Wales looking backwards looking forwards.

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In 2003 Wales left the world cup with reputations enhanced and a young side who had pushed the All blacks and England in their matches. The team essentially that Steve Hansen built during a ten match losing run as he shrugged at our wails and chanted a mantra of performance not results. God I hated him. Nevertheless his team were professional as never before, regarded as the fittest welsh team ever and things were very positive during 2004 going into 2005 despite Hansen leaving.

2003-Wales VS England RWC: G Thomas; M Jones, M Taylor, I Harris, S Williams; S Jones, G Cooper; I Thomas, R McBryde, A Jones; B Cockbain, R Sidoli; D Jones, C Charvis (capt), J Thomas.
Replacements: M Davies, G Jenkins, G Llewellyn, M Williams, D Peel, C Sweeney, K Morgan

Mike Ruddocks Wales side were essentially still the team Hansen had built. He played Adam Jones for the full match and tightened up our lineout which Hansen had neglected but Wales continued to play a high tempo offloading game “discovered” in the group game against the all blacks in 2003. Clive Griffiths brought his rugby league nous to the defence and Wales duly delivered their first grandslam since the seventies. The core of the team was however the one created by Hansen, Alfie, Shane, Wellies, Nuggett, Melon, Mark Jones, Adam Jones, Peel, Jonathan Thomas, Gareth Cooper, Charvis. Shanklin and Henson were a new centre partnership but both had been in Hansens setup. Ryan jones emergence that year as an international was a great addition on the blindside. It was still fundamentally the same group of players that had played in the 2003 World Cup.

2005-Wales vs England 6n: G Thomas (capt); H Luscombe, T Shanklin, G Henson, S Williams; S Jones, D Peel; G Jenkins, M Davies, A Jones; B Cockbain, R Sidoli; D Jones, M Williams, M Owen.
Replacements: R McBryde, J Yapp, J Thomas, R Jones, G Cooper, C Sweeney, K Morgan.

That group of players who in 2005 were the best in Europe collapsed as Ruddock lost the dressing room and Gareth Jenkins when he finally got his hands on the coaches job found he couldn’t control the players egos or behaviour. His players oft feted in the welsh press failed to deliver and were knocked out of the RWC by Fiji, Just looking at the team in 2007 shows that they are still the same fundamental team as 03 and 05. The emergence of Hook but fundamentally the same team that imploded against Fiji had won a Grand Slam, beaten SH teams but fell apart with internal issues from 2005 onwards they failed to build on success.

2007-Wales vs Fiji RWC: G. Thomas, M. Jones, Shanklin, Hook, S. Williams, S. Jones, Peel, Jenkins, Rees, Horsman, A. Jones, Evans, Charvis, M. Williams, Popham.
Replacements: Phillips for Peel (57), R. Thomas for Rees (47), D. Jones for Horsman (66), Gough for Evans (66), Owen for Popham (66). Not Used: Robinson, D. James.

Gatlands arrival in 2008 after the disaster of 2007 along with Edwards gave the same team one last hurrah. The inital team whilst mainly ospreys contained the players on the bench and in the squad minus a couple of names like Alfie, Charvis were the same group of players who had first been brought together by Hansen even Bennett got his first taste of Wales action with Hansen. Phillips had emerged as a challenger to Peel and Cooper but both were still in contention in the team. That team when provided with discipline by their coaches off the field and structure on the field again delivered a grand slam. However some were by then an aging side Parker, Mark jones, Gough, Shane Cooper, Nuggett, Wellies, were all getting close to retirement age as players. With Byrne, Henson, Hook, Phillips, Adam J, JT and Ryan Gatland should have been happy with the core of a team he could take forward.

2008-Wales vs England 6n: Byrne; M. Jones, Parker, Henson, S. Williams; Hook, Phillips; A. Jones, Bennett, D. Jones, A W Jones, Gough, J. Thomas, M. Williams, R. Jones (capt).
Replacements: Popham for J. Thomas (13),Shanklin for Parker (46), Jenkins for A. Jones (46), Rees for Bennett (58), Evans for A. Jones (78), .
Not Used: Cooper, S. Jones.

By 2010 Gatland had been forced to completly rebuild that core of players, Henson went walkabout, Byrne was way off form and has been ever since. JT and Ryan were both shadows of the players they were but were being picked out of necessity, Hook still hadn’t nailed down a position. Wales were in a front row crisis without Adam Jones or Gethin and our underpowered pack were blown away. However gatlands team was being built in defeat just like hansens had in 2003. Players like Paul James, Jamie Roberts and Halfpenny, were becoming experienced but there were still a lot of the old guard hanging around. Wales were in the middle of a rebuilding process and whilst many selections frustrated, Gatland was prepared to blood new talent.

