LIONS 2013 SQUAD

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pikcing it today here is what i am thinking - 35 players

Healy/Jenkins/Cole/Jones/?
Hibberd/Rees/Hartley/Best
Gray/AW Jones/Charteris/Palmer or Lawes?
Croft/Ferris?/Heaslip/Warburton/Lydiate/Faletau/Haskellhoff/SOB/Wood

Philipps/Youngs/lloyd or Care/ Irish 9?

Sexton/Priestland/Flood!?
Roberts and tuilagi (ouch) Davies
North, Ashton, Scottish winger?
Foden Halfpenny Kearney

Too many forwards and not enough backs...

My 22

Healy
Best
Jones
Charteris
AWJ
SOB
Warburton
Haskell

Philipps
Priestland
Roberts
Tuilagi
North
Ashton
Foden

Hartley/Hibberd
Gethin/Cole
Gray
Heaslip/Lydiate
Youngs/Care
Sexton
Davies
Halfpenny

wales606 wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Not one person has mentioned Lloyd Williams at 9.

He will be Wales's 9 by then and is better than any of the 9's mentioned on here. His fitness, speed and accuracy of pass, and his ability to break are all better than any of the above. Watch this space.

*cough* look just above your post....

Hahahah

Sorry mate, I started typing, then got distracted by a phone call, then made a cup of tea and then came back to it so probably crossed in the post, so to speak.

I concur with your choice.

If we are picking on World Cup form then I would add from Scotland

Murray
Ford
Ross Rennie
R Gray
Max Evans

and possibly S Lamont

Not sure how Ross Rennie can be picked on "World Cup form", not having faced a top nation in the World Cup (rightly or wrongly).

This would be my starting 15 at the moment.

01. Healy
02. Ford
03. A Jones
04. O'Connell
05. Gray
06. Ferris
07. Warburton
08. O'Brien
09. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

O'Connell, Adam Jones and Warburton would be shoe-ins for me at the moment.

offload wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Gatts wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Sorry not to nit pick too much, but that looks like an anglo welsh team not a Lions squad

No Tommy Bowe, no Sean Lamont (who put Tualagii and Tindall in his pocket a few weeks ago) to name but two

bring it fhf, i am so open to additions but don't know wenough about scottish game...bowe is a definite and prob earls well spotted

Gatts - two Scottish wingers called Lee Jones and Tim Visser will also be in contention, I believe.

A Dutchman who is qualified to play for England who now wants to play for Scotland and becomes eligible next summer - now there's a recipe for a fine British and Irish Lion

Offload - he could be from Yemen with parents from Narnia provided he values the shirt and helps stuff the Southern Hemisphere. I'll look out for your posts when the 'Tualagi for the Lions?' debate starts...

My squad atm would be something like this;
Props: Healy, Jones, Jenkins, Murray, Cole
Hookers: Best, Rees, Sherry(if he keeps improving)/ Rees
Locks: POC, Charteris, Gray, Lawes, Ryan
Backrow: SOB, F1, Heslip, Warburton, Faletau, Barclay?, Wood,
SH: Murray, Phillips, ??
Fh: Preistland, Sexton, Flood/Keatly
Centers: Roberts, Davis, Spence?? BOD maybe?
Wingers: North, Bowe, Ashton, Earls, Visser
FB: Jones/Kearney/both, 1/2p, Foden

Thats 38 minimum

Bod stands out really but the centers aren't great and he has said he would like to retire after the Lions, anyone think that could happen?

