Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

Well it gives experience to a lot of players.
But do the fans appreciate such disruption & consequently disjointed performances-I suspect not.
But with no pressure of relegation the requirement to win isn't as acute as in other leagues & therefor the games often lack intensity.
The Rabo enables therefor players to be more rested for the Heinekin & Internationals.
It seems to work for the Irish Provinces.

But for me the straight answer to your post is no.

It works because it makes it easier to introduce youngsters to senior rugby and that can only be good for the international side.

It is a serious competition in that although teams may seem to take the urine and occasionally field a weaker side they do in a calculated manner. Their aim is still to make the playoffs. In Ulster's case this was a tactical maneuver. Their record against Leinster is rubbish so they decided they had nothing to lose by fielding a young side and their record against Munster is pretty decent so they aimed to win that one. With only four days between matches I think they made these decisions because they take the rabbo seriously. Otherwise why field such a strong side today?

Maybe some teams never take it seriously, I don't know. But I doubt it. How many teams in the rabbo have a chance of winning or even progressing in the h cup? The rabbo is their best shot at winning something or at least reaching the finals.

As for Munster between injuries and absences of the Irish internationals this team was actually the best they had.

Cymroglan wrote:It works because it makes it easier to introduce youngsters to senior rugby and that can only be good for the international side.

It isn't working though. Haven't you read the news about attendances and all that?

Intotouch wrote:

As for Munster between injuries and absences of the Irish internationals this team was actually the best they had.

Were O'Connell and O'Gara unavailable or were they injured?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:It works because it makes it easier to introduce youngsters to senior rugby and that can only be good for the international side.

It isn't working though. Haven't you read the news about attendances and all that?

So is this article about attendances ? if it is then why include the Irish sides.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

As for Munster between injuries and absences of the Irish internationals this team was actually the best they had.

Were O'Connell and O'Gara unavailable or were they injured?

they were at a 2 day Ireland training camp.

The league is an absolute must for player development. Dissappointing at times that supporters dont get to see full teams out but thats just the reality of small player pools for International teams.

There was a reason the Scarlets fielded the side they did - the players that didn't play are either injured or played 4 days ago and are knackered - it was the strongest side they could put out and was pretty decent - Maule and Warren have played very well either this season or last, Fenby is a decent ML standard back 3 player, North came off the bench, we have 3 FB's injured in Stoddart, Liam W and Evans, and Priestland needed a rest after all the int duty and Wellies pulled out coz of injury, Knoyle is out so it was a choice between Rhodri or G Davies who played 4 days ago. Turnbull played, Murphy has shown up well and is offering serious competition to Morgan and Edwards is prob our best out and out 7. Timani offers a lot of physicality at 2nd row and Day is one of our main locks. Then in the front row we had 2 internationals and John as Iestyn is out and Rhodri needed a rest.

So it was the a pretty decent side and we'd have struggled to make it much better.

The reason for the teams chopping and changing their sides isn't coz they don't value the Pro12 but because the rugby season is all over the place and the players play far too much rugby, as such the teams need to bring through youngsters to cover when their ints are away, and the internationals need a rest when they come back from int duty.

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:It works because it makes it easier to introduce youngsters to senior rugby and that can only be good for the international side.

It isn't working though. Haven't you read the news about attendances and all that?

So is this article about attendances ? if it is then why include the Irish sides.

I was addressing you since you were obviously Welsh and as you must know, it aint working in Wales.

You could use that argument to say that the Heineken cup isn't working for the Welsh regions as we have generally poor attendances for those games as well, in comparison to the other teams in the comp. - you could say the HC ain't working in Wales so it can't be a serious competition for the Welsh teams

There was no mention of attendances in your thread. Your question was is the Rabo a serious competition.
To me the regions are just feeder clubs to the international sides and since 2005 we have won two Grand Slams and finished fourth in the recent world cup so we must be doing something right.
As for attendances well I travel down on a regular basis I'm doing my bit but there is clearly a problem with attendances.
This suggestion that the Blues gate will increase dramatically by moving to the Arms Park is just wishful thinking people either follow rugby or they don't, I for one think the move will alienate the Blues

BlueMuff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

As for Munster between injuries and absences of the Irish internationals this team was actually the best they had.

