The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub

by Guest Sat 03 Sep 2011, 9:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the virtual rugby pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the David Pocock photo on the bar. That's a banning offence

So pull up a chair....what'll it be?

Ale

by Suspicious lurker Wed 07 Sep 2011, 1:58 pm

Notch wrote:
hughie1986 wrote:Right Pete, how about this

after 80 minutes its 17-17 both teams scored two converted tries and a penalty, Team Red scored from all their opportunities, team blue scored 3 from 5.

Who is the better team??

The teams are evenly matched. Having opportunities and not taking them means nothing. Maybe you could say Team Blue have shown more potential for future games, but on the day they've failed to make the only statistic that matters swing their way despite that so it's not like they deserve to win.

But Notch Team Blue have earned the right to have more scoring opportunities by playing better rugby, does that not make them the better team.

by nottins Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:02 pm

I have a copy of the Blackett report....

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:02 pm

But Team Red have converted 100% of their chances.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:05 pm

hughie1986 wrote:
Notch wrote:
Gibson wrote: If my football or rugby team, played a shoite negative game, Id stop supporting them.
So style of play is essential to me. It aint what you do, its the way that you do it.

Bowlocks! In 2009, you were quite happy to cheer victories for Ireland and Leinster based on a good kicking game and great defence without much flair outside. A Grand Slam and a HEC delivered with hardly a sniff of creativity along the way- if you didn't stop supporting them then, then when would you?

Which brings us right back to the point that started all this this morning, Results are more important than performances

Wrong, imo. BOTH are as important as each other. If you want to watch dross, then so be it. I dont. As do the massive majority of people. They want to be entertained. (I just did an internal Poll) See Barca, See Man Utd. See Leinster. See Toulouse. See Nederland. See me. See you Jimmy. So Im right.

Love you.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:08 pm

Why are ye lot having ficticious games, with ficticious outcomes? It must be the age. Whistle

by **Notch** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:09 pm

hughie1986 wrote:
Notch wrote:
hughie1986 wrote:Right Pete, how about this

after 80 minutes its 17-17 both teams scored two converted tries and a penalty, Team Red scored from all their opportunities, team blue scored 3 from 5.

Who is the better team??

The teams are evenly matched. Having opportunities and not taking them means nothing. Maybe you could say Team Blue have shown more potential for future games, but on the day they've failed to make the only statistic that matters swing their way despite that so it's not like they deserve to win.

But Notch Team Blue have earned the right to have more scoring opportunities by playing better rugby, does that not make them the better team.

Not on the day no, the score is the only measure of how good or otherwise you are.

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:10 pm

Gibbo reading back to yesterday how can you suggest Netherlands were a nice team to watch in the World Cup. I think it was more the fact they were winning that made you see them that way.

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:12 pm

Notch wrote:
hughie1986 wrote:
Notch wrote:
hughie1986 wrote:Right Pete, how about this

after 80 minutes its 17-17 both teams scored two converted tries and a penalty, Team Red scored from all their opportunities, team blue scored 3 from 5.

Who is the better team??

The teams are evenly matched. Having opportunities and not taking them means nothing. Maybe you could say Team Blue have shown more potential for future games, but on the day they've failed to make the only statistic that matters swing their way despite that so it's not like they deserve to win.

But Notch Team Blue have earned the right to have more scoring opportunities by playing better rugby, does that not make them the better team.

Not on the day no, the score is the only measure of how good or otherwise you are.

How boring. I'm glad I don't take this approach. Teams should aim to win as their primary goal. Thats what pro sports are about - winning. But there are many ways to win games.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:12 pm

Thomond wrote:Emjoy it Munsty. I missed the talk on results/performance but here is my view on the Ireland soccer team. I think the way Trap is setting us out to perform is detrimental to the team. The way he sets the team up will mean he won't concede but it inhibits any type of attacking flair we have. The way we perform is effecting our results in this case.

So true. Playing not to lose instead of striving to win - gets you nowhere... eventually. And its phhokin God-awful to watch.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:12 pm

LDCPete wrote:Ok, so yes to both McCaw being better than anyone else and Munster being better than Aironi, even if Aironi beat them on any given day.

So does the fact that it is generally accepted that McCaw gets away with a lot of illegal play due to refereeing error/interpretation not impact on whether or not he is the best?

