Irish Post mortem

This thread is going to be painful and its time the gloves came off so if you dont like it just ignore it. But Im absolutely sick to the back teeth about what I heard tonight all of which blamed the defeat on ROG and Murray. Heres my take on it



1. Lets get one thing straight -Wales have a better team 1 to 15. I only found this out today but its clear. Their strenght and physicality was superior. They owned the break down which is where they won game. Our half backs were under severe pressure and were forced to change there plans at the last second every time. Warburten murdered us here.

2. Roberts absolutely killed us. And it wasnt in the 10 channel. BOD and Darcy are now the most ineffective centres in top tier Interantional rugby. For the second try Darcy shouted at players that he had the blindside covered - by f**k did he.

3. Front row - Irelands front row has been a revelation in the last 6 months and I am loathed to even think about criticising any player here. Cian Healy and Mike Ross have brought Ireland to this top table and simply have been brilliant. Didnt go well today.

4. Back row - Irelands best weapon in the games where we have turned up. One player has been absent - Heaslip. P. O'Mahony now has to be looked at as a replacement. You cant live on reputation. Would SOB have done so well against Australia if they had a natural 7 Pocock playing??? Not a criticism of SOB as he is not a natural 7. I believe you can live without a natural 7 as long as you commit men to the breakdown.

5. ROG and Murray - ROG had a terrible game - two over cooked kicks in the first half lost us good field position. Some sympathy for Murray as the break down was a mess because we didnt commit numbers and failed to secure our own ball. Pack was going backwards at the rate of knots all day. Did Sexton and Reddan make any difference - imo no- reddans first contribution was 2 poor box kicks into mid field and sexton first kick was an aimless kick into mid field which led to the third try.



Why we lost - the game was lost in the pack. Wales totally dominated here slowing down our ball at best and turning it over at best. Everything Preistland touched turned to gold. Roberts was a human wrecking ball.



Reirements


2. BOD great season in 09 for GS but is just falling off tackles now and not making breaks. Possibly move to 12 but I think should now retire

3. ROG - will retire

4.DOC - times up -great servant

5.Darcy - time to step aside - one of Irelands best ever 12s if not the best

So the fact that Wales scored three times as many tries as Ireland had nothing to do with it?

You should go back to wallowing in you self pity. What a load of tripe. You spoiled it by singling out Rory Best who was one of the most consistent performers we had. Never put in a bad performance and is the catalyst that makes Healy and Ross a front row to be reckoned with.

Rava wrote:You should go back to wallowing in you self pity. What a load of tripe. You spoiled it by singling out Rory Best who was one of the most consistent performers we had. Never put in a bad performance and is the catalyst that makes Healy and Ross a front row to be reckoned with.

How did I spoil it. I said he had a great world cup but I think its time we tried out new hookers. He is getting on and we need to rebuild -do you really think he will be around in next wc



RAVA please outline what other points you think are tripe - Ive explained my point on best

Blimey you’re brave posting this.
I posted my RWC 2011 blog for the Western Mail on exactly this subject pre-game.
I made similar observations and criticisms of the Irish team and got absolutely slammed.
Good luck with this.
Cheers
Paul

a few issues Muff

1. No question Wales were the better team and deserve the win but Ireland didnt really turn up. Wales dominated all facets i agree but Ireland had 60% possession and 60% territory and spent a lot of time in the welsh 22 for zero reward in the first half.

2. Roberts is a big physical guy and to be honest i agree with this point (although maybe not the strength of it). Change definately needed here.

3. agree here. Just need to add depth.

4. POM has looked decent and needs looked at but he doesnt jump straight into the shirt. I could argue that Ryan/Ruddock have done more at provincial level than he has although there form has dipped. heaslip will come good again. The reality was this was our only threat to wales. Without other threats Wales could focus on shutting Fez and SOB down. With more penetration elsewhere will come opportunities.