Were O'Connell and O'Gara unavailable or were they injured?

they were at a 2 day Ireland training camp.

The league is an absolute must for player development. Dissappointing at times that supporters dont get to see full teams out but thats just the reality of small player pools for International teams.

A 2 day training camp? Seriously?
In the middle of the Irish head to heads in the Rabo? Haha!!!

Glad you agree it's a must for player development coz that's all it is really and miles away from being equal to an English/French league.
Those Irish boys, along with the selected Welsh, should be fresh as a daisy come 6N's time.

Why isnt it serious. Can player development and a serious tournament not coexist.

Cardiff Dave wrote:
A 2 day training camp? Seriously?
In the middle of the Irish head to heads in the Rabo?

It serves two purposes; gives players a break so that they are fresh for the Heineken Cup and allows the national coaches to further their designs on the Six Nations trophy...

It happens every year now as well.

Welsh players fresh as a daisy? R u having a laugh?

By the time the 6N comes around the welsh players will have had a intense training camp in poland which was so physical it injured some of them. They then played 3 warm up games before playing a full whack of games in the wc, they then had a few weeks recovery before being chucked back into the pro12 before being chucked into an international again then playinghigh intensity double header HC Games then the Welsh derbies and then maybe a rest before more Pro12 and HC games and then are chucked into the Welsh camp for the 6Ns.

The irish players with central contracts will be managed a bit better because the IRU ensures they get rested throughoit the season - which is probably why the irish teams didnt have many internationals in.

red_stag wrote:Why isnt it serious. Can player development and a serious tournament not coexist.

No problem with developing players, we have the LV for that, but fielding a side that has no chance of winning is a bit different and it happens all of the time in the Rabo which makes a total mockery of the league, therefore it isn't a serious tournament.
Did Bayonne rest Mike Philips tonight away against Toulouse? No. He played. Why?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Welsh players fresh as a daisy? R u having a laugh?

By the time the 6N comes around the welsh players will have had a intense training camp in poland which was so physical it injured some of them. They then played 3 warm up games before playing a full whack of games in the wc, they then had a few weeks recovery before being chucked back into the pro12 before being chucked into an international again then playinghigh intensity double header HC Games then the Welsh derbies and then maybe a rest before more Pro12 and HC games and then are chucked into the Welsh camp for the 6Ns.

The irish players with central contracts will be managed a bit better because the IRU ensures they get rested throughoit the season - which is probably why the irish teams didnt have many internationals in.

So well prepared and "fresh" for team Wales games then. Excellent. I'm so happy.

Did bayonne play phillips 4 days earlier? Also do bayonne get money from the wru in return for managing the welsh internationals? No but the welsh regions do (and the irish and scots sides do from their unions)

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Welsh players fresh as a daisy? R u having a laugh?

By the time the 6N comes around the welsh players will have had a intense training camp in poland which was so physical it injured some of them. They then played 3 warm up games before playing a full whack of games in the wc, they then had a few weeks recovery before being chucked back into the pro12 before being chucked into an international again then playinghigh intensity double header HC Games then the Welsh derbies and then maybe a rest before more Pro12 and HC games and then are chucked into the Welsh camp for the 6Ns.

The irish players with central contracts will be managed a bit better because the IRU ensures they get rested throughoit the season - which is probably why the irish teams didnt have many internationals in.

So well prepared and "fresh" for team Wales games then. Excellent. I'm so happy.

Sorry who is ''well prepared and fresh'?

I suggest look forward not backwards.or at Eng or Fra. Certajn Pro 12 games are marquee events - see 50000 people at the Irish derby this season or 26000 turn up to Munster v Ospreys. Other games are more development orientated. Its same as any league really.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Did bayonne play phillips 4 days earlier? Also do bayonne get money from the wru in return for managing the welsh internationals? No but the welsh regions do (and the irish and scots sides do from their unions)

I don't know actually, but he played tonight and it was an away game.
What money do the rejuns get that isn't theirs in the first place?
Hope where not going to get too technical as my original point was that the Rabo is Poopie and tonight's games proved it.

