2011 Year end 606V2 P4P Top 15 (please submit VOTES!)

First topic message reminder :

It's time for the year-end 606V2 POUND FOR POUND Top 15 rankings.

Rules:
-Only 1 post per 606 member.
-Only active fighters allowed (must of fought in the last 12 months unless officially retired eg David Haye)
-Outlandish listing’s will be DQ.

Principles:
Your Top 15 should be based as at the current point in time.

Point Scoring System:
Quite simple, #1 scores 15 points, #2 scores 14 points etc… I will tally up the totals by the deadline date and will present the results (using my Excel wizardry).

NOTE: PLEASE TRY AND USE FULL NAMES & LIST NAMES!

For the record, the previous Top 15 606v2 P4P rankings as at 11th November 2011 was:

1 Floyd Mayweather Jr (5)
2 Manny Pacquiao (1)
3 Nonito Donaire (3)
4 Sergio Martinez (2)
5 Juan Manuel Marquez (4)
6 Yuriorkis Gamboa (7)
7 Wladimir Klistchko (6)
8 Pongsaklek Wongjongkam (9)
9 Andre Ward (12)
10 Carl Froch (10)
11 Giovanni Segura (14)
12 Amir Khan (11)
13 Bernard Hopkins (8)
14 Timothy Bradley (13)
15 Vitali Klitschko (16)


16 Toshiaki Nishioka (17)
17 Robert Guerrero (19)
18 Lucian Bute (T23)
19 Kell Brook (New)
T20 Erik Morales (New)
T20 Humberto Soto (New)
T20 Brendon Rios (T23)
T23 Miguel Cotto (15)
T23 Lucas Matthyse (New)
25 Kazuto Ioka (New)

Legend: (previous ranking – 27th July 2011)

I expect some changes given some recent results.

d260005p wrote:But the point is that no fighter is going to turn down an opportunity full of cash from that sucker Bob Arum. He MADE Cotto fight at 145lbs other wise he would have been stripped of his title so he had to fight or lose it! De La Hoya was purely weight drained and was given no chance. Margarito was told to come in at 150lbs and not 154lbs which Margarito wanted, but was told NOT A CHANCE. But now Pacquiao is a recognized 8 weight world paper champ?

I know what your saying in that it only makes it fair and that the opposition dont have to fight, But when you have Bob Arum in the other corner calling the shots then it becomes a different ball game, hence the Pacman vs Mayweather negotiations always falling apart. Arum can not take the fact that Mayweather is THE best on the planet and that he technically calls the shots with regards to contractual obligations. IE. Drug Testing, Money Spilt, Date, Venue etc. Bob Arum just handpicks opponents, puts a catchweight on it, puts the fight on at a stupidly big arena and milks cash. People dont like that, including me. Like i have said though, if Pacman were to do ALL of the above such as Money Split, Venue, Date etc AND WAS TO PICK A LIVE opponent and the weight..............then id come out and sign his praises. But i think we all know that this is never going to happen. He will fight Marquez again then retire. Unless Bob Arum dissapears, he wont be fighting Mawyeather/Ortiz/Berto/Bradley anytime soon

Your making stuff up. De la Hoya botched his own weight and drained himself way below what was neccessary. Nobody knew he would make such a hash of it. He was a significant bookies favorite over Pacquiao going into the fight.

Mayweather is technically incorrect about the drug testing. He is the one trying to enforce rules that are not in place.

Your making out none of his opponents were live, fair play, dismiss his record if yu must. I see things differently and regard his wins over Cotto, Hatton, Margarito as impressive and dont believe the weight was a significant factor in them. They were tougher fights than Ortiz and Berto anyway. I guess it doesnt matter that Hatton was the best recognised fighter at 140, that Cotto and Margarito were much bigger men and agreed to Pacquiaos stipulations, that De la Hoya was the favourite going into fight with Pacquiao and that Mayweather was the one putting the additional drug testing demands in place. Its all Pacquiaos fault!

I agree with most of what you've said there Manos but a win over Margarito is far from impressive.

I think the win over Marg was impressive for a couple of reasons -

1.) Manner of victory
2.) Margarito weighed in like 170+ pounds on the night or something daft?

In light of the Mosely controversy all that Margarito had left was size which by itself doesn't mean an impressive win.

AlexHuckerby wrote:I think the win over Marg was impressive for a couple of reasons -

1.) Manner of victory
2.) Margarito weighed in like 170+ pounds on the night or something daft?

