The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union
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The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
First topic message reminder :
Welcome to the virtual rugby pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.
The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the David Pocock photo on the bar. That's a banning offence
So pull up a chair....what'll it be?
Welcome to the virtual rugby pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.
The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the David Pocock photo on the bar. That's a banning offence
So pull up a chair....what'll it be?
Guest- Guest
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Probably a bit late on the performance/results debate (wife's grandparents turned up so was being sociable) but here is my tuppence.
Rugby matches are won by the team scoring most points. Points are awarded for set acts, i.e. 5 for a try 3 for penalty etc. There are no points for style, or for a point scoring act being aesthetically pleasing, as that is subjective. For me a rolling maul is aesthically pleasing as a backs move that goes through 6 pairs of hands and ends up being finished in the corner.
Therefore for me, the team that scores more points is the best team, as that is the aim of the game, to outscore your opponent, so by definition, the best team always wins.
Rugby matches are won by the team scoring most points. Points are awarded for set acts, i.e. 5 for a try 3 for penalty etc. There are no points for style, or for a point scoring act being aesthetically pleasing, as that is subjective. For me a rolling maul is aesthically pleasing as a backs move that goes through 6 pairs of hands and ends up being finished in the corner.
Therefore for me, the team that scores more points is the best team, as that is the aim of the game, to outscore your opponent, so by definition, the best team always wins.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
I understand what you and Munsty are saying Pete, however for me "best" is a subjective term that depends on the game. On the day I may think the losing side played better. There are too many variables in an 80 minute long team sport for the side with more points to be "better".
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
hope all goes well at the Docs Micky.
And afternoon all, I'm v happy today, my line manager is on leave for 10 working days which means peace and quiet and a chance to actually get on with my work properly
And afternoon all, I'm v happy today, my line manager is on leave for 10 working days which means peace and quiet and a chance to actually get on with my work properly
Guest- Guest
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
You're not a fan of your line manager then, Dreamer?
Luckless Pedestrian- Posts : 24898
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
It's not subjective at all. Unless you're changing the point of playing the game.
MBTGOG- Posts : 4602
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
ha not work wise Lucky! She's absolutely lovely but she drives me absolutely potty.
Trying to get her to explain something to you/explaining something to her can be like having a tooth extracted.
anyway, must dash, got to head on back to the office
Laters folks, have lovely days
Trying to get her to explain something to you/explaining something to her can be like having a tooth extracted.
anyway, must dash, got to head on back to the office
Laters folks, have lovely days
Guest- Guest
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Stag,
Many French fans are happy to see ML leave, but even more are saddened by the choice of his replacement.
Many French fans are happy to see ML leave, but even more are saddened by the choice of his replacement.
Mick(TEFC)- Posts : 1111
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
red_stag wrote:I understand what you and Munsty are saying Pete, however for me "best" is a subjective term that depends on the game. On the day I may think the losing side played better. There are too many variables in an 80 minute long team sport for the side with more points to be "better".
MBTGOG wrote:It's not subjective at all. Unless you're changing the point of playing the game.
Munsty sums it up Stag. The aim of a rugby match is to score more points than your opponent, and how you do that is not relevant to the final score, therefore it's not subjective to say the team that scores more points is better.
It is not rhtymic gymnastics or ice dancing where points are awarded for artistic impression.
In rugby just because a team plays in a more aesthetically pleasing manner they cannot be regarded as playing better, as the true test of who is better would be the effectiveness of how they play in order to achieve the intended outcome of outscoring their opponent, therefore making the team that wins 'better'.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Lads Im sorry now but where have I said anything about aestetics. Please don't put words in my mouth where Im made out that its all about wide passing etc.
I don't like being told I have "misunderstood" something because I understand your point but just see it differently.
You don't have to be the better team to score more points. You can be lucky, cheated, etc.
Take these examples:
A - Last minute losing by 1 point, Team Red score a drops a goal, goes narrowly wide and referee awards it. TV replay shows it was unsuccessful. Team Red Wins.
