Ireland vs Scotland (part of Irish team)

First topic message reminder :

I know someone who was in camp with the Irish team for the last week, talked to him and seen his pics and from what I am aware, the team will look something like this

-Flannery-
-
-Leamy??-
Boss-Sexton
Wallace-McFadden
Fitzgerald-Kearney-Trimble

Don't know props, locks or flankers, but I have seen a lot of Court at 3, Cullen has been heavily involved, so too has Ryan.

Leamy will play don't know if 6 or 8 but would imagine 8 as I've seen McLaughlin a lot in the pics doing team runs.
Jones will get game time?
Murray will bench if TOL can't get over a small niggle in time.

Can people piece together more bits? Happy with that much of the team??

But ROG probably doesn't have an injury now it's just he did a few weeks ago and thus is well behind in preseason, there was an interview in the independent (I think) where he said as much.

I agree with you on Fla sin, he needs to be tested properly

Sin é wrote:
Until he has played a game without Darcy & BOD outside him, he is not experienced. Who organises the backs defensive system? Keith Earls, who will also be surrounded by players that he doesn't play regularly with.

Has Wallace & Sexton ever played a game together?

Am I missing something here? Is this not the perfect opportunity for him to play a game without D'Arcy and BOD in a warm-up match that is designed to test new combinations?

Sexton and Wallace have played together for Ireland but never started together. The times they have plaed together they have gelled very well. I think it's fair to say that at some point you have to try new things. If you're not trying new things in your first warm-up match of four before the RWC, well, when will you?

Would a internal trial game have been a good test match? Something like :

Court, Best, Buckley
O'Callaghan, Cullen
O'Brien, Leamy, Wallace
O'Leary, Sexton
Wallace, O'Driscoll
Fitzgerald, Kearney, McFadden

Healy, Flannery, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, Jennings
Reddan, O'Gara
Darcy, Earls
Trimble, Murphy, Bowe

Reserves:

Horan, Wilkinson, Hayes, Cronin, Varley, O'Driscoll, McCarthy, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Murray, Boss, Stringer, Humphreys, Spence, Duffy, Horgan, Jones

Perfect

Sin é wrote:

Until he has played a game without Darcy & BOD outside him, he is not experienced. Who organises the backs defensive system? Keith Earls, who will also be surrounded by players that he doesn't play regularly with.

Are you seriously suggesting that ROG will be needed to organise the defence?!

Personally I have no concerns about Sexton playing without BOD and D'arcy. In fact I'd say they rely more on him than vice versa these days.

I saw the pics of them doing one of those, full pitch and it was "grab" instead of full contact but there were full scrums, lineouts and I think rucking.

Agree that it is a good idea and was very nice to see Kearney involved so much, especially in attack I have to say.

Loads of players were missing from it though don't know why so many were there was no:

Best, healy, ross, POC, DOC, SOB, Jennings, 1F, Reddan, Rog, Darcy, earls, Murhpy, Bowe, BOD, Ruddock, Stringer, Hump, Spence, Horgan

I'm worried about the experience of the opposition 10s we're gonna come up against in the next 2 months compared to Sexton. None of them have ever played with D'Arcy or BOD. That's a lot of experience. Worrying.

Notch-

Haha!

I actually quite like the idea of Sexton-Wallace-McF

Particullarily that Wallace is going to come up against a big ball carrying Scottish 12 so that will prepare him somewhat for Faainga, DeVilliers, whoever!
he has already proved he can bring down the big guys, like banahan, Nonu, etc just want everyone to see it at this stage.

Scottish team is out

15 Chris Paterson (Edinburgh)
14 Nikki Walker (Ospreys)
13 Joe Ansbro (London Irish)
12 Graeme Morrison (Glasgow Warriors)
11 Sean Lamont (Scarlets)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Rory Lawson (Gloucester) (C)

1 Allan Jacobsen (Edinburgh)
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh)
3 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh)
4 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester)
5 Richie Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Gloucester)
8 Johnnie Beattie (Glasgow Warriors)
7 Ross Rennie (Edinburgh)

Substitutes

16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
17 Alasdair Dickinson (Sale Sharks)
18 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
19 David Denton (Edinburgh)
20 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh)
21 Nick De Luca (Edinburgh)
22 Jack Cuthbert (Bath)

thoughts?