I know that James Scaysbrook at the Chiefs hasn't got as many caps or won as many matches or trophies, but that's just because of refereeing interpretations and errors that have gone the way of McCaw and Scaysbrook is clearly a 'better' player than McCaw.

No?

But you are saying that you can have an inferior record in a match and be better than your opponent, surely this must be applied across the board?

I know this is a little facetious (sp?) but couldn't think of another way to get across my point about refereeing error/interpretation being part and parcel of the game and shouldn't impact on a decision on who is best.

On to Munster, and I am glad that luckless has qualified what he has put. Munster would still be better even if Aironi beat them. What is this based on, previous record, where they have always won things? Yet when deciding who is better in an individual match you say that it is not about who wins determining who is better. The thought processes of the two scenarios are contradictory to me.

Scays is a GOD. FACT. End of. Chief

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:12 pm

Gibson wrote:
Thomond wrote:Emjoy it Munsty. I missed the talk on results/performance but here is my view on the Ireland soccer team. I think the way Trap is setting us out to perform is detrimental to the team. The way he sets the team up will mean he won't concede but it inhibits any type of attacking flair we have. The way we perform is effecting our results in this case.

So true. Playing not to lose instead of striving to win - gets you nowhere... eventually. And its phhokin God-awful to watch.

True that.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:18 pm

red_stag wrote:Gibbo reading back to yesterday how can you suggest Netherlands were a nice team to watch in the World Cup. I think it was more the fact they were winning that made you see them that way.

No it wasnt Stag. They played great football on the way. They were harder yes, but as usual, the medya stir it up and people just concentrate on the hardness and not the style. They outplayed Brazil, with great passing football. Nuff said.

The Final was dreadful I agree. Anyway, watching them over the last few months has been a joy.

Jeez I get so defensive over Oranje dont I? laughing

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:20 pm

Like Greece in Euro 2004 (was it 2004?) They won, fair play to them, but it was no good to watch.

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:22 pm

Gibbo although Brazil were themselves highly indisciplined against you I thought the Dutch and de Jong in particular were the same.

They were a far cry from the Total Football generation. The Germans were the most aestically pleasing of the tournament.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:23 pm

Germany played some wonderful football in South Africa. They're a young side too.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:28 pm

red_stag wrote:Gibbo although Brazil were themselves highly indisciplined against you I thought the Dutch and de Jong in particular were the same.

They were a far cry from the Total Football generation. The Germans were the most aestically pleasing of the tournament.

Agree with that. But that is the cross we have to bear. Everyone expects the 70's and detest the hard when Ned play like that. They need a balanced mixture of both. Steel and Silk. They have that now. Although Van Bommel is still an Enforcer. As is De Jong. No one feics with them. You need that as well as the sex.

As for Germany - yes. They were and still are. Great team to watch and will be favs for Euro 2012. Until we beat them in the Final...

by **Notch** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:28 pm

red_stag wrote:
Notch wrote:
Not on the day no, the score is the only measure of how good or otherwise you are.

How boring. I'm glad I don't take this approach. Teams should aim to win as their primary goal. Thats what pro sports are about - winning. But there are many ways to win games.

Yeah, but you're not contradicting me there are you? Thats exactly what I believe. I mean, in Hughies example, you could say Team Red or whoever would be the better side if only those passes had gone to hand or their goalkicker hadn't missed a few- but that's a demonstrable failure on the pitch. Yes, you can applaud their intent but they haven't pulled it off. If those passes go to hand or the kicks go over then they are clearly better, but there aren't points for nearly scoring and until you convert your positive play into points and start winning games it means very little.

The best sides will generally be sides that are clinical and can score in a heartbeat- sides with great attacking games. Truly negative play normally only gets you so far. Normally successful teams that are called negative in rugby outclass their opponents up front but capitalise on territory, pressure and turnovers as opposes to flowing backs moves. There's no real equivalent in rugby of playing for a 0-0 draw and putting everyone behind the ball. Just different ways of attacking sides.

That's why I love rugby really.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:38 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Like Greece in Euro 2004 (was it 2004?) They won, fair play to them, but it was no good to watch.

God Lucky, it set football back 50 years. But even good teams kept getting caught out at corners. in that one. They won it mostly on goals scored via corners. That and Jack Charlton style anti-football.

But great teams should have been able to suss that out and beat them. They didnt. Thank Christ they are back to their normal status now. Krap. The Swiss were the same.