2010-Wales vs England 6n: Byrne; T James, Hook, Roberts, S Williams; S Jones, Cooper; P James, G Williams, Rhys Jones, Alun-Wyn Jones, Charteris, Powell, M Williams, R Jones (captain).
Replacements: Bennett (for G Williams, 54), Davies (for Charteris, 54), Halfpenny (for James, 65), J Thomas (for Powell, 68), R Rees (for Cooper, 68).
Not used: Gill, Bishop.

By the 2011 6 Nations the team had completely transformed from the grand slam side of 2008. The 22 against England was hampered by injury as always in the front row but Gatlands team was pretty much built, the backrow had been rebuilt and only injury to Faletau stopped him appearing. The centres were becoming established as a partnership and the loss of form of Byrne solved it seemed the perennial Hook problem. Even so the team were not anywhere near the form they showed in the RWC they did have all the constituent parts in place by the end of the 6nations.

2011-Wales vs England 6n: Hook; Stoddart, J. Davies, Roberts, Williams; S. Jones, Phillips; James, Rees, Mitchell, A. Jones, B. Davies, Lydiate, Warburton, Powell.
Replacements: Byrne for S. Jones (67), Peel for Phillips (69), Hibbard for Rees (70), R Jones for Powell (33) J Thomas for Lydiate (71), Yapp for Mitchell (71)
Not Used: Priestland

Wales against Ireland in the RWC was the last outing for our first choice players and the side has developed more in the last 2 years of Gatlands regime than in the previous six years. Keeping our coach has been a good business deal as Ruddock never had the dressing room in the way Hansen had and any successor to Gatland in the next few years will struggle to recreate the bond he has built with the players he blooded. Changing the coach 5 times between 2004 -2008 was not good for the teams discipline or on field structure. Is it any wonder what the public knew were talented players underachieved after 2005. What was also clear after 2003-05 was the Welsh players egos went out of control and dressing room power has been cited by many observers as being the downfall of that squad. In part I blame the welsh press for this and the unrealistic demands it places on the players in the goldfish bowl of welsh rugby. In part though the welsh public are also to blame for feting the players and turning them into world beaters before they have achieved it. Losing Hansen in 2004 was a disaster for Wales even if it took 2 years to unravel and we won a six nations along the way. Keeping Gatland this time is a great piece of work. For the first time Wales head into a four year cycle building to the world cup with a team and coach in place to take them there. It takes two world cups to produce the winning team ask Sir Clive. Gatland still has to find a tight head to challenge Adam jones but the rest of his team is there for the forseeable future.

2011 Wales vs Ireland RWC: Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues); George North (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues), Shane Williams (Ospreys); Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne); Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Huw Bennett (Ospreys), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Luke Charteris (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Dragons) Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), Toby Faletau (Dragons).
Replacements: Bradley Davies (Cardiff Blues, for Charteris, 40), James Hook (Perpignan, for Priestland, 77).Not used: Lloyd Burns (Dragons), Paul James (Ospreys), Ryan Jones (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets).

Im not sure that central contracts would work if we tried to implement them now. It would just lead to legal wrangling and region versus nation rows just when we need some stability. I do like the idea of contract top ups for those players in teh natiuonal squad who play in wales though.

The WRU had two chances to bring in Central Contracts, 1 in 95 when game went Pro and then again when we went to Regions but didn't.

I can't see it working now if they tried to bring them in.

Good article Tycroes. I think that Priest in his posts. The key is keeping the players feet on the ground now that they are back in Wales. They havent won anything and lost 3 big games. Secondly form will dip and when it does young players need to be brought in and tested. This way we can build depth, something we still have a problem with in some positions.

Good article. Wales have on many occasions had very young teams who have shown a lot of potential and then imploded. Simply put Wales fans want back the dominance that we had for a 10 year period in the 70's but it will never happen. France and England have much larger talent pools, who's extra financial clout unbalances our regions and makes it hard to hold onto promising and established players.

Ireland have a lot more players, more money, far more fans willing to watch and spend money on their provinces, which are spread across their entire country, and all their players are centrally contracted. Their also not currently competing with 1 club in the English football premier league and 1 club pushing for inclusion.