He was also made for a fighter like Manny. Coming of a long lay off and a beating from SSM.

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:I think the win over Marg was impressive for a couple of reasons -

1.) Manner of victory
2.) Margarito weighed in like 170+ pounds on the night or something daft?

He was also made for a fighter like Manny. Coming of a long lay off and a beating from SSM.

Being made for a fighter is hardly a fair reason to discount a win. I dont think he was neccessarily in any event. The enormous size advantage he held meant he was much more capable of walking and wearing Pacquiao down and there was a big chance Pacquiaos power would not be sufficient to hold him off. I thought the manner of the win in the circumstances was impressive anyhow.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:I think the win over Marg was impressive for a couple of reasons -

1.) Manner of victory
2.) Margarito weighed in like 170+ pounds on the night or something daft?

He was also made for a fighter like Manny. Coming of a long lay off and a beating from SSM.

Being made for a fighter is hardly a fair reason to discount a win. I dont think he was neccessarily in any event. The enormous size advantage he held meant he was much more capable of walking and wearing Pacquiao down and there was a big chance Pacquiaos power would not be sufficient to hold him off. I thought the manner of the win in the circumstances was impressive anyhow.

He was matched against Manny for various reasons. He was a name (notoriety). Came forward in straight lines. No fight in a year. Coming off a bad loss.

But Manny performed very well and did a number on him.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:I think the win over Marg was impressive for a couple of reasons -

1.) Manner of victory
2.) Margarito weighed in like 170+ pounds on the night or something daft?

He was also made for a fighter like Manny. Coming of a long lay off and a beating from SSM.

Being made for a fighter is hardly a fair reason to discount a win. I dont think he was neccessarily in any event. The enormous size advantage he held meant he was much more capable of walking and wearing Pacquiao down and there was a big chance Pacquiaos power would not be sufficient to hold him off. I thought the manner of the win in the circumstances was impressive anyhow.

He was matched against Manny for various reasons. He was a name (notoriety). Came forward in straight lines. No fight in a year. Coming off a bad loss.

But Manny performed very well and did a number on him.

Other than Mayweather, in which I think it takes two to tango, who has Pacquaio avoided? Margarito was selected because there werent a great many better options out there. Hes fought Marquez x 3, Morales x 3, Barrera x 2, Hatton, De la Hoya, Mosely, Cotto, Margarito across loads of weights in a 5/6 year period. Its hardly a case of him hand picking opponents. I get the impression if he had stayed at lightweight and just dominated there against divisional names he would actually be viewed by some as better than having pushed on and won these fights at higher levels in both weight and class.

His record isnt perfect but if it comes with these asterixes then most careers will surely have to come with an asterix or ten aswell?

Not so much the opposition but the manner in which he's won a few of his world titles Manos. David Diaz at lightweight was a joke as well as winning welterweight and light middleweight titles at catchweights, he simply isn't a legitimate 8 weight world champion. Have no issues with fighting Hatton or Cotto but the rest were fairly hand picked.

rowley wrote:Is it possible to rate both Manny and Floyd?

To answer your question Jeff, apparently not.

Unfortunately, Manny is in the "too good" and the "what have you done for me lately" phase of journalistic criticism. Essentially - all positive things that can be said about him, have been said about him. He's doing some charity work for those in aid of the typhoon? Yawn. Pass me a mince pie.

There is a clever way to appear "knowledgeable" (I must emphasise that it is only the appearance of knowledge, rather than its actual presence) - and that is to be a contrarian. It equals edgy, and this, in the mind of numbskulls, seems to equal progressive thought. Its substandard.

So for Manny, the first thing to do is to ignore every fight he had before Oscar. This rules out accepting that Barrera, Morales and Marquez I/II were impressive. Then dismiss making ODLH come down to fight at WW. Even though Oscar picked the weight and Manny was jumping up, ignoring the LWW division and further ignoring that Oscar was a heavy favourite going into the fight.
Then dismiss Hatton because he'd lost once before. (Using this logic, I have removed Duran from Hearns' roster of great wins.)
Then dismiss Cotto because he had to lose 2 extra pounds. I don't believe a title should have been on the line - but that's Arum and the commission to blame, not Manny. As it was, the fight was a good, exciting fight against one of the best welterweights of the last 10 years. Dismiss the win because Cotto had lost once before. (I've removed Hearns from Hagler's list of good wins as well in light of this progressive thinking)

Meanwhile, it is a criminal offence to apply the same level of scrutiny to Floyd's career at 147.