Evolution, not revolution. BOD/Wallace/Sexton no problem.

The backs are only going to be missing their captain and his usual partner.

Has Sexton ever started a game without BOD/D'Arcy.

Has Wallace ever started a game with Sexton?

Has Earls ever played a game with Wallace at 12?

Has Earls ever started an international game that he hasn't had BOD on his inside?

Sin é wrote:

Has Earls ever played a game with Wallace at 12?

Has Earls ever started an international game that he hasn't had BOD on his inside?

Good point sin maybe we should drop Earls for this one and see if Dennis Hickie is available.

Whats the deal with this game on TV? RTE, BBC etc?

Yeah, but we have no choice in the matter. D'Arcy and BOD are injured, O'Gara is behind on his pre-season. As has been explained

These guys have been training together in camp for what, over two years? They are hardly unfamiliar with each other. At some point you have to try new things and this is the perfect opportunity for that.

With D'Arcy touch and go, the Sexton/Wallace combo needs to be looked at asap because those two guys could well be first choice in their positions. With BOD out it will be Earls or McFadden at 13. There is a bit of a sense that we've made a rod for our backs by never fully blooding an understudy for BOD but now we have to do it.

Our hand has been forced by injuries. Instead of being negative and playing a half-fit 10 whose style has been shown not to complement the guy at 12, why not try a new combination that has the potential to be so much better?

Notch wrote: There is a bit of a sense that we've made a rod for our backs by never fully blooding an understudy for BOD but now we have to do it.

One might even say that we have made a bod for our own backs with regards our midfield options....

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Has Earls ever played a game with Wallace at 12?

Has Earls ever started an international game that he hasn't had BOD on his inside?

Good point sin maybe we should drop Earls for this one and see if Dennis Hickie is available.

I don't think Hickie is actually in the squad and more than likely not going to the world cup.

Sin to be honest you seem to be contradicting your self?

Surely we should be trying out new combinations in these kind of games no?

Notch wrote:Yeah, but we have no choice in the matter. D'Arcy and BOD are injured, O'Gara is behind on his pre-season. As has been explained

These guys have been training together in camp for what, over two years? They are hardly unfamiliar with each other. At some point you have to try new things and this is the perfect opportunity for that.

With D'Arcy touch and go, the Sexton/Wallace combo needs to be looked at asap because those two guys could well be first choice in their positions. With BOD out it will be Earls or McFadden at 13. There is a bit of a sense that we've made a rod for our backs by never fully blooding an understudy for BOD but now we have to do it.

Our hand has been forced by injuries. Instead of being negative and playing a half-fit 10 whose style has been shown not to complement the guy at 12, why not try a new combination that has the potential to be so much better?

If O'Gara isn't fit enough to start, he won't be fit enough to bench which will mean that Fergus McFadden will be starting instead of Wallace, who will be outhalf cover.

There is no way Kidney would start Paddy Wallace at 12 and also be 10 cover.

There is no way Kidney would start Paddy Wallace at 12 and also be 10 cover.

Why not?

Sin will you relax. This isn't a world cup final here. The whole point is to get people fit and try out combinations, especially since there are doubts about D'arcy.

ROG will get his chance to shine.

red_stag wrote:Sin to be honest you seem to be contradicting your self?

Surely we should be trying out new combinations in these kind of games no?

Evolution, not revolution. There are too many new combinations in that team.

Evolution would be: 13 Earls 12 McFadden, 12, Sexton, Reddan; (Sexton would be used to McFadden at least).

One guy i hope does himself justice and really stakes a claim is Andrew Trimble. He has been excellent for Ulster in the past 2 years and i hope he grabs his chance for Ireland

roddersm wrote:Sin will you relax. This isn't a world cup final here. The whole point is to get people fit and try out combinations, especially since there are doubts about D'arcy.

