Wales looking backwards looking forwards.

In 2003 Wales left the world cup with reputations enhanced and a young side who had pushed the All blacks and England in their matches. The team essentially that Steve Hansen built during a ten match losing run as he shrugged at our wails and chanted a mantra of performance not results. God I hated him. Nevertheless his team were professional as never before, regarded as the fittest welsh team ever and things were very positive during 2004 going into 2005 despite Hansen leaving.

2003-Wales VS England RWC: G Thomas; M Jones, M Taylor, I Harris, S Williams; S Jones, G Cooper; I Thomas, R McBryde, A Jones; B Cockbain, R Sidoli; D Jones, C Charvis (capt), J Thomas.
Replacements: M Davies, G Jenkins, G Llewellyn, M Williams, D Peel, C Sweeney, K Morgan

Mike Ruddocks Wales side were essentially still the team Hansen had built. He played Adam Jones for the full match and tightened up our lineout which Hansen had neglected but Wales continued to play a high tempo offloading game “discovered” in the group game against the all blacks in 2003. Clive Griffiths brought his rugby league nous to the defence and Wales duly delivered their first grandslam since the seventies. The core of the team was however the one created by Hansen, Alfie, Shane, Wellies, Nuggett, Melon, Mark Jones, Adam Jones, Peel, Jonathan Thomas, Gareth Cooper, Charvis. Shanklin and Henson were a new centre partnership but both had been in Hansens setup. Ryan jones emergence that year as an international was a great addition on the blindside. It was still fundamentally the same group of players that had played in the 2003 World Cup.

2005-Wales vs England 6n: G Thomas (capt); H Luscombe, T Shanklin, G Henson, S Williams; S Jones, D Peel; G Jenkins, M Davies, A Jones; B Cockbain, R Sidoli; D Jones, M Williams, M Owen.
Replacements: R McBryde, J Yapp, J Thomas, R Jones, G Cooper, C Sweeney, K Morgan.

That group of players who in 2005 were the best in Europe collapsed as Ruddock lost the dressing room and Gareth Jenkins when he finally got his hands on the coaches job found he couldn’t control the players egos or behaviour. His players oft feted in the welsh press failed to deliver and were knocked out of the RWC by Fiji, Just looking at the team in 2007 shows that they are still the same fundamental team as 03 and 05. The emergence of Hook but fundamentally the same team that imploded against Fiji had won a Grand Slam, beaten SH teams but fell apart with internal issues from 2005 onwards they failed to build on success.

2007-Wales vs Fiji RWC: G. Thomas, M. Jones, Shanklin, Hook, S. Williams, S. Jones, Peel, Jenkins, Rees, Horsman, A. Jones, Evans, Charvis, M. Williams, Popham.
Replacements: Phillips for Peel (57), R. Thomas for Rees (47), D. Jones for Horsman (66), Gough for Evans (66), Owen for Popham (66). Not Used: Robinson, D. James.

Gatlands arrival in 2008 after the disaster of 2007 along with Edwards gave the same team one last hurrah. The inital team whilst mainly ospreys contained the players on the bench and in the squad minus a couple of names like Alfie, Charvis were the same group of players who had first been brought together by Hansen even Bennett got his first taste of Wales action with Hansen. Phillips had emerged as a challenger to Peel and Cooper but both were still in contention in the team. That team when provided with discipline by their coaches off the field and structure on the field again delivered a grand slam. However some were by then an aging side Parker, Mark jones, Gough, Shane Cooper, Nuggett, Wellies, were all getting close to retirement age as players. With Byrne, Henson, Hook, Phillips, Adam J, JT and Ryan Gatland should have been happy with the core of a team he could take forward.

2008-Wales vs England 6n: Byrne; M. Jones, Parker, Henson, S. Williams; Hook, Phillips; A. Jones, Bennett, D. Jones, A W Jones, Gough, J. Thomas, M. Williams, R. Jones (capt).
Replacements: Popham for J. Thomas (13),Shanklin for Parker (46), Jenkins for A. Jones (46), Rees for Bennett (58), Evans for A. Jones (78), .
Not Used: Cooper, S. Jones.

By 2010 Gatland had been forced to completly rebuild that core of players, Henson went walkabout, Byrne was way off form and has been ever since. JT and Ryan were both shadows of the players they were but were being picked out of necessity, Hook still hadn’t nailed down a position. Wales were in a front row crisis without Adam Jones or Gethin and our underpowered pack were blown away. However gatlands team was being built in defeat just like hansens had in 2003. Players like Paul James, Jamie Roberts and Halfpenny, were becoming experienced but there were still a lot of the old guard hanging around. Wales were in the middle of a rebuilding process and whilst many selections frustrated, Gatland was prepared to blood new talent.

