Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Another thing to note is that the clubs in the S15 are not as rich as some of the HEC clubs. They can't afford to buy a world class player in a position they may be lacking, which many of the french times can do. The S15 does seem to take a lot of pacific islander players as well, who then go on to represent their adopted country. Something that has been discussed here is Ireland possibly doing something similar, taking young players from the likes of NZ and offering them a 3 year contract so they become IQ. That is the same thing as NZ/Australia taking the samoans/fijians/tongans IMO.

Isn't there a player who is Irish in the Australian squad (parents both Irish, born in England and then moved to Aus). Think he might have done some of his schooling in Ireland as well.

Can't be sure how reliable Wiki is but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Moore_(rugby_union)

roddersm wrote:

How's Howlett and BJ's pensions coming along there by the way? I don't recall you compaining about Howlett's signing or any extensions hes had before?

No doubt you will recall me not complaining about their inability to sign a new extension in 2 years time.

I'm not sure, but even that Reds squad has a New Zealander (Cooper) and a Fijian (Samo). Not sure if the rest are all from Australia. It is the same though as Ireland using their project players. And when this new ruling comes in, Ireland will poach players from other countries at a younger age. Or that is what I think would happen at least.

Sin é wrote:
Isn't there a player who is Irish in the Australian squad (parents both Irish, born in England and then moved to Aus). Think he might have done some of his schooling in Ireland as well.

Isn't he English?

Mickado wrote:Can't be sure how reliable Wiki is but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Moore_(rugby_union)

There are many more cases I am sure. Mostly coming from the PI.

Pocock is from Zimbabwe or something too, aren't his parents South African?

Quick question.

If this initiative doesn't work, when do we draw a line under it?

If these new rules came into place, and the provincial performances suffer, and the national team's performances don't improve, do we stick with it?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Isn't there a player who is Irish in the Australian squad (parents both Irish, born in England and then moved to Aus). Think he might have done some of his schooling in Ireland as well.

Isn't he English?

He is Saudi. Don't think they have much of a rugby team there

Mickado - he is the one. I think there might be someone else as well (maybe not so prominent). The bloke I'm thinking of went to school in Clongowes.

roddersm wrote:Pocock is from Zimbabwe or something too, aren't his parents South African?

Yeah, but that is my point. If that is the template we are following, do we want to start doing this? Bringing in plenty of young project players from across the globe? The foreigners we sign are there to help the clubs, not the international team. Which is why this whole ruling has been brought into place. We have to sign them however, to keep up with other teams. Every team in the HEC must have a good squad of players, mostly made up of their own home-bred players, but including the all important signings.

Don Alfonso wrote:Quick question.

If this initiative doesn't work, when do we draw a line under it?

If these new rules came into place, and the provincial performances suffer, and the national team's performances don't improve, do we stick with it?

Good question. I don't think the national team is going to suffer directly, but the provinces certainly will. Which could have a knock on effect and reduce the morale of our national team, if they are not winning the league/cup matches.

Rory - I think the Big Team probably will suffer. I don't think this will work (although I applaud the sentiment).

I also think it's worth bearing in mind that it will come in at the same time as a new national coach. There'll be confusion over whether the new guy or this initiative is the real cause of any gain or loss in fortunes in a couple of years' time.

There's something I just noticed. They use the term Non Irish Eligible, not Non Irish Qualified. Does that mean the provinces can sign as many uncapped foreigners as they want? ie they're potentially eligible to play for Ireland if they stay long enough?

No - the other way around. NIE includes project players until they have been here three years.

Nipps wrote:Hi All.

I have been reading this topic and have felt the need to post. I'm an Irish rugby follower, I watch most provincial games and like to see all the provinces doing well just like eveyone else. I attend Irish internationals when possible and have been to a few Leinster HC games.

I have just returned from Australia having spent the last year there and feel the need to post. While I was there I have watched a fair amount of S15 rugby. The topic of NIQ's has made me think about the S15 champions Queensland Reds. Their team for the final was as follows:

1. Ben Daley , 2. Saia Faingaa , 3. Greg Holmes , 4. Rob Simmons , 5. James Horwill (c) , 6. Scott Higginbotham , 7. Beau Robinson , 8. Radike Samo , 9. Will Genia (vc) , 10. Quade Cooper , 11. Digby Ioane , 12. Ben Tapuai , 13. Anthony Faingaa , 14. Rod Davies , 15. Jono Lance

Replacements : 16. James Hanson , 17. Guy Shepherdson , 18. Adam Wallace-Harrison , 19. Jake Schatz , 20. Liam Gill , 21. Ian Prior , 22. Will Chambers

Now I'm not fully sure regarding the nationality of all their players but I'm pretty sure their 1st 15 are all AQ.