ROG will get his chance to shine.

ROG doesn't need his chance to shine - but Earls (a confidence player) does. ROG makes a better scapegoat

They are all going to get at least 2 games and I believe the objective is to win them all. Losing to Scotland isn't going to do much good heading into a world cup.

MBTGOG wrote:

There is no way Kidney would start Paddy Wallace at 12 and also be 10 cover.

Why not?

Can you remember a game that Paddy Wallace has started at 12 for Ireland where he didn't have to come off injured?

Neither is picking the same combos all the time though. If it was a full test game I'd agree with you probably but its a trial game. We need test these kind of things.

These are all international players getting regular provincial gametime. It isn't revolution to play them.

Standulstermen wrote:One guy i hope does himself justice and really stakes a claim is Andrew Trimble. He has been excellent for Ulster in the past 2 years and i hope he grabs his chance for Ireland

He has really worked on his game. 2 years ago it was scary watching him under a high ball or trying to kick.

Sin é wrote:
Evolution, not revolution. There are too many new combinations in that team.

Evolution would be: 13 Earls 12 McFadden, 12, Sexton, Reddan; (Sexton would be used to McFadden at least).

Evolution takes time. We only have 4 games and with D'arcy looking doubtful then we have to try out as many combinations as possible and ensure that poor little jonny, Paddy, earlsy or wheover can play without unkle ROG, BOD and Gordon to hold their hands.

This is the last chance before the WC to ensure we have all our bases covered within the squad we take.

Can you remember a game that Paddy Wallace has started at 12 for Ireland where he didn't have to come off injured?

Vs Samoa in the Autumn there (12)
Vs Australia on the Summer Tour (12)
vs Australia in Autumn 2009 (12)
vs England in the Six Nations 2009 (12)
vs Australia on the Summer Tour 2008 (12)
vs New Zealand on the Summer Tour 2008 (12)
vs Scotland in the RWC warm-up match, 2007 (10)
vs Argentina on the Summer Tour 2007 (10)
vs Pacific Islanders in Autumn 2006 (10)

Compared to 3 games I remember him starting and having come off injured.

Its like the catch 22 of they need experience together or we won't play them. But equally we won't play them unless they have experience together.

red_stag wrote:Neither is picking the same combos all the time though. If it was a full test game I'd agree with you probably but its a trial game. We need test these kind of things.

These are all international players getting regular provincial gametime. It isn't revolution to play them.

So, why didn't Kidney drop D'Arcy when he was playing poorly during the 6Ns. (My opinion was that it was a comfort blanket to Sexton to help settle in internationally).

It is revolutionary to play them together. Its the reason for the existence of the provinces so that players get a bit of an edge on everyone else because they are playing regularly together.

How come no one seems to be able to break up the BOD/D'Arcy combination? Or the POC/DOC one?

red_stag wrote:Its like the catch 22 of they need experience together or we won't play them. But equally we won't play them unless they have experience together.

It makes no sense. It really doesn't.

Notch wrote:

Can you remember a game that Paddy Wallace has started at 12 for Ireland where he didn't have to come off injured?

Vs Samoa in the Autumn there (12)
Vs Australia on the Summer Tour (12)
vs Australia in Autumn 2009 (12)
vs England in the Six Nations 2009 (12)
vs Australia on the Summer Tour 2008 (12)
vs New Zealand on the Summer Tour 2008 (12)
vs Scotland in the RWC warm-up match, 2007 (10)
vs Argentina on the Summer Tour 2007 (10)
vs Pacific Islanders in Autumn 2006 (10)

That's 9 times in 5 years. Less than 2 games a year.

Sh1t! and he is probably the most capped 12 in that period after Darce. (Who was out a lot)

Feck all depth at 12. I hope we get McFadden into the mix soon. Or one of the many promising young backs in Ulster

Edit: I seem to remember him starting at 10 v the PI in 06. Had a great day with the boot too.

Fitz and Heislip's 1st cap? Or is the aul memory letting me down?

