Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

There does appear to be a tendency for a run for cover under the Irish
representation umbrella to justify the competition when it comes to
European performance.

Look at the stats.

Portnoy wrote:There does appear to be a tendency for a run for cover under the Irish
representation umbrella to justify the competition when it comes to
European performance.

Look at the stats.

True, you could argue that a great Wasps side and a great Leicester side skew Englands records with six sides in the HCup. Are Gloucester only in the HCup on their coat tails.

The even bigger skew is that Toulouse (with Brive once, eons ago) bump up the French success rates.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Portnoy wrote:There does appear to be a tendency for a run for cover under the Irish
representation umbrella to justify the competition when it comes to
European performance.

Look at the stats.

True, you could argue that a great Wasps side and a great Leicester side skew Englands records with six sides in the HCup. Are Gloucester only in the HCup on their coat tails.

The even bigger skew is that Toulouse (with Brive once, eons ago) bump up the French success rates.

That is equally true(ish) (4 separate English winners). It's an argument I'm trying to hammer home in Jeff discussions. The decline of the Jeff is lamentable.

I posted stats on English, French and CL performances since 1999 over the past couple of days to engage people in discussion.

BlueMuff wrote:This whole debate has only come up cause the English teams have done so badly with 6 out of 7 teams getting knocked out. Nothing to do with qualification.

Fact of the matter is they were not good enough and the quality that the Aviva is producing is terrible.

Sky can big up the AP all they want but the facts are bourne out on the pitch.

No it has come up because of the squad put out one week being a lot weeker the next in a match a team knew they would loose anyway.

take the Irish out of the Rabo and can you honestly say that the league quality is much better that the AP? 1 Welsh and 1 Scottish In the QF

I've seen those Portnoy. But it is very difficult to drive a constructive debate about that on here with the likes of me around.

The problem with those stats is that it compares the performance of 3 leagues in a competition that is meant to represent 6 Unions. So there is a bit of apples and oranges going on. Also thread titles like this thread are a red rag to likes of me who try to defend what is still a very young competition (Pro12) when you think about how long it takes leagues to settle in and grow.

The Pro12 does have weaknesses, travelling support is going to be low due to distances involved, etc. But at the same time it doesn't and can't be the identical to the Jeff (we cannot have relegation for example, as there is no league of teams below to promote from). It has struggled for sponsorship and the big spice games remain the home derbies, we definitely need to develop some edge in the inter-country fixtures (maybe not hatred, but strong niggle at the least and a bit of off-the-ball).

Is the Rabo a serious compeitition? - No

How is this continuing for 10 pages?

Bathite wrote:Is the Rabo a serious compeitition? - No

How is this continuing for 10 pages?

Em..because you showed up and lengthened it once more. It'll be 11 pages soon. Maybe even I'm that lucky man to take us into that great unknown!

BlueMuff wrote:This whole debate has only come up cause the English teams have done so badly with 6 out of 7 teams getting knocked out. Nothing to do with qualification.

Fact of the matter is they were not good enough and the quality that the Aviva is producing is terrible.

Sky can big up the AP all they want but the facts are bourne out on the pitch.

I have to admit I underestimated the likes of Connacht and Edinburgh. They have really put in some good performances in the HC cup.

Still find it funny that people thought that Pool 3 was the HC group of death last season. Pool 2 has been shown to be probably the toughest ever - 3 teams from that group qualified for the quarter finals this season - Leinster,Saracens,Clermont.

Seriously thought that in particular Quins,Leicester and Saints should have done better.

Interesting breakdown of the quarter finalists:

4 are Tier 1 sides.- Leinster,Munster,Toulouse,Cardiff
1 is Tier 2. - Clermont
3 are Tier 3 - Edinburgh,Saracens,Ulster

3 Irish,2 French,1 English, 1 Scottish, 1 Welsh.

Saracens are supposedly the 6th best English side in regards to European ranking.
Ulster are the 3rd best Irish side.

Bathite wrote:Is the Rabo a serious compeitition? - No

How is this continuing for 10 pages?

Its continuing for 10 pages because some people,who haven't moved on from the glory days of English rugby, can't accept the reality that the Aviva is an inferior league, with inferior teams and inferior players which is reflected in the results in the HEC, year in year out. There are exceptions but the trend is there for all to see.