B - Last minute losing by 1 point, Team Red drops a goal. Ref doesn't give it but TV replay shows it was a success. Team Red Loses.
I don't like being told I have "misunderstood" something because I understand your point but just see it differently.
You don't have to be the better team to score more points. You can be lucky, cheated, etc.
Take these examples:
A - Last minute losing by 1 point, Team Red score a drops a goal, goes narrowly wide and referee awards it. TV replay shows it was unsuccessful. Team Red Wins.
B - Last minute losing by 1 point, Team Red drops a goal. Ref doesn't give it but TV replay shows it was a success. Team Red Loses.
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
You sound like some kind of post modernist Stag.
MBTGOG- Posts : 4602
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
So earlier in game A Team red had a try chalked off incorrectly costing them 5/7 points meaning that the wrongly awarded drop goal only gave them what they deserved.
Shall I bother with game B or not? My point is we can all stick hypothetical refereeing errors into the scenario to suit whatever purpose we want them to, but as a general rule referees mistakes don't tend to cost teams matches in isolation.
Shall I bother with game B or not? My point is we can all stick hypothetical refereeing errors into the scenario to suit whatever purpose we want them to, but as a general rule referees mistakes don't tend to cost teams matches in isolation.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Thats true Pete they don't in isolation. I'm sorry if you and Munsty don't agree and I do see where you come from. And I've debated this 1000 times with Munsty. I won't change my view on that.
Sport is about winning; however you can win without being the better side.
Sport is about winning; however you can win without being the better side.
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
See you all in over a week. Love you lot.
MBTGOG- Posts : 4602
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Munsty,
bon voyage, and have a great holiday.
bon voyage, and have a great holiday.
Mick(TEFC)- Posts : 1111
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Stag
I know you and Munsty have had this battle before, and like yourself I can see the other side of the coin, I just disagree with it. We'll call this an agree to disagree moment.
Laters Munsty, safe journey.
I'm sure there was a post from luckless just now which has disappeared.
I know you and Munsty have had this battle before, and like yourself I can see the other side of the coin, I just disagree with it. We'll call this an agree to disagree moment.
Laters Munsty, safe journey.
I'm sure there was a post from luckless just now which has disappeared.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
MBTGOG wrote:See you all in over a week. Love you lot.
Enjoy it pal
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
There was, Pete, but Stag had already posted a refereeing error hypothesis.
I put it much better than he did, of course, but never mind.
Have fun in Turkey, Munsty
I put it much better than he did, of course, but never mind.
Have fun in Turkey, Munsty
Last edited by luckless_pedestrian on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Luckless Pedestrian- Posts : 24898
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
LDCPete wrote: We'll call this an agree to disagree moment.
We will. BTW did you all see this - BRILLIANT.
Watch these two Youtube Clips:
Declan Kidney 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzpBJzCOGI&feature=relmfu
Declan Kidney 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZORS2uCFkow
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
So you are in agreement with Stag I presume?
Refereeing error being such that you cannot say the team that wins is the best?
Refereeing error being such that you cannot say the team that wins is the best?
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Emjoy it Munsty. I missed the talk on results/performance but here is my view on the Ireland soccer team. I think the way Trap is setting us out to perform is detrimental to the team. The way he sets the team up will mean he won't concede but it inhibits any type of attacking flair we have. The way we perform is effecting our results in this case.
Thomond- Posts : 10663
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Not just refereeing error Pete. You have 80 minutes of ups and downs. Better performance is subjective. It seems to me its just an easy way out thing to say that more points = better performance.
We wouldn't bother hiring pundits were that actually the case.
We wouldn't bother hiring pundits were that actually the case.
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
LDCPete wrote:So you are in agreement with Stag I presume?
Refereeing error being such that you cannot say the team that wins is the best?
My point was that I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that rugby is both played and officiated by humans, who are fallible. Two teams could score a legitimate try apiece, but one team's try, for one reason or another, isn't awarded. Both teams could commit the same number of the same offences, but it's possible that they won't be penalised the same number of times. Would it be fair then to say that the team that scored the most points is 'best?'