To try - we have the inept Baldi, the psychotic and unstable Judah, who had already lost all his tough fights and would go on to lose all his tough fights and still outboxed Floyd for 5 rounds. We have the already once retired Oscar, fresh off the back of 2 years of inactivity, in which time to prove his aptitude for the challenge he had beaten up a circus clown. We have the fabulous Hatton, that great 147lb fighter who was truly hopeless at anything higher than 140. We have a catchweight against Marquez that he couldn't be bothered to make a decades old Mosley and a psychotic, unstable and unproven Ortiz, who had beaten the equally unproven and untested Berto (already exposed as a hype job by Collazo).

The level of critical analysis I have applied there is unreasonable and unworkable - but if we're applying it to Manny's career, we have to apply it to Floyd's. Frankly, at this rate, there's hardly a fighter alive who is beyond criticism. Perhaps Wonjongkam - and only because he's reigning in a weak era.

Finally if we "put an asterisk" next to any catchweight wins - I trust we will remove:
Lavigne and Walcott, Gans and Nelson, Armstrong and Garcia, Oscar and Hopkins and Taylor and Pavlik II from the history books.

A shame, because some of those were history defining contests.

To return to the original point - it does seem impossible for some people to rate both men.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Not so much the opposition but the manner in which he's won a few of his world titles Manos. David Diaz at lightweight was a joke as well as winning welterweight and light middleweight titles at catchweights, he simply isn't a legitimate 8 weight world champion. Have no issues with fighting Hatton or Cotto but the rest were fairly hand picked.

I dont view him as this 8 weight champion either, it doesnt really bother me though as its just a kind of meaningless statistic in todays set up. Its not even relevant to the days when there were only 8 or 10 weight classes.

But in the majority of cases with his fights if you look around for a better alternative then its only really Mayweather that is a better opponent. Who was Margarito at 150 handpicked over? Berto or Ortiz? they are no more of a challenge in my view.

Berto in particular at the time would have been a far bigger challenge, Margarito had no reputation left after the hand wrap scandal and was very much seen as a sitting duck for any world level fighter.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Berto in particular at the time would have been a far bigger challenge, Margarito had no reputation left after the hand wrap scandal and was very much seen as a sitting duck for any world level fighter.

Do you think Berto at 147 would have been a bigger challenge than Margarito at 150? I wouldnt say so really.

With Margarito I think it was more down to it being an in house fight that made Arum more money and an easier promotion than it being down to less risk than other fights. If Berto was Top Rank the fight would have happened already I think.

Would agree that Berto would have perhaps been a better fight but that would have been at WW at Manny wouldn't have got his belt a LMW that he seemingly wanted. At LMW at the time I can't really remember who was the most reputable fighter but the WBO was open.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Berto in particular at the time would have been a far bigger challenge, Margarito had no reputation left after the hand wrap scandal and was very much seen as a sitting duck for any world level fighter.

Do you think Berto at 147 would have been a bigger challenge than Margarito at 150? I wouldnt say so really.

With Margarito I think it was more down to it being an in house fight that made Arum more money and an easier promotion than it being down to less risk than other fights. If Berto was Top Rank the fight would have happened already I think.

An undefeated Andre Berto or a recently beaten disgraced Antonio Margarito, it's a tough one but would have to go for Berto by a country mile.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Berto in particular at the time would have been a far bigger challenge

Berto, fresh off the back of a robbery against Collazo?

I've never been that sold on Berto as a fighter. has always struggled when pushed backwards, either by physicality or a decent and dominant jab. He'd put on a good display against Urango - but that's a fighter who wasn't effective higher than 140 pounds - ie a physically smaller man. You could argue that the Quintana fight was also a dominant display - but equally - it was a shadow of the Quintana that beat Pwilly first time out - and had already been battered by Cotto.

Margarito at 150 posed a challenge that I would have preferred to see rather than Berto at 147. Berto at 147 - I'd expect Manny to win. Marg at 150 and weight 160something on fight night - that was an interesting challenge.

In terms of "who was the man" at LMW - Foreman who was receiving some praise at the weight, Kirkland was in jail, Williams was tussling with Martinez and Cotto had just moved up. Outside of Martinez and Williams - Margarito provided a reasonable challenge.