Sky sports have a generation of English rugby fans brainwashed into believing that they are watching top class rugby when they aren't. Dewi Morris describing Nick Evans as the best fly half in world rugby was the funniest thing I heard all weekend.

roddersm wrote:

Bathite wrote:Is the Rabo a serious compeitition? - No

How is this continuing for 10 pages?

Its continuing for 10 pages because some people,who haven't moved on from the glory days of English rugby, can't accept the reality that the Aviva is an inferior league, with inferior teams and inferior players which is reflected in the results in the HEC, year in year out. There are exceptions but the trend is there for all to see.

Sky sports have a generation of English rugby fans brainwashed into believing that they are watching top class rugby when they aren't. Dewi Morris describing Nick Evans as the best fly half in world rugby was the funniest thing I heard all weekend.

I'd say which of the fly halves in the Rabo were better then Nick Evans, but none of the big names play in the games I have watched, such a shame.

Apart from Leinster's recent amazing period of domination replacing Wasps, don't see any real big changes to be honest. Munster were the British & Irish team to beat, now thats Leinster

roddersm wrote:

Bathite wrote:Is the Rabo a serious compeitition? - No

How is this continuing for 10 pages?

Its continuing for 10 pages because some people,who haven't moved on from the glory days of English rugby, can't accept the reality that the Aviva is an inferior league, with inferior teams and inferior players which is reflected in the results in the HEC, year in year out. There are exceptions but the trend is there for all to see.

Sky sports have a generation of English rugby fans brainwashed into believing that they are watching top class rugby when they aren't. Dewi Morris describing Nick Evans as the best fly half in world rugby was the funniest thing I heard all weekend.

roddersm the Heineken Cup is not over yet. The AP's current strongest club is still in the competition. With home advantage the whole way if they keep winning there is hope.

Id say Sexton, in particular, and O'Gara have a fair claim to being considered better then Evans. Priestland on his day as well. Id definaetly take all three ahead of any English FH plying his trade in the Premiership

Absolutely Beshocked, Saracens are well in it. Some of the other clubs need to look hard at themselves though as to why they are not up to the standard rather than pointing the spotlight elsewhere.

Not to be pedantic but...Nick Evans isn't English

How good or bad the Jeff is or how many quarter finalists a league or union has is not the point as far as I'm concerned. The English stance is classic deflection and posturing, any diplomat will tell you those are vital tools in any negotiation.

I don't want the numbers to change, I just want the qualifying criteria to change.

Rodders is putting it...bluntly. And the nice man in me never would (okay, okay so some of you know I'm lying there but keep it quiet )

Look, England is stuffed with great players. It is - they are big, they are athletic, they know how to play rugby (the English version anyway - and I'm not about to knock that version, it won them a world cup, it usually gets them quite far in each WC and Munster play a little version of it themselves at times).

These players exist in England and even the players to play the Leinster/Welsh/All Blacks brand. But it patently isn't happening. Proof is there.

So why is it not happening? Because up until probably now, the English have been navel gazing. They've only been looking at and interested in their own product. And because (as Rodders alluded to) their media kept telling them their League was the biggest, baddest, toughest league in the world, they were happy to sit back, enjoy it, and believe it.

Why was it easy to believe it? Because if you have a group of school kids playing a game of football against each other, the quality will be negligible but it will still have a crowd of parents shouting on their sons and team. It'll still have all the passion and all the drama of a real Premiership encounter for those playing and those watching. The teams will be evenly matched so it'll be competitive and fierce. But it'll still be schoolboy football.

English rugby is being forced to now look outside itself - it doesn't like the idea and neither does it like what it sees.

The solution will be for it to realise that the actual true quality of the game itself has to improve. It's Nothing to do with tired players or HC pressure.

roddersm wrote:Absolutely Beshocked, Saracens are well in it. Some of the other clubs need to look hard at themselves though as to why they are not up to the standard rather than pointing the spotlight elsewhere.

Very true. I normally just blame the opposition for being better on the day. Also I blame our poor European record on simply losing to the best sides in Europe.E.g. just look at our last two seasons of Amlin and HC pools.

To be the best you go to beat the best. No better opportunity than there is now for Saracens. Potential home advantage all the way. Chance to right some wrongs against the best sides in Europe. Sounds great!

Well said Secretfly.

roddersm wrote: Well said Secretfly.