Without being too simplistic about the proposals, this team is a template for what the IRFU are hoping to achieve. I don't understand why posters from Ulster are so against the IRFU proposed changes??? They just like all the rest of the provinces, have vast amounts of young talent which need to be trusted and given an opportunity. These proposals will force the provinces hands and I for one think this is a good idea.

Thats my two cents, it's there to be shot down....

Just before I finish could anyone ever picture a S15 side signing a journey-man european player of the calibure of Clint Newland or Stefan Terblanche??

Did Andy Goode not sign very briefly for the sharks?

Nipps while it is fantastic that the Reds were able to do that it isn't feasible in Europe. The game is totally different. Ben Daley would be crucified in European competitions. Ulster have a young prop Macklin that is getting decent gametime but to throw him in against the Clermonts and Toulouse s of the world from the start would be detrimental to his development and confidence.

you mention Ulster and you are right in that there are many young backs coming through our academy. that's why we won't have any NIQ outside backs next year. We don't have many/any locks or backfire coming through though so we need to strengthen there. NIQ's need to decided on judiciously I agree but the reality is that the likes of Botha has done so much for Irish rugby developing the young props up here and that Muller is doing a great job brining on Tuohy that they are vital to our development.

Whilst I agree it is great to see the Reds all Oz team it did them no favours as Ireland beat Australia at the RWC. Obviously the provinces aren't doing a bad job so far.

Ireland beat Australia at the RWC

Good point. Irish teams have more foreigners than Australian teams and we beat them. I think the Welsh allow a higher quota of foreigners than us and they beat us. What does that tell you?

The more foreigners, the better the indigenous players get.

Don Alfonso wrote:The more foreigners, the better the indigenous players get.

I think this is critical in terms of coaching. The more perspectives and ideas you can entertain the easier it should be to find the one that works for the national team. Experience is king and the more you can draw on the better.

Don Alfonso wrote:Quick question.

If this initiative doesn't work, when do we draw a line under it?

If these new rules came into place, and the provincial performances suffer, and the national team's performances don't improve, do we stick with it?

Good point Don. I think it should and will be reviewed. Not sure, but it would be prudent to have in-built re-assessment on a yearly basis. One size doesnt fit all.
They should have just reduced the number of NIQ's by 1 for the next few years, review it yearly, halt/pause it, if things get tough and not restrict them positionally across the provinces.
That is the real bu88er in this directive. It will cause inter-provincial ructions.

There will be tears.

But, Im all for it long-term, just not the way its been laid out.

Standulstermen wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:The more foreigners, the better the indigenous players get.

I think this is critical in terms of coaching. The more perspectives and ideas you can entertain the easier it should be to find the one that works for the national team. Experience is king and the more you can draw on the better.

Foreign players can also be a crutch that will mean the national team doesn't succeed. Listen to rodders & Gibbo's mantra. "Ireland will only succeed if Ireland has a foreign coach." Excuses, excuses.

Don Alfonso wrote:The more foreigners, the better the indigenous players get.

Totally agree. That has definitley been the case at Leinster. Contepomi - Sexton. Le Roux & Wright - Healy. Elsom - SOB.

It should be in all our NIQ's remit to leave a lasting legacy. This directive negatively affects that.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:The more foreigners, the better the indigenous players get.

I think this is critical in terms of coaching. The more perspectives and ideas you can entertain the easier it should be to find the one that works for the national team. Experience is king and the more you can draw on the better.

Foreign players can also be a crutch that will mean the national team doesn't succeed. Listen to rodders & Gibbo's mantra. "Ireland will only succeed if Ireland has a foreign coach." Excuses, excuses.

Sin,
In 2 years, I really hope Conor O Shea is available. Just the man we need at the helm. Foreign is not always best. I dont go for that mantra. Just would help if the coach was not ex provincial. No bias. I think O |Shea could handle that. I'd rather have an Irish coach. But a foreign backs-coach - most definitely.

Wonder what BOD is doing when he hangs up his boots? Reckon he could be the man for our backs.

Standulstermen wrote:you mention Ulster and you are right in that there are many young backs coming through our academy. that's why we won't have any NIQ outside backs next year. We don't have many/any locks or backfire coming through though so we need to strengthen there. NIQ's need to decided on judiciously I agree but the reality is that the likes of Botha has done so much for Irish rugby developing the young props up here and that Muller is doing a great job brining on Tuohy that they are vital to our development.