2010-Wales vs England 6n: Byrne; T James, Hook, Roberts, S Williams; S Jones, Cooper; P James, G Williams, Rhys Jones, Alun-Wyn Jones, Charteris, Powell, M Williams, R Jones (captain).
Replacements: Bennett (for G Williams, 54), Davies (for Charteris, 54), Halfpenny (for James, 65), J Thomas (for Powell, 68), R Rees (for Cooper, 68).
Not used: Gill, Bishop.

By the 2011 6 Nations the team had completely transformed from the grand slam side of 2008. The 22 against England was hampered by injury as always in the front row but Gatlands team was pretty much built, the backrow had been rebuilt and only injury to Faletau stopped him appearing. The centres were becoming established as a partnership and the loss of form of Byrne solved it seemed the perennial Hook problem. Even so the team were not anywhere near the form they showed in the RWC they did have all the constituent parts in place by the end of the 6nations.

2011-Wales vs England 6n: Hook; Stoddart, J. Davies, Roberts, Williams; S. Jones, Phillips; James, Rees, Mitchell, A. Jones, B. Davies, Lydiate, Warburton, Powell.
Replacements: Byrne for S. Jones (67), Peel for Phillips (69), Hibbard for Rees (70), R Jones for Powell (33) J Thomas for Lydiate (71), Yapp for Mitchell (71)
Not Used: Priestland

Wales against Ireland in the RWC was the last outing for our first choice players and the side has developed more in the last 2 years of Gatlands regime than in the previous six years. Keeping our coach has been a good business deal as Ruddock never had the dressing room in the way Hansen had and any successor to Gatland in the next few years will struggle to recreate the bond he has built with the players he blooded. Changing the coach 5 times between 2004 -2008 was not good for the teams discipline or on field structure. Is it any wonder what the public knew were talented players underachieved after 2005. What was also clear after 2003-05 was the Welsh players egos went out of control and dressing room power has been cited by many observers as being the downfall of that squad. In part I blame the welsh press for this and the unrealistic demands it places on the players in the goldfish bowl of welsh rugby. In part though the welsh public are also to blame for feting the players and turning them into world beaters before they have achieved it. Losing Hansen in 2004 was a disaster for Wales even if it took 2 years to unravel and we won a six nations along the way. Keeping Gatland this time is a great piece of work. For the first time Wales head into a four year cycle building to the world cup with a team and coach in place to take them there. It takes two world cups to produce the winning team ask Sir Clive. Gatland still has to find a tight head to challenge Adam jones but the rest of his team is there for the forseeable future.

2011 Wales vs Ireland RWC: Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues); George North (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues), Shane Williams (Ospreys); Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne); Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Huw Bennett (Ospreys), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Luke Charteris (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Dragons) Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), Toby Faletau (Dragons).
Replacements: Bradley Davies (Cardiff Blues, for Charteris, 40), James Hook (Perpignan, for Priestland, 77).Not used: Lloyd Burns (Dragons), Paul James (Ospreys), Ryan Jones (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets).

Tycroesosprey- I don't know how to say this, and no ill intent meant, but Wales aren't ever going to win a World cup for the forseeable future, so stop getting your hopes up and look forward to punching above your weight, as in this World cup. Because, any other view is the path to madness and despair!!

English Warrior this is an artice about how the welsh team developed in the last 8 years. There is no mention of Wales winning a world cup? Honestly the bitterness of some people, why not post somthing on the rugby?

wales dont seem to be able to cement there form. they get good for moments- welsh fans get exited, then welsh fans are let down.

the biggest test you have is if you can keep it going.

If you read the article it explains why the team imploded after 2003-5 and how the WRU have avoided taht scenario this time around.

great article, tycroes. really well researched and written. really enjoyed reading that. a really nice potted history and lots of possitives for the future.

keeping gatland looked like such a gamble a year ago but it is such a stabalising force it cant be bad. he has brought along a few good youngsters (prydi and k phillips have had a crack and we might see more of them. and he even managed to play bennett into form just in time, eh?)

the future looks bright, (and ORANGE )

heres to a great first half of the season, and fingers crossed we make it to the 6n with that core team in form and injury free, and maybe a new face or two to keep it interesting and building to rwc15

how have they avoided it this time around- you have only had form for a very short space of time- the proof is in the pudding. your argument may be right- but it may not be- we shall see

whats all this???? tycroes put together a really good article and you two are running out the same old same old.