+1

Excellent post SecretFly and absolutely spot on

What's the Jeff got to do with the Pro12? they are completely different animals. We shouldn't be afraid of making improvements to the Rabo in case somebody accuses us of copying the Jeff!

Glas, I don't see that it would necessarily have improvements.

As previously said, I see real development being made by most teams in the Pro 12 as things stand. Your recommendation is dangerous IMO with the potential to wreck things if it doesnt work out.

Patience is a virtue. We have had so much change in recent years to Pro 12. Lets just have some stability and get fans used to it. No tournament rebranding, no change to teams names, no change to the structure of it, no new teams allowed, no changing the amount of teams.

Just get the fans used to it.

You would have argued against the play offs then Stag.

I was in favour of play offs actually. I felt that the competition needed a more competitive edge to it and playoffs has satisfied that.

I dont see that European qualification will bring all that much to the league.

It seems like unnecessary experimentation.

I consider that you are arguing against yourself there. Both are relatively minor amendments which would have a big positive impact on the competitive element of the league.

Ironically I was against the play offs but am prepared to admit that they have worked a lot better than I thought. I think a second dividing line in the lower section of the league will have the same effect.

Put it this way, the Glasgow coaches would have told Andy Robinson to feic off if he ordered them to rest their best players after the 6 nations last year if the change had been made before then.

Glas, I dont see what Glasgow did as a bad thing. They are seeing the rewards this season.

They finished 2nd in their HEC pool ahead of Bath and Montpellier and are in a playoff position with more than half the year gone.

It was nothing to do with Glasgow Stag, it was to do with Scotland in the WC. Instead of domestic rugby game hardening the players for the WC it's happened the other way around! It does nothing for the impression that the pro12 is a mickey mouse league I'm afraid.

The Pro12 will grow naturally and this will include more teams.

The Italians will definitely increase their numbers in the next five years and thereby introduce Italian competition for HC places. In fact I think I am right in saying the Italians have pencilled in 2 more teams as an option when they joined.

Scotland and Wales may, or may not add a team as well.
The format would obviously have to change in that case.

I think it's much simpler to agree with the proposition. Yes the Pro12 is a development league designed specifically for the unions of the countries involved. It's serious to those involved in it. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Next.

Glas a du wrote:What's the Jeff got to do with the Pro12? they are completely different animals. We shouldn't be afraid of making improvements to the Rabo in case somebody accuses us of copying the Jeff!

Glas, maybe we in the Pro12 club just have to start talking seriously and harshly to the Welsh. Because, allegedly, it's the Welsh who seem to have all the problems with the structue of the Pro12, even though their resources and qualification numbers match Ireland's. What are they finding so difficult to stomach? That they have only three guaranteed spots in HC? Tough. Live with it. Fight for them. Three guaranteed Welsh regions in HC - same as Ireland. They want more than Ireland? Is that it?

Even with the guaranteed three, they're is no stomach to fight for them? Oh just let Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues have them *yawn*; not interested in fighting for a place if the Scottish and Italian teams already have theirs and they're beneath us. Not fair *sulk*

You mention unending problems but query when Irish people don't see them. So tell us where they are. No, not from the happy hunting ground perspective of the outsider looking in and all concerned about how 'competitive' the Pro12 is and how much more lacking in intensity it is in comparison to AP. ___ Tell us from a Welsh perspective? What's their crib? ___ That they don't want to go see their sides compete unless they have a guaranteed 4 HC places available to them in HC? Or are they really and honestly happy to live with the idea that in a new Pro12, they might actually get less HC spots? Nicely magnanimous - but I'm sorry, I don't believe a word of it if that's the line. Welsh people like to win, like to part of things that might have them win and like to accept 3 HC spots if offerd to them. They're human, no matter how any of them try to argue differently

So back to the issue and the problem; the Welsh want more reasons to be interested in Pro12 and simply speaking Pro12 itself isn't enough? ___ Again, why? The Irish are happy with it. You'll say because they are winning. I'll say, yes - precisely - that's what a league is and why people want to watch it, to see their side winning it. So why do the Welsh go against the natural impulses of man in that regard? Winning isn't enough of an incentive?

Nothing to play for when you know you can't win. Mid season, lower end, knowing you can't get into the playoffs and...well, *yawn* nothing to play for, no interest; therefore bad league.