Notch wrote:Compared to 3 games I remember him starting and having come off injured.

Thats about 1/3 of the games he has started for Ireland.

Most coaches will always keep someone on the bench in case of injury until the last few minutes.

Sin é wrote:How come no one seems to be able to break up the BOD/D'Arcy combination? Or the POC/DOC one?

Probably as we build towards World Cups and building combinations is important for them. However I am fairly sure that there have been trial matches in the past that we have eased off a tiny bit.

As I said I'd think a bit more about this if it was a must win knock out match. But we have injuries at centre and need to see some combinations.

Truth is, the Leinster/Munster player started later back into pre-season than the rest. So there will be a definite second string feel to the side.

I would rather see a stronger team, but thats not going to happen realistically. This is still very early. The players have only been doing mainly rugby over fitness for one week. This is an experimental game that was only included for that reason.

That doesn't mean its okay to lose, it's not. But it is going to a much-changed side from the one that beat England and we should welcome the chance to see guys put their hands up and new combinations rather than focusing on the negatives. The first team is not ready for this game and the big guns will all be out next weekend.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Notch wrote:

Can you remember a game that Paddy Wallace has started at 12 for Ireland where he didn't have to come off injured?

Vs Samoa in the Autumn there (12)
Vs Australia on the Summer Tour (12)
vs Australia in Autumn 2009 (12)
vs England in the Six Nations 2009 (12)
vs Australia on the Summer Tour 2008 (12)
vs New Zealand on the Summer Tour 2008 (12)
vs Scotland in the RWC warm-up match, 2007 (10)
vs Argentina on the Summer Tour 2007 (10)
vs Pacific Islanders in Autumn 2006 (10)

That's 9 times in 5 years. Less than 2 games a year

He only started about 12 games. Most of his 26 caps have been off the bench

red_stag wrote:Its like the catch 22 of they need experience together or we won't play them. But equally we won't play them unless they have experience together.

It's not catch 22 at all. You put the best options available out and see how they go. ROG, D'arcy and BOD aren't available so most of the viable combinations left are untested at test level.

Untested does not mean it won't work. Sexton and Wallace are experienced international players, so the question will be how well McFadden goes. Personally I am really looking forward to see how that trio function together.

In fact our World cup hopes could hinge on how well they do functon.

We all know Wallace is a poor enough player but he offers something new and better options are injured

Sin é wrote:
So, why didn't Kidney drop D'Arcy when he was playing poorly during the 6Ns. (My opinion was that it was a comfort blanket to Sexton to help settle in internationally).

So presumably your opinion is also that D'arcy started in the Scotland and Wales games as a comfort blanket for ROG?

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Neither is picking the same combos all the time though. If it was a full test game I'd agree with you probably but its a trial game. We need test these kind of things.

These are all international players getting regular provincial gametime. It isn't revolution to play them.

So, why didn't Kidney drop D'Arcy when he was playing poorly during the 6Ns. (My opinion was that it was a comfort blanket to Sexton to help settle in internationally).

It is revolutionary to play them together. Its the reason for the existence of the provinces so that players get a bit of an edge on everyone else because they are playing regularly together.

How come no one seems to be able to break up the BOD/D'Arcy combination? Or the POC/DOC one?

Because the international side don't get a huge amount of games together to the extent that provinces do. But also due to the fact that our combinations are similar in age. We don't have too many combinations where there is 5-6 years difference in the ages. So POC-DOC came along at the same time, similar to Horan-Hayes for years, Darcy-BOD, Stringer-ROG. Backrow has so much depth for Ireland that we don't have that dependency on set combinations and the age of the backrow is slightly more spread than other areas. One of my concerns about Wallace is that he is close in age to Darcy and BOD so all 3 could retire around the same time giving us a very very inexperienced centre partnership when that happens. A RWC isn't a time to try and change it, but after the RWC that trio must be split up with youth being given game time to help on transition.

red_stag wrote:Its like the catch 22 of they need experience together or we won't play them. But equally we won't play them unless they have experience together.

