2011 Year end 606V2 P4P Top 15 (please submit VOTES!)

First topic message reminder :

It's time for the year-end 606V2 POUND FOR POUND Top 15 rankings.

Rules:
-Only 1 post per 606 member.
-Only active fighters allowed (must of fought in the last 12 months unless officially retired eg David Haye)
-Outlandish listing’s will be DQ.

Principles:
Your Top 15 should be based as at the current point in time.

Point Scoring System:
Quite simple, #1 scores 15 points, #2 scores 14 points etc… I will tally up the totals by the deadline date and will present the results (using my Excel wizardry).

NOTE: PLEASE TRY AND USE FULL NAMES & LIST NAMES!

For the record, the previous Top 15 606v2 P4P rankings as at 11th November 2011 was:

1 Floyd Mayweather Jr (5)
2 Manny Pacquiao (1)
3 Nonito Donaire (3)
4 Sergio Martinez (2)
5 Juan Manuel Marquez (4)
6 Yuriorkis Gamboa (7)
7 Wladimir Klistchko (6)
8 Pongsaklek Wongjongkam (9)
9 Andre Ward (12)
10 Carl Froch (10)
11 Giovanni Segura (14)
12 Amir Khan (11)
13 Bernard Hopkins (8)
14 Timothy Bradley (13)
15 Vitali Klitschko (16)


16 Toshiaki Nishioka (17)
17 Robert Guerrero (19)
18 Lucian Bute (T23)
19 Kell Brook (New)
T20 Erik Morales (New)
T20 Humberto Soto (New)
T20 Brendon Rios (T23)
T23 Miguel Cotto (15)
T23 Lucas Matthyse (New)
25 Kazuto Ioka (New)

Legend: (previous ranking – 27th July 2011)

I expect some changes given some recent results.

I just find it incredible that any world champion boxer who's faced some of the best of his generation can be viewed as a joke in comparison to anybody.

Modern fighters records are definitely under far more scrutiny than almost all older fighters. There are some exceptions like Marciano but that's a rarity and a can of worms that's best left shut.

Do think that in hindsight Marquez would have beaten Pacquiaos recent opposition but as it stands he hasn't but do think Marquez should be above him now as he's proven beyond doubt to be the better fighter of the two.

Is it possible to rate both Manny and Floyd?

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I just find it incredible that any world champion boxer who's faced some of the best of his generation can be viewed as a joke in comparison to anybody.

Modern fighters records are definitely under far more scrutiny than almost all older fighters. There are some exceptions like Marciano but that's a rarity and a can of worms that's best left shut.

I agree. When D4 was around I didnt really bother ever getting involved with the Pacquiao discussions as that was more or less his full time job. But I find myself bound to defend him more and more from stuff that I frankly dont understand. I dont get how he is so disliked by so many when he seems to be a genuinely decent person who provides quality fights. Hes been one of the best value fighters around this century yet there are some people that can barely find a good thing to say about him and rubbish his pretty impressive acheivements with regularity. It seems like liking or respecting Mayweather and Pacquiao is mutually exclusive for many people. I have time for both. I think Mayweather is the better boxer but Pacquiao is the more likeable guy and better entertainment overall.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Do think that in hindsight Marquez would have beaten Pacquiaos recent opposition but as it stands he hasn't but do think Marquez should be above him now as he's proven beyond doubt to be the better fighter of the two.

That's like saying Ken Norton proved beyond doubt he's superior to Ali. Would Pacquiao have left the Chris John fight up to the judges? He beat Barrera far more decisively than Marquez and beat world champions at higher weight classes. It's a sweeping statement to say he's beyond doubt the better fighter.

For me Marquez hasn't proven beyond doubt he's better than Pacquiao, is Junior Jones better than Barrera because he beat him? If you rate fighters like this you get Azania style ratings, and as we all know that is virtually nonsensical (We love you though Az)

Personally I dont think who is a better fighter can be based solely on a head to head. Marquez might have got the better of Pacquiao in their trilogy, or at least in the last fight, but everything else would be in Pacquiaos favour for me. Acheivements, opposition, wins etc

I know it's a sweeping comment but Marquez career has been derailed because of the first two Pacquiao fights, personally don't think the likes of De La Hoya, Hatton or Cotto would have wanted anything to do with Marquez. Very high risk but low reward compared to what they could earn, this all changes were he to have got a fair deal the first two times around, should have got the nod at least once.