Starting:
Healy
Best
Murray, Jones on a sunday
POC
Charteris
F1
Warburton
SOB
Murray
Preistland
North
Roberts
Davis/Bowe
Bowe/Ashton
Kearney/Jones/1/2p

From my squad (somewhere above), I'd start with the following XV:

1.Jenkins 2.Rees 3.Jones 4.Charteris 5.POC 6.SOB 7.Warburton 8.Falatau 9.Phillips 10.Sexton 11.Ashton 12.Roberts 13.Tuilagi 14.Bowe 15.Foden

16.Murray 17.Best [18.Healy] 19.Gray 20.Lydiate 21.Youngs 22.Priestland 23.Halfpenny

.....and the dirt track XV:

1.Healy 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Davies 5.Lawes 6.Lydiate 7.Barclay 8.Heaslip 9.Youngs 10.Flood 11.Halfpenny 12.S Lamont 13.J Davies 14.North 15.Armitage

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Props: A Jones, D Cole, E Murray, C Healy and G Jenkins
Hookers: M Rees, R Best and D Hartley
Second row: C Lawes, POC, L Charteris, R Gray and B Davies
Back row: D Ferris, SOB, D Lydiate, S Warburton, J Barclay, J Heaslip and T Falatau

Forwards: 20

Scrum halves: C Murray, B Youngs and Laidlaw
Fly halves: R Priestland, T Flood and J Sexton
Centres: J Roberts, J Davies, S Lamont, M Evans and M Tuilagi
Wings: T Bowe, G North, C Ashton
Full backs: B Foden, F Jones and L Halfpenny

Backs: 17

Don't understand why people are picking Mike Philips, don't rate him as a scrumhalf really, as an athlete I do but not as a guy who gets the ball out of the rucks quickly and on a silver platter for his 10.

Think Max Evans in a good attacking team could be nothing short of lethal. Really like his elusive running. Ansbro may get in there too as may BOD.

Jones is in there cos I can see big things on the horizon for this guy as long as he can avoid injuries for a while!

Not sure on Bradley Davies but put him in anyways.

First 15-Dirst trackers

Healy-Cole
Best-Hartley
Jones-Murray
Gray-Charteris
POC-Davies
Ferris-Lydiate
Waurburton-Barclay
SOB-Falateau
Youngs-Laidlaw
Sexton-Flood
Halfpenny-Evans
Roberts-Davies
Bowe-Tuilagi
North-Lamont
Jones-Foden

First team subs
Jenkins-Rees-Lawes-Heaslip-Murray-Priestland-Tuilagi

Pretty odd to pick Bowe as a first choice 13. Is that Felix Jones at 15? Do you really think he is the best 15 in Britain and Ireland?

I think in this day and age of Enlightenment, the Lions should be the Euro-Lions.

My thoughts on it:

1. It would save so much stress on any one Home-Nation country - spread the load. Too many players take a year to get over it. Some never do.

2. Make it shorter. It goes on far too long. Too many meaningless games.

3. We might actually win a series for a change, with French and Italians in the fold.

5. This is bu88er all to do with Tradition. Its a money-spinning exercise.

6. Where's 4?

funnyExiledScot wrote:Pretty odd to pick Bowe as a first choice 13. Is that Felix Jones at 15? Do you really think he is the best 15 in the British Isles?

Now you've done it. Where's the Munster brigade?

Ooops!! I'll redraft quickly before they find out where I live.....

1. G Jenkins
2. Best
3. Adam Jones
4. Charteris
5. POC
6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
10. Priestland
11. Ashton
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. North
15. Foden

16. Cole
17. Rees
18. Gray
19. Faletau
20. Youngs
21. Sexton
22. Bowe

pete

cole isn't a loosehead. he's a tighthead. can't play him and murray together.

I know that I am biased, but I'm always amazed that on various Lions team threads, Ross Ford rarely seems to show up on anyone's radar for one of the 2 berths. I'm not entirely surely what the issue is, but i suspect there's a view that his darts are poor, he's a bit soft, he doesn't do much around the pitch, etc., or some combination of all those. So I thought I'd take a look at his stats from the RWC and compare them to those of the other contenders' hookers:

Oppo		T/A	Pts	K/P/R	Mts	ClnBrk	DefsBtn	OffLd	Tover	Tack	LOw/l	Pen	Y/R
Rom	Ford	0/0	0	0/0/7	8	0	0	0	0	2/0	0/1	0	0/0
Geo	Ford	0/0	0	0/0/5	8	0	0	0	2	6/0	0/1	0	0/0
Arg	Ford	0/0	0	0/0/4	0	0	0	0	0	15/0	0/2	1	0/0
Eng	Ford	0/0	0	0/1/8	6	0	0	0	1	5/0	0/1	2	0/0
	Avg	0/0	0	0/0/6	6	0	0	0	1	7/0	0/1	1	0/0
Sco	Thompson	0/0	0	0/2/3	6	0	0	1	0	2/0	0/2	0	0/0
Sco	Hartley	0/0	0	0/0/1	0	0	0	0	0	1/0	0/0	0	0/0
Rom	Thompson	0/1	0	0/4/2	0	0	0	1	0	1/0	0/0	1	0/0
Geo	Hartley	0/0	0	1/2/3	0	0	0	2	0	11/0	0/0	1	1/0
Geo	Thompson	0/0	0	0/0/2	6	0	0	0	0	4/0	0/0	0	0/0
Arg	Thompson	0/0	0	0/2/3	0	0	1	0	1	4/2	0/0	2	0/0
Arg	Hartley	0/0	0	0/1/2	1	0	0	0	0	1/0	0/0	0	0/0
Fra	Thompson	0/0	0	0/0/4	4	0	0	2	0	3/0	0/1	0	0/0
Fra	Hartley	0/0	0	0/1/4	1	0	0	0	1	6/0	0/2	1	0/0
	Avg Hartley	0/0	0	0/1/2	1	0	0	1	0	5/0	0/1	1	0/0
SA	Bennett	0/0	0	0/4/12	11	0	0	0	0	7/1	0/2	0	0/0
Samoa	Bennett	0/0	0	0/1/8	18	0	0	0	0	9/1	0/1	2	0/0
Nam	Burns	0/0	0	0/2/5	7	0	0	0	3	1/0	0/0	2	0/0
Nam	Owens	0/0	0	0/0/2	29	0	1	0	0	0/0	0/0	0	0/0
Fij	Bennett	0/0	0	0/0/2	4	0	0	0	0	3/0	0/1	2	0/0
Fij	Burns	1/0	5	0/2/5	12	0	0	0	0	7/2	0/0	0	0/0
Ire	Bennett	0/0	0	1/5/4	3	0	0	0	1	8/1	0/2	0	0/0
Fra	Bennett	0/0	0	0/2/9	4	0	0	0	0	5/0	0/6	0	0/0
Aus	Bennett	0/0	0	0/2/5	2	0	0	1	1	4/0	0/0	0	0/0
Aus	Burns	0/0	0	0/0/1	0	0	0	0	0	0/0	0/0	0	0/0
	Avg Bennett	0/0	0	0/2/7	7	0	0	0	0	6/1	0/2	1	0/0
USA	Best	1/0	5	0/1/9	24	0	1	0	1	6/0	0/1	1	0/0
USA	Flannery	0/0	0	0/1/1	4	0	0	0	1	1/0	0/0	0	0/0
Aus	Best	0/0	0	0/2/4	12	0	0	1	0	2/0	0/0	0	0/0
Rus	Cronin	0/0	0	0/3/7	10	0	0	0	0	3/0	0/1	0	0/0
Ita	Best	0/0	0	0/0/4	5	0	0	1	1	0/0	0/0	0	0/0
Ita	Cronin	0/0	0	0/0/2	2	0	0	0	0	3/0	0/0	1	0/0
Wal	Best	0/0	0	0/1/8	7	0	0	1	0	12/0	0/1	0	0/0
	Avg Best	0/0	1	0/1/6	12	0	0	1	1	5/0	0/1	0	0/0

These are taken from ESPN. I have assumed that lineouts lost are all attributable to the player who started the game. Now I'll happily admit that stats rarely tell the full story, but these seem to indicate that there's not much in it between the front line hookers from the B&I nations. I believe that Ford's throwing is much improved, his scrummaging is good, his workrate as a former backrower is excellent, he's one of Scotland's principal carriers and he puts in his fair share of tackles. So what is it about him that other posters aren't keen on?

I think Ford is an excellent player and would pick him. It's not like the Lions' sides are rolling in world class hookers either.