Quite right. Ulster will have an NIQ backrow and lock though because there are no really good prospects at 4, 5, 6 or 8.

But then I suppose five years down the line those players will move on- thats where I'm missing the other part of this directive, the part that is missing that would be needed to make it work, which is encouraging players from other provinces who have strength in depth in one area to provinces who have no strength in depth in that area. For instance, outside the first team, Ulster have lots of good Irish centres. Munster have lots of good Irish locks and backrows. But Ulster have an NIQ lock and backrow, whereas Munster have two NIQ centres.

Provinces are going to be weak in certain areas and over-stocked in others. Unless the IRFU can come up with a way to spread the talent around the country where its needed this is all a bit pointless.

Gibson wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:The more foreigners, the better the indigenous players get.

Totally agree. That has definitley been the case at Leinster. Contepomi - Sexton. Le Roux & Wright - Healy. Elsom - SOB.

It should be in all our NIQ's remit to leave a lasting legacy. This directive negatively affects that.

Sexton now says that ROG has helped him most with his game. All due respect, but Contepomi held him back. Sexton has said that he tried to play like The Doc and it just was not his game.

Ollie le Roux was excellent - Stan Wright learned as much from him as did Healy.

Elsom was only here for a season and he left a legacy. If these foreign players can't impart their knowledge over a year, their students are not very bright. Its not exactly brain surgery they are learning to do.

Notch wrote:
Unless the IRFU can come up with a way to spread the talent around the country where its needed this is all a bit pointless.

The IRFU does have a way of persuading people to move province. For instance, Mike Ross took a pay cut to play for Leinster because he was told by Kidney that he would have a better chance if he was playing rugby in Ireland. Sean Cronin was told he needed to be playing Heineken Cup rugby by Kidney - so, Cronin got a move to Leinster.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:The more foreigners, the better the indigenous players get.

I think this is critical in terms of coaching. The more perspectives and ideas you can entertain the easier it should be to find the one that works for the national team. Experience is king and the more you can draw on the better.

Foreign players can also be a crutch that will mean the national team doesn't succeed. Listen to rodders & Gibbo's mantra. "Ireland will only succeed if Ireland has a foreign coach." Excuses, excuses.

Is that my mantra?! I think Gibson has answered already and it's a seperate issue. O'Shea or further down the line McCall would be great but a SH coach with no provincial baggage and immune to the politics here could really take us forward I feel. We are too insular at times and that outside influence of top class overseas players and coaches, within reason, is extremely important for us to remain at the top tier of world rugby and progress to the next level.

Sin é wrote: Sean Cronin was told he needed to be playing Heineken Cup rugby by Kidney - so, Cronin got a move to Leinster.

Did Kidney not realise Connacht had qualified for the HEC? I suppose he was the brains behind Keatley and Carrs moves to?

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:
Unless the IRFU can come up with a way to spread the talent around the country where its needed this is all a bit pointless.

The IRFU does have a way of persuading people to move province. For instance, Mike Ross took a pay cut to play for Leinster because he was told by Kidney that he would have a better chance if he was playing rugby in Ireland. Sean Cronin was told he needed to be playing Heineken Cup rugby by Kidney - so, Cronin got a move to Leinster.

Thats not what I'm talking about. Can you give me an example of a player who has been encouraged to move from one of Ulster, Leinster and Munster to another.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote: Sean Cronin was told he needed to be playing Heineken Cup rugby by Kidney - so, Cronin got a move to Leinster.

Did Kidney not realise Connacht had qualified for the HEC? I suppose he was the brains behind Keatley and Carrs moves to?

Connact didn't qualify for the Heineken Cup until Leinster won it in May. Sean Cronin (& the rest of them) were sorting out new contracts this time last year.

Pity Ulster went for Payne instead of Carr - I'd prefer to see Carr playing HCup rugby than Terblance.

Keatley has gone as far as he can with Connacht. He will get his chance. Early days yet.

Sin é wrote:
Sexton now says that ROG has helped him most with his game. All due respect, but Contepomi held him back. Sexton has said that he tried to play like The Doc and it just was not his game.

Strange... as it is as plain as daylight itself that Sexton's style is far more akin to Comtepomi than O'Gara. Quotes are all great and good but evidence hitting you in the eye is irrefutable. Surely, Sin é, even you see more Contepomi in Sexton than O'Gara?