5. Murray i thought was far too slow in getting ball away, and we did have our fair share of decent ball in the first half. ROG was poor but i dont think he cost us the game or anything like that (ditto with Murray). The reality was Ireland were out on their feet by the time Sexton and Reddan came on and Wales strangled the life out of us. For the future Sexton now needs the shirt full time for good or ill. Murray and Reddan can battle it out.

Retirements;
Why would Rory Best retire. he is 29 and arguably in his best form for Ireland. Bizarre call.

With the others i would tend to agree but rather than retire en masse they should help bring through replacements and still be involved (especially ROG and BOD)

Maybe Ireland shouldn't have sacked Gatty.

Didnt realise Best was only 29 - he looks way older and seems to have been around for ever. Agree he is in best form ever and at 29 he could well be around for 4 years. Will amend my orginal rant.

Thanks

Cheers Muff. He has had a harsh paper round and i thought maybe you werent aware of his age.

I think Kidney needs to earn his corn over the next two years, bringing in the youngsters and in some instances pressuring the provinces to use them.

Backs- Gilroy, Conway, Spence, Jones (obviously on the radar already), Marshall, Jackson, McGrath, Murray, Keatley, O'Halloran all need looked at.

forwards- McAllister, Macklin, POM, Nagle, Ruddock, Ryan, Maguire, Tuohy,

There are others and I apologise for my lack of knowledge of other provinces.

Stand you better include Barnes and Zebo in the backs. They will feature. Barnes looked good at times tonight actually

From Munster Would add Felix Jones and Danny barnes to the backs

Stephen Archer and Mike Sherry to the forwards (to me Sherry is ahead of Varley)

calm down. watched the replay this morning (Sydney time).

Great display from Wales, they deserved it. Think I'll have to download ZULU to compare the Welsh guards defence of Rourkes drift to the Welsh 15's defence on their try line both were epic.

I had tipped Wales to win this one but I thought at half time we had them, that they just couldn't soak up the pressure we were putting on them.

Yes O'Gara had a shocker, the scrum was dodgy and Earls and D'Arcy were abysmal. Wales did a great job of slowing down our ball and played the ref well (very Richie McCawish) but we had our chances and put ourselves in the right position but failed to execute. I think the lack of cutting edge in our backs make us very one dimensional and Wales read that well.

Ireland got caught napping for the 2 Welsh tries and Phillips and SW executed perfectly - the 3rd was just shocking.

Ireland badly need some fresh blood in the centers and a new backs coach - and we need to invest some time in finding a 7 who's going to win turnover ball.

A win at home in the 6N might take ome of the stink out of the tail!

Madness. Why pick out Rory Best? Good quality player. Out of all the players that played you pick a few random ones?
Let's talk Keith Earls performance. Why he was still on the pitch I don't know. He continuously left the line of defense creating dog legs, if your looking for an example look at the opening minutes of the game, kicked aimlessly and done very little in attacking options.

None of us can take away from Wales, they took the game by the neck, but were was our game plan?? Were was our back row running from deep smashing the gain line like they did against Italy and Oz? Apparently the whole team was more content just attacking the fringes of rucks.

I don't mind losing but it was the nature of this loss. Let the whole island down.

meant to say Sting out of the tail, but stink seems somehow apt!

Pointless picking on individual players Wales were more clinical today and won the back row battle that was the difference. I can't ever remember saying that about Wales before.

The main thing Ireland is missing however is an open side flanker. Your open side is a blindside, your blindside is a very good but was well marshalled and your number 8 was only seen being pushed over the touchline a couple of times. Maybe its time to pick two from three and find a genuine openside.

I knew there would be a few left out. Sherry i should have known. To my mind he could be in the 22 by the 6N if he keeps up his form. Not sure about Barnes but Zebo looks decent to me indeed.