Marquez has shown Pacquiao to have fundamental flaws to his game that he's never been able to overcome, not quite sure Norton did the same to a decidely past his best Ali.

Not to say Marquez isn't a great, for my money he most certainly is.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I know it's a sweeping comment but Marquez career has been derailed because of the first two Pacquiao fights, personally don't think the likes of De La Hoya, Hatton or Cotto would have wanted anything to do with Marquez. Very high risk but low reward compared to what they could earn, this all changes were he to have got a fair deal the first two times around, should have got the nod at least once.

Marquez has shown Pacquiao to have fundamental flaws to his game that he's never been able to overcome, not quite sure Norton did the same to a decidely past his best Ali.

Not for me, I can understand what you're saying however, Marquez was very unlucky not to get one of the decisions in the first two fights, but no robbery, heck if anyone can cry robbery it's Manny as he would have had both wins if the judges could add up correctly!!!

Obviously Marquez is a super talented fighter, but I think he would have possibly been too small and not fast enough to overcome someone like MArgarito, he was often troubled by much smaller men who coudl force him to fight in a more toe to toe manner, for me Marquez is a great but is maybe seen as something a little better than he is because he had the drop on Manny.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I know it's a sweeping comment but Marquez career has been derailed because of the first two Pacquiao fights, personally don't think the likes of De La Hoya, Hatton or Cotto would have wanted anything to do with Marquez. Very high risk but low reward compared to what they could earn, this all changes were he to have got a fair deal the first two times around, should have got the nod at least once.

Marquez has shown Pacquiao to have fundamental flaws to his game that he's never been able to overcome, not quite sure Norton did the same to a decidely past his best Ali.

There's a difference between deserving 1 out of 3 and proving he's superior. I'll concede that Ali was past his peak, but you say Marquez showed flaws Pacquiao never adapted to? Ali never adapted to Norton's ability to counter the jab.

Pacquiao because of his style would beat his opposition in more dynamic fashion than either Marquez or Mayweather but beat them they still both would. Sounds like i'm harsh on Pacquiao but as a massive Marquez fan it's so irritating seeing two career paths altered so much because of two fights.

Wonder how Marquez would have been rated had he won all of the fights Pacqiaou has won and then lost to Mayweather as emphatically as he did.

More highly than Pacquiao I would imagine, less shame in Mayweather having your number than Marquez for me.

Are we talking about Marquez being ahead of Pacquiao in the 'here and now' pound for pound rankings here, Ghosty, or all-time?

In the first scenario, I can half see the argument. If we were to say that current pound for pound standings are based solely on the last two years / four fights, then there's a very realistic argument for Marquez to be shading it, thought there's not all that much in it.

Not sure if you were suggesting that latter case (haven't read through all the comments yet), but in that case I would have to disagree massively. He may have the wood on Pacquiao, but Marquez's career doesn't really compare, very good though it's been.

The here and now Chris, putting him ahead on the all time list would have far too many ifs and buts, he should be ahead of him but unfortunately he will never get the plaudits his talent and desire deserve. In an era where defeats mean so much you can't underplay the effect the two Pacquiao losses and the draw will have had on his career but again that's changing history.

marquez isnt beyond doubt a better fighter, but as far as im concerned he won their last fight and deserves to be ahead of him in the pound for pound rankings at the current moment

AlexHuckerby wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Is that meant to sound impartial d?


You're calling world class fighters in Cotto and Clottey "jokes." Cotto's among the best welterweights of recent years and Clottey lost a disputed split to him, along with wins over guys like Judah.

Do you really think Marquez would've sawn through Cotto like that? Had Clottey totally unwilling to return fire and happy to last the distance? No way in my opinion.

This is my view also, fighters like Clottey are viewed upon as a jok in comparison to Manny Pacquaio, yet Cotto barely scraped past him at his "incredible" fully fledged 147 self, for me the fight wasn't a joke, obviously not a fight that will be discussed in his ATG status.

I look at it like this, and I don't mean no offence to some of the old timers, but let's say 60 or 70 years ago a guy came from Flyweight up all the way to welterweight and blew away 2 of the top welterweights on the planet at the time would that be viewed upon as a joke?