Nothing to play for? How about the future? How about keeping momentum going so that you might have a better next season? How about using the last games of the season to teach your side tricks that might help them next season? How about getting younger players up to speed that might allow you to compete better next season? There are a million reasons for interest right up until the final game. If a coach and his players don't have an interest in the end of the season when the title isn't in reach, then the coach needs to be sacked and the players themselves better stay away from the following year's pre-season. Afterall, in the theory, nothing to be gained from getting ready to be also-rans again.

I just find it so frustrating that the idea of rugby with a smile is frowned on by the Welsh of all people. That they start to nod off if nothing immediate has to be either 'won' (title) or 'avoided' (the lovely entertaining competition that is relegation). In truth I know not all Welsh people feel this way but the ones that pretend they do annoy me. Is this the Welsh of legend who breathe and dream of rugby????

Good quote from Gordon D'arcy in the IT today for those who are still not clear where the Rabo sits in the context of things from an Irish perspective:

"Players compartmentalise the season into chunks. Any satisfaction that D’Arcy harbours in terms of Leinster’s smooth progress into the Heineken Cup quarter-final will be parked until April, replaced in terms of focus by Irish duties.

There is a gradual incline in standards. He pointed out: “It is very much a pyramid. Everything builds up to playing for your country and internationals. The toughest Pro12 match is a little below the Heineken Cup match and the toughest Heineken Cup match is a little below an international."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0124/1224310671096.html?via=mr

The Pro 12 may be bottom of the priority list but it is certainly a competition that all the Irish teams take seriously.

red_stag wrote:I was in favour of play offs actually. I felt that the competition needed a more competitive edge to it and playoffs has satisfied that.

I dont see that European qualification will bring all that much to the league.

It seems like unnecessary experimentation.

As a long and boring repetitor of the anti-Jeff playoffs stance, I have to say that it was Staggy that convinced me of it's relevance to the Rabo as the lack of any threat of relegation/ HEC/Amiln qualification contests almost exponentially increases the number of dead rubbers in the Rabo.

Glas a du wrote:I consider that you are arguing against yourself there. Both are relatively minor amendments which would have a big positive impact on the competitive element of the league.

Ironically I was against the play offs but am prepared to admit that they have worked a lot better than I thought. I think a second dividing line in the lower section of the league will have the same effect.

Put it this way, the Glasgow coaches would have told Andy Robinson to feic off if he ordered them to rest their best players after the 6 nations last year if the change had been made before then.

Glas the whole point - and one of the reasons your suggestion wouldn't work is because Glasgow couldn't have told the SRU to feic off, as you say, because the SRU controls funding to the clubs and they do that in return for being able to manage and look after their players, they have looked at the competitions and (quite rightly in my opinion) said that internationals are the most important - so no players should be rested for these (without injuries), then the HEC as this brings lots of money and prestige and allows clubs to compete against the best in Europe, and then the league.

The Irish are the same in regards to the Irish pro-squad (or whatever it's called) and while the Welsh don't have such an agreement the WRU can still take the players 2 or 3 weeks before the IRB international window for a training camp, depriving the regions of the int players.

None of this will change is you change the qualifing procedure as the league will still be viewed as a strong comp but secondary to Europe, which in turn will be viewed as important but not as important as internationals.

There's the other case of how you will get the unions to agree to something which adds a larger amount of uncertainty and risks to their business plan and mean they'll have to have enough cash lying around to help out one of their clubs/regions if they don't qualify for the HEC for a few years in a row.

What are they finding so difficult to stomach? That they have only three guaranteed spots in HC?

No. Technically my proposal could see us only have two qualifiers in any given year. My argument is that is the team ends up 11th or 12th it does not deserve to be in the premier competition.

They want more than Ireland? Is that it?

No. Ireland would on past form have been better off under my proposal also.

in comparison to AP.

That's your comparison not mine. I don't care about the Jeff, I just want the Pro12 to be as good as it can be. The Irish? "I'm all right Jack" "Sit down your rocking the boat". Open your eyes boys. You may think you have the deal all sewn up, but it would only take one biggish event to knock the whole house of cards down. TV money keeps it all going now. What if Sky went bust?

Or are they really and honestly happy to live with the idea that in a new Pro12, they might actually get less HC spots?...They're human, no matter how any of them try to argue differently

They are the WRU, nothing they do will surprise me. This is my opinion, I don't speak for them.

