them I wasn’t fit when I was playing in the centre for Munster earlier in the season," he said.

“I didn’t have much of a pre-season and didn’t have much time to work on my fitness. I was overweight because of a lack of exercise and I was struggling through games.

“When I came into the Six Nations, I was eating proper food and I got my diet right, lost a Poopie of weight and started getting my confidence back. Playing on the wing for Ireland, Deccie has given me a bit of a free role to go wherever I want and to get in and around the centre close to Johnny or Rog, whichever of them is playing, and run off them.”

http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-features/skys-the-limit-for-high-flying-earls-2-0014191-1

From reading that, I'd say the England game with Earls at fullback was a one off. I'd also say that he is first choice back-up centre.

red_stag wrote:

Then why all the fuss about Kearney being off form??

The fuss is not that he's off form. The fuss is that he hasn't played all season and when he last did wasn't able to display the skill set needed under the new rules.

That's not lack of form, that is lack of ability.

Well the idea is to select who you want to see (as of right now) to start against Australia.

All votes get added up and then that's 606v2's opinion poll.

If Earls lets say voted the highest at 15 and 11 the one that had more votes would be his position, if it was a draw the highest second place in each of those positions would take that place and earls the other.

And my point is that when he last played few if any of our players could display the skills set needed under the new rules. 2010 was a poor year for Ireland.

Its nonsense IMO to claim Kearney has a "lack of ability".

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well the idea is to select who you want to see (as of right now) to start against Australia.

Against Australia - Trimble, Earls and Bowe - McFadden on the bench (if Fitz isn't an option)

Sin é wrote:http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-features/skys-the-limit-for-high-flying-earls-2-0014191-1

From reading that, I'd say the England game with Earls at fullback was a one off. I'd also say that he is first choice back-up centre.

And from reading the article and the above comment I'd say you didn't read the article.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Like I said Val, i completely disagree with the idea of earls at 13 but respect that you have a different opinion.

Yeah kick chase is one of S.Africa's major weapons isn't it?

I'd have more faith in Kearney making the catch but a lot more faith in earls or Jones managing to turn the situation into a positive counterattack

I just feel earls gets slated unfairly because he isn't bod. The guy has struggled with injuries and confidence yet has performed quite well in the hec and was, imo, outstanding at 13 against wales. In the first half of this season he clearly wasn't fit and was rushed back by munster. Then it seemed like the only attacking plan munster had was give him the ball and see if he could make something out of nothing, its very hard to do anything when the other team knows you're going to get the ball everytime so they can just hammer you. He is never going to be a leader like 13 in the mould of bod but he can become a world class player there. Like you say you disagree so I'll leave it.

Pietersen and habana are two of the best wingers in the world at it, which makes sense when thats what their game is based on. I think jones would have no problem catching it, he is very good in the air, and earls has improved a lot so if he is the best option then kidney will put his faith in him. The longer kearney is out the worse his form gets but I think we have had this argument tomorrow.

Besides we won't be playing south africa after we top the group.

For me Earls will be our future 13. I don't agree with it but I see him there.

Munster lack centres and have some very good wingers.

red_stag wrote:

Its nonsense IMO to claim Kearney has a "lack of ability".

No it isn't. In my opinion he does not have the ability to see space and launch an attack from full back, at least not to the level that the top full backs can. He had a full season to show he could and wasn't able to. Earls and Jones have shown they can. Geordan Murphy has the vision but not the physicality or pace for international rugby in my opinion.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-features/skys-the-limit-for-high-flying-earls-2-0014191-1

From reading that, I'd say the England game with Earls at fullback was a one off. I'd also say that he is first choice back-up centre.

And from reading the article and the above comment I'd say you didn't read the article.

IMO, considering the interviewer brought up fullback, Earls only talked about the wing (where the interviewer said he got the impression he would prefer to be elsewhere) and centre.

Of course, I'd also bear in mind that Earls probably knows that Felix Jones is first choice fullback at Munster, so he would probably have few opportunities there.

But Rodders - he didn't have to do that when he last played. Teams are only getting used to it now earlier this year.

I will accept fully that he has never played consistently that way but you are making a definite statement about what he can and cannot do based on his performances under a previous set of laws and a period of injury.

Yeah ignore that comment sin, I'm sorry there was no need for that.

I just don't think there was anything in the article to suggest that earls wanted to move to centre only the interviewer interpreting his coments about his centre performances to mean that.

Stag I hope you are right. I have nothing against Kearney at all. He was fantastic in 2008/9, one of the best in the world. It's just the fullback roll has changed and much more emphasis is on attack. I haven't seen the skills from Kearney to suggest that he can be the player we desperately need at the back. I'm convinced that Earls does and possibly Jones too.

It's a pity Murphy wasn't 10 years younger....

[quote="Sin é"][quote="roddersm"][quote="Sin é"]http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-features/skys-the-limit-for-high-flying-earls-2-0014191-1

From reading that, I'd say the England game with Earls at fullback was a one off. I'd also say that he is first choice back-up centre.

[/quote]

And from reading the article and the above comment I'd say you didn't read the article.

[/quote]

IMO, considering the interviewer brought up fullback, Earls only talked about the wing (where the interviewer said he got the impression he would prefer to be elsewhere) and centre.

Of course, I'd also bear in mind that Earls probably knows that Felix Jones is first choice fullback at Munster, so he would probably have few opportunities there.

