Top 3 Wingers in Europe

by RobLewis28 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 9:54 am

First topic message reminder :

Interested to see who you beleive are the top 3 wingers in Europe currently? Try and stay as objective as possible!

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 2:51 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I rate North very Highly and in truth his physical play and pace is pretty much identical to Vissers. I guess it's just down to what club you follow. Very little to draw between North and Visser IMO. For all those who say Scoring tries in the Rabo league is not an indication of how good a player is, then why don't players like Bowe, Howlett et al not score more tries?

I don't disagree with what you are saying re Visser. However to me its not just about the volume of Tries but the context and importance too. Its all very well scoring a load of tries against second rate opposition but another actually posing a serious threat and making a big contribution against the very best teams in the biggest games.

You could near bet your house on the likes of Bowe, Shane Williams, Howlett, Clerc etc. coming to the fore in big games which is why they are at the top of the list. Other players may score more but if you were in a HEC final who would you rather have: Bowe or Visser?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 2:54 pm

rodders, honestly, on current form (which is what the OP asked), Visser - I know they'll be plenty who'll disagree, and that's ok, tis just my opinion

by Thomond Wed 07 Dec 2011, 2:54 pm

1. Williams
2. Bowe
3.Howlett

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:09 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:rodders, honestly, on current form (which is what the OP asked), Visser - I know they'll be plenty who'll disagree, and that's ok, tis just my opinion

Well Williams scored a try against Australia and saved another. Bowe is not on top form but has scored a couple recently for the Ospreys. Howlett has been in superb form and scored a few in the HEC recently.

Visser hasn't been disrupted by the RWC like a lot of the international guys.

Another guy in superb form is Fitzgerald.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:10 pm

Tis true, Fitzy does seem to be getting back towards his Lions best, and as someone said above, Trimble never lets you down

by B91212 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:15 pm

Ashton, Clerc, Howlett in no particular order.

Just because Ashton is a plank doesn't take away from the fact that he is a world class winger. Until Visser proves himself at intentional level I won't consider him (he hardly set the prem alight either but I acknowledge that some players class / ability matures later in their careers than others)

by LordDowlais Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:You have to laugh at people on here, o.k Visser is a world class finisher and is lightening fast, but also mentioned on here Edinburgh's defence is awful and surely Visser contributes to it being awful. Good wingers are the one's that can catch the high ball, cover in defence, know when a chance is on and to come inside, weather to kick or to try and take a man on. Marc Jones for the Scarlets was good at all those things, but he was never rated as he did not finish as much as other wingers. If you look at people's posts on here the like's of Clerc, Bowe, Williams have all been mentioned, But you have to consider players like them as they are good all over the pitch. So here is my top three:- Clerc, North, Bowe.

"You have to laugh at people on here" Really? You don't think Visser is a good player? Top try Scorer in the Celtic league for the last 2 years and already three tries ahead of his nearest competition this year. I know we are all human and will put our own club players ahead of others who are in contention but credit where credit is due. You can't find it laughable that Visser is in contention for the accolade in the OP can you?

As for Vissers defending credentials. In the ERC this year he has made 7 tackles and missed 1.
George North has made 12 tackles and missed 2.

Pretty much equal ratio of missed tackles and made tackles. Differance is Visser has scored 2 tries and North has scored none in the ERC.

I could go digging deeper into stats etc but I can't be bothered and I know stats don't tell the whole story...... everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess.

I rate North very Highly and in truth his physical play and pace is pretty much identical to Vissers. I guess it's just down to what club you follow. Very little to draw between North and Visser IMO. For all those who say Scoring tries in the Rabo league is not an indication of how good a player is, then why don't players like Bowe, Howlett et al not score more tries?

Finally anyone who can skin Tommy Bowe like this is one of the best wingers in European Rugby :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWK5-tysb3I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Ahem, excuse me, but where did I say that Visser is not a good player ? If you read what I said, you will see that I quted "Visser is a world class finisher and is lightening fast". I admit he is probably up there with the best in the league, but Europe ? and for people to say that he does not contribute to Edinburgh's leaky defence is a massive discredit to all the other players in the side. How often does Visser come off his wing looking for work ? There are not many rugby games that I have not watched in the Celtic/Magners/Rabbo Pro 12. I have never seen Visser have a barnstorming game but I have seen him execute moments of sheer class, I have also seen him out of position and not looking for work.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:25 pm

For those saying about Visser not imposing himself on the big stage etc etc, I urge you to watch more Edinburgh games. He scores a try nearly every single game he plays, whether it is weak opposition or strong. Every time he gets the ball he is a constant threat, and I can't wait for him to play for Scotland so that we can see him on the world stage. At the same time, I will be fearful of him as an irish fan. He is very dangerous.

by Golden Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:27 pm

B91212 wrote:Ashton, Clerc, Howlett in no particular order.