Nothing to play for? How about the future? How about keeping momentum going so that you might have a better next season? How about using the last games of the season to teach your side tricks that might help them next season? How about getting younger players up to speed that might allow you to compete better next season? There are a million reasons for interest right up until the final game. If a coach and his players don't have an interest in the end of the season when the title isn't in reach, then the coach needs to be sacked and the players themselves better stay away from the following year's pre-season. Afterall, in the theory, nothing to be gained from getting ready to be also-rans again.

That is largely true, although it is the fans not the coaches you need to worry about. But again, if you think coaches are averse to taking the line of least resistance you are sadly mistaken. All of the above however has seen gains in spectator numbers in Wales. In time it will get there, but why accept a cosy compromise in the meantime? it's time to grow up.

I just find it so frustrating that the idea of rugby with a smile is frowned on by the Welsh of all people. That they start to nod off if nothing immediate has to be either 'won' (title) or 'avoided' (the lovely entertaining competition that is relegation).

That's human nature man. Your provinces have been playing each other for years and yet before the HC the inter-pros were apparently on their harse, or so I'm told. However the set up was there when the HC came and you have used it to maximum effect, well done you.

In truth I know not all Welsh people feel this way but the ones that pretend they do annoy me. Is this the Welsh of legend who breathe and dream of rugby????

That is the problem in this debate though. I am an attender apologising for the non attender. I would be delighted to see the Pro12 matches well supported by both sides fans without any changes being necessary, I really would. There is an untapped market for Welsh Rugby. They do everything necessary from a marketing perspective APART from improve the product on the pitch (the off pitch side is fine). This is not the only reason, I never said it was. Thomond points out a few of my other bug bears above, but this is not the time or place to discuss them.

Glas..I am not saying "Glas, you're just jealous of our success, Na,na,na,na nah!!! And yous'll never be better than us, so there. And we're not going to let yous change the rules either to give yous more of a chance to get near us! And we have bigger crowds than yis'ill ever have!"

I'm not saying any of that - you kinda make it sound like I am.

I am saying - the very same conditions; as they applied and still apply to Irish sides, apply to the Welsh. If we are winning - there is no justifiable argument you can place before me that would preclude your Welsh sides from also winning.

My point about winning Irish sides is that it doesn't always have to be the case - and by the law of averages won't be. Is not trying to wipe the smile off Irish provinces faces not enough incentive for Welsh sides AND their fans to enjoy the battle each year...and to keep knocking away at the Irish provinces until breakthrough?

Not saying we're the best - saying Welsh sides have the raw materials to be - so come fight. That's a league - that's incentive.

You already admit that Irish club rugby wasn't in such a healthy place before Celtic competition or HC ..meaning they gained experience, ability AND fans in the interval. You don't do that the other way round. Construct a fanbase and then try to win? Doesn't happen. First the wins and then wait for the fans to come or return. The ball is with Welsh coaches and players. It's their responsibility to inject the interest.

I agree fly, we know where the responsibility lies. I think it's an easy step to help, you think the downsides are too great. I think you are prepared to sacrifice Connacht and we are prepared to sacrifice the Dragons in the name of getting a 100% representation for Scotland and Italy and you say yes, that is necessary for their development. Fine.

However anybody who says that's how it is that's how it stays haven't been paying attention to post amateur era rugby.

SecretFly wrote:I am saying - the very same conditions; as they applied and still apply to Irish sides, apply to the Welsh. If we are winning - there is no justifiable argument you can place before me that would preclude your Welsh sides from also winning.

Off on a tangent but I don't think the same conditions apply. On the surface yes but I don't believe the players and fans have the same affinity and passion for their regions as we do for our provinces.

I just can't see the Welsh sides tackling for their lives for an entire half of rugby on a wet and windy night, for no other reason than pride, like Connacht on Friday or defending their line for a solid 20 min like Leinster against a monstrous Monpellier pack. For their country yes but not their regions.

That pride and commitment can't be bought or manufactured.

Exactly fly - these things will come and things are improving it'll just need a region to be successful in the HEC as a sort of catalyst for the improvements and ground work already seen for the fans to come, but that will come on the back of the exciting talent all the academies are producing (and will increase when RGC comes properly online in a few years), and the fact that the regions seem to finally be sorting out all the wasted money on poor SH imports - The Scarlets only have 5 including B Morgan, and 1 Lamont is going though have been very good, I'd imagine that the Blues and Dragons will let a lot of theirs go and the Ospreys have a handful - all very good when you compare to 3 years ago.