Apologies for this long rant (that I’ve scribbled while watching the Oz-SA 1st half). But between the loss yesterday and then being randomly personally insulted by another poster for expressing an opinion... well it’s been on my mind:

POINT 1 - I’ve supported Munster and ROG all my adult life. Like the vast majority of Irish supporters, I support my own province (Leinster) first, followed very closely by Munster... My father, who passed away two weeks ago (two days after I sat in his hospital bed watching the Ire-Oz game with him) supported Munster all his life and we travelled together (along with thousands of other non-Munster Irish) to England in 2008 to passionately scream Munster over the line against Saracens... a win that is only comparable in my rugby memory only to Leinster’s defeat of Munster in 2009 semi, the GS of 2009 and the 2011 HC final. The narrow-minded insult throwing partisans do not represent anywhere near the majority of Irish fans. And when people like myself criticise the selection of ROG it has nothing to do with the provinces. If ROG had seemed the best choice then I couldn’t have cared less whether Sexton played... Like most normal Irish supporters, Ireland comes way way way out in front of Leinster in terms of importance. And Sexton’s kicking had rocked even his most stern supporters. But the physicality worries for these games against the likes of Wales, Australia and others were always there and Sexton had proven himself far superior on numerous occasions in that area.

POINT 2 - As was proven in an earlier thread we did on this site... those who preferred the selection of Sexton over ROG came as much from other provinces to Leinster including many from Munster. Just as those who supported ROG’s selection came from other provinces than Munster. As was proven, the multiple-repetitive-posting partisan “ROG forever” posters are not synonymous with Munster supporters. So stop trying to turn this into the usual bitter nonsense. I’m sick of minority posters bullying, name calling and turning every thread into a bitter red/blue insult throwing contest.

POINT 3 - ROG’s selection was exactly the problem that many posters and commentators felt it could be. And this analysis was/is NOT some conspiracy of “Leinster” supporters. In fact there have been few printed Rugby commentaries that haven’t mentioned it in their analysis. [**See below]

MAIN POINT: Now to finally get down to the issue at hand... To start with ROG clearly had a shocker in the game itself. The kind of game that would have gotten Sexton slaughtered by the minority ROG partisans if it were the other way round. He kicked incredibly poorly (conceding crucial ground on a number occasions), he got picked off and isolated on a number of occasions (including one clear memory of a crucial penalty turn-over), he was involved in the Darcy sideline mess-up that led to Phillips try and basically turned the game just as we were getting back into it, and he made some incredibly strange decisions to refuse penalties in the opening half (when that was surely the main reason ROG was on the pitch in the first place). All that contributed to the psychological pressure of that 10-3 scoreline at half-time.

BUT NONE of this is the real reason why the ROG selection was one of the keys to the game. Anyone can have a poor game after all. Rather the problem was a strategic team one – ie. very little to do with ROG’s fault at all. Picking ROG in a game where all signs pointed to a crucially intense physical engagement from the breakdown through to 10-12 channel... was something that always had a good chance of going wrong and which handicapped a good deal of Irish play. Once the Welsh had rather easily negated ROG’s predictable gameplan of kicking to the corners (which they had done just 7 months ago as well), we were really going to struggle with ball in hand because we were left with ROG playing a rather less effective, backfoot and more chaotic version of Sexton’s game with the Welsh charging him like men possessed. Go back and look at how Ireland played with ROG and you will see that he is (unfortunately by necessity) mostly a passenger sitting 10 yards back when it comes to the big impact attacking charges from Ireland AND even less than that in the big impact defensive engagements. Everytime the welsh saw him they were psyched and primed to charge that channel and Roberts and Warburton were Wales best players as a result.

Worse still (and again just as predicted), the way we chose to go, when Ireland were at the most vital part of the game (the scoreline 10-15 with 25 mins to go) and could crucially have done with wily old ROG storming on/staying on to the pitch to turn the game and guide them home... ROG was then switched out for the less experienced Sexton who was now somehow supposed to inspire a physically battered Irish team with an even more demanding running game. It was simply not a good strategy. Even as someone who had felt Sexton should probably have started this one, I was not particularly happy to see that switch made at such a crucial point.

