Ireland post mortem

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

TV replays showed it was a penalty or at the very least he gave Barnes an excuse to penalise him...

Our midfield was awful
Our backrow is unbalanced and was outplayed again.

When we had the ball we were relatively clueless.

I wouldnt be unhappy to see Kidney leave but I dont think it makes a difference who replaces him.

I think that Heaslip should be dropped from the 22 altogether. Other than that i would add in players like Zebo, Kearney jr, earls in the centre and ryan in the second row.

Interesting DOD. I thought Heaslip was the pick of our back row and sob and ferris weren't great. I agree regarding he gave the excuse to penalise him but to me it still wasn't a penalty.

Don't want to dwell on that. Agree completely regarding our midfield and disagree regarding it doesn't matter who would replace kidney.

Ryan is a definite for me and made a mockery of the decision to bench him. W seemed to throw the ball left and right with no sense of lines, angles, gaps etc.

To be honest DOC did well in the first half and was great at the breakdown and tackling but we didnt have enough ball in terms of seeing him clearing out etc....

Heaslip was the more obvious of the backrow but SOB tackled well, Ferris looked tired (and slightly injured towards the end). But Heaslip isnt next to near as good as he used to be....just needs a good kick up the h..e

Forget the penalty at the end - that's a smokescreen - this was a welsh side showing 6-7 forced changes, it was still a good side but the manner in which they bossed most of the game, posession and territory tells the true story and I think that StandUlster is right to try and make sense of where Ireland go from here. I think this game has exposed a lot and it will severely dent Irish confidence - next weeek should be seen as a great opportunity but its a quick turnaround and I think there have to be some personnel changes.

I have to say I thought heaslip was the pick of the pack w poc. Heaslip made hard yards, offloaded frequently and sensibly, won a lineout against te head, I thought he was good along w poc, best and Kearney.

Stand I agree with what u say mainly. The lack of any sort of attacking structure/competency for me is the most worrying thing. Yeah we scored two tries but we didn't look like a fluid, slick, dangerous team that can cut you open if you aren't paying 100% attention. We can't see/exploit space and are completely obsessed with the idea of beatin up the other team in the most neandathal way possible. Varying lines, dummy runners,and pace from depth are unseen and haven't been seen from Ireland in quite a while.

I do think the backrow is good I just have a problem with how/where/when they are used. The rest of the team are not pulling their weight in my opinion apart from the few aforementioned.

Very few positives other than lineout, Darcy showing improved vision, mcf looking dangerous at very infrequent times, heaslip linking well. Sin e ceapaim

Kidney has to feel a shadow coming up behind him now.

I would probably go for benching SOB (on season form not the match) and bringing POM in. again I say the likes of POM or Henry has made their name this season by being a complete nuisance at the breakdown. Give them a crack.

I think DOC was quiet but he wasn't alone. As bad a game from ferris as I can remember. if we are going to have a 12 who is ther to tackle and offer little else draft in spence as he is better physically an D'arcy now. I dont want that. To my mind we need ball players and I think the only one available is paddy wallace. Earls should come in to (god willing).

I have no issue persisting with Murray due to his age but. Thought he was very ponderous today. Wouldnt disagree with the change of wingers and n todays performance I wouldn't have Bowe above Gilroy (from an ulster perspective:sub Zebo/Kearney in as appropriate)

I think our best chance against France is to go out and fling the ball around and have a crack....Mick Doyle style. I think Toulouse got suckered by Quins and Gloucester into playing that sort of game and I think that St André will have them playing a structured game so why not try to get them opened up...they might hammer us or we might surprise them...either way its better than death by a thousand cuts...

Which is why I would have lots of young players who dont have any fear and give them a shot...

1) Healy
2) Best
3) Ross
4) Ryan
5) O'Connell
6) Ferris
7) SOB
8) Heaslip
9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Trimble
12) Wallace
13) Earls
14) Bowe
15) Kearney

This should be the team, because at least that centre partnership presents some danger to the opposition for a change. Also Wallace and Earls have both been very sound defensively recently. Then again we could be picking the world's best in each position and still do crap with Kidney's tactics.

Stand-
Sob in fairness has been playing very well this season so far and especially at the breakdown he has started winning many more turnovers and has really taken it upon himself to be more than just a ball carrier.

Agree re:Wallace I think he'd help us no end and wish Fitz was fit.

I think Bowe would be lucky to retain his place. Similarly SOB. I would add ferris too but that is his first bad game post RWC.