Besides the impracticalities I set out above - I don't see the changes you suggested having a huge effect as the problem with Welsh rugby is threefold the way I see 1. The old fans haven't taken to it as much, and prefer to watch games on TV or watch the prem only. These will be replaced by young families/kids who will love the regions from the off. 2. The lack of European success - this will take awhile but will only come by continuing to invest in the teams and structures, though there's been a few semi-finals along the way - I don't think we're a million miles away. 3. The season structure - it's so disjointed with different competitions starting seemingly every 3 weeks in a season, with players needing to be rested or are injured at various points - it's a mess and is rather off putting.

But none of these will be affected by your suggested changes.

roddersm wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I am saying - the very same conditions; as they applied and still apply to Irish sides, apply to the Welsh. If we are winning - there is no justifiable argument you can place before me that would preclude your Welsh sides from also winning.

Off on a tangent but I don't think the same conditions apply. On the surface yes but I don't believe the players and fans have the same affinity and passion for their regions as we do for our provinces.

I just can't see the Welsh sides tackling for their lives for an entire half of rugby on a wet and windy night, for no other reason than pride, like Connacht on Friday or defending their line for a solid 20 min like Leinster against a monstrous Monpellier pack. For their country yes but not their regions.

That pride and commitment can't be bought or manufactured.

Roddersm - I seem to remember the Scarlets doing exactly that last season at the Dave, when the Dragons went through something like 19 phases way past the 80 minute mark - and I've seen the Dragons do that on a few occasions, against the Scarlets as well I believe as well as Ulster.
I saw the Scarlets defend manically quite a few times last season.

I really don't think you can question the passion of the players (or the fans that turn up) it's just the number of supporters and their connection with the regions. Saying that though I did notice that there was only 10,000 for the Ospreys game in France which was a make or break game for Biarittiz, and 9k for the Scarlets game in France - and a few other games last weekend didn't have the sell out crowds that everyone except for Wales and Scotland are meant to get.

A league is only as good as it's weakest member Priest. The change may not effect the Scarlets, but my point is that you won't know that in October.

In a sense I agree, Rodders - that's just about all Irish sides, club and International, had at one stage - prepared to die for the cause. In the 70s, some of that dying was against the great Welsh - and boy, did we know how to die then.

But there is proof that life is cyclical. Now Ireland and Irish sides have a taste of ability to match the always present desire to fight to the end... but the 'ability' bit evolved. That evolved through professionalism, structures, players with ability and coaching standards.

Welsh regional rugby has enough talent in all departments (maybe a little off in the coaching field) but enough talent and in truth enough money to have at least three of their regions play to the standards of Irish sides.

The ability is there - I'm saying to Glas that fans can't and won't help that - the players and coaches will have to do the hard work. Munster didn't begin life as a European giant with the big sponsors and sexy player imports and a nicely furnished and filled stadium already there and waiting. They had to fight to create all that - from minnow stage to giant. If Welsh sides were now 1st and 2nd in the Pro12 and had two or three regular contributers to HC Qfs and SFs...there wouldn't be a thing wrong with the 'competitiveness' of the Pro12. So let's continue that fight in the Pro12.

Glas a du wrote:A league is only as good as it's weakest member Priest. The change may not effect the Scarlets, but my point is that you won't know that in October.

I disagree - but if that's the case then I'd imagine Connaught, Aironi and Dragons/Glasgow would give a game to Newcastle or Perpingnan (indeed the Dragons did). And as such that must mean we've got one of the strongest leagues in Europe!

But also if what you say is true then your plan for improving the overall strength of the league by improving the weakest members is to dramatically reduce their funding and taking them out of the biggest club competition in the NH which many use to survive and attract/keep hold of any stars they may have.

Soz but I think that may make things worse rather than better

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Roddersm - I seem to remember the Scarlets doing exactly that last season at the Dave, when the Dragons went through something like 19 phases way past the 80 minute mark - and I've seen the Dragons do that on a few occasions, against the Scarlets as well I believe as well as Ulster.
I saw the Scarlets defend manically quite a few times last season.

I really don't think you can question the passion of the players (or the fans that turn up) it's just the number of supporters and their connection with the regions.