FINAL MAIN POINT: The idea that Wales were simply “too good” is a strangely negative platitude if you ask me. Things may have gone better with Sexton on from the start and they may not. But even with all the problems that did plague them, even with our no 10 having a bit of a mare in the first half, Ireland dominated large parts of the game (more than we have done in numerous games we’ve won over the years). SOB crossed the line in the 1st half and nearly did so again at a crucial moment in the 2nd. But a random knock-on 2 yards out ended it. So to pretend there was no way it could have gone otherwise if we had improved in perhaps the most important position on the pitch... well that’s just blind pessimism if you ask me. And a refusal to properly look at where things went wrong. Other non-Irish posters have asked what happened to the physicality that the Irish brought to the Australia game. I’m sorry but I see the biggest difference coming from our weakness that we were carrying in that vital 10 channel where the Welsh were always going to focus Roberts and other big runners and where Ireland were always on the back foot and double-covering.

You may not agree. Rugby is a complex game... it’s part of what makes it such a joy as a game and allows a diversity of interesting interpretations. But my view has nothing to do with Leinster. And random insults say more about those posters than those of us who wish simply to discuss rugby. Least of all does it come from any wish to see an incomparable hero like ROG victimised or blamed for everything. Earls had a shocker for the 3rd try. Darce was still mostly to blame for the 2nd one in my book (no matter what others have said). Wales cut the Irish runners to ribbons with their chop tackles. And most of all ROG simply played the game the only way he knew best. It simply wasn’t suited for this game. But I don’t think its unreasonable to see the ROG decision was by far the most important in advance. Kidney’s and Ireland’s old negative conservative instincts came to the fore once again and we left behind what had been proven our best positive rugby form in favour of what we thought was the old dependable kicking game. And I think that will hurt the players and management most of all when they look back.

/RANT (THERAPY SESSION) OVER

BlueMuff some of those points look suspicisiouly similar to the ones I made before and after the game, regarding the fly half and midfield. The points that you slated me for.

I actually don't think there are major concerns for Ireland. The tight 5 went very well for Ireland over the tournament and the back row was phenomenal.

We produced some good back play and scored some very good tries, however over the past few months it has become apparant that our backs are pretty ineffective when our backrow is not getting us on the front foot and we lack a strike runner in midfeild to break an organised defence.

The problem in my opinion is not about individual players, who all performed well, but in the balance of the team.

Rog, who generally played well, makes our backine more ineffective. He is simply too predictable and too deep when we are attacking. Because he doesn't have a running threat he doesn't fix defender meaning the outside backs have less space.

D'arcy and BOD too both did some good things in this RWC. However the lack of a go-to-guy powerful player in the centre was exposed again.

I honestly believe that we are a better side with Sexton at 10. He would have shored us up defensively against Wales and made us a bit less predicable in attack. Murray has given us an extra demension at 9 and he and Sexton are an obvious combination.

I also think Bowe and Trimble should have been tried in the centre. As well as D'arcy played in the last few games, a backline containing BOD, Trimble, Bowe and Earls would have given us more pace and power.

Moving forward I would like to see Spence and Cave be looked at. Both have been in superb form and would give us a bit more strike threat. Gilroy too is one for the near future.

Keatley should come in to the mix at 10 and Felix Jones will come back and put pressure on Kearney, who had a very good tournament.

Donnacha Ryan had a decent competition and Tuohy has started the season well and will give us more 2nd row options.

Agree with the above that Best has been incredible and at 29 should be around a while. Hopefully Strauss, Cronin and Sherry will kick on and put pressure on him.

The Wales game was a massive disappointment but there is no need for fingerpointing or being overly negative. I can't think of a single player who didn't contribute positively to the campaign.

We just need to stick with the positives, which were many and try and bolster where we are weaker.