shame.

its an ok article- but lets wait and see if wales can actually cement there form- his points are based on hope rather than fact

deleted

What point is based on hope rather than fact? cmon make a valid rugby argument for a change. Where in my article does it say wales are going to win anything, all it talks about is the coaching structure and team selection over the last 8 years. All statements made are factual. Again I would suggest you actually read the article you might learn somthing.

dogtooth wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:its an ok article- but lets wait and see if wales can actually cement there form- his points are based on hope rather than fact

i think you are wrong on all point here.

wales have failed to kick on in years gone by and and the article makes some good calls as to why this was the case. the fact we have gatland for another 4 years does give me confidence. simply saying wales are rubbish, have no hope of winning a world cup etc, is not much of a contribution to this thread

erm what are you on about pal lol.

do you allways read things that arnt posted lol

TycroesOsprey wrote:What point is based on hope rather than fact? cmon make a valid rugby argument for a change. Where in my article does it say wales are going to win anything, all it talks about is the coaching structure and team selection over the last 8 years. All statements made are factual. Again I would suggest you actually read the article you might learn somthing.

i think you are both assuming that i am a different poster on this thread

deleted

dogtooth wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:
erm what are you on about pal lol.

do you allways read things that arnt posted lol

you have just made the most pointless contibution to any thread with the above post.

can you read back and note where i said you were rubbish- then try and post something that makes sense

edit: instead you delete all your posts lol- i think it answers the question

True analysis - Wales won 4 games ,where only one team could be called good, namely Ireland, and lost to 3 all good teams, so what does that tell you Wales are not yet the finished item, only saying that to lower expectation, which can only lead to heartache for Welsh fans. So, please, don't shoot the messenger.

I agree warrior Wales are nowhere near the finished article thats what the post is about. It looks at why a promising team came home after teh world cup in 03 and failed to deliver on their promise and looks at the different approcah this time. Its not about wales winning anything its about the develppment of the team over the last 8 years and the next 4. It looks at why England in 03 NZ this year succeeded with coaching continuity.Eeven Jake white with the boks whilst he only got 4 years with his first team was the coach of those players at u21 level winning teh junior world cup with them.

Its not putting down any other nation nor does the article claim wales are world beaters or better than anyone else.

english warrior wrote:True analysis - Wales won 4 games ,where only one team could be called good, namely Ireland, and lost to 3 all good teams, so what does that tell you Wales are not yet the finished item, only saying that to lower expectation, which can only lead to heartache for Welsh fans. So, please, don't shoot the messenger.

As an Englishman, you are embarrassing me.
You are trying to ruin a cracking post with your anti Welsh bile.

you have reason to be hopefull tycoes, but is this really any different from 2003 or the other 6n's gs you have had in recent years, i am sure you were just as hopefully after those performances.

i personally wasnt haveing a pop at you at all- just noteing the above - that you have done well before, got hopefull, then let down. You are a reactionary nation and you have been in this position before.

Good article. One of the most impressive things about the WC Wales side was that they seemed to be playing for 80 mins (even if they did sometimes lack that clinical edge). that's not something I've ever seen (started watching in late 2005. There have been pockets of excellent play over the last few years. The young team and stable coaches may give a chance to break that but we'll have to wait and see. There are lots of unfortunately events that could put a kybosh on it.

What really struck me when I looked at the teams over the last 8 years was just how badly the same group of players performed between 06-07. 4 different team coaches during that period. It was also interesting because the side duly won a six nations as soon as a long term coaching structure was put in place again.

Just how much those players were out of control only the dressing room knows but their results over those years would suggest they were pretty bad. It was also interesting just how much the team has changed since 2009. The 2008 grand slam was the last hurrah of Hansens side.

You're forgetting that everyone else was rubbish in 2005 and 2008 Wales were basically the same and playing to the same standard

wales are the benchmark of average then?

Great article Tycroes. You are correct in that we, the public, were crying out for the likes of Warbs, Lydiate, Faletau, some even for Charteris and Priestland to become regulars ahead of the dead wood back in late 2009! Gatland took all our available players away to Poland and turned them into machines. The young guns were thrown in at the deep end and performed above our expectations. I thought Toby was a gamble looking at the warm-up games but Gataland's gamble payed off!

