Would Ireland beat England on neutral territory at the RWC?

First topic message reminder :

This - to me - would be the ultimate test of strength for the Home Nations sides.

A resurgent England against a confident Ireland would be one hell of a contest.

I hope it happens.

So Portnoy,

Maybe you could stop dodging my question.

What has happened since the 6nations that makes you think England are any better than Ireland?

I think the fact that Portnoy is English and spends 100% of his time speaking about Irish rugby probably sums it up.

7 out of 8 wins against England, 4 out of the last 6 Heineken Cups. Leinster, Munster and Ulster all looking strong.

Not really a position were you're thinking that beating England is the only 'crumb'.

What has happened since the 6nations that makes you think England are any better than Ireland?

Well, IN the six nations we finished above you

Ireland have been better than England in recent years and have been even better in Ireland-England clashes than you would expect from their superiority as a team. If you see what I mean.

But I think England fans justifiably feel we're a team on the up. We were smashed in Dublin last time, no question, but we're all hoping that was a blip. I certainly think home advantage was a huge factor in that game so if the two teams met again at a neutral venue in the World Cup, who knows?

You'd still have to say Ireland are favourites given recent form but if I were Irish I wouldn't be massively confident – they had a poor six nations overall whereas we had our best in... a depressingly long time now I think about it!

Mickado wrote:So Portnoy,

Maybe you could stop dodging my question.

What has happened since the 6nations that makes you think England are any better than Ireland?

I'd be interested to hear the answer to that one too Mick. If anything the subsequent results at club level have even further pointed to Ireland's superiority, however marginal.

I'd also be interested to hear what this English "resurgence" that has occured since the 6N is that Portnoy is referring to?

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

What has happened since the 6nations that makes you think England are any better than Ireland?

Well, IN the six nations we finished above you

Ireland have been better than England in recent years and have been even better in Ireland-England clashes than you would expect from their superiority as a team. If you see what I mean.

But I think England fans justifiably feel we're a team on the up. We were smashed in Dublin last time, no question, but we're all hoping that was a blip. I certainly think home advantage was a huge factor in that game so if the two teams met again at a neutral venue in the World Cup, who knows?

You'd still have to say Ireland are favourites given recent form but if I were Irish I wouldn't be massively confident – they had a poor six nations overall whereas we had our best in... a depressingly long time now I think about it!

You'd struggle to find a poster on here of any nationality that would disagree with you when you say England are on the up. I totally agree. But the fact is that they were beaten in Lansdowne, and haven't played since, so what's changed?

No.

nottins wrote:No.

Care to offer anything more than that Nottins?

Personally I think Ulster are overrated but that has nothing to do with the Irish national team.

I would say England,France and Ireland are all equal because Ireland >England >France>Ireland. Do you really disagree with that?

Ireland perform very well against England but struggle against France. France struggle against England.

You'd struggle to find a poster on here of any nationality that would disagree with you when you say England are on the up. I totally agree. But the fact is that they were beaten in Lansdowne, and haven't played since, so what's changed?

We won't be in Lansdowne? We'll have Lawes back? It'll be another day, another game? Ben Youngs and Toby Flood have rested and hopefully will have got over their dips in form? Lots of stuff will be different I suppose.

I dunno. I think we England fans feel we're a bit better than that game suggested.

beshocked wrote:Personally I think Ulster are overrated but that has nothing to do with the Irish national team.

I would say England,France and Ireland are all equal because Ireland >England >France>Ireland. Do you really disagree with that?

Personally I think Ulster are underrated but that has nothing to do with the Irish National team either

I don't believe England are better than France. Certainly their head to head in recent times suggests they are but France and it's clubs have been much more successful than their English counterparts in recent years.

Mickado wrote:

nottins wrote:No.

Care to offer anything more than that Nottins?

No. I didn't see you asking Cari to offer anything more.

Lawes is a fine player when his pack are on the front foot, but he can't carry the team. He would have been a passenger in that game just as much as he was in the HC final. It won't be in Lansdowne but we have no problems picking up victories in twickenham either. I just wanted to hear the opinion of the first person on this thread to predict a resounding victory for England, that's all.

nottins wrote:

Mickado wrote:

nottins wrote:No.

Care to offer anything more than that Nottins?