Notch wrote:
Thats not what I'm talking about. Can you give me an example of a player who has been encouraged to move from one of Ulster, Leinster and Munster to another.

From what I hear, Cronin was told to go to Leinster. He wanted to go back home to Limerick. Similar situation to Reddan who also wanted to come back to Limerick. The provinces can't bid against each other. With Fla' & Fogs injury last year, Munster could have done with Cronin - instead Munster had to bring through Sherry fairly quickly. Luckily he looks to be the real deal.

Sin é wrote:
Pity Ulster went for Payne instead of Carr - I'd prefer to see Carr playing HCup rugby than Terblance.

I'd rather see Danny Barnes play HEC than Mafi and Chambers too but I suppose we don't camplain when our team is winning eh?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Sexton now says that ROG has helped him most with his game. All due respect, but Contepomi held him back. Sexton has said that he tried to play like The Doc and it just was not his game.

Strange... as it is as plain as daylight itself that Sexton's style is far more akin to Comtepomi than O'Gara. Quotes are all great and good but evidence hitting you in the eye is irrefutable. Surely, Sin é, even you see more Contepomi in Sexton than O'Gara?

Only going on what he said. He said he tried to be Contempomi (who wasn't a great outhalf) - mostly his team didn't know what he was going to do next. He was lucky to have BOD outside him who could keep up with his speed of thought. Contempomi used to do mad things.

Sexton has learned an awful lot from ROG about game management. His first 6Ns, he couldn't get Ireland out of its own 22!

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Pity Ulster went for Payne instead of Carr - I'd prefer to see Carr playing HCup rugby than Terblance.

I'd rather see Danny Barnes play HEC than Mafi and Chambers too but I suppose we don't complain when our team is winning eh?

Danny Barnes is in danger of being over used. 13 games this season so far.

Munster used a variety of centre partnerships last season including Johne Murphy partnering Earls in the Heineken Cup at one stage. Hurley was also used as well. Everyone is getting a tryout there.

Do you have quotes for any of this sin?

I think ROG is starting to model his game on Contepomi these days too, maybe hes learning of Sexton?

Sin é wrote:
Munster used a variety of centre partnerships last season including Johne Murphy partnering Earls in the Heineken Cup at one stage. Hurley was also used as well. Everyone is getting a tryout there.

That may be true but when it comes to the HEC Mafi or Chambers or both have got the nod. It's strange that Ulster playing Terblanche seems to upset you more than the Munster lads being kept out by Mafi or Chambers? A bit of double standards maybe?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Sexton now says that ROG has helped him most with his game. All due respect, but Contepomi held him back. Sexton has said that he tried to play like The Doc and it just was not his game.

Strange... as it is as plain as daylight itself that Sexton's style is far more akin to Comtepomi than O'Gara. Quotes are all great and good but evidence hitting you in the eye is irrefutable. Surely, Sin é, even you see more Contepomi in Sexton than O'Gara?

Its obvious. And not just in his game. How he carries himself. Hard not to learn from mentors when you are training and playing with them day-in day-out. Gave him a huge cuddle of thanks af the end of the 2009 HC Final. I was right beside them. Master -> Pupil -> Master. It was palpable. I have a pic of it. Sexton is also learning game-management from ROG. He admires and respects him. For sure. But not too much. We need them pushing each other. Ego is important for a top outhalf.

I think the really great players always take something from every good source they can get it from. Pick out attributes they are so much better at, take advice and hone them. Then, be your own man. Also, having Sexton on his back for the last year or so has improved ROG'S attacking/running game considerably. Its a two-way street. And a great situation. Kidney should be praised for it. Now, he has to start entrusting Sexton more than ROG. Its pure logic. Even when he has a bad day at the office - trust him. Back him. Like ROG was trusted after a lot of bad games in the past.

Im not going to argue about those 2 any more. Just fantastic that we have 2 great and very different, Outhalves. Remember only 2 years ago? It was scarey what would have happened had ROG got injured. Now, we really need to be looking at a 3rd OH. That situation must never be let happen again.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Munster used a variety of centre partnerships last season including Johne Murphy partnering Earls in the Heineken Cup at one stage. Hurley was also used as well. Everyone is getting a tryout there.

That may be true but when it comes to the HEC Mafi or Chambers or both have got the nod. It's strange that Ulster playing Terblanche seems to upset you more than the Munster lads being kept out by Mafi or Chambers? A bit of double standards maybe?