Spence hasnt been great the last couple of games but he is suffering from being overused by Ulster. He possesses all the physical attributes to do a job. We need to see Marshall get more gametime though. We need a 10-12 axis that is going to pose different questions and be able to bring our back three into the game. Im not certain Spence is that 12 but maybe the right 13 in the future. The key thing is that we get these guys involved pronto.

Gilroy to me looks ready.

This thread is good reading many well thought out posts,, Well done guys.

Its really copying what wales have done well in the provinces etc cymro. we are seeing george north etc come through and the coach has the courage of his convictions in selecting them. Priestland, Lydiate, Faletau, Davies are there as well. Sadly i think we are behind wales and the SH in that regard and perhaps we will need to suffer a little while at the provinces and the 6N while we bring up the next generation

I should add that as an example George North is starting for Wales in a RWC semi final a year after coming on the scene at the Scarlets. He was selected after half a season? If he was Irish we would be saying that he needs to back up last season before selecting him sadly.

Great post Nos. Sorry about your auld fella .

I agree with a lot of your points.

One thing I don't agree with is that rugby is a complex game. For me it is a very simple game. It's about crossing the gainline and generating quick ball. If you do this and win your scrums and lineouts, theres a fair chance you'll win and if the opposition do this then you'll probably lose.

Yesterday it was so obvious how easily Wales were getting over the gainline when they had the ball that the game was in their hands. It was always a matter off time before the floodgates opened.

Wales had a gameplan which was perfectly suited to expose our achilles heel at 10 and 12 defensively and we picked a side which played right into their hands, naively thinking we could peg them back all game and stifle their possession.

Gatland pulled off a couple of masterstrokes. Firstly he picked Halfpenny at 15, who read all Rog's kicks and booted them back with interest. Secondly he switched Williams and North so we couldn't use the cross field kick for Bowe against Williams.

With North and Roberts crashing down our midfield it was all too easy for Wales as they were always on the front foot. We were out smarted and out muscled.

Backs - Cave

westisbest wrote:Backs - Cave

yes......

Standulstermen wrote:Spence hasnt been great the last couple of games but he is suffering from being overused by Ulster.

I think he's been a one man tour de force stand. He consistantly crosses the gainline, gets stuck in in the rucks, tackles hard and win restarts. He's shown great hand too and has been the perfect foil for Cave, who if he could stay injury free, definitely looks international class.

Gilroy looks electric but wing is still a strong position for Ireland. I'd like to see all these guys in a green shirt by next Autumn if not sooner but I think Marshall is still a couple of seasons away.

I think the players that have been put forward to retire in this tread already should retire for a start and the many younger players we have need to be brought in to the time now and develop them for the next world cup.
Hopefully we could see a team like this in the next few years (not straight away mind you they need to be eased in)

Healy, Best/Varley, Ross, (Replaced with Archer and Hagan eventually)
POC, Ryan/Tuohy,
F1, Heslip/POM, SOB,
Murray,
Sexton,
BOD/Marshall,
Trimble/Cave/Spence/Barnes/Bowe,
Earls, Jones/Kearney Bowe/Trimble/McFadden

All I will say is it looks very promising and the depth is very strong not to menstion the players I would not have starting like McAilister, Keatly, Ruddock etc.

I think the only thing Marshall needs is gametime. He looked far more dangerous than Spence against the Dragons. Spence is a cracker rodders but he didnt really break any delf against Treviso because a crash ball centre is easy to read. Im not knocking the guy, i think he is class but Ulster should have used him as a decoy on friday. He is being overused provincially. His tackling is top notch though i agree. He is physcially imposing.

Like i said in the Ulster thread i am probably being reactionary but when was the last time an Irish back stood up a defender and beat him all ends up? I cant recall. Maybe the russian game but thats about it. Wing is a strong position but it wont be if we continue with the same picks like we have in the centre without bringing in competition we will end up just as toothless as we are now.