Just because Ashton is a plank doesn't take away from the fact that he is a world class winger. Until Visser proves himself at intentional level I won't consider him (he hardly set the prem alight either but I acknowledge that some players class / ability matures later in their careers than others)

What does that even mean?

Is he the best winger in the world? no

Is he in the best 5 wingers in the world? no

What criteria do you need to qualify as world class nowadays? Score 4 tries against an italian team that was getting hammered? Not saying he isnt good but world class?

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:28 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:rodders, honestly, on current form (which is what the OP asked), Visser - I know they'll be plenty who'll disagree, and that's ok, tis just my opinion

+1 Visser has been the best Try Scorer in Europe this season.

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:36 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:rodders, honestly, on current form (which is what the OP asked), Visser - I know they'll be plenty who'll disagree, and that's ok, tis just my opinion

+1 Visser has been the best Try Scorer in Europe this season.

I thought we were discussing who the best wingers were?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:38 pm

roddersm wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:rodders, honestly, on current form (which is what the OP asked), Visser - I know they'll be plenty who'll disagree, and that's ok, tis just my opinion

+1 Visser has been the best Try Scorer in Europe this season.

I thought we were discussing who the best wingers were?

are? So by definition, we'd have to exclude the likes of Howlett, Shaggy, Earls, etc., I think?

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:39 pm

9 times out of 10 highest Scorer goes hand in hand with the title of "the Best".

It's surely no coincedence that Clerc has been universally acclaimed as the best by just about every poster and has Scored the most tries in ERC.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:51 pm

Golden wrote:
B91212 wrote:Ashton, Clerc, Howlett in no particular order.

Just because Ashton is a plank doesn't take away from the fact that he is a world class winger. Until Visser proves himself at intentional level I won't consider him (he hardly set the prem alight either but I acknowledge that some players class / ability matures later in their careers than others)

What does that even mean?

Is he the best winger in the world? no

Is he in the best 5 wingers in the world? no

What criteria do you need to qualify as world class nowadays? Score 4 tries against an italian team that was getting hammered? Not saying he isnt good but world class?

On these forums anything can make you world class.. I am currently arguing against a fair few England fans on the international forum that Foden is not a world class player. Which apparently means I am also saying he isn't very good. I also thought world class meant you are up there with the very best of them. Therefore only a small number in each position can be considered "world class".

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:54 pm

If Visser is so good why is he at Edinburgh and not at a big European club with genuine HEC chances?

by LordDowlais Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:55 pm

I think that the Scottish contingent on here are perhaps looking through thistle tinted glasses. Tim Visser would be an asset to any team in Europe, but the qualities you are looking for to be considered "the best" are not just finishing off moves with blistering pace ( although it is a good asset ), how many times do you see Visser chasing an up and under from his own no 10 and catching it against his opposition ?, how many times do you see him chasing a kick down field and tackling the fullback/winger on their own try line ? , How often do you see him securing the high ball in defence and not turning it over or the opposite and tackling the opposition and turning them over ? How often do you see him tearing up the midfield going past three or four player because he has come inside looking for work ? What Tim Visser does he does well, but I would put him in the same bracket as say Tom James from the Blues or Shane Horgan from Leinster. I am also certian that if he was born as one of the home nations he would be capped by now, but the best in Europe, not for me sorry. thumbsup

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:55 pm

Protecting the international future that he's spent 2.5 yrs (or >75%) earning?

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:56 pm

roddersm wrote:If Visser is so good why is he at Edinburgh and not at a big European club with genuine HEC chances?

I would have thought that was obvious.

He wants to play international Rugby. If he were to move countries again he would have to wait 3 years before getting the chance to play for a country other than Holland.

by hawalsh Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:56 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:highest Scorer goes hand in hand with the title of "the Best".

Top try scorer in the WC, top try scorer in the 6N, second highest in last year's AP (despite missing a number of matches due to international duty), highest in the AP the year before that, and National Division One record holder in his debut year (39 tries in 25 appearances) should be a shoe-in then.

Wink

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:56 pm

roddersm wrote:If Visser is so good why is he at Edinburgh and not at a big European club with genuine HEC chances?