Lets all get off Pacquiao's nuts for a second. Joshua Clottey's past 10 fights have not been the most exciting. I wouldnt say Clottey was world class to be perfectly honest. He is or was a DECENT fighter around the top 10. But lets not make any excuses. Marquez, given, wouldnt paste Cotto the way Pacquiao did and i am not denying that. I simply stated he would do it in a different manner through counter punches and technical superiority. Pacman is a come forward fighter with NO DEFENSE. Clottey managed to mark him up and he only threw around 4 punches per round.

Cotto was also made to come in at 145 lbs as opposed to 147lbs for HIS OWN title otherwise he would have been stripped
Margarito was made to come in at 150lbs as opposed to 154lbs. Frankly a joke fight for a WBC crown.
De La Hoya was drained to under 150lbs for the first time in 7 years.

Had Pacquiao fought Cotto at the full 147lbs weight would it had made a difference? We wont ever know.
Had he fought De La Hoya at LMW would it had made a difference? Again, We wont ever know.

What i do think though, is that Marqeuz is just as good as, and if not BETTER, boxer then Pacquiao and should be rated higher.

Lets see Pacquiao fight someone young and fresh like Ortiz or Berto or maybe even Bradley.

If he can KO or paste some upcoming young gun with relative ease, AT THE RIGHT WEIGHT, then fair play, but judging by his performances against Mosley/Marquez it would make it interesting.

But knowing Arum, Pacman will fight Bradley at 150lbs and then fight Ortiz at 135lbs or something bizzare.

I dont think Marquez is or ever was a better boxer than Pacquiao. Hes a great counter puncher, but limited in his own way if made to force a fight or against outside fighters. Pacquiaos style suits Marquez but I would pick Pacquiao to fare better overall against a mixed variety of opponents across several weights. I think Pacquiao has established himself as the better fighter even withstanding the last robbery in the trilogy, and the other two encounters which were close.

manos de piedra wrote:I dont think Marquez is or ever was a better boxer than Pacquiao. Hes a great counter puncher, but limited in his own way if made to force a fight or against outside fighters. Pacquiaos style suits Marquez but I would pick Pacquiao to fare better overall against a mixed variety of opponents across several weights. I think Pacquiao has established himself as the better fighter even withstanding the last robbery in the trilogy, and the other two encounters which were close.

I think technically Marquez is a lot better the Pacquiao. Pacquiao has Speed and Power which is the absolute key moving up in weight, ESPECIALLY if you can keep it. Has Pacquiao fought a fleet footed fighter with decent movement and a bit of a punch at the weight in the past couple of years? No.

Dont get me wrong, i dont want to come across as a Pacquiao HATER, but i really think Marquez pips him in the P4P rankings today.
Marquez fought Pacman and won IMO, he fought Mayweather and lost convincingly. Who else could he face? I think he beats most if not everyone in the division at LWW/LW

d260005p wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Is that meant to sound impartial d?


You're calling world class fighters in Cotto and Clottey "jokes." Cotto's among the best welterweights of recent years and Clottey lost a disputed split to him, along with wins over guys like Judah.

Do you really think Marquez would've sawn through Cotto like that? Had Clottey totally unwilling to return fire and happy to last the distance? No way in my opinion.

This is my view also, fighters like Clottey are viewed upon as a jok in comparison to Manny Pacquaio, yet Cotto barely scraped past him at his "incredible" fully fledged 147 self, for me the fight wasn't a joke, obviously not a fight that will be discussed in his ATG status.

I look at it like this, and I don't mean no offence to some of the old timers, but let's say 60 or 70 years ago a guy came from Flyweight up all the way to welterweight and blew away 2 of the top welterweights on the planet at the time would that be viewed upon as a joke?

Lets all get off Pacquiao's nuts for a second. Joshua Clottey's past 10 fights have not been the most exciting. I wouldnt say Clottey was world class to be perfectly honest. He is or was a DECENT fighter around the top 10. But lets not make any excuses. Marquez, given, wouldnt paste Cotto the way Pacquiao did and i am not denying that. I simply stated he would do it in a different manner through counter punches and technical superiority. Pacman is a come forward fighter with NO DEFENSE. Clottey managed to mark him up and he only threw around 4 punches per round.

Cotto was also made to come in at 145 lbs as opposed to 147lbs for HIS OWN title otherwise he would have been stripped
Margarito was made to come in at 150lbs as opposed to 154lbs. Frankly a joke fight for a WBC crown.
De La Hoya was drained to under 150lbs for the first time in 7 years.