[quote="Standulstermen"]I think the only thing Marshall needs is gametime. He looked far more dangerous than Spence against the Dragons. Spence is a cracker rodders but he didnt really break any delf against Treviso because a crash ball centre is easy to read. Im not knocking the guy, i think he is class but Ulster should have used him as a decoy on friday. He is being overused provincially. His tackling is top notch though i agree. He is physcially imposing.

Like i said in the Ulster thread i am probably being reactionary but when was the last time an Irish back stood up a defender and beat him all ends up? I cant recall. Maybe the russian game but thats about it. Wing is a strong position but it wont be if we continue with the same picks like we have in the centre without bringing in competition we will end up just as toothless as we are now. [/quote]

I would argee with your point on Marshall and he needs a bit more time in the Pro12 before stepping up. BOD should be moved to 12 for now and gradually be phased out for Marshall.

Standulstermen wrote:
Like i said in the Ulster thread i am probably being reactionary but when was the last time an Irish back stood up a defender and beat him all ends up? I cant recall. Maybe the russian game but thats about it.

Bowe against Italy springs to mind when he set up Bods try. Trimble has made some nice line breaks too, hence I think these guys should be considered in the centre. It doesn't matter how smart your centres are or how many tackles the make, if your 12 can't break the gainline and the 13 can't make an outside break it will limit your options in attack.

Wales have shown quite clearly that if Ferris gets dragged into the tight 5 donkey work, you can isolate and stop O'Brien and if you stop O'Brien then you stop Ireland. When our pack is on top and Ferris and Healy get involved in the carrying then it frees up space for O'Brien and we are very hard to stop but beyond that we don't have enough attacking options, at least not with the side we selected against Wales.

However we shouldn't lose sight of the positives. We didn't become bad overnight. We have some real strengths to our team and we shouldn't focus too much on what went wrong when so much went right.

Bowe didnt stand up the defence, he got on the outside and ran a good,line. Trimble runs good lines too but im talking about being able to stand up and beat a man. We have strengths rodders i agree and a new backs coach is necessary and vital.

That being said i dont believe we should leave ourselves in the situation we find ourselves in now at centre. We have consistently picked 3 guys in there and we really dont trust 1 of them and the others are underperforming. Bowe is regarded as a must pick as is Earls (although he has shown some form) and that isnt healthy. Not with Conway, Gilroy, Zebo etc waiting in the wings. Bowe and Trimble will be over 30 by the next RWC. are they viable options? IM not certain. Im not saying we jettison them right away but we make them fight for their place. Look how well ROG has played since Sexton came on the scene

Stand, I was just looking at the match stats and the interesting thing is that in nearly all the stats we were superior.

The one standout stat was that we made 11 handling errors to Wales 4.

Part of this was down to Wales pressure but I think we were forced into playing too much rugby in the wrong area's of the field.

ROG, D'arcy and BOD is a recipe for disaster in midfield in my opinion. They were singled out by Fitzpatrick after the game.

If you play a guy like ROG, who can 'only' pass or kick you need to surround him with ball carriers and and strike runners who he can ship the ball to, otherwise it's all to predictable.

Look at priestland. He just ships to Roberts and North and it's so simple and effective.

Sexton brings the ability to dummy and break which just keeps the defence in two minds and creates more space for the players around him. It's no coincidence that our biggest victories have come with him at 10.

Bowe and Trimble will certainly still be viable options come the next WC. I think in the short term BOD and Bowe would be an excellent combination with Spence, Earls and Cave all providing alternatives until Luke Marshall is ready. Fitzgerald is playing 12 now too, but I have doubts about that.

There are options but we need to look at them. Wallace and McFadden were, and still are, red herring options in the centre in my opinion and neither offer anything more than what we have already.

I don't think we need too many personel changes straight away though and everyone who played in the RWC should still be available for selection come the 6N but we need to be more progressive when it comes to selection.