If Ferris is so good (worlds best 6 imo) why is he here at Ulster and not playing for big money in France? Doesn't make sense as an argument Rodders! Visser also has stated he would like to play internationally for Scotland.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I think that the Scottish contingent on here are perhaps looking through thistle tinted glasses. Tim Visser would be an asset to any team in Europe, but the qualities you are looking for to be considered "the best" are not just finishing off moves with blistering pace ( although it is a good asset ), how many times do you see Visser chasing an up and under from his own no 10 and catching it against his opposition ?, how many times do you see him chasing a kick down field and tackling the fullback/winger on their own try line ? , How often do you see him securing the high ball in defence and not turning it over or the opposite and tackling the opposition and turning them over ? How often do you see him tearing up the midfield going past three or four player because he has come inside looking for work ? What Tim Visser does he does well, but I would put him in the same bracket as say Tom James from the Blues or Shane Horgan from Leinster. I am also ceryian that if he was born as one of the home nations he would be capped by now, but the best in Europe, not for me sorry.

LD, you may well be right, but I do LURV my thistle-tinted bins! In answer to your questions, increasingly far more often than he used to, and most of the time to significant effect - which shows what an improving player he is too! Laugh

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:58 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Protecting the international future that he's spent 2.5 yrs (or >75%) earning?

I don't mean this as a WUM but if he's really as good as some are making out he could have 'earned' an international future somewhere else, as well as make a lot more money and win a lot more silverware in the process.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 3:59 pm

But that would be another 3 years, rodders?

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:02 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
roddersm wrote:If Visser is so good why is he at Edinburgh and not at a big European club with genuine HEC chances?

If Ferris is so good (worlds best 6 imo) why is he here at Ulster and not playing for big money in France? Doesn't make sense as an argument Rodders! Visser also has stated he would like to play internationally for Scotland.

Because the IRFU have a policy of picking home based players. Ulster looked to have genuine chances of winning silverware last season based on the players we were signing and maybe he is just passionate about his home province. He also has a a dodgy knee and is well looked after by Ulster and Ireland.

I suspect if Ulster don't improve quickly he may not be here that much longer. Its a totally different scenario.

by Golden Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:05 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I think that the Scottish contingent on here are perhaps looking through thistle tinted glasses. Tim Visser would be an asset to any team in Europe, but the qualities you are looking for to be considered "the best" are not just finishing off moves with blistering pace ( although it is a good asset ), how many times do you see Visser chasing an up and under from his own no 10 and catching it against his opposition ?, how many times do you see him chasing a kick down field and tackling the fullback/winger on their own try line ? , How often do you see him securing the high ball in defence and not turning it over or the opposite and tackling the opposition and turning them over ? How often do you see him tearing up the midfield going past three or four player because he has come inside looking for work ? What Tim Visser does he does well, but I would put him in the same bracket as say Tom James from the Blues or Shane Horgan from Leinster. I am also certian that if he was born as one of the home nations he would be capped by now, but the best in Europe, not for me sorry.

What an insult to Tim Visser and Shane Horgan!

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:05 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I think that the Scottish contingent on here are perhaps looking through thistle tinted glasses. Tim Visser would be an asset to any team in Europe, but the qualities you are looking for to be considered "the best" are not just finishing off moves with blistering pace ( although it is a good asset ), how many times do you see Visser chasing an up and under from his own no 10 and catching it against his opposition ?, how many times do you see him chasing a kick down field and tackling the fullback/winger on their own try line ? Although most commonly into touch, a skill he has perfected , How often do you see him securing the high ball in defence and not turning it over or the opposite and tackling the opposition and turning them over ? Hard to recall any time I have seen Visser get turned over How often do you see him tearing up the midfield you see him doing that every week going past three or four player because he has come inside looking for work ? What Tim Visser does he does well, but I would put him in the same bracket as say Tom James from the Blues or Shane Horgan from Leinster. I am also certian that if he was born as one of the home nations he would be capped by now, but the best in Europe, not for me sorry.

I watch just about every Edinburgh game and I could say most weeks he does the items highlighted in bold.

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:06 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: But that would be another 3 years, rodders?