I think its a shame that full strength, or near full strength sides are not consistently played during the holiday periods. A lot of people are paying to see great holiday entertainment and top quality Rugby. These matches are supposed to be showcases. Teams can never play their best players all the time, but I think this takes advantage of the fans and are simply bad decisions.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Sorry who is ''well prepared and fresh'?

The teams that rest there top players from meaningless league games in preparation for the HEC and 6 Nations I reckon ie not the English or the French.

Cardiff dave each region gets 1.5m a year plus money for the academies and player development. My point about bayonne/4 games was that if our regions hadnt had such important games in close proximity then im sure they would have playd the ints.

I agree with dr grey that we really need to sort out the season and stop playing so many internationals

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Sorry who is ''well prepared and fresh'?

The teams that rest there top players from meaningless league games in preparation for the HEC and 6 Nations I reckon ie not the English or the French.

So u think the perfect way to stay well prepared and fresh is to play high intensity rugby almost non stop for 8 months like the welsh player have done? - Intteresting as just my opinion but I would have thought that would have left the playerss shattered, fatigued, off the pace and picking up niggling injuries, though thats just me.

Bear in mind that there was a World Cup, 4 rounds of Heineken Cup and the 6 Nations kicks off in 1 month. Players need their rest.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Sorry who is ''well prepared and fresh'?

The teams that rest there top players from meaningless league games in preparation for the HEC and 6 Nations I reckon ie not the English or the French.

So u think the perfect way to stay well prepared and fresh is to play high intensity rugby almost non stop for 8 months like the welsh player have done? - Intteresting as just my opinion but I would have thought that would have left the playerss shattered, fatigued, off the pace and picking up niggling injuries, though thats just me.

Uh?

red_stag wrote:Bear in mind that there was a World Cup, 4 rounds of Heineken Cup and the 6 Nations kicks off in 1 month. Players need their rest.

Not sure what that has got to do with anything. The point is whether the Rabo is a serious competition or not. Munster fielding a 3rd string side tonight goes some way to show it isn't.

But because of the injuries - the IRU central contracted players (which the IRU decided to take on a training camp/to rest) and the no of games played in a short period of time and the fact that they'd played all the above games (ie WC, 4 HEC games and with an on coming 6N) they needed a rest.

And in my point previous to that I said the Welsh players won't be rested or well prepared or fresh because they've been playing almost constantly for 8 months. - you said that besides the French and English all the players would be well prepared and fresh going into the 6N

Smirnoffpriest wrote:But because of the injuries - the IRU central contracted players (which the IRU decided to take on a training camp/to rest) and the no of games played in a short period of time and the fact that they'd played all the above games (ie WC, 4 HEC games and with an on coming 6N) they needed a rest.

And in my point previous to that I said the Welsh players won't be rested or well prepared or fresh because they've been playing almost constantly for 8 months. - you said that besides the French and English all the players would be well prepared and fresh going into the 6N

I am sure there will be many Welsh and Irish miraculous recoveries in the following weeks and most will be right as rain come 6N's time.

So you don't think any of the players will be 'a little tired' or that they were too tired to play two games in 4 days (or 5 in the Ospreys case)? You just seem to think they took the time off just because they thought the Pro12 wasn't worth the effort - but then the teams played full strength sides the week before so not sure if thats the case.

I reiterate my point that playing a full 8 months of rugby going into the 6N isn't the best preparation and would be suprised if most players are 'right as rain' - especially as Knoyle, Charteris and AWJ already have serious injuries

To be honest i don't think its a serious competition. There's never any intensity in it unless Leinster or Munster are playing.
For example look at Scarlets v Ospreys last week it was pathetic, it didn't look like the players cared. The silly mistakes and knock ons the teams make are so stupid and theres hardly ever any fluidity in the play. The only matches i watch now are games with Munster or Leinster in them because at least you know the other team will bring a little intensity to the game.
As much as i like player development id like to have a competitive league to watch.No wonder the attendances are down and the basically all the teams are losing money.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

red_stag wrote:Bear in mind that there was a World Cup, 4 rounds of Heineken Cup and the 6 Nations kicks off in 1 month. Players need their rest.

Not sure what that has got to do with anything. The point is whether the Rabo is a serious competition or not. Munster fielding a 3rd string side tonight goes some way to show it isn't.