Had Pacquiao fought Cotto at the full 147lbs weight would it had made a difference? We wont ever know.
Had he fought De La Hoya at LMW would it had made a difference? Again, We wont ever know.

What i do think though, is that Marqeuz is just as good as, and if not BETTER, boxer then Pacquiao and should be rated higher.

Lets see Pacquiao fight someone young and fresh like Ortiz or Berto or maybe even Bradley.

If he can KO or paste some upcoming young gun with relative ease, AT THE RIGHT WEIGHT, then fair play, but judging by his performances against Mosley/Marquez it would make it interesting.

But knowing Arum, Pacman will fight Bradley at 150lbs and then fight Ortiz at 135lbs or something bizzare.

Is it not worth considering that Pacquiao being a former flyweight is actually the smaller guy in most of these fights and that catchweights actually made sense? Granted there shouldnt have been titles on the line for it but nobody forced these guys to take the fight and they were significantly bigger men. Three or four years ago if people had mentioned Pacquiao sharing a ring with the likes of Margarito, Cotto and De la Hoya they would have been thought of as crazy.

If you apply the level of scrutiny to Pacquiaos career as you are now then most other boxers become a laughing stock.

You see with Marquez I think if he fougth Khan or Bradley I would put Bradley as a bit of a pick'em but I think Khan would near enough shut him out, it's a style thing, Marquez just had Pacs number.

d260005p wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I dont think Marquez is or ever was a better boxer than Pacquiao. Hes a great counter puncher, but limited in his own way if made to force a fight or against outside fighters. Pacquiaos style suits Marquez but I would pick Pacquiao to fare better overall against a mixed variety of opponents across several weights. I think Pacquiao has established himself as the better fighter even withstanding the last robbery in the trilogy, and the other two encounters which were close.

I think technically Marquez is a lot better the Pacquiao. Pacquiao has Speed and Power which is the absolute key moving up in weight, ESPECIALLY if you can keep it. Has Pacquiao fought a fleet footed fighter with decent movement and a bit of a punch at the weight in the past couple of years? No.

Dont get me wrong, i dont want to come across as a Pacquiao HATER, but i really think Marquez pips him in the P4P rankings today.
Marquez fought Pacman and won IMO, he fought Mayweather and lost convincingly. Who else could he face? I think he beats most if not everyone in the division at LWW/LW

How come you have Khan above Peterson and Froch above Kessler in your rankings then?

In the current P4P for me it has to be JMM above Pac. Had the judges scored it correctly, he would officially be above Pac in the Ring rankings and most of us here. We seem to be going along with a laughable decision because 3 men scored it that way.

Pac's previous ventures in higher weights is no basis for ranking him above JMM also. What you are doing is penalising JMM not not having the physiology (or the nutrition PAc takes) to go up in weights and still be effective. If going upo in weights is the basis for P4P rankings them we should have Henry Armstrong as No 1 with Pac and Ali, and all other HWs at lower levels.

Pac did unbelievably well at higher weights regardless of the ridiculous stips added to give him an advantage and disadvantage the opponent. But that is irrelevant to JMM as he doesn;t have the physical make up to fight and compete above 145 (whatever weight that is).

Manos, its right in saying he has been amazing through his rapid increase in weight over the years. However, its the level of opposition he has faced at the specific weight which leads to my opinions. Arum has had picked opponents made for Pacquiao. Most fighters these days do it. But if he were to fight a full blown 147lbs Ortiz at the weight in a few months how to you think that would pan out?!

manos de piedra wrote:

d260005p wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I dont think Marquez is or ever was a better boxer than Pacquiao. Hes a great counter puncher, but limited in his own way if made to force a fight or against outside fighters. Pacquiaos style suits Marquez but I would pick Pacquiao to fare better overall against a mixed variety of opponents across several weights. I think Pacquiao has established himself as the better fighter even withstanding the last robbery in the trilogy, and the other two encounters which were close.

I think technically Marquez is a lot better the Pacquiao. Pacquiao has Speed and Power which is the absolute key moving up in weight, ESPECIALLY if you can keep it. Has Pacquiao fought a fleet footed fighter with decent movement and a bit of a punch at the weight in the past couple of years? No.