I thought POC was a bit..... Meh

Maybe we could free SOB up by playing him at 8 then. I don't think e has been stellar and he wasn't in with a sniff today

Too many of that team there on reputation or not good enough in the step up to international.
For example if Bowe was playing as badly as he is for the O's in an Irish province he would not be picked.
SOB was very poor at the breakdown today...gave away 3 penalties and didnt slow down any ball....

Yes POC was not great but probably our best forward.

Without both POC and BOD on the field we seem to suffer in leadership stakes.

I agree about POC. And I agree with Pete about SOB. I think both Ferris and SOB were primarily used to make covering tackles. I would like to know their tackle count, especially SOB, as he really seemed to save the centres a few times and make good tackles on the big runners for Wales. I thought he did well in this regard, though he gave away a silly penalty and wasn't spectacular. He wasn't at fault for our lack of security at the breakdown imo however, that job does not solely fall down to the 7.

Who would you replace Bowe with?

IMO Ireland always seem to want to speed up play and try to score off first or 2nd phase ball - They need to get those big boys making the hard yards, they need to be more patient. Their strength in the tight 5 is often keeping it tight and driving through mauls collectively until the right time to move the ball comes - They just seem to be trying to force things and have done for the past couple of years. They have a back row that should be able to make the hard yards together with ease when you look at them. I know it's not as simple as I make out but I would have expected more driving mauls from this lot - There is little penetration behind and why didn't a big fella like Trimble get off his wing like North and cause chaos in the midfield - he's a great strike runner. There just didn't seem much organisation out there

Rory I dont want to get into another bunfight with you but in previous posts you were talking about SOB being great at the breakdown and a natural 7 and developing in that way. Now you say its not his primary objective. You are right to an extent but the balance in the backrow is poor. SOB made the most tackles for Ireland which is really more a blindsides job. He gave away at least two penalties and possibly three being off his feet....

Standulstermen wrote:Maybe we could free SOB up by playing him at 8 then. I don't think e has been stellar and he wasn't in with a sniff today

I think he has been best at 7 though in all honesty. And he should continue to develop there. At 6/8 this season he hasn't been as effective as he previously has been with his runs but that is how it goes. He has added more to his game however. I think some patience is needed while he does adjust to playing against the top 7s in the world, but also we need to primarily fix our main problems such as the centres. I thought SOB and Ferris had to focus on making those tackles that our centres should be making themselves, instead of focusing on their own games. Like that is definitely going to nullify their games somewhat.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I agree about POC. And I agree with Pete about SOB. I think both Ferris and SOB were primarily used to make covering tackles. I would like to know their tackle count, especially SOB, as he really seemed to save the centres a few times and make good tackles on the big runners for Wales. I thought he did well in this regard, though he gave away a silly penalty and wasn't spectacular. He wasn't at fault for our lack of security at the breakdown imo however, that job does not solely fall down to the 7.

Who would you replace Bowe with?

+1

Our backrow weren't as bad as the looked IMO.

I agree Trimble and Bowe should have come in more.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I agree about POC. And I agree with Pete about SOB. I think both Ferris and SOB were primarily used to make covering tackles. I would like to know their tackle count, especially SOB, as he really seemed to save the centres a few times and make good tackles on the big runners for Wales. I thought he did well in this regard, though he gave away a silly penalty and wasn't spectacular. He wasn't at fault for our lack of security at the breakdown imo however, that job does not solely fall down to the 7.

Who would you replace Bowe with?

+1

Our backrow weren't as bad as the looked IMO.

I agree Trimble and Bowe should have come in more.

I dont know about how they looked but they didnt play particularly well

DOD wrote:Rory I dont want to get into another bunfight with you but in previous posts you were talking about SOB being great at the breakdown and a natural 7 and developing in that way. Now you say its not his primary objective. You are right to an extent but the balance in the backrow is poor. SOB made the most tackles for Ireland which is really more a blindsides job. He gave away at least two penalties and possibly three being off his feet....

I meant in that game DOD - for Leinster this season I think he has been stellar at the breakdown. I don't think he is a natural 7 btw I don't think I ever said that but he is the best we have to it, and he is a brilliant 7 in his own way. This game he was used very defensively (not really how he plays at all). I thought he made the most tackles, do you know how many? Many 7s make the most tackles in a game. It is a bit old fashioned to think that the blindside does this.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the likes of Ferris and SOB aren't playing the type of game they do for their provinces. And I think that comes down to the centres. Although the counter argument would be that Leinster play the same centres used today, and I would say to that that McLaughlin would generally be a very defensive player who makes a lot of tackles, and would do the job expected of Ferris/SOB today. Remember how Worsley was used against Roberts a few years ago? I feel that was the role played by SOB and Ferris today, but that really isn't their strength.