Cardif Dave I have some sympathy with your argument. As a supporter I do feel short changed that I dont get to see the best Munster players pley week in week out. And this years Christmas Inter pros have definitely weakended the Pro 12. Will I be as likely to go pay hard earned money to watch a third string team? Probably not.

However as I said earlier that fact of the matter is that Ireland Wales and Scotland only have a handfull of teams to pick players from for International. Then there is the HC. Quiet simply players cannot play everything.

As previously pointed out Pro 12 games can attract sell outs and regularly do. The play offs to me have added the extra bite and ensures that teams towards the end do field full strenght teams. Unfortunately that cant be managed all year round and some games do suffer.

I think the number of games Irish internationals can play in the Rabo is capped for their own welfare and to make sure they are in peak physical condition for the really important rugby, Heineken Cup and International.

There are only so many games players can play. There are too many games in the Pro 12 for it to be competitive all the time but this allows young players to step up so it's working very well for everyone.

I don't understand this argument about players, as a fan I'm happy to stump up to watch the next generation of Ulster greats as well as the internationals. I enjoy seeing the younger players get their chance in the league and I enjoy supporting my team.

The point is though that the competition isnt taken that seriously by the Unions or the clubs.

yes players need resting and yes its for the good of the national side but that is at the expense of the Robocop as a serious competition. This is one reason why the playoffs are a good thing, it allows clubs to go full out in the HC and be servile to their Unions without completely ruining their chances of winning the league. They also ensure that the league is won by the best full strength sides slogging it out in full intensity showpiece games.
Its exactly the same for the other euro club leagues.

The Scarlets Dragons Game should have been played on Bank Holiday Monday (2nd Jan). It would have attracted a bumper crowd and two strong sides.

Whilst the Blues and Ospreys are struggling with attendances at their Soccer stadiums. The Scarlets have attracted nearly 28,000 supporters to their last two home games. Thats 28,000 out of a possible 30,000. Can't do much better that that can they?

Notch wrote:I think the number of games Irish internationals can play in the Rabo is capped for their own welfare and to make sure they are in peak physical condition for the really important rugby, Heineken Cup and International.

So, you agree with the post then, that the Pro12 is not so important? If the Heineken Cup and Internationals are the really important Rugby, then what is the Pro12? And why does it seem different than the Top 14 and the Premeirship, who have many of the same challenges?

Look, we all know players cannot give it a go for a full season under almost any circumstances. Simply too many matches. This continues to be a major problem in the Rugby calendar. And that need to be gutted from stem to stern. And a number of untouchable or sacred points are going to have to change.

The point, though, about the holiday derbies, is whether full strength sides show up or not. It must have been somewhat nice for Leinster fans to see their team demolish an understrength Ulster side. Then for the Ulster fans to see them beat down a Munster 2nd team. If fans want this, I suppose that's OK. But it seems to me the holiday derbies should be big time competitive matches.

i think it is important. We need to get players ready for these competitions. You don't just rock up to a test or a Heineken Cup group game in peak condition. If we didn't have the Pro 12 we wouldn't be able to do as well in these competitions.

But mainly the two holiday matches are the exception to the norm. They fall between the 4th and 5th Round of the Heineken Cup and are only a few days apart. I can guarantee you won't see as weak a team again this season from Ulster and probably not from Munster either.

The reason for the difference between the Pro 12 and France and England is a question of power; over there the clubs have the power, over here the Unions have it. The IRFU is not going to let its centrally contracted players play 2 games back to back over a week at Christmas, thats just the way it is. The rich owner of a club in England or France will make the stars turn out whatever.

I still desperately want to do well in the league but its more meaningful to do well in Europe. Beating the Scarlets when Wales are playing Australia the same weekend or beating Munster during an Irish training camp just doesn't mean as much as the wins we've had over the likes of Clermont or Biarritz in 2011.

I agree, the IRFU knew exactly what they were doing when they scheduled thier Ireland 2-day training holiday get away, which I think cheats the fans who show up in droves for the holiday fixtures. How do you think Saracens fans or Harlequins fans would react to arriving in Twickenham to see second rate teams? Frankly, I want my best players on display in front of the largest crowds, and rest them later. This helps grow Rugby. Besides, when I grew up, these matches were events, not something less.