[/quote]

The key is if he gets game time at 13 with munster next season or not and if he plays well. If he does he's my man to play there after BOD hangs up his boots

roddersm wrote:Yeah ignore that comment sin, I'm sorry there was no need for that.

I just don't think there was anything in the article to suggest that earls wanted to move to centre only the interviewer interpreting his coments about his centre performances to mean that.

I'm pretty sure he has always said that 13 is his preferred position and where he feels most comfortable and wants to play.

Val thats fair enough but a players preferred position and best position are not always the same. As I said on another post I always fancied myself as a centre because I felt most comfortable there but my caoches mainly kept me in the back 3. When I was younger a coach tried to get me to switch to scrum-half and it was the biggest mistake I ever made by not switching there.

Sometimes a player doesn't always know whats best and Earls preferring the centre doesn't mean he is 2nd choice there.

Its not just down to what he prefers to play. Whether there is anyone else better than him available would also come into the equasion and who he would be keeping out of their best positions. If, for instance, Zebo can do as good a job on the wing as Earls, and Earls can do as god a job as Barnes in the centre, Zebo will be on the wing, and Earls will be the centre.

Most people think that D'Arcy would have been a better outside centre than inside centre. He was just unfortunate that BOD was better and Leinster & Ireland needed inside centres.

roddersm wrote:Val thats fair enough but a players preferred position and best position are not always the same. As I said on another post I always fancied myself as a centre because I felt most comfortable there but my caoches mainly kept me in the back 3. When I was younger a coach tried to get me to switch to scrum-half and it was the biggest mistake I ever made by not switching there.

Sometimes a player doesn't always know whats best and Earls preferring the centre doesn't mean he is 2nd choice there.

No deccie preferring him there is what makes him 2nd choice.

valjester wrote:
No deccie preferring him there is what makes him 2nd choice.

Exactly and when has he done that? The only time he ever played there was when had injury problems against Wales.

roddersm wrote:Val thats fair enough but a players preferred position and best position are not always the same. As I said on another post I always fancied myself as a centre because I felt most comfortable there but my caoches mainly kept me in the back 3. When I was younger a coach tried to get me to switch to scrum-half and it was the biggest mistake I ever made by not switching there.

Sometimes a player doesn't always know whats best and Earls preferring the centre doesn't mean he is 2nd choice there.

Fitz wanted to play fullback

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

roddersm wrote:Val thats fair enough but a players preferred position and best position are not always the same. As I said on another post I always fancied myself as a centre because I felt most comfortable there but my caoches mainly kept me in the back 3. When I was younger a coach tried to get me to switch to scrum-half and it was the biggest mistake I ever made by not switching there.

Sometimes a player doesn't always know whats best and Earls preferring the centre doesn't mean he is 2nd choice there.

Fitz wanted to play fullback

Fitz didn't manage to relegate anyone to the bench to play there like Earls relegated both Jean de Villiers and Mafi for the outside centre spot. (When JDV originally came, Earls was played on the wing). By the end of that season (despite being injured - he didn't go on the SH tour), he was first choice outside centre with JDV at 12.

Sin he didn't relegate anyone, Mafi and de Villiers just didn't gel. Earls was a stop gap because Munster had no other option.

Neither Mafi or JDV are 13's really either they are both much more comfortable at 12. Fitz relegated the best fullback in the NH to the bench for Leinster (albeit at the wished of DK)

Just read back the last few posts, Sin - how could Earls have relegated JDV to the bench while simultaneously playing along side him in the center.

I think he meant relegated him to 12.

He has played all his rugby at 13 up to the 6ns this year. How do you not know that he is being played on the wing at the wishes of DK as we all know he won't be the starting 13 for the world cup.

Rodders, JDV would be more than comfortable at 13 (or the wing) for Munster and probably for SA as well. He played on the wing recently for his club.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think he meant relegated him to 12.

Both. At one stage JDV was on the bench, with Earls & Mafi starting in the centre. You may recall JDV coming on against USAP and scoring a superb try in the Heineken Cup.

Sin you know as well as I do that de villiers was signed to replace tipoki. However the partnership with Mafi just didn't work and Munster tried a few combinations. Mafi's form suffered without Tipoki so Munster ended up with De Villiers and Earls by process of elimination.

To be fair it was an ok combo but nowhere near as good as Mafi and Tipoki.

Yes - Earls was considered to be better at outside centre than both JDV & Mafi!

I think JDV is a 12 through and through to be honest. Never thought he did well at 13.

Sin é wrote:Yes - Earls was considered to be better at outside centre than both JDV & Mafi!

I'm not sure what you're saying Sin. Both JDV & Mafi are known for being inside centres.

For the record, I quite like Earls at outside centre. Do I think it's his best position? Maybe not. But I wouldn't be averse to him playing there in certain games. We can't always play BOD.

I think his best position (by some distance) is wing. I did however vote for him as 15 in this poll due to circumstance and other options

Sin é wrote:Yes - Earls was considered to be better at outside centre than both JDV & Mafi!

No JDV & Earls was considered a better combination than either Mafi & Earls or Mafi & Tipoki, which is not the same.

The combination was always likely to be JDV & A.N. other and Earls and he combined better than he and Mafi did.

By your logic Barnes is a better outside centre than Earls, would you agree?