Maybe so but I just don't think this guy is as good as hes made out to be. With due respect he is Dutch and if he was the best winger in Europe I don't believe he'd still be playing for Edinburgh just so he can play for Scotland. No offence to the scots intended Braveheart

.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:07 pm

rodders, none taken, happy to agree to disagree

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:09 pm

It's clear from this I disagree with a lot of people here. Visser has been top scorer in the Magners League 2 years running and has been in the Magners League Dream team 2 years running denying slots to Tommy Bowe, Shane Williams and Doug Howlett in the process. He is currently top try scorer in the Rabo Pro 12 and joint top Scorer in the ERC. What more does a man have to do to be considered the best these days?

His all round game is Solid, he makes his tackles, he has improved his positioning, he rarely gets turned over, he is big, strong, fast and agile.

What more credentials do you need to be considered one of the best in Eurpoe?

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:11 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:rodders, none taken, happy to agree to disagree

When he's running in tries in the 6N (preferably against England Very Happy

) then I'll be happy to say he's up there. He does look very good but I want to see him perform regularly against the very best before putting him up there with the likes of Bowe, Howlett, Williams etc.

by beshocked Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:13 pm

True roddersm you think one of the big French,English or even Pro12 clubs would have snapped him up.

No offence ALAB1OUS but I don't really see Edinburgh as a big side.

Rory Gallagher Ferris worlds best no 6? Seriously? I think you've opened a whole new can of worms there.

ruggerradge to be considered the best in Europe you need to succeed on the European stage - the HC and in internationals (6 nations).

by maestegmafia Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:13 pm

I would say that there has to be at least one subjective vote that does not rely on stats.

Yes stats prove Visser and Clerc are undoubtedly excellent finishers. But both also do great work in manufacturing tries, amazing work in creating tries for other people, starting attacks from defensive situations. Things that other recognised Wingers can't do.

Thats why i said Shane Williams, he is in that same class. Players like Ashton, Horgan, Tom James, Tommy Bowe can score plenty and out pace or out muscle players, but they miss the X factor that Clerc, Visser and Williams have that stats dont show.

That X factor is who would you want in your side if you could have any player in that position in the ERC...! For me those three would be Visser, Clerc and Williams.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:15 pm

roddersm wrote:When he's running in tries in the 6N (preferably against England ) then I'll be happy to say he's up there. He does look very good but I want to see him perform regularly against the very best before putting him up there with the likes of Bowe, Howlett, Williams etc.

I would be happy to see him Scoring tries for fun against England too, he scored 2 against them already when playing for the Baa Baa's.

As for coming up against the best, like Tommy Bowe, check this clip out.

Tommy Bowe is the one who is turned inside out and falls on his backside Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWK5-tysb3I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

by **rodders** Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:16 pm

FFS would people stop bringing up Tom James! Laugh

by beshocked Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:16 pm

Visser can be called the best winger in the Pro12 but no more no less.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:17 pm

beshocked wrote:True roddersm you think one of the big French,English or even Pro12 clubs would have snapped him up.

No offence ALAB1OUS but I don't really see Edinburgh as a big side.

Rory Gallagher Ferris worlds best no 6? Seriously? I think you've opened a whole new can of worms there.

ruggerradge to be considered the best in Europe you need to succeed on the European stage - the HC and in internationals (6 nations).

I agree beshocked, however the OP asked to debate who was the best currently. Currently in the absence of the 6N and what has been played in HC & Domestic League Visser has to be considered.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:18 pm

P.S. loving the debate, it's nice to talk about the reasons who is included in being the best instead of it degenerating into WUMing Hug

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:19 pm

beshocked wrote:True roddersm you think one of the big French,English or even Pro12 clubs would have snapped him up.

No offence ALAB1OUS but I don't really see Edinburgh as a big side.

Rory Gallagher Ferris worlds best no 6? Seriously? I think you've opened a whole new can of worms there.

ruggerradge to be considered the best in Europe you need to succeed on the European stage - the HC and in internationals (6 nations).

I wouldn't say Edinburgh were a big side either, beshocked, but I would hazard a guess that there's loads of 'bigger' clubs would happily snap him up now tho, but he's only interested in a Scottish cap at this stage. It's a bit difficult to ask him to 'succeed on the European stage - the HC and in internationals' when he doesn't yet qualify for the latter? We can only go on what we see

by TJ1 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote: how many times do you see Visser chasing an up and under from his own no 10 and catching it against his opposition ?, how many times do you see him chasing a kick down field and tackling the fullback/winger on their own try line ? , How often do you see him securing the high ball in defence and not turning it over or the opposite and tackling the opposition and turning them over ? How often do you see him tearing up the midfield going past three or four player because he has come inside looking for work ?