Luckless Pedestrian- Posts : 24898
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Ok, so taking this out an individual game context would you please both (Stag and luckless) indulge me for a moment and respond with answers of one word to these two questions.
1. Is Richie McCaw the best openside in world rugby?
2. Are Munster a better team than Aironi Rugby?
1. Is Richie McCaw the best openside in world rugby?
2. Are Munster a better team than Aironi Rugby?
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Ring Ring, Ring Ring
Hello.
Can I speak to Mr. Maher please
Yeah go ahead.
First of all to confirm I'm talking to the right person I need you to confirm your details for me please.
Eeeehhhh your ringing me, so you should have them already, no???
Correct sir
Ok then you tell me what you have and ill tell you if they are right.
I can't do that, the only way I can confirm your details is by you giving me yours and seeing of they match what I have
Oh really??? Yeah go flock yourself
Hang up
Interesting phone call
Hello.
Can I speak to Mr. Maher please
Yeah go ahead.
First of all to confirm I'm talking to the right person I need you to confirm your details for me please.
Eeeehhhh your ringing me, so you should have them already, no???
Correct sir
Ok then you tell me what you have and ill tell you if they are right.
I can't do that, the only way I can confirm your details is by you giving me yours and seeing of they match what I have
Oh really??? Yeah go flock yourself
Hang up
Interesting phone call
Suspicious lurker- Posts : 3576
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
1) Richie Mccaw has been the best openside in the world. I'm not trying to be awkward, but I'm not sure if he's still the best openside.
2) Munster are a better side than Aironi. But that would still be true if Aironi beat them.
2) Munster are a better side than Aironi. But that would still be true if Aironi beat them.
Luckless Pedestrian- Posts : 24898
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Was that oen of them Microsoft phone scams,Hugh?
Thomond- Posts : 10663
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Had one like that before Hughie, was genuine it turned out, but they got very annoyed that I wouldn't give them my details and couldn't understand my argument of 'you phoned me, you should know who you are phoning and how do I know you are who you say you are."
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Sport is not all about winning. It is that and a lot more. What about the paying plebs like us who need to be entertained? Who pays their wages? I know certain fans dont give a sheet how their team plays as long as they win. I do. Hate anti-football or anti-rugby. Strangles the game as a spectacle.
If my football or rugby team, played a shoite negative game, Id stop supporting them. Or I'd be far less interested in paying to watch them play. It got like that in the end, with Cheika. Was so glad he left and Schmidt brought us back the running game.
So style of play is essential to me. It aint what you do, its the way that you do it.
Bon Voyage Munsty. Have a great time.
If my football or rugby team, played a shoite negative game, Id stop supporting them. Or I'd be far less interested in paying to watch them play. It got like that in the end, with Cheika. Was so glad he left and Schmidt brought us back the running game.
So style of play is essential to me. It aint what you do, its the way that you do it.
Bon Voyage Munsty. Have a great time.
Gibson- Posts : 14126
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Ok, luckless, I'll rephrase the McCaw question.
1. At the height of his powers has McCaw been the best openside in the world and therefore better than any other openside at that time?
1. At the height of his powers has McCaw been the best openside in the world and therefore better than any other openside at that time?
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
LDCPete wrote:Ok, so taking this out an individual game context would you please both (Stag and luckless) indulge me for a moment and respond with answers of one word to these two questions.
1. Is Richie McCaw the best openside in world rugby?
2. Are Munster a better team than Aironi Rugby?
Yes to both.
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Right Pete, how about this
after 80 minutes its 17-17 both teams scored two converted tries and a penalty, Team Red scored from all their opportunities, team blue scored 3 from 5.
Who is the better team??
after 80 minutes its 17-17 both teams scored two converted tries and a penalty, Team Red scored from all their opportunities, team blue scored 3 from 5.
Who is the better team??