Good points Rodders but i still think Roberts can be nullified though. Sadly you are right in that BOD, ROG and D'arce werent physically up to it but i think others could be. I wont get into criticising the selection of ROG because i think it was a 50/50 call and not a bad one but going forward he shouldnt be selected. Its time for Sexton now to be consistently selected.

I still dont know why we consider the youngsters not ready. IMO we are stifling youngsters by not giving them chances. Cave and Spence for all their attributes isnt a creative centre pairing. It is physically impressive and certainly dynamic but not inventive.

As i said on the Ulster thread, with Pienaar, Muller et al returning do we have a lot to be gained from persisting with Humph over Jackson. I think starting Jackson could be much better than Humph but are we going to wait and wait to give him gametime?? Similar situation with Marshall. Do we sacrifice some short term results for long term gain (potentially).

as it is jackson probably wont see any squads until the 6N (and maybe not then)

Cian healy was picked and persisted with for Leinster when he was under 20 and he was persisted with despite being slated for not being able to scrummage. The upshot is that now we have a world class LH at the age of 24. sometimes of course this wont work but when it does it could be so beneficial.

Im not certain Trimble and Bowe will still be options in 2015. Who knows though

Standulstermen wrote:

1. No question Wales were the better team and deserve the win but Ireland didnt really turn up.

Ireland turned up. But they had no answer to the questions Wales asked. Beaten by a better team.

Stand if the young guys are playing better than the older guys then they should be selected now. Spence, Keatley, Tuohy and Cave are certainly knocking on the door.

Likewise if the older guys are playing better then there's no reason to discard them yet. Most are contracted until 2013 but we have to start building for 2015 sooner rather than later.

I would like to see BOD resign the captancy though. I'm not sure who takes the armband but it has to be someone who'll be there in the next RWC.

ROG still has something to offer but if you are going to start him then you have to also change the players around him so suit his strengths and cover his weaknesses. Kidney didn't do this and we were exposed.

It was a massively disappointing defeat, the worst ever maybe, but we have plenty to build on and to a man the players did themselves proud.

wonder_man wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

1. No question Wales were the better team and deserve the win but Ireland didnt really turn up.

Ireland turned up. But they had no answer to the questions Wales asked. Beaten by a better team.

No one is questioning Wales were the better side on the day and deserved to win but that certainly wasn't Irelands best performance and our tactics and selection certainly contributed to our downfall.

I dont agree that we start the players regardless of age. ROG shouldnt start imo, neither D'arcy; regardless of how they are playing. I agree on the Captaincy btw. A fresh approach is needed and we need to build. You dont build by keeping the same old faces.


Wonderman

I disagree, Ireland didnt turn up. Taking nothing away from wales but any pub side would be disappointed by the tries we gave away. In no way am i saying that Wales werent the better team btw.

The Phillips try was the killer. It was a very soft one to concede. After that Wales had a period of sustained pressure that lead to Davies try and it was always going to come.

We had a great opportunity to get back in the game but BOD knocked on with the pickup a few metres from the Welsh line.

I don't agree that we didn't turn up but there were a lot of things we could have done better that may or may not have made difference. Spurning the kickable penalties was a mistake in hindsight as well.

We had chances but ultimately Wales were more clinical and better in attack and defence and we were always chasing the game and lacked composure, whereas Wales always looked comfortable.

Ire Wales

1 Clean breaks 2
8 Defenders beaten 11
10 Offloads 0

As if to further emphasise the point. Wales didn't make a single offload compared to our 10 but yet beat more defenders.

This again shows how we were throwing the ball around but not able to get the end result, whereas Wales were using their big men running straight and hard and it was far more effective.

We played all the attacking rugby but Wales played the smart and effective rugby.

All 3 tries were soft. We played as poor as we did in the 6 Nations.

Stats are misleading rodders. Most of our offloads were by static, tackled carriers to static forwards yards behind the gainline. The only time i can recall a dangerous offload was reddan getting his arms free and finding SOB.