Well why not play the one player we have who is close to being a 7 which is POM..

RE 7s making tackles...you are probably right but when he is doing the tackling he isnt doing the main part of his job as a 7 (and neither Heaslip or Ferris were doing it either).

I would agree SOB and ferris were babysitting but we all gave off when we thought Wally babysat ROG. Time to pick centres that can handle themselves in that case. I agree with DOD In part that I would like to see ferris tighter in, hitting rucks, counterucking, and making a nuisance of himself ala 2009.

Not suggesting I would drop POC lads, he is our leader but I was disappointed today. Like I say the only two I thought can hold heads high after today are Kearney and best.

If a seven is making tackles he is rarely on his feet over the ball. That's why teams try to run at mccaw and pocock to take them off their feet. I would be reluctant to blame Trimble and Bowe for not coming in. To my mind there is a fundamental lack in attacking thinking. The one move I recall was McFadden cutting backwhich was used twice to little effect. Beyond that I can't think of anything

Yeah but in my opinion, SOB is the closest we have to a 7. A "natural" 7s job is to disrupt the opposition ball and I think Ireland did that, we slowed them down. Our problem was securing our own possession, as we lost it in contact, at the breakdown, and kicked it away everytime. That comes down to nearly every player on the pitch today, who did silly things like that.

Heaslip, Ferris and SOB need to be sharing their role more. We don't need to have one doing this, one doing that - they ALL can do it to a degree. SOB I think is the best of all of them at the breakdown though. So he is doing grand at 7. I once again compare the French backrow of the world cup final, against the best 7 in the business, outplaying the NZ pack. They all share this role (as do we, with the likes of Best etc).

Wallace babysat ROG because he had to. Now, especially without BOD, our centres have to be babysat, and that takes both flanker because both D'Arcy AND McFadden were both missing crucial tackles. We need to lose D'Arcy firstly, he has been persisted with for far too long. McFadden at 12 or nowhere, preferably option 2. No more of this babysitting nonsense.

Well done Ireland, don't be too disheartened as you have a great team.

maestegmafia wrote:Well done Ireland, don't be too disheartened as you have a great team.

Thank you man, but we don't like the fact that yours is currently better

Rory_Gallagher wrote:1) Healy
2) Best
3) Ross
4) Ryan
5) O'Connell
6) Ferris
7) SOB
8) Heaslip
9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Trimble
12) Wallace
13) Earls
14) Bowe
15) Kearney

This should be the team, because at least that centre partnership presents some danger to the opposition for a change. Also Wallace and Earls have both been very sound defensively recently. Then again we could be picking the world's best in each position and still do crap with Kidney's tactics.

Don't think an untried untested center pairing is the answer. However your latter point rings true.

Some earlier comment mentioned heaslip getting a kick in the bum (tad unfair as he was probably most effective back row yesterday), the reality is the whole squad need a slap in the face. Unfortunately I don't think DK is the man for this. He has failed to temper this team and instill any sense of ruthlessness or "manic aggression". It seems players come into the Irish camp brimming with confidence and energy from their provinces and Declan hands out the slippers and horlicks and asks them all to chill out.

Imagine Wales and Irelands team training session on Monday morning.

Wales will be laughing and joking thinking that if they can go to Dublin missing so many first choice players and beat a near as doesn't matter full strength Irish squad then "jeez you know what we might be in with a chance this year..............."

Irish team will have to drag themselves out of bed, shell shocked and deeply deeply worried about going to Paris next weekend. We could very possibly get an unbelievable spanking in Paris regardless of what squad or combinations we choose. Not good Mr Kidney, not good at all..........................

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Well done Ireland, don't be too disheartened as you have a great team.

Thank you man, but we don't like the fact that yours is currently better

Well we cant all be the best at the same time. Wales played very well today so did Ireland, that was a classic match that we all have enjoyed great rugby by both teams and certainly what we all needed to watch after last nights match.

Reading your posts some of you are being far too critical of minute details, coach included. DK is a bright man, Ireland will take this in their stride and become a better side.

You can learn a great deal more from a loss than a win and don't us Welsh know that over the last twenty years.

Well an untried centre partnership could not possibly be any worse than what we currently have. We have nothing to lose there IMO.

Unfortunately that is the point maestegmafia, we lost against you at the world cup and don't seem to have learnt from our loss at all I think that is why Kidney is being so heavily criticised.

Rory. Would say both POM and Henry are closer to a 7 at the minute. Are they better players? Probably not but they are better 7's. I don't think he slowed Wales down at all. He was conspicuous by his absence in the drive before the last penalty when Wales went through countless phases and 50/60 yards.