Are people completely ignoring the fact Margarito was a proven cheat who had been whipped by Mosely, the same Mosely who people say wasn't a challenege to Mayweather? Struggle to see how that was a challenging fight in any shape or form.

Im not talking about how the fight ma have appeared. Im talking about it in real terms. Was Berto really all that much better than Margarito? I dont think, even now, Berto or Ortiz for example would be givens to beat Margarito. I dont think theres a massive difference in standard between them.

Beating a then unbeaten Berto might have looked better on paper but I would view Margarito at 150 as a slightly tougher fight overall.

Yes Berto was better than Margarito who by then was a nothing and think it's a disgrace that Pacquiao faced him.

I dont agree. I think Margarito was a slightly tougher prospect given the enormous size disparity on fight night. Berto isnt really all that special I dont see much difference in level between him and anyone else Pacquiao faced at welter really.

Don't really think that Berto is much of a skill difference of that of a Joshua Clottey, just has a more easy on the eye style.

Lets all ignore Margarito being a disgraced fighter.

What does being a disgraced fighter have to do with actual ability relative to Berto?

Mayweather is a jailed disgraced fighter who hit his wife and threatened his kids. Tyson was jailed for Cuddle in a bad way. There have been countless.

Cuddle in a bad way have to love the swear filter on this thing.

Manos you know as well as me those comparisons are ludicrous, being disgraced after trying to use illegal hand wraps does mean something in direct relation to boxing, Pacquiao should never have faced Margarito.

Tyson bit half a guys ear off in the ring and was suspended and nearly banned from boxing. Was Lewis a disgrace for fighting him?

Did Tysons actions threaten the life of Holyfield in the same way Margaritos did to Mosely, if you wish to overlook that then fair enough.

I dont see what relevance it has to whether or not Margarito was a tougher prospect than Berto. If you wish to overlook the actions of Tyson, Mayweather, Monzon etc then fair enough.

Can't actually believe what i'm reading hear, the whole of Margaritos career has a question mark next to it, suppose you think it was wrong to give Resto a lifetime ban?

Where are you getting these inferances from? Get a grip. I havent anywhere defended Margaritos action. Im saying that Margarito with a 25lb weight advantage on Pacquiao was every bit as tough a fight as Berto would have been. There no massive difference. Margarito wasnt hand picked to avoid Berto. It was because he was Top Rank and was an easier and more profitable promotion.

Your the one who always maintains that Margarito wasnt wearing wraps against Cotto in any event.

There's no proof he had illegal hand wraps against Cotto but we can't overlook the Mosely affair and make out he was a legitimate fight for anyone in the aftermath let alone Pacquiao. So do we give Fitzsimmons massive kudos for beating men like Dunkhorst who outweighed him by over 100lbs? Without ability to go with the weight advantage it doesn't mean anything. Wins over bigger men such as Hatton and Cotto mean something but against the likes of Clottey and a disgraced Margarito it does not.

In the Mosely fight he was snared with illegal wraps. I doubt he was mentally in great shape knowing he could potentially be banned for life afterwards.

I dont see what your point is. Are you saying you think Margarito did or didnt wear loaded wraps for many of his fights? I dont get how you can give Margarito the benfit of the doubt for clean wraps against Cotto and then turn around and say without ability weight means nothing as if the guy is a complete fraud.

With or without illegal wraps I think Margarito with a massive size advantage over Pacquiao is on a similar level of standard to Berto - who I think is decent but nothing special. I dont believe that Pacquiao ever hand picked Margarito in order to avoid somebody like Berto. I think it was just a case of in housing.

On a moral level I would object to Pacquiao giving Margarito a payday but it still doesnt take away from the fact I think the fight was as tough a prospect as what Berto would offer.

I have no idea as to which, when or how many fights Margarito may have had illegal wraps. Im not particularly inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. I dont think MArgarito is a great fighter, but neither is Berto. The two are of a similar enough level in my view.

I thought Pacquiaos performance against Margarito in light of the size disparity was impressive. Not a win for the ages, but I wouldnt readily dismiss it as irrelevant.

Margarito should have been banned for life the guy is a disgrace I reckon he had loaded gloves against Cotto look at his face at the end of the fight. Cotto destroyed Margarito in their rematch this shows what would have happened if Margarito was fighting fairly the first time. Lets not forget Margarito also made fun of Freddie Roaches illness which is the same as Alis the guy is a disgrace to boxing.