No. I didn't see you asking Cari to offer anything more.

That's because Mick knows I know feck all about rugby so leave me out of this!

Cari wrote:That's because Mick knows I know feck all about rugby so leave me out of this!

It wasn't that Cari, it was just your answer made more sense...

Cari wrote:

nottins wrote:

Mickado wrote:

nottins wrote:No.

Care to offer anything more than that Nottins?

No. I didn't see you asking Cari to offer anything more.

That's because Mick knows I know feck all about rugby so leave me out of this!

It wasn't because of you personally. Just I replied in the same way, but I get questioned about it.

...and Mickado explained why he wanted a more indepth answer from you.

I just wanted to hear the opinion of the first person on this thread to predict a resounding victory for England, that's all.

Lawes is a fine player when his pack are on the front foot, but he can't carry the team. He would have been a passenger in that game just as much as he was in the HC final. It won't be in Lansdowne but we have no problems picking up victories in twickenham either. I just wanted to hear the opinion of the first person on this thread to predict a resounding victory for England, that's all.

I'm not suggesting he would have won us the game in his own, but he's a physical player with a bit of fight in him– he provides exactly what we seemed to be missing in Dublin.
If we was back in the team that would be a difference from the last time out, which is what you asked for, and a difference in our favour I think.

Cari wrote:...and Mickado explained why he wanted a more indepth answer from you.

I just wanted to hear the opinion of the first person on this thread to predict a resounding victory for England, that's all.

I think you'll find in actual fact that he was replying to Eustace H Plimsoll.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

Lawes is a fine player when his pack are on the front foot, but he can't carry the team. He would have been a passenger in that game just as much as he was in the HC final. It won't be in Lansdowne but we have no problems picking up victories in twickenham either. I just wanted to hear the opinion of the first person on this thread to predict a resounding victory for England, that's all.

I'm not suggesting he would have won us the game in his own, but he's a physical player with a bit of fight in him– he provides exactly what we seemed to be missing in Dublin.
If we was back in the team that would be a difference from the last time out, which is what you asked for, and a difference in our favour I think.

Fair enough. And we were accused of hanging a "crumb of hope"!

Nottins, i asked you for your opinion, i didn't ask Cari because it was 3 pages and 24 hours ago and i wasn't watching the thread. Either answer or don't but don't bring other posters into it.

Portnoy wrote:This - to me - would be the ultimate test of strength for the Home Nations sides.

A resurgent England against a confident Ireland would be one hell of a contest.

I hope it happens.

Put it to you this way. If Ireland lose that game, it will be ho hum. As stated before, we have several front liners who need some game time and some young lads who need to push for places.

Its not nice to lose, to anybody, but I suggest that, if Ireland give England a right royal tonking, as the last time we met, Argnetina will go on to beat England.

This game matters to the 2 teams, but for 2 very different reasons. England must win.

Irelands big one is in Dublin against France. Lose it, and we are in BIG trouble. Might as well book the flights home for after the SA game.

Win it and who knows.

So, yes, I think that Ireland would beat England at a neutral venue based on the fact that our clubs are currently stronger than yours and that we have won 7 times out of 8 against England.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:
We won't be in Lansdowne? We'll have Lawes back? It'll be another day, another game? Ben Youngs and Toby Flood have rested and hopefully will have got over their dips in form? Lots of stuff will be different I suppose.

I dunno. I think we England fans feel we're a bit better than that game suggested.

We'll have Stephen Ferris, Jerry Flannery, Geordan Murphy and Rob kearney back and our players will be rested too. Paul O'Connell and Tommy Bowe were not fully fit at Landsdowne either. If anything it is us who have the capacity to be better than in our previous meeting.

PS

first person on this thread to predict a resounding victory for England
Was Portnoy.

Fair enough nottins, with you being an England fan, that's why he'd prefer a more indepth reply from you perhaps?

We'll have Stephen Ferris, Jerry Flannery, Geordan Murphy and Rob kearney back and our players will be rested too. Paul O'Connell and Tommy Bowe were not fully fit at Landsdowne either. If anything it is us who have the capacity to be better than in our previous meeting.

How many of them will be in the first team? Not Murphy. And Kearney's not a key player any more is he?

Actually quite interested to know whether you think Ferris will get in the first XV now with O'Brien at 6. Probably not I would have thought.