Fair points, I was generalising a bit there. I think overall though the intensity and passion is not the same in Wales for the regions.

In Ireland playing for your province is almost as big an honour as playing for your country, some would argue a bigger honour. It's that pride and commitment that has underpinned the Irish provincial success I think and its the main difference between us and the Welsh.

The regions are still trying to build their identities and there is a disconnect from certain sections of supporters. Too many players see the Regions as a stepping stone for Wales rather a means to an end.

Roddersm - Yeah in Wales it always seems to be the biggest pride is getting one over on the town/village next door - problem is that the town next door is now part of your region and your both supporting the same team.

But I think the players are hugely passionate about their regions and playing in Wales - the only thing that delutes this is the fact we've only got 4 regions so players tend to move around quite a lot to their 'rival' regions.

roddersm wrote: Too many players see the Regions as a stepping stone for Wales rather a means to an end.

Good point Rodders, and I think even the Welsh themselves acknowledge that....and, it seems to be paying dividends, damn them!

But on thinking about that and coming from a time when Ireland (International side) was always and in reality still is my club/province (fell in love with rugby as an International contest as a child and have never grown out of it). Thinking on what you said, there are times when I have a wish that sometimes the passion of the Provincial shirt would come through into International. We're seeing that often, for whatever reasons, it doesn't.

But also if what you say is true then your plan for improving the overall strength of the league by improving the weakest members is to dramatically reduce their funding and taking them out of the biggest club competition in the NH which many use to survive and attract/keep hold of any stars they may have. Soz but I think that may make things worse rather than better

How much difference would it make in financial terms? Presumably the big Sky bucks come form those games televised? They are not televising Italian or Scottish teams that much. The Amlin would provide as many opportunities to gets bums on seats and a good run (which is far more likely in that competition) could net more than crashing out of the HC early. I'm not being obtuse, I just want to know if your point stacks up.

Why don't the Scottish teams with guaranteed HC qualification currently keep players in favour of English and French club sides that don't? Would any more leave if their team only made the Amlin one year? If the answer is yes then are they committed enough to the team anyway? The Dragons haven't lost players for that reason. Connacht always lose players to the others because of the IQ rules, not because they play in the Amlin.

Finally, if there are negatives, they only serve to spur those at risk on and if more bums on seats through the league is the result then everybody benefits in the long run.

Well I believe Sky televised the Blues vs Edinburgh and L Irish vs Edinburgh, and I'd be very suprised if Treviso didn't get a healthy amount of coverage next season. The clubs also get money for competiting in the competition as far as I know, which is added to the added attendances and coverage the teams get for each game.

I disagree with the your 2nd comment, I think you'll see far less fair weather fans turning up to a game in the Amlin that they may not even know is on (becuase of significantly less coverage and glamour of the Amlin) than in the HEC (I mean last year the Dragons were welcoming the cream of Europe - Toulouse to the Dave, this year it was Cavalieri Prato and a poor Perpingnan team).
But the loss of attendances is only one thing, that then combines with the loss of TV money, trouble attracting sponsorship if that sponsors not going to be seen in the premier club competition, and trouble keeping hold of/attracting players - particularly with less money to do it.

The Dragons have lost players though - Charteris for one, with a few more been rumoured - but that's only 1 season, 1 season is generally ok players-wise as contracts can run for 2 seasons or more, so it's only when contracts are up for renewal that the problems arise. I'd say the reason Scotland loose players to England/France is the same reason why the Ospreys lost Hook to a poor French side - much more money, the same reason why the Blues didn't bid for Hook. And regardless of how committed players are it's a proven fact that careers are short and players rarely turn down the chance to earn double/threetimes as much for doing the same job at a different club.

The problem is that the negatives can't just be used to 'spur someone on' to do better - if you take away the money from a team, or put that risk there - particularly in our league where not many of the teams are established. This then means the team has to pull money from activities like player development, regional development (attracting youngsters and fans), or let go a good/promising player or two, ie weakening the structures of the team - this then means it's harder to catch up with the teams above the next season (who have benefitted from having more money than the bottom 2 teams). It could see teams like Connaght/Dragons sliding back towards development teams again or the likes of Glasgow being almost a feeder club to the Aviva (can't imagine how that would effect the Scottish rugby fans)

How do you explain then sell outs for relegation battles in the football Premiership every season? There they have a concept of 'mid table mediocrity' i.e. not in the European qualification placings or in the relegation battle. In the Magners pre play offs that was everybody from 3rd to 12th in our league. Now it is everybody from 6th to 12th.