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:42 pm

And the Irish. I've read that we've gone over 10 of football without conceding a goal. Thats an amazing achievement. However defense is only one side of the coin.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 2:58 pm

It's unlikely that the football that gets a team through qualification will get them far in the tournament itself. Sven's England found that out, as did Capello's England. It depends what countries' FAs' definition of success is.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:01 pm

I'll say this for ultra-defence minded teams. I like the contrast when great attacking sides, try to break them down. The Italians were genius at defending in the old days. Counter-attacking was a specialty of theirs. And they were brilliant at it.

There is a certain beauty in top class defence. I just dont like it on its own.

I have to say that Richard Dunne was fantastic the other night. The man - along with Given, kept Russia scoreless. It should have been 5-0.

And I hope Ireland make it to EURO2012. The fans alone would help light it up and the country could do with a lift.

I'd love the same from messers BOD and Co. this weekend. And next. And the next...

Believe.

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:03 pm

I'd consider heading over if they made it there. My girlfirend is Polish so she'd have the language.

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:05 pm

Watching Matt Williams again - great pundit.

He has his NZ swear jar. You have to pay in if you refer to them as All Blacks.

Also his comments about NZ public giving up sex - "they could have a 4 year wait . . . .which isn't that big a deal if your a married man"

Smile

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:05 pm

If they did, I just hope they dont get Nederland.

And DONT ask me...

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:08 pm

Hedge your bets Gibbo!!

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:09 pm

A great backs-to-the-wall defensive effort can be one of the greatest things to watch in sport, Gibbo, I'll agree with you there. But if that's all a team offers, after a few games you'll be rooting for them to get beaten.

by Suspicious lurker Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:40 pm

Im starving, pork chop caramelised onions and carrots mixed together, mash roasted wedges and gravey is on the cards for dinner

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 3:44 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:A great backs-to-the-wall defensive effort can be one of the greatest things to watch in sport, Gibbo, I'll agree with you there. But if that's all a team offers, after a few games you'll be rooting for them to get beaten.

Yeah man. True. But, if its your team I suppose you will them on anyway. I did with Ireland in 1988. That was a blast. We played 2 great games of football v Russia and Nederland in our Group. The eventual Finalists. I think they just ignored Charlton. They were brilliant v Russia and robbed v Nederland. Played Russia off the park and unluckily drew that one. Beating England in our 1st major comp, set the madness going for a week or 2. But we had some great players as well as a defensive barrier back then. McGrath, Keane, Bonner, Aldridge, Houghton, Whelan et al.

For de Irish lads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=o5RCozoW-bI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EDQNJmiVsg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9viL6eWFio&NR=1

I was there... Happy Days. zen

Hugs,
That sounds delish man. Hungry now.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 4:53 pm

That does sound good, Hughie.

by Guest Wed 07 Sep 2011, 5:29 pm

Evening all,

Really enjoyed reading back on the debates that have been going on in here today Smile

Munsty - enjoy your time in Turkey!

and I caved into temptation and actually tried to see if I can get on here at work again, turns out I can! Will have to exercise more self control and only use it on my lunch breaks when I'm staying in the office me thinks from now on.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 5:44 pm

Would they be likely to come down hard on you for being on here during work time, Dreamer? As long as it's not affecting your productivity or whatever, it shouldn't matter that much. If you were looking at animal porn it would be different, but a rugby discussion forum is harmless enough I'd have thought.

by Guest Wed 07 Sep 2011, 5:58 pm

I'd have thought so Lucky, but I dunno, current job climate I'd best be extra careful. It definitely doesn't really effect my productivity. I mean yes I am getting more done, but I've never missed a deadline or anything, so it's not too much bother I don't think.

Just been on that thread about the Maori welcome to the Welsh, loved the clip, and loved it even more they sang Lawr ar Lan y Mor, that's such a great song to sing, especially at the rugby, it really gets the crowd going (or it does at PyS anyway!)

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:01 pm

It's a great clip, isn't it? I've heard that the squad chose the song and had been rehearsing voluntarily, which says a lot I think about the spirit of the squad. There certainly seems to be a togetherness that wasn't always apparent in the past.

by Guest Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:05 pm

Yeah definitely, and I was surprised by how well they sounded! Usually when the camera pans across and you hear them singing the national anthem, they're a bit....well let's just say they're not all in tune Wink

Am loving that there finally seems to be a unity in this Welsh squad. It was really weird in the warm up games, I didn't actually feel all that panicked while watching them, they just all seemed very calm. Whether that was due to them just being friendlies, I dunno, guess we'll have to wait and see how they perform on Sunday!