Not saying the penal was his fault but I don't think he slowed down ball or was much use today at all. Both he and ferris were ver underwhelming.

Maybe so Rory...!

But that was a very good Irish team that played a different brand of rugby, but both teams had matured since the last encounter.

Ireland could have won that game as much as Wales, there was very very little in it between the two teams.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well an untried centre partnership could not possibly be any worse than what we currently have. We have nothing to lose there IMO.

true, won't agrue that with you but not sure it would have made a difference yesterday who we had in there as the Welsh have our number in that department.

I think it was our general lack of aggression and I have to say not enough respect for this Welsh team. It felt like Ireland thought they had some sort of right to win this one.

After the sin bin Ireland stepped up a gear and within a couple of minutes scored a well worked try and then seemed to switch off, the ease with which Wales made it up to our 22 so late in the game was astonishing.

On average Wales are 9kg a man heavier than Ireland in the backline and they used it to their advantage.
It's not just bulk though they showed today how skillful they are with ball in hand.

Standulstermen wrote:Rory. Would say both POM and Henry are closer to a 7 at the minute. Are they better players? Probably not but they are better 7's. I don't think he slowed Wales down at all. He was conspicuous by his absence in the drive before the last penalty when Wales went through countless phases and 50/60 yards.

Not saying the penal was his fault but I don't think he slowed down ball or was much use today at all. Both he and ferris were ver underwhelming.

I don't agree Stand. Henry maybe, but not POM. POM is a menace all over the place like, a true madman, but he can give away a fair few penalties and doesn't seem like a clever sort of breakdown player. SOB didn't show his brains at the breakdown either today, but he has for Leinster this season. Henry has been improving massively as a 7, but I feel he is still behind SOB. I hope SOB can show the same skillset he does for Leinster when playing at 7, but as I have said it all depends on what gameplan Ireland want to play. Currently we can throw in the NZ backrow and I think it will make flip all difference to be honest.

Sometimes a coaching team just goes stale. Ireland don't look like a team with any belief in what they're doing. It's hard to tell what the game plan was today. But whatever philosophy Kidney is trying to get across, it isn't working. The team morale is fragile, in stark contrast to the new resurgent Wales, who are brimming with confidence and belief. It seemed inevitable that Wales would win that, even when behind. They did to us what we used to do them and England consistently.

I saw Sexton interviewed on BBC today. He sounded like he was just churning out the prepared team line about how they can't be running the ball from everywhere like Leinster do, because this is test level. Maybe that's true. Maybe it's not. But Sexton didn't look like he believed a word of what he saying for the interview. The team has failed to many times under Kidney. They're past the point of return. A change is needed.

Nearly every player is playing worse in green, than they do for the provinces. All the units are functioning worse than they do for the provinces. Confidence, composure, spirit and killer instinct makes our players stand out at Heineken Cup level. In green, these attributes can't be seen at all.

If Ireland do themselves justice and perform to their best and still lose then fair enough. But we're not living up to our potential and haven't been for three years. We've lost to France 3 times in a row with a 4th coming up. We've lost to Wales three times in a row. We lost to England in the RWC warm up. We lost at home to Scotland in 2010. We very nearly lost to Italy this last season. We should be better than that.

Excuses
2010: We just need to get used to the new tackle laws and develop a new style
2011 6 Nations: We're just preparing for the World Cup. It's all about the World Cup
RWC warmups: We're just giving game time to players
RWC: We just didn't do ourselves justice on the day.

What's gonna be the excuse for under-performing in 2012?

Isn't Fitz back for France?

Bit of a risk to play him after not playing since December but would like to see him on the left and Trimble on the right.

Bowe was awful but he does pop up with special plays.

The thought of Fofana and Rougerie running at Darcy and McFadden is scary. Presume Earls will be back so hopefully McFadden will move inside but we all know it wont happen.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Nearly every player is playing worse in green, than they do for the provinces. All the units are functioning worse than they do for the provinces. Confidence, composure, spirit and killer instinct makes our players stand out at Heineken Cup level. In green, these attributes can't be seen at all.

Well, its one of two things -
a) the players couldn't be arsed at international level because they are so successful at heineken cup level (Munster players used to be accused of this when winning a lot of Heineken Cups).
or
b) international rugby is of a higher standard than provincial rugby (or at least the pool stages of the Heineken Cup). Sexton couldn't organise an attack today because they were all too busy defending. Trimble & Bowe couldn't come in off the wings too much to give the centres a dig out, because of the threat of the Welsh big, skilful wingers. And no team in the Heineken Cup have such an aggressive defence as Wales do.

or
c) Kidney is doing a poor job of getting the best out of the players at his disposal?