If anything the world cup showed that we're covered in most positions apart from 3, 10 and 7. Get some better replacements and losing those guys will not hurt us so much.

mystiroakey wrote:wales are the benchmark of average then?

i deleted my posts because the mod said stop bikkering and get on topic. you are just baiting and wumming and it is very poor form. tycroes put some effort into his article and all you can do is spoil it with this sort of wummage.

dogtooth wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:wales are the benchmark of average then?

i deleted my posts because the mod said stop bikkering and get on topic. you are just baiting and wumming and it is very poor form. tycroes put some effort into his article and all you can do is spoil it with this sort of wummage.

how about admitting that you were wrong and moving forward pal.

mystiroakey wrote:

dogtooth wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:wales are the benchmark of average then?

i deleted my posts because the mod said stop bikkering and get on topic. you are just baiting and wumming and it is very poor form. tycroes put some effort into his article and all you can do is spoil it with this sort of wummage.

how about admitting that you were wrong and moving forward pal.

ok i was wrong, and whats more your posts are an excelent addition to this thread. please make more insightful comments, i cant wait to read your valuble contributions.

<post removed>

KRD

sorry guys- lets start again

For all teh English WUM's, this does pose a similar question for how they have developed over the last 8 years. 3 different coaches none given more than a world cup to effect change and build a team. Maybe jettisoning MJ now would be the kind of reactionary behaviour more reminiscent of teh WRU. If you look at the England teams development, MJ has like Gatland blooded more players and changed the team more than Ashton or Robinson did.

I think history shows you need more than four years to build a team worthy of challenging for the world cup.

Also looking at Englands development after 2003, NZ should be asking is Hansen the right man to take NZ forward. Robinson despite being a damn good coach wasnt. Hansen may be too entwined with the RWC winning side that he fails like Ronbinson to rebuild it for 2015. It wouls be interesting to see how Henrys NZ developed over the last 8 years and how their team is going to change over the next four as I suspect theres a lot of players who wont be around in 4 years time.

I would say if we don't beat Aus in December then we may not have a good four years coming our way. They should also always be repeating world cup training to maintain the high fitness and strength levels.

England have hope as do the welsh. We have actually had a better year than previous, i think we are slowly getting better and have the odd good game surronded by loads of ugly games.

wales seen to be really good , then dip in a big way.

both have a long way to proove doubters wrong

Morgannwg wrote:I would say if we don't beat Aus in December then we may not have a good four years coming our way. They should also always be repeating world cup training to maintain the high fitness and strength levels.

its a good argument for central contracts. there is something about that system that im not happy with but it has worked for other nations.

beating the Ozzies is important espescially considering the timing but I think maintaining the performance is now more important than results. If we maintain performance levels and gain experience and composure then the results will be good. We arent going to win every game (look how SA lost despite being the better side against Oz or France agasint NZ)nobody ever does but as long as we maintain performance levels we will win much more than we lose.

I suppose when all you have is 4 super-clubs to pick from, Central Contracting is ideal. Mirroring the NZ model and not the Ireland one though.

I don't see why the WRU can't fund a programme to create facilities in Wales (but in the middle of nowhere, Brecon Beacons?) identical to that of Poland because it is clearly beneficial.

Despite England winning this years 6 Nations Mist I think their perfomances and results were better in 2010 than this year. However there was a regression in selection and tactics this year. England having found the formula and the players to attack last year drew back from that process in 2011 and reverted to tried and trusted tactics and selection. It was almost as if MJ didnt have faith in the style that brought wins over the Ozzies.

Brecon isnt really the middle of nowhere though I think being away from wales away from the press and us the fans is also good for the team.

TycroesOsprey wrote:For all teh English WUM's, this does pose a similar question for how they have developed over the last 8 years. 3 different coaches none given more than a world cup to effect change and build a team. Maybe jettisoning MJ now would be the kind of reactionary behaviour more reminiscent of teh WRU. If you look at the England teams development, MJ has like Gatland blooded more players and changed the team more than Ashton or Robinson did.

I think history shows you need more than four years to build a team worthy of challenging for the world cup.

Also looking at Englands development after 2003, NZ should be asking is Hansen the right man to take NZ forward. Robinson despite being a damn good coach wasnt. Hansen may be too entwined with the RWC winning side that he fails like Ronbinson to rebuild it for 2015. It wouls be interesting to see how Henrys NZ developed over the last 8 years and how their team is going to change over the next four as I suspect theres a lot of players who wont be around in 4 years time.

I fear you may be right (admittedly I've not been a Hansen fan for a while)

But since Deans and Gatland are out of the NZ picture, there sadly isn't a lot of choice - Lam hasn't harnessed the Blues' talent well enough, Hammett has been a disaster, Foster has underachieved with the Chiefs (and odds are he'll be the new backs coach ) while Blackadder and Joseph aren't ready yet.