Tis a bit weird that some posters have got the song confused with Ar lan y mor though, they sound completely different!

by Cari Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:05 pm

Evening pub (although everyone's probably gone)

Have I missed much? I didn't really read back properly.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:11 pm

Dreamer, PM Cymro and he'll explain about that.

Evening Cari, there was a good debate here earlier about whether the team that wins a match should automatically be called the better team. Also, Hughie's going to have a pork chop for tea Smile

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:12 pm

Hi Cara darlin. Hoi Dreamer.

I think Wales are in the Zone and the buzz is nicely brewing. Expect a huge battle from them v SA.
I'd love it if ye beat them.

Believe.

by Cari Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:15 pm

Thanks Lucky - my answer would be no, it doesn't make them the better team - assuming "better" means skill, fitness etc. Sometimes a match can be won through good/bad luck/chance. And I hope Hughie enjoys his pork chop.

Evening Gibbo Smile

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:24 pm

Gibbo, I hope you're right. I've seen a real improvement since the Six Nations and the win against England in Cardiff could prove to be significant. Yes, people will say that England should have done more with the possession they had, but we still had to keep them out - and we did, and hit them when we had the chance. The knowledge that we can hold out against big physical teams is priceless.

But I still can't help feeling slightly worried. It's a tough, tough group.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:24 pm

Evening all, one for the wall before I head home:

https://www.606v2.com/t13355-self-deprecating-humour#446684

by Mick(TEFC) Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:30 pm

Followed(on/off) a great conversation aujourdhui,merci.

I was always taught good/better/best;best is ephemeral.

My day has been spent gardening, and the first blackbirds have arrived;at grape picking time and so my paltry grape harvest has been decimated.Thrush also turn up at the same time, but as they are hunted

we never get to see many. So, autumn is on it's way.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:44 pm

Lucky,
I really think ye are in a good place. Its the fact that we are hearing next to nowt from your camp(No Static At All), tells it all for me. Plus, the Polish camp seems to have worked out better for ye than it did for us in 2007. Fit as phhok - which ye will need for 80 mins v SA.

We had a gobshoite Irish coach, who would not shift and change things when they were blatantly going wrong. Kidney has proved to me, that he wont stand for that. He'll change it if necessary. So will Gatland.

Believe x 2.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 6:46 pm

Steak and chips! Bludy luxury!

by **Notch** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 7:08 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Gibbo, I hope you're right. I've seen a real improvement since the Six Nations and the win against England in Cardiff could prove to be significant. Yes, people will say that England should have done more with the possession they had, but we still had to keep them out - and we did, and hit them when we had the chance. The knowledge that we can hold out against big physical teams is priceless.

I still think you need an improvement from that game to win. If you cede as much territory and possession to the Boks, they'll win. You might hold them tryless but it's very likely they'll accrue points via penalties and drop goals. You can't really afford to play the game in your own half. You've got to take the game to them.

I expect Wales to have improved from that, whether or not you win depends on how much.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 7:14 pm

Oh absolutely, Notch. Of course we'd rather have the majority of the territory and possession, and other (better?) sides will punish us in a way England didn't if they have such dominance; but the experience of having withstood the pressure we were under, and to have come back and struck when we had our opportunity, is great for the players to have in their memory banks.

I can't believe the World Cup's almost here. Let's savour it while we can.

by **Notch** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 7:24 pm

Yeah, I agree. It's important that they came through that test and they showed great grit and resolve. It was a very well deserved win for Wales. That was a weird game. Wales couldn't get on the ball for long periods of the game at all. It's going to be an interesting game on Sunday.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 7:27 pm

Our set piece was awful, Notch. Our scrum should be okay with Adam Jones back but how our lineout will fare is anyone's guess.

by **Notch** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 7:34 pm

Well, if it doesn't improve I don't believe you will be celebrating! It's as simple as that. I don't see a reargaurd action being enough. They will put points on the board if you let them play in your 22.

by Cari Wed 07 Sep 2011, 7:42 pm

So, anyway...

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 07 Sep 2011, 7:45 pm

It's true though, Cari.

by Sponsored content