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Ross Ford
03. Dan Cole
04. Richie Gray
05. Courtney Lawes
06. Sean O’Brien
07. Sam Warburton
08. Jamie Heaslip

09. Ben Youngs (If is fit and on form)
10. Jonny Sexton/ Rhys Priestland/ Toby Flood (Whoever is on form)

11. Tommy Bowe
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. George North
15. Ben Foden


Always some bolters in there, for England I’d suggest one of the following:

Alex Goode
Christian Wade
Joe Marler

Ford is also about twice the size of any other UK/Ireland hooker.

George Carlin wrote:Ford is also about twice the size of any other UK/Ireland hooker.

He's shocked by that statement:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=steve+thompson&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=616&tbm=isch&tbnid=WLYrGACdXQ8vPM:&imgrefurl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/may/21/steve-thompson-england-rugby-union&docid=UYWjmHegS9rPZM&imgurl=http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2009/5/20/1242841003653/thompson-001.jpg&w=460&h=276&ei=y16oTrbDC87t8QOUm8X2Cg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=430&sig=103326309900684516919&sqi=2&page=5&tbnh=121&tbnw=158&start=83&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:83&tx=142&ty=75

I think Wood will play an increasingly important role with England ove rthe next few seasons...and i think he will make the lions team. I think he offers more than Croft...

I'd agree with that Geordie, he seems to offer everything that Croft does (speed and follow up play) but adds grunt, the ability to make hard yards and be more effective at the breakdown.

1. Murray (sco)
2. Ford (Sco)
3. Jones (wal)
4. Grey (scot)
5. POC (ire)
6.Ferris (ire)
7. Warburton (wal)
8. Heaslip (ire)
9. Phillips (wal)
10. Priestland (wal)
11. Ashton (eng)
12. Roberts (wal)
13. Tuilagi (eng)
14. North (wal)
15. Foden (eng)

16. Hartley (eng)
17. Healy (ire)
18. Lawes (eng)
19. SOB (ire)
20. Youngs (eng)
21. Hook (wal)
22. Kearney (ire) 6 Irish 6 Eng 7 Wales 3 Scots

Nailed it I think!!

(And if anyone else even mentions Haskell and the lions in the same sentance go and sit on the naughty step for a week!)

"And if anyone else even mentions Haskell "

Whilst i wouldnt pick him at the moment...im not sure why people are so anti him...he has improved markedly at international level and has played to a good standard in a poor performing England team. A couple of years till 2013...and he will be better again....so who knows....

logie28

Whatever you think of Haskell he was good in the world cup.

Also, Murray is not a loosehead.

Sorry, I've watched Haskell closely. He is a decent club player, nothing more, shouldnt be in the England squad, so it upsets me to hear him mentioned in lions squads.

I take the point about Murray however, could he swap with Jones?

My personal Lions XV, BASED ON WORLD CUP FORM ALONE, with who I think *might* replace them in 2009 (guesswork)

1 Jenkins (Healy)
2 Ford
3 A. Jones
4 Charteris (Gray, AWJ)
5 O'Connell (Lawes)
6 Ferris (O'Brien, Lydiate)
7 Warburton
8 Faletau
9 Phillips (L. Williams , Youngs)
10 Priestland (Sexton)
11
12 Roberts
13 Tuilagi
14 North (Bowe, Ashton)
15 Halfpenny (Foden)

Does look a bit biased perhaps, but that's how I honestly see it at the moment. It's likely one of the 14s would move over to plug the hole(!?) at 11.

Its a nice little bonus that they play in red aswell eh?

logie28 wrote:Sorry, I've watched Haskell closely. He is a decent club player, nothing more, shouldnt be in the England squad, so it upsets me to hear him mentioned in lions squads.

I take the point about Murray however, could he swap with Jones?

Haskell was better than Croft, Moody or Easter this world cup, so to say he shouldn't be in the squad you have to find four players from outside the squad who should have been ahead of him.

Murray and Jones are both specialist tightheads. Jenkins or Healey would be the best choice at 1 right now.