Anyway, it's a fair point – both teams will be slightly different, maybe slightly stronger, than last time out. But Ireland won't be at home. I think that's the most significant difference and it's in England's favour.

Still think Ireland would probably win but...

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:
How many of them will be in the first team? Not Murphy. And Kearney's not a key player any more is he?

Actually quite interested to know whether you think Ferris will get in the first XV now with O'Brien at 6. Probably not I would have thought.

There's alot of debate about Irelands best 22. Certainly Kearney and Ferris are still key players. Remember we played the entire 6N without a recognised full back so both Kearney and Murphy were missed. Flannery could be important given the problems we've had with our lineout in recent times.

Stephen Ferris will certainly strengthen us considerably, whether it is from the bench or not we will have to wait and see but regardless of O'Brien, Ferris is still a massive player for us.

Boyne I would say Munster and Leinster are strong. No doubt.

Ulster and Connacht - ummm....no.

One is overrated by the Irish unsurprisingly and the other is simply weak. Leicester will dispose of Ulster in the HC just like Saints did this year.

Yes before you say I know Leinster hammered us etc. New tournament next year. With a much easier group things will be different.

Quins and Gloucester will comfortably dispatch Connacht.

Actually I think in the HC Saints will take down Munster just like Quins did in the Amlin last year.

Only Leinster will flourish in next year's HC from Ireland in my opinion. This is the year the English clubs fight back.

I can see Saracens and Saints topping their groups. Leicester and one of Gloucester or Quins qualifying as best runners up.

I expect Saints will do better but I didn't think much of them last year. Poor enough domestic campagin by their standards I've have guessed. And a very kind Heineken Cup run.

Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh, Castres, Ulster and Toulon. Have to say I don't think much of it.

They will do better this year probably. They will have taken confidence from last seasons run regardless of opposition. But for me I'd rather face them than Tigers or Saracens.

beshocked wrote:

One is overrated by the Irish unsurprisingly and the other is simply weak. Leicester will dispose of Ulster in the HC just like Saints did this year.

I look forward to seeing you at Ravenhill next season Beshocked I expect Leicester and Clermont might be too strong for us but I'm pretty sure we won't be the pushovers you think we will.

In what sense have the Irish overrated Ulster?

This is the year the English clubs fight back.

LOL!!! Man, if I had a dollar... ect ect....

Why are English fans so insecure about everything?

It's really weird. Muhammed Ali once said 'it's not boasting if it's true'. So it's all cool when NZ or South African fans talk like this... I'm both amused and bemused by the English responses!

Ra ra ra, we're on our way back, we'll fight back in Europe this year. Well, ok... good luck to you! I don't get the need for the willy waving that goes on but maybe thats just me.

Notch wrote:Why are English fans so insecure about everything?

It's really weird. Muhammed Ali once said 'it's not boasting if it's true'. So it's all cool when NZ or South African fans talk like this... I'm both amused and bemused by the English responses!

Ra ra ra, we're on our way back, we'll fight back in Europe this year. Well, ok... good luck to you! I don't get the need for the willy waving that goes on but maybe thats just me.

The emptiest vessels make most noise.

Lovely bit of generalising there chaps. Thanks for that.

Why are English fans so insecure about everything? Headscratch

It's really weird. Muhammed Ali once said 'it's not boasting if it's true'. So it's all cool when NZ or South African fans talk like this... I'm both amused and bemused by the English responses!

Ra ra ra, we're on our way back, we'll fight back in Europe this year. Well, ok... good luck to you! I don't get the need for the willy waving that goes on but maybe thats just me.

Is this thread full of boastful England fans? Probably the most confident is beshocked and he's only claiming England are as good as Ireland! It's the Irish who are the confident ones...

stag I absolutey agree. I really admired Leinster's HC run this season.

They dispatched the top 3 English clubs - Leicester,Saracens x 2 and Northampton. They dispatched 3 of the best French clubs - Clermont, Racing Metro x 2 and Toulouse. Not a bad list!

Of course Saints had an easy run but they beat what was in front of them. It's also why I think Saracens will do next season in the HC. Poor domestic campaign for Saints because of lack of strength in depth..

roddersm I think Ulster are neither good nor bad. Just an average team. They aren't as good as your flagship Irish clubs Leinster and Munster. Good at home though. They are the Irish equivalent of Gloucester.