Its nothing like a Catch 22. Its just not a good plan (in my opinion), to put out a scratch team with too many completely new combinations.

A revolutionary backline would be: Trimble, Earls, Wallace, Sexton & Reddan.

I don't get why there are so many objections to ROG starting anyway. Do you seriously think he is just going to sit on the bench for Sexton during the whole world cup (in other words, he will need gametime as well)!

Sin, I think the reasons people are objecting to ROG are twofold:

- He has shown his worth against Scotland, lets see Sexton take them on. ROG can play France or England.

- ROG has had a slight knock. Let Sexton start and give ROG a week to make sure he's fully right. IRFU alluded to ROG recovering from the knock yesterday.

I don't see whats so drastic about:

09 Reddan
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald
12 Wallace
13 Earls
14 Trimble
15 Kearney

It actually looks quite settled to me. Nobody bar Earls has got a look at 13 while BOD has been on the scene. Wallace is our best back up at 12. We have injuries and our hands are fairly tied.

Sin é wrote:

A revolutionary backline would be: Trimble, Earls, Wallace, Sexton & Reddan.

I don't get why there are so many objections to ROG starting anyway. Do you seriously think he is just going to sit on the bench for Sexton during the whole world cup (in other words, he will need gametime as well)!

Sin that would be revolutionary because there's no full back and one centre but there's about a 25 cap average there so that would be one of the most experienced backlines in world rugby.

The fact that we are missing D'arcy and BOD is even more reason to start with our 1st choice fly-half: Sexton.

red_stag wrote:Sin, I think the reasons people are objecting to ROG are twofold:

- He has shown his worth against Scotland, lets see Sexton take them on. ROG can play France or England.

- ROG has had a slight knock. Let Sexton start and give ROG a week to make sure he's fully right. IRFU alluded to ROG recovering from the knock yesterday.

It's nothing to do with objecting to him. It's more that the arguments for starting him instead of Sexton are nonsence.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So, why didn't Kidney drop D'Arcy when he was playing poorly during the 6Ns. (My opinion was that it was a comfort blanket to Sexton to help settle in internationally).

So presumably your opinion is also that D'arcy started in the Scotland and Wales games as a comfort blanket for ROG?

No

Starting BOD / D'Arcy / Sexton / Reddan against the likes of Fiji was though.

Against Somoa last autumn though, D'Arcy was dropped for Wallace with ROG & Stringer starting

BOD & D'Arcy were back in action the following week with Sexton and Reddan against the ABs

What is the correct balance between probables and possibles?
Should we have each combination as a mix of the two?
Or should we have a mixture of settled combinations and new ones? (eg, probable front row, possible second row, probable backrow, probably half backs, possible centres, probable wings, possible fullback) Anyone coming back from injury to be deemed possible for selection.

I'm unsure as to best approach it myself (probably why I'm not the Irish coach) but I'm interested in v2's view on it.

Sexton is our first choice outhalf.

If Darcy doesn't make it Wallace is most likely to be our first choice 12.
We need to play them together so that they have some experience playing together.

What better opportunity than in a warm up game where nothing tangible is on offer other than IRB points???

Sin é wrote:

Against Samoa last autumn though, D'Arcy was dropped for Wallace with ROG & Stringer starting

I had forgotten that. Strings, Rog and Paddy Wallace at 9, 10 and 12. The 3 of them together would equal the weight of an average Samoan.

Fair play to them.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sexton is our first choice outhalf.

If Darcy doesn't make it Wallace is most likely to be our first choice 12.
We need to play them together so that they have some experience playing together.

What better opportunity than in a warm up game where nothing tangible is on offer other than IRB points???

McFadden surely must be in with a shout as well - I would also think that Earls/BOD combination (with 13 on BOD's back) might be an option.

There is more on offer than IRB points. There is also momentum.

Pete, interesting comment made by Gaffney in the IT yesterday - he said that the (Queensland) Reds kicked the ball more than anyone else last year in the Super 14 last season, and they won it.

I thought it was an interesting comment for him to make

Whan is it your squad gets announced guys?

duplication