Is there not some rules about conversations going off topic.... good luck trying to sort through that nonsense to get lists.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:There's no proof he had illegal hand wraps against Cotto but we can't overlook the Mosely affair and make out he was a legitimate fight for anyone in the aftermath let alone Pacquiao. So do we give Fitzsimmons massive kudos for beating men like Dunkhorst who outweighed him by over 100lbs? Without ability to go with the weight advantage it doesn't mean anything. Wins over bigger men such as Hatton and Cotto mean something but against the likes of Clottey and a disgraced Margarito it does not.

Yes, Ghosty, we do.

Its not as simple as to say "they had no ability". If it was easy it would be done more often.

Oxy we see Fitzsimmons beating Dunkhorst for what it was, a win over an average fighter who's only advantage was size. I wouldn't even consider that a decent win let alone an impressive one.

Dunkhorst was just a very, very big man. He had not a single noteworthy victory on his record. Margarito at one point was one of the most avoided champions in boxing.

At one point but not at the point Pacquiao faced him, disgraced by previous wrong doings all he offered Pacquiao was an easy tilt at another world title.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:I think the win over Marg was impressive for a couple of reasons -

1.) Manner of victory
2.) Margarito weighed in like 170+ pounds on the night or something daft?

He was also made for a fighter like Manny. Coming of a long lay off and a beating from SSM.

Being made for a fighter is hardly a fair reason to discount a win. I dont think he was neccessarily in any event. The enormous size advantage he held meant he was much more capable of walking and wearing Pacquiao down and there was a big chance Pacquiaos power would not be sufficient to hold him off. I thought the manner of the win in the circumstances was impressive anyhow.

He was matched against Manny for various reasons. He was a name (notoriety). Came forward in straight lines. No fight in a year. Coming off a bad loss.

But Manny performed very well and did a number on him.

Other than Mayweather, in which I think it takes two to tango, who has Pacquaio avoided? Margarito was selected because there werent a great many better options out there. Hes fought Marquez x 3, Morales x 3, Barrera x 2, Hatton, De la Hoya, Mosely, Cotto, Margarito across loads of weights in a 5/6 year period. Its hardly a case of him hand picking opponents. I get the impression if he had stayed at lightweight and just dominated there against divisional names he would actually be viewed by some as better than having pushed on and won these fights at higher levels in both weight and class.

His record isnt perfect but if it comes with these asterixes then most careers will surely have to come with an asterix or ten aswell?

I'm not going to be silly and question his fights below 130lbs. But when it wa s proven that he could fight legitemately about 140, his opponents have had the style that made him look almost super-human. Plus they were names who were coming off a bad loss or were past it or drained. Also how many of them have been under 30 yrs of age?

The asterix imo are around the issue of being a world champ in 8 weights. Many have SRL as being a 5 weight champ. Not in my eyes. The LaLond fight was for the LHW and SMW title foight at SMW level. A joke.

Manny has had hand picked fighters put there to make him look good. I said after his clottey fight that a more active boxer would beat him because he has too many holes in his game. If he fights and loses to floyd, excuses that he was past it would be rasied. Pity it didn't happen earlier to leave no doubt. The test should have been taken.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:I think the win over Marg was impressive for a couple of reasons -

1.) Manner of victory
2.) Margarito weighed in like 170+ pounds on the night or something daft?

He was also made for a fighter like Manny. Coming of a long lay off and a beating from SSM.

Being made for a fighter is hardly a fair reason to discount a win. I dont think he was neccessarily in any event. The enormous size advantage he held meant he was much more capable of walking and wearing Pacquiao down and there was a big chance Pacquiaos power would not be sufficient to hold him off. I thought the manner of the win in the circumstances was impressive anyhow.

He was matched against Manny for various reasons. He was a name (notoriety). Came forward in straight lines. No fight in a year. Coming off a bad loss.

But Manny performed very well and did a number on him.

Other than Mayweather, in which I think it takes two to tango, who has Pacquaio avoided? Margarito was selected because there werent a great many better options out there. Hes fought Marquez x 3, Morales x 3, Barrera x 2, Hatton, De la Hoya, Mosely, Cotto, Margarito across loads of weights in a 5/6 year period. Its hardly a case of him hand picking opponents. I get the impression if he had stayed at lightweight and just dominated there against divisional names he would actually be viewed by some as better than having pushed on and won these fights at higher levels in both weight and class.