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Luckless Pedestrian- Posts : 24898
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
I have to say it's been a great conversation here today
Luckless Pedestrian- Posts : 24898
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Gibbo, that is a separate argument as you are coming from the point of view of a fan wanting to be entertained having payed for the priviledge of watching.
Different altogether from the debate about whether the better team always wins.
Anyway, hows tings buddy, your boy still home and keeping you on your toes?
Different altogether from the debate about whether the better team always wins.
Anyway, hows tings buddy, your boy still home and keeping you on your toes?
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Gibson wrote:. Hate anti-football or anti-rugby. Strangles the game as a spectacle.
If my football or rugby team, played a shoite negative game, Id stop supporting them.
So style of play is essential to me. It aint what you do, its the way that you do it.
Bon Voyage Munsty. Have a great time.
Yet you support the Dublin footballers?
Thomond- Posts : 10663
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
hughie1986 wrote:Right Pete, how about this
after 80 minutes its 17-17 both teams scored two converted tries and a penalty, Team Red scored from all their opportunities, team blue scored 3 from 5.
Who is the better team??
The teams are evenly matched. Having opportunities and not taking them means nothing. Maybe you could say Team Blue have shown more potential for future games, but on the day they've failed to make the only statistic that matters swing their way despite that so it's not like they deserve to win.
Notch- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
It's Notch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOjXUCM9K04&feature=relmfu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOjXUCM9K04&feature=relmfu
Mickado- Posts : 7282
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
NB - I should point this out I don't believe that teams "deserve to win". I definitely don't think that. Just that its possible to win despite not playing as well as your opponent.
Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Pete, would you say that Munster are better than Aironi?
Luckless Pedestrian- Posts : 24898
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Gibson wrote: If my football or rugby team, played a shoite negative game, Id stop supporting them.
So style of play is essential to me. It aint what you do, its the way that you do it.
Bowlocks! In 2009, you were quite happy to cheer victories for Ireland and Leinster based on a good kicking game and great defence without much flair outside. A Grand Slam and a HEC delivered with hardly a sniff of creativity along the way- if you didn't stop supporting them then, then when would you?
Notch- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Pete,
I was contesting and answering the point, that sport is all about winning. Its not.
And of course the better side normally wins. They won. If a sexhy and strong team like Nederland or Leinster lost to say Ireland and Treviso respectively.... I say its because they didnt play up to their usual standard and were allowed to get strangled. So Ireland and Treviso would be the best teams on the day. Simple.
I was contesting and answering the point, that sport is all about winning. Its not.
And of course the better side normally wins. They won. If a sexhy and strong team like Nederland or Leinster lost to say Ireland and Treviso respectively.... I say its because they didnt play up to their usual standard and were allowed to get strangled. So Ireland and Treviso would be the best teams on the day. Simple.
Gibson- Posts : 14126
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Ok, so yes to both McCaw being better than anyone else and Munster being better than Aironi, even if Aironi beat them on any given day.
So does the fact that it is generally accepted that McCaw gets away with a lot of illegal play due to refereeing error/interpretation not impact on whether or not he is the best?
I know that James Scaysbrook at the Chiefs hasn't got as many caps or won as many matches or trophies, but that's just because of refereeing interpretations and errors that have gone the way of McCaw and Scaysbrook is clearly a 'better' player than McCaw.
No?
But you are saying that you can have an inferior record in a match and be better than your opponent, surely this must be applied across the board?
I know this is a little facetious (sp?) but couldn't think of another way to get across my point about refereeing error/interpretation being part and parcel of the game and shouldn't impact on a decision on who is best.
On to Munster, and I am glad that luckless has qualified what he has put. Munster would still be better even if Aironi beat them. What is this based on, previous record, where they have always won things? Yet when deciding who is better in an individual match you say that it is not about who wins determining who is better. The thought processes of the two scenarios are contradictory to me.
So does the fact that it is generally accepted that McCaw gets away with a lot of illegal play due to refereeing error/interpretation not impact on whether or not he is the best?