It's been fairly obvious since the advent of professionalism that scratch teams have next to no chance of competing with regular test sides. That is unless they get about a dozen games before a test to formulate a team.

The whole Lions concept might be great at extracting pound notes from teary eyed NH fans but it is really bad for rugby in the Northern Hemisphere, with most NH Test sides being far more capable of beating their SH opponents than a scratch amalgam.

So either scrap it or start the tour immediately after the 6N to give the team a fair number of games before the Tests.

The Lions makes money so the blazers love it, the old nostalgic fans love it, the hosting nations love it, the players themselves love it. Whats the problem?

The Great Aukster wrote: Test sides being far more capable of beating their SH opponents than a scratch amalgam.

None of us exactly have a very good record of beating SANZAR teams away though do we? The lions put up a much better show away against the boks in 09 than any of our countries individually could have managed.

Another thing to consider is that teams like USA, Canada etc generally get to play tests against the home nations during those summers (against the depleted teams) which they otherwise might not get to do.

Institutions rarely survive because someone loves them - OTOH they will if someone makes a profit from their existence.

The Lions serve no rugby purpose other than to make money for the Union coffers and the host nations. Maybe this is a good enough reason but it shouldn't be dressed up as a real Test match, given that one team has maybe four weeks to prepare against one that has had four years.

The Great Aukster wrote:Institutions rarely survive because someone loves them - OTOH they will if someone makes a profit from their existence.

The Lions serve no rugby purpose other than to make money for the Union coffers and the host nations. Maybe this is a good enough reason but it shouldn't be dressed up as a real Test match, given that one team has maybe four weeks to prepare against one that has had four years.

Aukster - you've just won the fecking World Cup after 24 years of falling on your @rse.

Perhaps you could be a bit more gracious about the Lions? Has it occurred to you that a Lions tour is about slightly more than just whether the team wins or not? Brings British and Irish fans together and puts all of their best in one team, which is something that fans never get to see - the closest we get it usually speculating about possible cross-international combinations on boards like these.

Most NH fans are clear eyed enough to realise that on any professional era tour, they will be up against it at test level against an experienced team, but that's the excitement. I defy you to find a better test match in recent years than the Lions second against the Bokke.

For what it's worth, it also bring the best out of many national team players. Blinking my one eye, Gavin Hastings has pointed out in the past that the last couple of Scottish 5 Nations grand slams came off the back of successful Lions tours.

Gatts wrote:pikcing it today here is what i am thinking - 35 players

Healy/Jenkins/Cole/Jones/?
Hibberd/Rees/Hartley/Best
Gray/AW Jones/Charteris/Palmer or Lawes?
Croft/Ferris?/Heaslip/Warburton/Lydiate/Faletau/Haskellhoff/SOB/Wood

Philipps/Youngs/lloyd or Care/ Irish 9?

Sexton/Priestland/Flood!?
Roberts and tuilagi (ouch) Davies
North, Ashton, Scottish winger?
Foden Halfpenny Kearney

Too many forwards and not enough backs...

My 22

Healy
Best
Jones
Charteris
AWJ
SOB
Warburton
Haskell

Philipps
Priestland
Roberts
Tuilagi
North
Ashton
Foden

Hartley/Hibberd
Gethin/Cole
Gray
Heaslip/Lydiate
Youngs/Care
Sexton
Davies
Halfpenny

No that's all wrong, where's Henson??

I'm not convinced we should be picking too many players from a side ranked 8th in the world.

It doesn't really send out the right message.

SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm not convinced we should be picking too many players from a side ranked 8th in the world.

It doesn't really send out the right message.

What is your suggestion then? Is it something along the lines pick players from a team that doesn't make the last 4 of the World Cup? England have choked three times already this year, we don't need it spreading onto the other home nations.

SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm not convinced we should be picking too many players who are bright orange in colour.

It doesn't really send out the right message.

Couldn't agree more.

George Carlin wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm not convinced we should be picking too many players who are bright orange in colour.

It doesn't really send out the right message.

Couldn't agree more.