His record isnt perfect but if it comes with these asterixes then most careers will surely have to come with an asterix or ten aswell?

I'm not going to be silly and question his fights below 130lbs. But when it wa s proven that he could fight legitemately about 140, his opponents have had the style that made him look almost super-human. Plus they were names who were coming off a bad loss or were past it or drained. Also how many of them have been under 30 yrs of age?

The asterix imo are around the issue of being a world champ in 8 weights. Many have SRL as being a 5 weight champ. Not in my eyes. The LaLond fight was for the LHW and SMW title foight at SMW level. A joke.

Manny has had hand picked fighters put there to make him look good. I said after his clottey fight that a more active boxer would beat him because he has too many holes in his game. If he fights and loses to floyd, excuses that he was past it would be rasied. Pity it didn't happen earlier to leave no doubt. The test should have been taken.

Again hand picked. Hand picked over who? Who should he have fought? Cotto, Hatton, De la Hoya, Marquez these guys are hardly hand picked opponents. Outside of Mayweather there isnt a great deal of options at the weight that he hasnt already fought and beat. Berto and Ortiz are no better than the competition he has been facing in general. Hes a pretty active fighter so the odd Clottey in there is to be expected and is more a sign of lack of options than a steadfast refusal to face certain opponents.

I might agree and say hes avoided targetting guys like Martinez but no more so than Mayweather and with a valid reason.

What fighters should have been facing over the last few years that are better than what he did face?

Hand picked by Arum or Team Pac. Manny was hand picked by Oscar and blew the weight loss to make him a shell. As for the Cotto fight, good performance by Manny, but for me its the stips again.Hatton was a terrific pperformance no doubt.

There was Bradley at 140, Alexander, Ortiz, even Malignaggi...all live opponents without a need for stips. He would have beaten Alexander and Paulie with ease but Bradley would be a more difficult opponent but a win for Pac also. At least they were live and the best available atthe weight. But instead he chose bigger names and added stips to them. I will never agree to that as being legit. Likewise I discount the Floyd/JMM fight for that purpose.

Bradley, Malignaggi and Alexander? Over Hatton, De la Hoya and Cotto? Really? Nowhere near the same status or financial draw and certainly no better. How were they not live? If he had fought these guys you can garauntee he would be accused of avoiding somebody else then. Other than Mayweather, theres nobody significantly better that he should have faced. If hes accused of avoiding these guys then Mayweather should be crucified for not fight Margarito, Williams and Cotto in between his many retirements and semi retirements.

How was De la Hoya hand picking Pacquiao? He was taking on one of the best fighters in the world as he has done consistently his whole career. He botched the weight but that was neither here nor there when he was targetting Pacquiao who was basically the best available fight for him.

Manos before the fight would you really have considered Pacquiao to be the best fighter available at Welterweight, I certainly didn't,

manos de piedra wrote:Bradley, Malignaggi and Alexander? Over Hatton, De la Hoya and Cotto? Really? Nowhere near the same status or financial draw and certainly no better. How were they not live? If he had fought these guys you can garauntee he would be accused of avoiding somebody else then. Other than Mayweather, theres nobody significantly better that he should have faced. If hes accused of avoiding these guys then Mayweather should be crucified for not fight Margarito, Williams and Cotto in between his many retirements and semi retirements.

How was De la Hoya hand picking Pacquiao? He was taking on one of the best fighters in the world as he has done consistently his whole career. He botched the weight but that was neither here nor there when he was targetting Pacquiao who was basically the best available fight for him.

Not over them. As well as them. Why the clottey fight? Also fight Cotto at the correct weight. Why add stips if it doesn't give you an advantage? After Hatton he could have fought any of the LWW mentioned.

They were live because they were young, unbeaten and active. Not coming off a huge loss or weight drained and they were not come forward fighters who would stand there and be hit.

Of course as you say, its the finances and drawing power. But its an arument I dont support as at that time Pac was drawing huge numbers and the purse split would give the opponent a career high purse and Manny would still walk away with the same money. For me its about fighting names. The guys he fought were bigger names and less risky.