Is Kearneys 'offload' that went straight to Roberts counted in that? That was another idiotic piece of play

I think you guys are being very hard on Ireland. They are a great team, but, and believe me I am surprised to say it but, they came up against a much better welsh team.

Ireland, France, England and SA have not advanced or progressed in the last six months.

Their results have been erratic, but their performances consistent, sometimes it worked others it didn't.

Wales were similar in the six nations and AIs. But garland rejuvenated his team with talented players who were proving themselves in the magners and HEC. A decision that has really lifted Wales since.

Thomond wrote:All 3 tries were soft. We played as poor as we did in the 6 Nations.

Hmm I think thats harsh. Certainly the set piece and discipline was much better. However the some of the same faults came back to haunt us. Too many errors in the opposition red zone and too many handling errors. A lack of composure under pressure from experienced players in contrast to the likes of Warburton and Priestland who never faultered no matter what we through at them. Ferris and O'Brien were thoroughly dominated and Halfpenny outfoxed ROG's boot and we had no plan b.

Rodders we were nowhere at the breakdown, Murray was always searching for the ball.

Maestag

I dont think we are being harsh. Ireland were poor yesterday, wales were brilliant. They deserve credit for that but Ireland have been toothless in attack for a while now. A large part of that is Gaffney and a large part of that is the centre.

I still am not certain whether Bowe or Trimble will have another RWC in them. Of the top four nations only Shane Williams and Vincent Clerc are over 30 in the starting wingers. Ireland have positives like the backrow and a competitive front row but unless we augment that with a potent backline with threats at 10,12 and 13 (that Wales now possess in abundance it must be said) then it will be easy for good teams and good coaches to counteract us.

Thomond wrote:Rodders we were nowhere at the breakdown, Murray was always searching for the ball.

For my money he was too far behind the play at times as well but i take your point. I still think we produced enough decent ball in the first half to score but his distribution was slow. Still he is in pole position for the jersey imo and i have seen him play for Munster where he has got a good service out.

maestegmafia wrote:
Wales were similar in the six nations and AIs. But garland rejuvenated his team with talented players who were proving themselves in the magners and HEC. A decision that has really lifted Wales since.

Yeah I agree with that. Gatland had the courage to drop guys like Stephen Jones, Ryan Jones, James Hook etc. and put his faith in Priestland, Davies, North, Faliteau etc.

He didn't discard Priestland after despite his uncovincing displays with the boot and it paid off. Contrast to Kidney going back to ROG at the 1st sign of choppy waters. Bar picking Murray we really haven't been prepared to take any chances in the big games.

It's easy to look at things in hindsight but certainly Gatlands bold descisions paid off whereas we went for the safe options and it didn't. Wales were younger, fresher and fearless and we couldn't live with it when it mattered.

That said if Ireland had one everyone would be saying the opposite.

It was Stand, he was laboured at the breakdown at times. I think his fitness levels aren't as high as the other lads, he has only been playing top flight rugby for 6 months. He has shown promise though. It is difficult to look good when you're on the backfoot.

Thomond wrote:Rodders we were nowhere at the breakdown, Murray was always searching for the ball.

Yes and no. I though we shaded the breakdown for parts of the game. When we started chasing the game our runners were getting isolated and Warburton started getting turnovers. I agree our tight 5 were a tad off the pace though.

I think the differences between the sides were marginal in a lot of areas is opposed to Wales being massively better in one area. We mustn't panic but were inferior in nearly every area and we need to address that.

Agreed Thomond. I think between him and Reddan we have two decent scrum halfs and Murray has the potential to be better than decent, certainly until McGrath comes through.

Rodders
I agree we dont have the courage of our convictions in picking younger guys but this goes right the way down to provincial level. How can kidney pick McFadden at 12 over D'arcy when Schmidt doesnt for instance?
Similarly how can we look at Jackson/Marshall when they will be nowhere near the squad until february.
Murray and Jones at least were given gametime at Munster.
Can we pick Nagle when he is behind MOD/Ryan?