Feckless Rogue wrote:or
c) Kidney is doing a poor job of getting the best out of the players at his disposal?

Kidney can't get the cheque book out and bring in a few SH players when short a player or two.

But surely kidney should be able to come up with a system wherein our weaker members are not exposed or are rather better used in combination with players like POC, ferris, Heaslip, best, sexton, kearney who have all been excellent against these guys and there compatriots. Wont be popular but wesley fofana and rougerie got little change out of Wallace and cave /whitten despite the presence of malzieu and sivivatu in the wings.

I genuinely believe paddy Wallace has to play 12 now

Standulstermen wrote:But surely kidney should be able to come up with a system wherein our weaker members are not exposed or are rather better used in combination with players like POC, ferris, Heaslip, best, sexton, kearney who have all been excellent against these guys and there compatriots. Wont be popular but wesley fofana and rougerie got little change out of Wallace and cave /whitten despite the presence of malzieu and sivivatu in the wings.

I genuinely believe paddy Wallace has to play 12 now

Don't see how anyone could argue with that if I'm honest. But will it happen? I doubt it.

The Ireland backrow will be well occupied with Dusatoir and co, so won't be able to give the centres the same dig out that Ferris and co could give to the Ulster midfield. If you want to know why it won't happen - from the stats (I know this won't go down well, but what the heck), PW missed a fair few tackles.

Scrum.com

I can't believe you are talking about ferris digging out our centres after the babysitting job both he and sob had to do for D'arcy and McFadden today sin. That is truly baffling.

Standulstermen wrote:But surely kidney should be able to come up with a system wherein our weaker members are not exposed or are rather better used in combination with players like POC, ferris, Heaslip, best, sexton, kearney who have all been excellent against these guys and there compatriots. Wont be popular but wesley fofana and rougerie got little change out of Wallace and cave /whitten despite the presence of malzieu and sivivatu in the wings.

I genuinely believe paddy Wallace has to play 12 now

I refer you to point a) - I thought the backrow were slow at getting to the breakdown and less committed than normal and no aggression or ferocity in the tackle. Conor Murray was the only one who seemed to be up for it at times.

Standulstermen wrote:Scrum.com

I can't believe you are talking about ferris digging out our centres after the babysitting job both he and sob had to do for D'arcy and McFadden today sin. That is truly baffling.

The point was made that Paddy Wallace would be better than D'Arcy. I don't agree. He would have to be baby sat just like McFadden & D'Arcy by the backrow.

The worst thing that could come with Wallace and Earls starting, is if their defence is as poor as D'Arcy/McFadden. However, both will actually threaten the opposition, so no matter what there is a bonus to having the two play instead of D'Arcy and McFadden. However I feel they will be much better defensively anyway.

SOB has been heavily criticised despite being the top tackler today. Although he wasn't able to do what he has been doing for Leinster, he still saved our asses a lot today. As did Ferris. The fact we need them to cover the centres and have to play such a different game is worrying. D'Arcy MUST go.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:But surely kidney should be able to come up with a system wherein our weaker members are not exposed or are rather better used in combination with players like POC, ferris, Heaslip, best, sexton, kearney who have all been excellent against these guys and there compatriots. Wont be popular but wesley fofana and rougerie got little change out of Wallace and cave /whitten despite the presence of malzieu and sivivatu in the wings.

I genuinely believe paddy Wallace has to play 12 now

I refer you to point a) - I thought the backrow were slow at getting to the breakdown and less committed than normal and no aggression or ferocity in the tackle. Conor Murray was the only one who seemed to be up for it at times.

Conor murray had a shocker for me. His box kicking is embarrassing and his speed of service is far too slow. He is young so I think heeds to be persisted with but he was poor. I would say paddy is a lot (not even marginally) stronger in the tackle than D'arcy these days and a lot more savvy than McFadden who again shot up and missed his target in one occasion and got hammered twice by north. Irrespective of whether or not he takes hisshot I think he deserves the shot. If you can suggest what D'arcy and McFadden did to warrant retention I would be interested.

It will have to wait till the morning though as I am knackered,

Murray's box kicking is still better than TOL or Reddans. Although I don't understand why the box kick is used so much in the first place.

When Reddan plays well he can set a much quicker tempo than the others like against England last year.

I noticed more than one pundit in the last week comment on the fact that Reddan and Sexton should start if we want to play a more attacking game, and Murray and ROG should start if we want to play conservatively. But Kidney hardly ever plays the provincial half back partnerships together.