Oscar called out Pac, arranged the weight. Pac didn't call his out. He went for pac because he thought he could beat the little guy. He forgot about the weight though and that literally killed him. I was critical of Oscar for fighting essentially what I thought was a SFW.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Bradley, Malignaggi and Alexander? Over Hatton, De la Hoya and Cotto? Really? Nowhere near the same status or financial draw and certainly no better. How were they not live? If he had fought these guys you can garauntee he would be accused of avoiding somebody else then. Other than Mayweather, theres nobody significantly better that he should have faced. If hes accused of avoiding these guys then Mayweather should be crucified for not fight Margarito, Williams and Cotto in between his many retirements and semi retirements.

How was De la Hoya hand picking Pacquiao? He was taking on one of the best fighters in the world as he has done consistently his whole career. He botched the weight but that was neither here nor there when he was targetting Pacquiao who was basically the best available fight for him.

Not over them. As well as them. Why the clottey fight? Also fight Cotto at the correct weight. Why add stips if it doesn't give you an advantage? After Hatton he could have fought any of the LWW mentioned.

They were live because they were young, unbeaten and active. Not coming off a huge loss or weight drained and they were not come forward fighters who would stand there and be hit.

Of course as you say, its the finances and drawing power. But its an arument I dont support as at that time Pac was drawing huge numbers and the purse split would give the opponent a career high purse and Manny would still walk away with the same money. For me its about fighting names. The guys he fought were bigger names and less risky.

Oscar called out Pac, arranged the weight. Pac didn't call his out. He went for pac because he thought he could beat the little guy. He forgot about the weight though and that literally killed him. I was critical of Oscar for fighting essentially what I thought was a SFW.

How many guys is he expected to fight? Every guy that held a ranking in any of three divisions around him? Are the likes Malignaggi or Alexander really significant names missing from his record? Bradley has become more established in the last couple of years and Pacquiao may still yet fight him so will hold off on that one. But Alexander and Malignaggi are no better, in fact I would say they are worse, than the guys Pacquaio did fight. If he fights Bradley no doubt he will be avoiding Peterson and we may aswell add Zavek and Senchenko as other guys he avoided I guess.

Ultimately, there valid criticisms of Pacquaio which I accept. In fact I would accept most of the points made on here (not the Malignaggi/Alexander ones though). But the problem I have is that they seem to be blown out of proportion with regards his legacy or his standing or whatever it is you want to call it. Hes represented as almost a fraud when its not the case. It also seems to be a much higher level scrutiny applied to him than the norm. Its almost looking for reasons to mark him down. I think Mayweather is a better fighter but he definately seems to get an easier ride, partly because hes seen as better and partly because Pacquiao just seems to be unpopular in general in some quarters. I think in some ways if he fought Mayweather and lost he would actually have an easier time as people would just accept him more readily. As it is his unsettled rivalry with Mayweather seems to encourage a sort of honus to prove hes inferior by applying extreme scrutiny to his record.

After he fought Hatton, he went on to fight Cotto. No arguments there. Cotto was a good opponent. But the stips puts an asterix. After Cotto, he should have fought a live opponent in Bradley (unification fight) or any live opponent at his weight. Instead he fought Clottey. Never rated Clottey and was coming off a grueling loss. Why not Tim or any other live opponent? BTW the same applies to Floyd for not fighting Cotto.

My point is that many people hail Pac when he has never fought the best at the best's weight (save hatton). I am not questioning his record below SFW. I dont have to put Many down to boost Floyd. That is silly and childish. Strickly on the record above LW, it is very patchy and the only legit win imo was against Hatton.

Anymore top 15s to be contributed before I cast the results?

1 Floyd Mayweather Jr
2 Manny Pacquiao
3 Nonito Donaire
4 Sergio Martinez
5 Juan Manuel Marquez
6 Andre Ward Yuriorkis Gamboa
7 Wladimir Klistchko
8 Yuriorkis Gamboa
9 Pongsaklek Wongjongkam
10 Bernard Hopkins
11 Vitali Klitschko
12 Alverez
13 Cotto
14 Mares
15 Robert Guerrero

1 Floyd Mayweather Jr
2 Juan Manuel Marquez
3 Manny Pacquiao
4 Andre Ward
5 Sergio Martinez
6 Nonito Donaire
7 Wladimir Klistchko
8 Vitali Klitschko
9 Yuriorkis Gamboa
10 Timothy Bradley
11 Pongsaklek Wongjongkam
12 Toshiaki Nishioka
13 Bernard Hopkins
14 Robert Guerrero
15 Victor Ortiz