In England there is a limit on the total number of matches players can suit up for as well. So there is a lot in common, but I think there is more balance between the clubs and the RFU.

The bottom line, I think, is this continues to highlight how the Rugby calendar needs significant change.

.

Well smaller budgets full of home grown players who have legal and financial obligations that relate to their Region/provinces national union give different selectorial objectives...

I'd say yes it most certainly is a serious league, but there are objectives that curtail to a national unions wishes that must be satisfied for the good of everyone.

What i think is a silly argument is the one about promotion and relegation being key. Promotion and relegation effects so few clubs in any major leagues that have it.

doctor_grey wrote:
The bottom line, I think, is this continues to highlight how the Rugby calendar needs significant change

Couldn't agree more, this year has exemplified the ridiculousness of what we have. If we keep the current chaos of a fixture list we will be lucky if we are even vaguely competitive with the top SH teams in the next few years.

Are people seriously claiming that the top teams in England and France will always pick their best XV. Thats just naive.

red_stag wrote:Are people seriously claiming that the top teams in England and France will always pick their best XV. Thats just naive.

Not remotely, laddie. You are right, that would be very naive - and I don't think there are many simple people here.

Speaking for myself only, I said the Premeirship and Top 14 seem to carry the intensity more consistently than in the Pro12. And certainly appear to not be putting out 2nd teams for the holiday matches so the fans can truly enjoy their holiday Rugby. After all, who pay everyone's salary? We do.

doctor_grey wrote:After all, who pay everyone's salary?

A mix of TV advertisers and National Unions

If you believe the IRFU, the people who turn out for internationals in Dublin and buy the Ireland team merchandise generate most of their revenue- they argue that the national side is subsidising the provinces and is therefore of paramount importance. Thats their entire argument; the provinces don't get generate as much income and cost more to run. Even then the Heineken Cup TV rights are much more valuable than the Pro 12...

So if it comes down to economics the priorities of teams in the Pro 12 are going to lose because as a business they need to keep the O'Connells, O'Briens and Bests of this world fresh and primed for the test match arena.

Also worth remembering England.and France are larger with more teams so losing internationals is spread across all teama. I can see the Pro 12 ending up in conferences in the long run. Local games attract highest crowds. So the Welsh play each other and then the best plays thr best Iriah, Scots.and Italian team.

Disagree. There is no dough wthout us. All the funding comes from money we pay either directly or indirectly. Through ticket-paying customers, buying team gear, networks paying based upon tv ratings (the number of us watching), corporate sponsors (paying to advertise to us), and so on. It may be channeled through clubs, national unions, or other channels, but in the end, it comes from us.

Dr Grey - I'd say the diff between the Pro 12 and the Heineken Cup and 6N is that the last 2 only have a few games so if you loose 1 or 2 then you're effectively out while the Pro12 plays over a lot longer season (as do the Top14 and Aviva) where you can risk loosing 1 game and still make it up by the end of the season - all teams I can think of use their whole squad throughout the season in the league, bringing through the next generation or giving very good players who aren't quite as good as the int in that position a chance.

I agree that the Christmas derbies should be some of the most competitive games - the rugby season really needs to be sorted out as there's too many games, too many overlapping competitions and simply not enough international class players to go around. The calender for this lot of derbies was mad - the Welsh teams for example had 4,5,7 & days between games respectfully and as a result they had to manage their squads - they also had to be mindful that they had a lot of games coming up (Ospreys have a game against the Blues, then 5 days later another, then 4 days later another before going into the HEC - and that's on top of the Scarlets derby and the 4 rounds of HEC) - as a result all the teams have had to manage their players - it's such a mad way to set up a league and for the IRB to organise seasons.

I guess it is a matter of perception.
The Robo12 serves a purpose for the different countrie's teams that take part within it.
It isn't regularly as competitive as the English & French leagues as outlined above & there are reasons for that.

In the English & French leagues where you have promotion/relegation & a larger number of clubs potentially failing to qualify for the HC. The necessity to win is greater in arguably every game. Therefor most games are more intense & more 'serious'.

A number of French clubs have in the past even taken their
Eagle more seriously than thenHC something the other nations in the HC would not contemplate.