Dont get me wrong, i dont want to come across as a Pacquiao HATER, but i really think Marquez pips him in the P4P rankings today.
Marquez fought Pacman and won IMO, he fought Mayweather and lost convincingly. Who else could he face? I think he beats most if not everyone in the division at LWW/LW

How come you have Khan above Peterson and Froch above Kessler in your rankings then?

Froch above Kessler due to the activity in the ring and level of face opposition at the right weights. Khan is above Peterson because he is better Simple as that really.

Ortiz would be annihilated?

If your going to slate Pacquiao for actually moving up to a catchweight fight with someone like Margarito then you may aswell diminsh Marquez performance for making Pacquiao come down to a catchweight and put his WBO title on the line.

The catchweight stuff about Pacquiao is blown out of all proportions. I agree titles, as meaningless as they are these days, should not be on the line but as a guy who never weighs above 144lbs and began at flyweight I think fighting Cotto at 145 and Margarito at 150 is more than acceptable.

Le'ts not forget Cotto was at 140 for a large majority of his career and beat good fighters in Judah and others, he fought 5 pounds above that and never complained about struggling with the weight afterwards, mainly because I don't think he did at all. this whole he beat a "weightdrained" Cotto is complete nonsense.

manos de piedra wrote:If your going to slate Pacquiao for actually moving up to a catchweight fight with someone like Margarito then you may aswell diminsh Marquez performance for making Pacquiao come down to a catchweight and put his WBO title on the line.

The catchweight stuff about Pacquiao is blown out of all proportions. I agree titles, as meaningless as they are these days, should not be on the line but as a guy who never weighs above 144lbs and began at flyweight I think fighting Cotto at 145 and Margarito at 150 is more than acceptable.

Is it acceptable though? You can not simply step up in weight and just because your body does not take you there, simply tell the opposition to lose extra weight to meet his needs?! If he can not make 147 or 154 for the respective fights, then thats his risk, not the opponents. Why should the lose there titles and how can Pacquiao be classed as an 8 weight world champion including LMW when he didnt even fight at the weight? Its beyond me.

Its unfair. Thats like Amir Khan moving up from LWW, W, LMW, M, SMW then steppoing into Andre Ward and saying "Hey up! Put that title on the line or you will be stripped. Oh, and make sure you come in 5lbs lighter because im too small and its unfair!"

Errrrrrr no.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Le'ts not forget Cotto was at 140 for a large majority of his career and beat good fighters in Judah and others, he fought 5 pounds above that and never complained about struggling with the weight afterwards, mainly because I don't think he did at all. this whole he beat a "weightdrained" Cotto is complete nonsense.

I agree with that. I never said he was Weighdrained. I simply stated that had he been able to come in at 147lbs as opposed to 145lbs then would it had made a difference? We dont know. Plus i stated that it is unfair for his title to be on the line at a catchweight fight.

Alex, if 145 made absolutely zero difference then why make that stipulation beforehand?

Many thanks

Hey Coxy

d260005p wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Le'ts not forget Cotto was at 140 for a large majority of his career and beat good fighters in Judah and others, he fought 5 pounds above that and never complained about struggling with the weight afterwards, mainly because I don't think he did at all. this whole he beat a "weightdrained" Cotto is complete nonsense.

I agree with that. I never said he was Weighdrained. I simply stated that had he been able to come in at 147lbs as opposed to 145lbs then would it had made a difference? We dont know. Plus i stated that it is unfair for his title to be on the line at a catchweight fight.

We all agree that him having a title for a catchweight fight is ridiculous, however to take away the fight and label it as a joke or whatever is a bit of a joke in itself. It was still a man against what was pretty much a fully fledged Welterweight against a guy who a couple of years back was facing guys at SFW. To take away that achievement because of a couple of pounds is just wrong.

d260005p wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:If your going to slate Pacquiao for actually moving up to a catchweight fight with someone like Margarito then you may aswell diminsh Marquez performance for making Pacquiao come down to a catchweight and put his WBO title on the line.

The catchweight stuff about Pacquiao is blown out of all proportions. I agree titles, as meaningless as they are these days, should not be on the line but as a guy who never weighs above 144lbs and began at flyweight I think fighting Cotto at 145 and Margarito at 150 is more than acceptable.

Is it acceptable though? You can not simply step up in weight and just because your body does not take you there, simply tell the opposition to lose extra weight to meet his needs?! If he can not make 147 or 154 for the respective fights, then thats his risk, not the opponents. Why should the lose there titles and how can Pacquiao be classed as an 8 weight world champion including LMW when he didnt even fight at the weight? Its beyond me.