I know that James Scaysbrook at the Chiefs hasn't got as many caps or won as many matches or trophies, but that's just because of refereeing interpretations and errors that have gone the way of McCaw and Scaysbrook is clearly a 'better' player than McCaw.
No?
But you are saying that you can have an inferior record in a match and be better than your opponent, surely this must be applied across the board?
I know this is a little facetious (sp?) but couldn't think of another way to get across my point about refereeing error/interpretation being part and parcel of the game and shouldn't impact on a decision on who is best.
On to Munster, and I am glad that luckless has qualified what he has put. Munster would still be better even if Aironi beat them. What is this based on, previous record, where they have always won things? Yet when deciding who is better in an individual match you say that it is not about who wins determining who is better. The thought processes of the two scenarios are contradictory to me.
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Notch wrote:Gibson wrote: If my football or rugby team, played a shoite negative game, Id stop supporting them.
So style of play is essential to me. It aint what you do, its the way that you do it.
Bowlocks! In 2009, you were quite happy to cheer victories for Ireland and Leinster based on a good kicking game and great defence without much flair outside. A Grand Slam and a HEC delivered with hardly a sniff of creativity along the way- if you didn't stop supporting them then, then when would you?
Which brings us right back to the point that started all this this morning, Results are more important than performances
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Gibson wrote:Pete,
I was contesting and answering the point, that sport is all about winning. Its not.
And of course the better side normally wins. They won. If a sexhy and strong team like Nederland or Leinster lost to say Ireland and Treviso respectively.... I say its because they didnt play up to their usual standard and were allowed to get strangled. So Ireland and Treviso would be the best teams on the day. Simple.
Gibbo, precisely, in those particular matches Ireland and Treviso would be the better team courtesy of winning, despite the fact that in the grand scheme of things the other teams are regarded as better.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
Notch wrote:Gibson wrote: If my football or rugby team, played a shoite negative game, Id stop supporting them.
So style of play is essential to me. It aint what you do, its the way that you do it.
Bowlocks! In 2009, you were quite happy to cheer victories for Ireland and Leinster based on a good kicking game and great defence without much flair outside. A Grand Slam and a HEC delivered with hardly a sniff of creativity along the way- if you didn't stop supporting them then, then when would you?
I took that win bacause it was the 1st in 61 years. Hated the rugby we played. If it had carried on like that (ahem) Id lose interest. I was fast losing interest until Kidney actually started trying to play rugby. Albeit we are caught between the past and the future right now.
As for Leinster, totally disagree. We played some stunning rugby to win that HC. Not as good as the last. But pretty good. Remember Munster? Wasps, Tigers et al? I was at them all remember?
I agree that sometimes you have to play ugly and grind out a win. (Quins v Leinster being a great example of that) But, it should not be the Status Quo. Innit?
Last edited by Gibson on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:52 pm; edited 3 times in total
Gibson- Posts : 14126
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
I am gutted, am really enjoying this convo as don't get in much these days, but have got to do a supermarket run before the school run so have to sign off for now. Will be back later, hopefully there will still be a decent debate raving.
peace out
peace out
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
I think you'r bluffing man! I don't think you could just switch it off if you didn't like the style of rugby we played. You might moan and criticise, but come kick off you know in your heart you'd want us to win. And score some nice tries, yeah, but deep down you'll end up cheering for Ireland in spite of yourself!
I like my side to attack and play with the ball as well, believe it or not. I always prefer to see Ulster play with ambition and attack. But I'll still support them if they play expansive rugby, negative rugby or even clueless rugby. It's the paradox of being a sports fan.
I like my side to attack and play with the ball as well, believe it or not. I always prefer to see Ulster play with ambition and attack. But I'll still support them if they play expansive rugby, negative rugby or even clueless rugby. It's the paradox of being a sports fan.
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
https://sites.google.com/site/casadysportspsychologyclass/word-of-the-week/focusontheprocessnottheresult
rodders- Moderator
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Re: The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub
See you later Pete, it's been great!
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