Yup - he does all of that. Check the youtube highlights.

The reason he is still with Edinburgh is because he wants to play international rugby and knows his best chance is with Scotland - he is also enjoying his rugby in Edinburgh - its nice to be a big fish in a small pond.

I posted other links to him - and I know selected highlights mean little a bit of him on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIJfiXefLaI

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:20 pm

roddersm wrote:FFS would people stop bringing up Tom James!

I've always said that his cousin, Jessie, is the better player

by Feckless Rogue Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:22 pm

RuggerRadge, I think he's brilliant. But people haven't seen him at the highest level yet. International and latter HEC stages. So I guess they just need more convincing before they're willing to rate him as highly as players of obvious international pedigree like Howlett and Clerc.

If you have no doubts he's one of the best then good for you. You'll just need to bide your time until your proven right,

by Guest Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:22 pm

Visser has an awful lot still to prove at the highest level (Heineken Cup and internationally) so I think we can only view him as having potential at the moment.

He's done as much as can be expected of him to date, but it's probably best to hold fire for a season or two to assess whether he will become a good top-level player.

by Turkster Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:24 pm

TJ wrote:

The reason he is still with Edinburgh is because he wants to play international rugby and knows his best chance is with Scotland

can't be that good then if he wasn't confident about getting in to a decent team.

by IanBru Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:25 pm

Behave Turk

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:26 pm

Turkster wrote:
TJ wrote:

The reason he is still with Edinburgh is because he wants to play international rugby and knows his best chance is with Scotland

can't be that good then if he wasn't confident about getting in to a decent team.

Que?

by Imperialbigdave Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I think that the Scottish contingent on here are perhaps looking through thistle tinted glasses. Tim Visser would be an asset to any team in Europe, but the qualities you are looking for to be considered "the best" are not just finishing off moves with blistering pace ( although it is a good asset ), how many times do you see Visser chasing an up and under from his own no 10 and catching it against his opposition ?, how many times do you see him chasing a kick down field and tackling the fullback/winger on their own try line ? , How often do you see him securing the high ball in defence and not turning it over or the opposite and tackling the opposition and turning them over ? How often do you see him tearing up the midfield going past three or four player because he has come inside looking for work ? What Tim Visser does he does well, but I would put him in the same bracket as say Tom James from the Blues or Shane Horgan from Leinster. I am also certian that if he was born as one of the home nations he would be capped by now, but the best in Europe, not for me sorry.

Im sorry, but he does all of those things, and does them well, week in, week out. You have just made it blindingly clear that you do not watch him enough to formulate an accurate assesment of his play, because that paragraph has as much value as sainsburys basics toilet paper.

and again, the one ive highlighted in bold is an outrageous claim considering thats one of the things hes best at.

by TJ1 Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:29 pm

So whats our shortlist then?

Visser - but yet to prove it on teh biggest stages ( but 2 trys against engladn for the babas :-) )
Bowe -

Ashton - great poacher but question marks over his temperament and defence

Clerc -he is damn good

Williams now retired

Wh else?

by geoff998rugby Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:33 pm

Until Visser plays International rugby the jury is out.

Someone mentioned World Class and what it was - here's a definition I think is apt:

Take the best side in the World - lets call them the All Blacks for the sake of arguement Laugh

Would the player being added to the side maintain the standard of the team and/or would they bring something to the team that the All Blacks currently dont have

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:37 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:Until Visser plays International rugby the jury is out.

... in your opinion

by Sin é Wed 07 Dec 2011, 4:43 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It's clear from this I disagree with a lot of people here. Visser has been top scorer in the Magners League 2 years running and has been in the Magners League Dream team 2 years running denying slots to Tommy Bowe, Shane Williams and Doug Howlett in the process. He is currently top try scorer in the Rabo Pro 12 and joint top Scorer in the ERC. What more does a man have to do to be considered the best these days?

His all round game is Solid, he makes his tackles, he has improved his positioning, he rarely gets turned over, he is big, strong, fast and agile.

What more credentials do you need to be considered one of the best in Eurpoe?

I would not take making the Rabo dream team seriously - Jamie Heaslip made it last year even though he played something like 6 matches! BOD used make it regularly without ever playing in it and despite Munster running away with the league last year, ROG was the only Munster player to make the team (and he would not be playing that often in it either).

Bowe, Williams etc. have not (and rarely) play the same no. of games as Visser, so he gets more chances.

Bowe, Howlett have scored two tries this season in the HCup. Clerc has scored one in 1 start.

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