Its unfair. Thats like Amir Khan moving up from LWW, W, LMW, M, SMW then steppoing into Andre Ward and saying "Hey up! Put that title on the line or you will be stripped. Oh, and make sure you come in 5lbs lighter because im too small and its unfair!"

Errrrrrr no.

I already stated that titles should not be on the line. Other than that, I see no issue with catchweights. Margarito is sizeably bigger than Pacquiao. Ive no problem with them coming to an agreement to find a balance in order to make the fight happen. Why shouldnt they?

Why do people complain about Pacquiao moving up to fight Margarito for a title at a catchweight but say nothing about Marquez doing the exact same thing? The principle is the same.

Alex, Cotto moved up to light middleweight straight after the Pacquiao fight because wait for it, he was struggling to make the Welterweight limit.

coxy0001 wrote:Alex, if 145 made absolutely zero difference then why make that stipulation beforehand?

Many thanks

I never said it made zero difference it made it easier for Manny and was possibly a fallback considering Manny a couple of years previously had been fighting at SFW just in case Manny couldn't actually make the weight, ever think this was a possibility?

AlexHuckerby wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Alex, if 145 made absolutely zero difference then why make that stipulation beforehand?

Many thanks

I never said it made zero difference it made it easier for Manny and was possibly a fallback considering Manny a couple of years previously had been fighting at SFW just in case Manny couldn't actually make the weight, ever think this was a possibility?

What difference does 145lbs have to 147lbs then, he only has to be under the limit not over any limit.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Alex, Cotto moved up to light middleweight straight after the Pacquiao fight because wait for it, he was struggling to make the Welterweight limit.

Never saw anything that said that, but it was most probably also because there was nothing there left at 147 for him aside from a possible Mayweather fight that would never happen. There was and still is a million opportunities at LMW for him. Where did you read he moved up because of the weight limit? And if so, I'm not really sure that that's actually true.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Alex, if 145 made absolutely zero difference then why make that stipulation beforehand?

Many thanks

I never said it made zero difference it made it easier for Manny and was possibly a fallback considering Manny a couple of years previously had been fighting at SFW just in case Manny couldn't actually make the weight, ever think this was a possibility?

What difference does 145lbs have to 147lbs then, he only has to be under the limit not over any limit.

You're right that was nonsensical.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Alex, Cotto moved up to light middleweight straight after the Pacquiao fight because wait for it, he was struggling to make the Welterweight limit.

Never saw anything that said that, but it was most probably also because there was nothing there left at 147 for him aside from a possible Mayweather fight that would never happen. There was and still is a million opportunities at LMW for him. Where did you read he moved up because of the weight limit? And if so, I'm not really sure that that's actually true.

It was documented all over that he felt he could no longer effectively make the welterweight limit so moved up in weight, the big fights were and still are at 147lbs not 154lbs for him.

Even still though Manas. You say you have no problem with Pacquiao fighting opponents bigger then him and having a catchweight involved to make it fairer. Thats not the point. The point is that that is not actually fair on people who campaign at that weight. If pacman can only get to be effective at 144lbs for example, and he wants to be crowned 154lbs champ, then fight someone who is 154lbs? Thats fair is it not? Plus, the catchweight fight for Pacman vs Marquez was actually offered by Top RANK and not Marquez. Marquez asked to bring it down to 142lbs as he knew Pacquiao could campaign at that weight and still be effective. He never once prompted a catchweight. Arum did this AND made the title on the line because he thought Pacman would blow him away easily no matter what he says. But that never happened as we all know

d260005p wrote:Even still though Manas. You say you have no problem with Pacquiao fighting opponents bigger then him and having a catchweight involved to make it fairer. Thats not the point. The point is that that is not actually fair on people who campaign at that weight. If pacman can only get to be effective at 144lbs for example, and he wants to be crowned 154lbs champ, then fight someone who is 154lbs? Thats fair is it not? Plus, the catchweight fight for Pacman vs Marquez was actually offered by Top RANK and not Marquez. Marquez asked to bring it down to 142lbs as he knew Pacquiao could campaign at that weight and still be effective. He never once prompted a catchweight. Arum did this AND made the title on the line because he thought Pacman would blow him away easily no matter what he says. But that never happened as we all know

I agree with you that you shouldnt be allowed fight for a title at catchweight. But outside of that what is the issue? Two fighters agree to fight at a certain weight limit. Margarito didnt have to take the fight. He was a far bigger man so the catchweight is only fair if they want to make the fight happen. Leaving titles aside I dont have problem with fighters agreeing to fight at their own limit of choice, especially in obvious cases where one fighter is alot bigger and certain evening of the weight is fair.