Also, if the difference in TV money between HC and Amlin (even leaving aside the qf onwards stage which you are more likely to reach in the weaker competition) is enough to practically bankrupt a club, cause it to lose all its star players or force it to cut back on it's core activities there is something seriously wrong!

Mind you on boxing day there were 35 people on the field during the Scarlets warm up, 35! All getting a decent screw. There would be a few volunteers for redundancy there before any structures would be weakened. As I said it's time to grow up and we better do it fast before our hand is forced.

Glas a du wrote:How do you explain then sell outs for relegation battles in the football Premiership every season? There they have a concept of 'mid table mediocrity' i.e. not in the European qualification placings or in the relegation battle. In the Magners pre play offs that was everybody from 3rd to 12th in our league. Now it is everybody from 6th to 12th.

Also, if the difference in TV money between HC and Amlin (even leaving aside the qf onwards stage which you are more likely to reach in the weaker competition) is enough to practically bankrupt a club, cause it to lose all its star players or force it to cut back on it's core activities there is something seriously wrong!

Mind you on boxing day there were 35 people on the field during the Scarlets warm up, 35! All getting a decent screw. There would be a few volunteers for redundancy there before any structures would be weakened. As I said it's time to grow up and we better do it fast before our hand is forced.

All getting a screw? not sure what games you've been watching but I'm sorry I missed them (though watching Iestyn plough the road might be quite nausiating!) - how were there 35 players on the pitch - are you talking about both sides plus 5? or do you mean the Scarlets brought along their whole squad along with recovering players? whats wrong with that - you generally need a squad of at least 40odd players to compete for multiple competitions and even then you generally have to rotate through many games to ensure they all last to the finish line (which was why this thread was created in the 1st place coz someone didn't understand/like rotation).

But if you're comparing the Pro12 to the football English Premier League then you must take into account that football is the most popular game on the planet, the most popular by a huge margin in England, with a much high percentage of supporters in it's 50m(?) population than Wales has in rugby, and it also attracts huge amounts of foriegn supporters because it's a global brand with huge amounts of money behind every one of it's 100 year+ clubs - who each have huge amounts of history behind them.
You should also take into account that the Pro12 is 2 years old, most of the teams are between 2 and 8 years old, there is little money within the league and the fan base is smaller even within the competing nations - and it's more expensive to travel from Newport to Connaght or Glasgow to Italy than it is to travel from Bolton to Blackburn.

Also I didn't say that the loss of HEC revenue would bankrupt a team, I said that it would effect them and weaken their structures, but as I said it will only become serious if they loose HEC revenue for consecutive seasons. But as you say most teams finances are in a huge mess and you could say something is seriously wrong - the level of support and the running costs don't match up.

How about a compromise then. The top 2 Irish and Welsh sides get guaranteed HEC spots. the Top Scottish team and Italian team get spots too. That leaves 2 Irish, 2 Welsh 1 Scottish and 1 Italian going for 4 spots based solely on who's highest in the league.

Applying it to last year Ulster would get a spot as reward for a 3rd place finish. Both Dragons and Connacht would qualify for finishing 7th and 9th. Glasgow and Aironi would miss out for being in the bottom 2.

Now you've got an incentive for the weaker teams (based on last years table Glasgow, Treviso, Aironi, Connacht, Dragons) to battle among themselves to finish higher. It would almost always result in the bottom 2 teams missing out. But no nation would ever completely miss out on HEC rugby.

Applying it to this year, Dragons and Connacht, on 17 points each, would have a serious battle on their hands to climb up the table. Finishing ahead of Dragons, being a more realistic goal for Connacht than finishing above Ulster. The goal for Aironi would be to catch Connacht and Dragons, who are only 3 points ahead of them.

That would add a bit of bite to the bottom I think. But also addresses the case for having at least one team from every union getting into the Heineken Cup.

FR I'd go with that for no other reason than it's a compromise that is more likely to be acceptable to the vested interests and it does indeed add the element of competition and reward I've been banging on about. Scotland and Italy whinge? Get on with improving your regions, simples!

Priest - 23 players, 12 coaches. In care home terms that more than 1:2, what you would expect for severely autistic adults.