Barnes 13 games
Mafi 13 games
Chambers 8 games

As you see, Barnes is getting the same gametime as Mafi - and the season isn't over yet. Chambers will be finishing up shortly.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Sexton now says that ROG has helped him most with his game. All due respect, but Contepomi held him back. Sexton has said that he tried to play like The Doc and it just was not his game.

Strange... as it is as plain as daylight itself that Sexton's style is far more akin to Comtepomi than O'Gara. Quotes are all great and good but evidence hitting you in the eye is irrefutable. Surely, Sin é, even you see more Contepomi in Sexton than O'Gara?

Only going on what he said. He said he tried to be Contempomi (who wasn't a great outhalf) - mostly his team didn't know what he was going to do next. He was lucky to have BOD outside him who could keep up with his speed of thought. Contempomi used to do mad things.

Sexton has learned an awful lot from ROG about game management. His first 6Ns, he couldn't get Ireland out of its own 22!

God Sin please stop this man, its getting embarrassing now. Contepomi was a genius and a sublime outhalf. Also excellent at 12. He was unique. Nobody is like Contepomi. His vision and speed of thought was beyond compare. That's why BOD always hung on his shoulder.

Just one example and there are 100's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pksH-ttiSu4

Sin é wrote:
Barnes 13 games
Mafi 13 games
Chambers 8 games

As you see, Barnes is getting the same gametime as Mafi - and the season isn't over yet. Chambers will be finishing up shortly.

As the point you made about Terblanche was specific to the HEC maybe the stats for that tournament only would be more appropriate? So basically you are happy enough then with Mafi and Chambers playing then? You seem to be really concerned about the NIQ's at the other provinces?

Sin é wrote:He [Contepomi] was lucky to have BOD outside him who could keep up with his speed of thought. Contempomi used to do mad things.

I salute you Sin é. THAT is the perfect example of modern rugby in microcosm. No, not Contepomi's 'mad things' but the idea that BOD was outside him and "could keep up with his speed of thought". Those two sentences say so much Sin é.

Firstly, if Contepomi is doing 'mad things' you can be sure he's also scaring the hell out of his opponents. If you're capable of the weird and wonderful, you add to the mental workload of your opponents - good.
But yes too, Contepomi going 'mad' has the potential to be disasterous not just for the opponents but also his own team mates. They have pre-planned structures, and a fruity fly-half running riot and throwing out the gameplan is seriously unsettling - bad.

But players honed to the idea that their fly-half will have a few bizarre ideas during a game, players trained to expect and respond to breaks in protocol, players capable of keeping up to the "speed of thought" of their companions - that is a definition of modern, effective, unpredictable rugby. In my book - very, very good

So let's not detract from the immediate instincts of 'mad' players and rather construct our gameplan to rapidly respond to any evidence of madness. If everyone reacts, rather than stand and wonder why, then you have a break that can put some points on the board. France always say it openly - openly - they don't fear Ireland because they KNOW how Ireland are going to play. Crippling insight coming from outside.

Mike Gibson used do mad things. O Driscoll does mad things. So did Gareth Edwards. Its what made them 3 of the best players rugby has ever seen.
Contepomi, in his own imitable style - matched these guys for mad things.
I love mad players. Its why I go to watch rugby. Cant stand constant, forward-orientated - dirge. Its necessary sometimes,has it own inherent beauty. The backs need it to feed off.
But. These players light up a game midst all the dirge.

Fly,
break with protocol... loove it.

Why would ulster sign Carr when we quite clearly need experience in the back line. Im not sure what Peter Nelson and Craig Gilroy or Adam D'arcy for that matter would learn from Fionn Carr. I know Payne is NIQ and Nelson will be well past his prime at the ripe old age of 21 when he leaves but surely imparting experience and knowledge would be a better job for Payne or terblanche as opposed to the extensive experience that Fionn Carr could offer (of the amlin)

Gibson wrote:
I love mad players.

Quote of the Day Gibbo.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:He [Contepomi] was lucky to have BOD outside him who could keep up with his speed of thought. Contempomi used to do mad things.

I salute you Sin é. THAT is the perfect example of modern rugby in microcosm. No, not Contepomi's 'mad things' but the idea that BOD was outside him and "could keep up with his speed of thought". Those two sentences say so much Sin é.

Firstly, if Contepomi is doing 'mad things' you can be sure he's also scaring the hell out of his opponents. If you're capable of the weird and wonderful, you add to the mental workload of your opponents - good.
But yes too, Contepomi going 'mad' has the potential to be disasterous not just for the opponents but also his own team mates. They have pre-planned structures, and a fruity fly-half running riot and throwing out the gameplan is seriously unsettling - bad.