I don't think you will be pushovers. Just think Leicester and Clermont will squeeze you out in a tough pool.

Notch is it not ok to have an opinion? I think I will be right.

I would happily bet with anyone - I think an English team will win the HC next season.

You make a fair point lads. My unintentionally implied comment about 'all' English fans was unfair.

Beshocked Ulster are a rising team. Ranked 10th in Europe, a QF's in the HC and 3rd in the Magners.

For what it is worth I think Leicester will win at Welford Road and Ulster will win at Ravenhill. Thats was what happened last time and we were not as good then.

To be honest if Ulster arern't strong then, at most, only 3 English teams can claim to be strong - Leicester, Saracens and Saints (None of the others had a season to warrant put them above Uslter).

E.g 4 Games against Bath in 2 years - 4 wins

Shcoked what I will say is that despite an easy run Saints will take heart and confidence from it. They recruited well. Vasily Artimiev is a super signing.

I still think Tigers or Sarries would be harder.

And yes wouldn't be surprised if an English team won it. Why not. Its as likely as French or Irish.

Thanks Notch, nice of you to come back on that one.

Notch wrote:Why are some English fans so insecure about everything?

I'm sure this is what you really meant Notch?

Fair enough Beshocked. I think English clubs will go well next season in the HEC but I think Leinster will be the team to beat.

I think you will be hard pushed to find an Irish rugby fan who will claim that Ulster are as good as Leinster or Munster. We are an improving side with a rich history and some very good players but I expect you are right that we will be squeezed out of a very tough group. I expect we will go down fighting though and no team will be looking forward to coming to Ravenhill next season.

geoff998 rugby Ulster are the Irish equivalent of Gloucester. Both are strong at home, both came 3rd in their respective leagues.

Maybe I am overly harsh, average is the wrong word.

I see Ulster as better than the likes of O's,Cardiff etc but not as good as the likes of those top 3 English clubs you mention,Toulouse,Clermont,Leinster,Munster etc.

It's really hard to properly gauge a team's actual strength as weak or strong HC groups skew things.

E.g. I don't think Biarritz and Cardiff warrant 1st tier rankings. Biarritz in particularly constantly get favourable HC pools.

Really hard to gauge sides like Toulon,Racing Metro and Montpellier too.

I don't think we will go through either. So long as we win our three home games and beat Aironi away I'll be happy.

For a team like Ulster last season was a massive achievement

Housekeeping some comments that need my response:

Mickado wrote:So Portnoy,

Maybe you could stop dodging my question.

What has happened sinced the 6nations that makes you think England are any better than Ireland?

Nothing has happened save England have had a taste of a bitter spanking which they won't forget and hopefully they'll learn from.
Plus the can't play any worse can thay?

Mickado wrote:PS

first person on this thread to predict a resounding victory for England
Was Portnoy.

I never bloody did.
That is rubbish.

Portnoy wrote:Nothing has happened save England have had a taste of a bitter spanking which they won't forget and hopefully they'll learn from.

A very sound point IMO.

red_stag wrote:For a team like Ulster last season was a massive achievement

A team with 15 men and striped socks? Please elaborate stag.

If you gain that and pick up some bonus points won't you be in with a shot at best runners up?

roddersm of course Leinster will be the team to beat.

Anyway back to the question - it's a RWC. England are completely different animal. Much more dangerous. They aren't the football side they won't bow down to expectation. Whoever deals with the nerves and expectations better would win. On one side you have England's WC pedigree. On the other you have Ireland's recent excellent record vs England.

As I said before I see Ireland,England and France at about the same level.

We've beaten them 3 out of 4 times in Twickenham, so I'd expect us to beat them on neutral ground. Most of our wins have been very close matches though. And England are getting better. I expect less victories over England in the next World Cup cycle.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:For a team like Ulster last season was a massive achievement

A team with 15 men and striped socks? Please elaborate stag.

KNew that would get a reaction

To be honest all of this talk about "pedigree" is starting to sound a bit like dog food, chum.

In my view, it will count for nothing. England had a cracking team in 2003, no doubt, but 2007 was an absolute anomoly.

Again, fair play, but 2007 has zero baring on 2011. And so it will prove.