Quite right. Now why didn't I think of that?

Gibson wrote:I think in this day and age of Enlightenment, the Lions should be the Euro-Lions.

My thoughts on it:

1. It would save so much stress on any one Home-Nation country - spread the load. Too many players take a year to get over it. Some never do.

2. Make it shorter. It goes on far too long. Too many meaningless games.

3. We might actually win a series for a change, with French and Italians in the fold.

5. This is bu88er all to do with Tradition. Its a money-spinning exercise.

6. Where's 4?

Totally agree, The Lions is anachronistic claptrap.

George Carlin wrote:Aukster - you've just won the fecking World Cup after 24 years of falling on your @rse.

Whaa hey! Really? Jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game, as I could have sworn that it was NZ holding the Webb Ellis gold. Anyway fantastic to hear that Ireland won it instead so I'm off to Dublin for a gander - when's the open top bus due?

Euro Lions? Might be a good idea. You wouldn't lose the history and tradition but it would be a new era for the Lions. There's a few other things I wouldn't mind seeing. I don't know why the Lions have such a rigid, repetetive 12 year structure.

1. Play a test series against Argentina.
2. Play a combined tri-nations/quad-nations team. Their preparation would be the same.
3. Play a combined Pacific Island team.
4. The Lions could even tour France, Italy or the home nations if they wanted. Then a test team from the sh could come and play us in Twickenham or the Millenium stadium.

The trinations unions just treat the Lions series as a cash cow to milk. For some reason they normally treat the Lions quite brutally on the field too. O'Gara gettin a savage beating in Australia. Dallalaglio getting takin out in New Zealand and then O'Driscoll nearly getting his neck broken, off the ball. In South Africa Fitzgerald was eye gouged. I don't know why the Lions have to repeatedly go to these 3 countries and take such bad treatment just to line the pockets of the sanzar unions.

The Great Aukster wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Aukster - you've just won the fecking World Cup after 24 years of falling on your @rse.

Whaa hey! Really? Jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game, as I could have sworn that it was NZ holding the Webb Ellis gold. Anyway fantastic to hear that Ireland won it instead so I'm off to Dublin for a gander - when's the open top bus due?

Aukster, it'll be along any minute - its behind the no.26

Not sure why the Lions needs to change at all. Seems to be pretty popular globally, makes a stack of cash, and that fact that there are threads every week discussing it to me suggests that keeping it is a no brainer.

I never really understand the arguments about the success of the Lions either. Yes, they haven't won a series since 1997, but France, Ireland, Wales and Scotland have never won a World Cup, nor a series down under. Should we cease competing in World Cups just because we don't have much of a chance of winning? Is that what sport is about, shirking a challenge?

I can't think of a single good reason to object to the Lions, or deny it Test match status.

"
I can't think of a single good reason to object to the Lions, or deny it Test match status"

i can think of quite a few.

but on to the second part- test match status.

Do the opposition receive ranking points if it has test mathc status, and if they dont what is the point or difference in it being a test match or not?

The ranking system is a points exchange. The Lions have no points to exchange, so there's no ranking points involved.

The Great Aukster wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Aukster - you've just won the fecking World Cup after 24 years of falling on your @rse.

Whaa hey! Really? Jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game, as I could have sworn that it was NZ holding the Webb Ellis gold. Anyway fantastic to hear that Ireland won it instead so I'm off to Dublin for a gander - when's the open top bus due?

so whats the point in the lions having test match status- is this only for individual and teams test match records?

It's to recognise that the standard of the match is equivalent to that of a normal competitive international contest (unlike the Baa Baas games which are not).

Clearly, having seen the last four Lions tours, there's little to debate there.

would that debate be any different if it is 'recognised' or not

I would imagine that the players, who take pride in the number of Test caps they have, would want to know why you would deprive such fixtures of Test match recognition, when there seems to be no particular reason to do so, certainly no rugby reason.

I really don't understand why some people feel so strongly against the Lions. The only negative I can think of is the number of "Pick you Lions" threads on here, but given I've just contributed heavily to one, I'll pipe down.