I don't think Wales will build much on this young talent, to an extent we got lucky because so many of our players were new and other countries simply hadn't had the oppertunity to analyse them in the way they have had the chance to look at teams who had built their team over a 4 year period.

Alyn, Im afraid I dont agree on a number of points.

1. Since 1988 Wales have had one young side implode. where are the many occasions this has happened? This article addresses the reasons why that happened and points out why things are different.

2. Of teh RWC squad only 5 players were registered abroad and Im including Byrne, Mitchell, Hook and Phillips in that even though their contracts didntt start until after the world cup. Only Phillips and Hook could be argued as a first team player in that clutch. So this idea that we cant deal with the financial clout of the french or english so far hasnt materialised, our best players are playing in Wales.

3. Wales have more registered players than Ireland the WRU is making more profit than ireland and invests far more in the game than Ireland. So where you got Ireland have more players or money is quite beyond me.

4.The impact of having a premier club in Swansea hasnt affected Ospreys gates which have gone up again this season. Similarly Cardiffs average gate has gone up.

5. Building on the success of the side depends upon coaching continuity as outlined in the article. For the first time since RWC started we enter the four year process with a team and coach in harmony. That alone suggests we will continue to develop the side rather than trying to start again.

6. The idea that we got lucky because nobody knew our players is a joke. The amount of analysis done in this day and age means that every player was taped and analysed before each game. On top of that we played sides like Ireland, France, SA who have all played agsint these very players in the last season.

I understand pessimism and caution but your not looking at this with any objectivity, You were wrong about us beating samoa, you were wrong about us getting out of the group, you were wrong about the irish game, You thought France would beat us easily you were wrong. You are just as wrong with your statements in this thread.

TycroesOsprey wrote:
3. Wales have more registered players than Ireland the WRU is making more profit than ireland and invests far more in the game than Ireland. So where you got Ireland have more players or money is quite beyond me.

alyn is correct on this one.

Ireland
Number Of Clubs:
221
Number Of Registered Players:
153080
Number of Referees:
2380
Pre-teen Male Players:
57409
Pre-teen Female Player:
6900
Teen Male Player:
57867
Teen Female Player:
2700
Senior Male Player:
25440
Senior Female Player:
2764
Total Male Player:
140716
Total Female Player:
12364

Wales
Number Of Clubs:
0
Number Of Registered Players:
50557
Number of Referees:
2053
Pre-teen Male Players:
12318
Pre-teen Female Player:
100
Teen Male Player:
14500
Teen Female Player:
492
Senior Male Player:
22408
Senior Female Player:
739
Total Male Player:
49226
Total Female Player:
1331

Obviously we got more then zero clubs but IRB shows that 'registered players' is vastly in Ireland's favour. We only got more players than Italy and Scotland in the 6 Nations. Not sure where you get the idea from that the WRU invests a lot more in rugby then Ireland does either.

I do apologise on the registered players but the funding is based upin the profits made by the respective unions and the amount they reinvest in the game. Wales last year turned over 54 milllion quid whilst the Irish had 68 million euros in turnover but only 6.9 mil euros in profit to reinvest as opposed to wales 26.2 million profit and 19.6 million reinvestment in the game. Total Welsh funding to the domestic game was 43 million pounds whilst Ireland cut their investement to 33 million euros. Wales debt is 2/3 that of Irelands.

I know its hard to believe after a lifetime of mismanagement but on the financial side of things as well as planning the WRU have got it right.

tycroes - bendigedig ! Simply one of the most well constructed posts ive read here or on old 606 ! Theres almost nothing to debate as its so comprehensive. But some have tried and looked rather foolish in comparison. point 2 - alun ! ! ! ! DonT take this the wrong way but i donT even have to see your name anymore to spot your posts. You know your rugby Yes but wow dude your soooo negative its untrue ! The glass is half empty with you for sure. You have mis-called Wales's entire campaign this world cup so in future try try try to see a bright side !

Great article, really enjoyable read, as were the contribution bar the obvious trolls.

Mods please can you do something about them. They give nothing to this site whatsoever.


Anyhow

The most promising effect this RWC welsh effort has had is a new enthusiasm at the regions to concentrate efforts on young talent. We have the building blocks to fill the voids in our national squad with youth talent in all positions. The regions need to do a good job on nurturing that talent.

Ospreys, Scarlets and Dragons are all developing front five players well. The backs seem to take care of themselves. Back row looks bountiful and more to follow in players like tipuric etc.

As was stated last year. It is the premiership the wry need to strengthen. That has to become a top competition over the next four years.