But players honed to the idea that their fly-half will have a few bizarre ideas during a game, players trained to expect and respond to breaks in protocol, players capable of keeping up to the "speed of thought" of their companions - that is a definition of modern, effective, unpredictable rugby. In my book - very, very good

So let's not detract from the immediate instincts of 'mad' players and rather construct our gameplan to rapidly respond to any evidence of madness. If everyone reacts, rather than stand and wonder why, then you have a break that can put some points on the board. France always say it openly - openly - they don't fear Ireland because they KNOW how Ireland are going to play. Crippling insight coming from outside.

First of all, where did I say that Contempomi is a 'mad' player. I posted that he did 'mad' things (things like, tap & go behind his own line and getting turned over, taking a drop goal and losing the game against Toulouse for Stade because he didn't realise that Stade needed more than 3 pts etc). Contepomi is/was a great centre. He is just not a good outhalf. Toulon lost badly against Munster in Thomond Park with him at outhalf. They did much better with Wilko there. Look at the outhalf that Toulon held onto and look at the one they let go.

Leinster actually play a lot of rehearsed moves with Sexton at OH (i.e., Gaffney's loop move).

Standulstermen wrote:Why would ulster sign Carr when we quite clearly need experience in the back line. Im not sure what Peter Nelson and Craig Gilroy or Adam D'arcy for that matter would learn from Fionn Carr. I know Payne is NIQ and Nelson will be well past his prime at the ripe old age of 21 when he leaves but surely imparting experience and knowledge would be a better job for Payne or terblanche as opposed to the extensive experience that Fionn Carr could offer (of the amlin)

And yet, and yet.... there were so many angry Ulstermen when Fionn Carr appeared to slight them by resisting Ulster and waiting to go home to Leinster. I had a tough time back then making the guys understand that it wasn't an insult but merely a young man who wanted to play for the Province he came from.

Standulstermen wrote:Why would ulster sign Carr when we quite clearly need experience in the back line. Im not sure what Peter Nelson and Craig Gilroy or Adam D'arcy for that matter would learn from Fionn Carr. I know Payne is NIQ and Nelson will be well past his prime at the ripe old age of 21 when he leaves but surely imparting experience and knowledge would be a better job for Payne or terblanche as opposed to the extensive experience that Fionn Carr could offer (of the amlin)

Pienaar, Humphreys, Wallace, Cave, Trimble are all experienced. That doesn't leave a lot of space for inexperience if you include Terblance/Payne.

Sin é, name a great player that didn't do a few dumb things - greatness is the very edge between glorious and disaster. It's why it works, because it's chanced in the first place, which also means it doesn't always come off.

And as for Leinster's rehearsed moves - for sure. But also a lot of heads-up, quick response, off-the-cuff play too. You can't plan all of it as pure physics means players won't be always where you want them to be, especially the opposition! But you can be drilled and drilled to ensure rapid responses to events on the field. It's how your team mates respond to your act of 'madness' that can often decide whether it's foolhardy or a try. That's the point I'm trying to make.

SecretFly wrote:
And yet, and yet.... there were so many angry Ulstermen when Fionn Carr appeared to slight them by resisting Ulster and waiting to go home to Leinster.

Were there? I don't recall anyone being particularly bothered. I certainly made comments to the effect that I didn't want a player who didn't really want to play for us. I don't think he's a particularly great player and don't think he'd have added much to our side anyway. Good luck to him at his home province but can't see him making it down there given the competition.

SecretFly wrote:Sin é, name a great player that didn't do a few dumb things - greatness is the very edge between glorious and disaster. It's why it works, because it's chanced in the first place, which also means it doesn't always come off.

And as for Leinster's rehearsed moves - for sure. But also a lot of heads-up, quick response, off-the-cuff play too. You can't plan all of it as pure physics means players won't be always where you want them to be, especially the opposition! But you can be drilled and drilled to ensure rapid responses to events on the field. It's how your team mates respond to your act of 'madness' that can often decide whether it's foolhardy or a try. That's the point I'm trying to make.

You will win nothing if you're outhalf does dumb things. Whatever about anyone else they can't. Look at Ian Humphreys who can be quite brilliant. I've posted elsewhere on the forum that if Ulster want to win anything, they should put Pienaar at outhalf.

We had the sublime - now the match losing ridiculous!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP3yLxzmOLI