The weight made no difference in the Marquez fight, but the principle is the same as what happened in Pacquiao and Margarito. Marquez moved up to fight at a catchweight with Pacquiaos title on the line, just as Pacquiao did against Margarito.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Alex, Cotto moved up to light middleweight straight after the Pacquiao fight because wait for it, he was struggling to make the Welterweight limit.

Never saw anything that said that, but it was most probably also because there was nothing there left at 147 for him aside from a possible Mayweather fight that would never happen. There was and still is a million opportunities at LMW for him. Where did you read he moved up because of the weight limit? And if so, I'm not really sure that that's actually true.

It was documented all over that he felt he could no longer effectively make the welterweight limit so moved up in weight, the big fights were and still are at 147lbs not 154lbs for him.

Who was a big fight for him at 147 aside from Floyd? Obviously Cotto generates headlines as he is a big fighter and can make a fight agaisnt general World level opponents sound entertaining but the rematch with Marg was the main one and that was at 154, they got him a title at 154 at got him that fight.

They could have got him at 147lbs if they wanted, Margarito moved to light middleweight in pursuit of Cotto, not the other way round.

But the point is that no fighter is going to turn down an opportunity full of cash from that sucker Bob Arum. He MADE Cotto fight at 145lbs other wise he would have been stripped of his title so he had to fight or lose it! De La Hoya was purely weight drained and was given no chance. Margarito was told to come in at 150lbs and not 154lbs which Margarito wanted, but was told NOT A CHANCE. But now Pacquiao is a recognized 8 weight world paper champ?

I know what your saying in that it only makes it fair and that the opposition dont have to fight, But when you have Bob Arum in the other corner calling the shots then it becomes a different ball game, hence the Pacman vs Mayweather negotiations always falling apart. Arum can not take the fact that Mayweather is THE best on the planet and that he technically calls the shots with regards to contractual obligations. IE. Drug Testing, Money Spilt, Date, Venue etc. Bob Arum just handpicks opponents, puts a catchweight on it, puts the fight on at a stupidly big arena and milks cash. People dont like that, including me. Like i have said though, if Pacman were to do ALL of the above such as Money Split, Venue, Date etc AND WAS TO PICK A LIVE opponent and the weight..............then id come out and sign his praises. But i think we all know that this is never going to happen. He will fight Marquez again then retire. Unless Bob Arum dissapears, he wont be fighting Mawyeather/Ortiz/Berto/Bradley anytime soon

NOTE THAT IT WAS AT 154 AND NOT 150

I've always said that there should be an asterix next to Pac's name. He is physically able to climb weights and increase power.....something no other boxer has done to his extent. But the weight stips will be written out of history and it will show that he climbed from Flyweight to SWW and won titles there.

History will also show thta he defeated JMM when they fought which I believe is wrong as the judges in the eyes of most independant observers got al least 2 of those decisions wrong. Had the judges scored them correctly, would Pac be rated so highly? I doubt it. Many have him in the top 25 ATG. Not for me. Over the past decade he has been in Floyd's shadow who is a legit top 20 ATG.

His record above SFW is a masterstroke of brilliant match making.

azania wrote:I've always said that there should be an asterix next to Pac's name. He is physically able to climb weights and increase power.....something no other boxer has done to his extent. But the weight stips will be written out of history and it will show that he climbed from Flyweight to SWW and won titles there.

History will also show thta he defeated JMM when they fought which I believe is wrong as the judges in the eyes of most independant observers got al least 2 of those decisions wrong. Had the judges scored them correctly, would Pac be rated so highly? I doubt it. Many have him in the top 25 ATG. Not for me. Over the past decade he has been in Floyd's shadow who is a legit top 20 ATG.

His record above SFW is a masterstroke of brilliant match making.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:They could have got him at 147lbs if they wanted, Margarito moved to light middleweight in pursuit of Cotto, not the other way round.

It was "well documented" that Margarito was strugglign with the 147 weight limit on the Cotto fight. And Margarito first fought at LMW first so surely that can't be right...