Back to the original topic, Wales have a lot to be hopeful, even expectant about. There's a pretty good 1st XV and signs that the Welsh achilles heel, depth, is improving. The ability to close out games improves with experience too. The RWC for Wales was promising albeit unfilled - the challenge is to keep the level high.

In the NH England, Ireland and France can all have reasons for optimism, and pessimism. England have the resources, at the moment their organisation structure and management are failing to harness those resources effectively. Ireland's domestic structure is better organised to support the national team than England and Wales, which means that they can maximise the resources they have. The challenge is to find a couple of new stars to complement their good players as some of the golden generation move on. France have the wealthiest league, and a new coach who isn't mad to build on - key for them is building consistency.

after the aus game(2010) i was full of hope, we have regressed to ugly but perhaps more winning rugby. BUT Where is the movement, are england to afraid of losing first. But as kiwi above points out its all about getting a few players in any squad that has the x factor. Will tuligi and possibly ashton be englands. Will warburton and priestland cement it for wales, or will we find others

Thing is with Hansen is he is a stubborn stubborn man. He is also terrible with the press and that wins him no friends. He also couldnt coach a lineout somthing Wales and NZ suffered from under him. I just wonder if he will have the cahonies to change this team. Will he dare drop McCaw? will he recognise that some players wont be there in 2015 and be ruthless. He was with Henrys Wales dismantling it in a season but Im not sure he will be again.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Brecon isnt really the middle of nowhere though I think being away from wales away from the press and us the fans is also good for the team.

Behind the Beacons there's nothing in site. The town of Brecon is a small place. That was just an example and probably not that good an example. There's plenty of places in Wales that are in the middle of nowhere. I think they definitely need to get away from Wales before going into the 6 Nations seeing as the expectations from the fans and media will be very high.

Great article - ignore the tired, pathetic and repetitive (on many threads) WUMS.

It makes some good points and we have a lot of work to do. The one thing I'm worried about is that, while Gats was building this side and going on his 10 match loosing streak, he continually stuck to the same underperforming players (Byrne, Phillips, Bennett - ok them 3 came good in the end, J Thomas, Cooper, R Jones (to an extent) and Yapp, T James) and he only really brought through back ups if there were injuries - P James, Mitchell and Bevington were only given a chance because of long injuries to A Jones and Jenkins - Faletau and Lydiate were only brought through because of very bad form and injury to JT and RJ, and only given a few starts each before the WC, no time to bed in. Same as Stoddart, Priestland & JD2 (who had a few more starts than the others), No chance was given to Tovey, anyone at FB, L Williams, (until WC), Delve, Efion or A Smith.
Part of me thinks that we were lucky that all the youngsters played so well with so little preperation and if they hadn't then we wouldn't have had a plan B.
But maybe I'm looking at too many negatives, and I do like riding on the crest of the positivity about Welsh rugby

XV and T/Head are the positions I still feel Gatland has failed in, even this tournament we watched Hook flounder there before Halfpenny was finally given his chance and we still played James at T/Head even though Mitchell was in the squad.

Despite those negative points I think he has done well bringing through youngsters and just hope we can continue now and carry it on into the 6 Nations

Sorry forgot to add in my post (my memory is shocking for a 28 year old, and I'm in work constantly hiding from my boss) that I hope the stuff I mentioned above doesn't happen again if players loose form. I also worry about everybody suddenly thinking we're world beaters when we're not (but we could be close if we get a bit better and continue to improve) and that going to players heads - though i think most of the players seem to be pretty grounded and won't suffer from the affliction of the 2005/2008 team.

Anyway fingers crossed that the regions can keep churning out youngsters and the Wales team can keep turning them into stars

priest,

With a few tweaks here n there (yongsters coming in etc) Gatland will hopefully have pretty much the same range of players to choose from for the next four years.

For me his biggest challenge will now be the mental side of things the final top two inches we keep hearing about and turning these close losses into victories and whilst I am full aware that success at Rgeional level doesn't always been success and International level it can only help.

Defiantely - we just need to develop that mental toughness and also for important players to stay in form.

It will be interesting when we get our A team as well.

I'm also (although I'm a Scarlet through and through) hoping the Ospreys have a good season in Europe

Will be actually get the A Side back, I bloody hope so as we need it to hlp with that step.

From Regional POV I want all three to do well in the HC and us (Dragons) to have a great run in the Amlin