Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

Glas, Pro12 setup is benefitting Irish and Welsh rugby. The Welsh have particularly seen it in the revival of their national team. The fact that the regions aren't getting much love from the public is unfortunate. But I'm just saying I doubt that has anything to do with how teams qualify for the Heineken Cup. But your proposal would cause huge potential harm.

Look at last years table. Connacht, Treviso, Glasgow and Aironi wouldn't qualify under your proposal. So that's a large chunk of the Scottish test team not getting top European rugby. Which would no doubt result in their desire to leave Glasgow. Leaving the academy boys left in an even worse team which won't qualify next year. One half of Scottish rugby is facing destitution.

No Italian teams will get top flight European rugby. What's would be the point of even letting them into the Pro12, if we're simultaneously taking their Heineken Cup spots off them? They had more top flight European rugby under the old arrangement.

HEC qualification has to be for all 6 unions. Fair enough if you think the pro 12 would be better if the qualification mimicked the English way. But it can't. Because it's not a league of one union. It's a league with teams from four unions.

HERSH wrote:Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Not until all the teams take it seriously.

Hersh has a point. None of the AP or TOP14 sides take it seriously. That'll have to stop lads - stop laughing at us. We're doing our best.

The Rabo is indeed a serious competition - the reason why you see such huge team changes over the course of a season is because Rabo genereally has some smart coaches who realise that you only need to finish in the top 4 to qualify for the play offs, indeed the T14 teams in France have this very same realisation.
Its the same for the AP, unfortunately it appears that many of the coaches at the top AP teams seem to think that they need to play full teams against the likes of Newcastle, Wasps, Worcester or Bath (I know there are supporters of these teams on here but there is a gulf between top and bottom), these teams are poor in comaprision to the top teams who should be able to get points with out playing their first 15. People use relegation as an excuse - um, neither Newcastle or Wasps look like winning the HC this year....Indeed Tiger, Quins or Saints don't look like getting relegated.

English clubs would do well to look towards some French clubs for guidence here. Saracens are utilising a solid rotation system and are benefiting on both fronts - Leinster really started off a properly structured rotation system with Schmidt. Both of these teams have head coaches that served their time in France and it is definitely showing to be positive.

I would like to add that the relegation arguement is a joke. Newcastle will go down - maybe Leeds will come back up only to go down next year, where Newcastle will go back up. They should really cut it to 10 teams and rid itself of the dead weight.

Glas, Pro12 setup is benefitting Irish and Welsh rugby. The Welsh have particularly seen it in the revival of their national team. The fact that the regions aren't getting much love from the public is unfortunate. But I'm just saying I doubt that has anything to do with how teams qualify for the Heineken Cup. But your proposal would cause huge potential harm.

We have a saying: "Nid da lle gellir gwell" it's not good if you could have done better. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it could be better.

Look at last years table. Connacht, Treviso, Glasgow and Aironi wouldn't qualify under your proposal. So that's a large chunk of the Scottish test team not getting top European rugby. Which would no doubt result in their desire to leave Glasgow. Leaving the academy boys left in an even worse team which won't qualify next year. One half of Scottish rugby is facing destitution.

Er, no. Under MY proposal 10 teams would qualify plus any extras for HC and Amlin winners. From last year then only Aironi would have missed out.

HEC qualification has to be for all 6 unions. Fair enough if you think the pro 12 would be better if the qualification mimicked the English way. But it can't. Because it's not a league of one union. It's a league with teams from four unions.

Can't or won't? Every union would have a chance of 100% representation then, but not every union would have 100% representation, rather than Italy and Scotland having 100% representation guaranteed and Wales and Ireland depending on results. Does it make sense that the 12th place team last year is guaranteed participation, whilst the 9th team depended on Johny Sexton dreaming about Liverpool and the 7th team was the only one of 12 not to qualify?

Oh fer ferks sake.

Just look at the attendance figures by country.

The interest is obvious to anyone without a blind eye.

Ireland is interested and the rest mildly (at best) interested.

Portnoy wrote:Oh fer ferks sake.

Just look at the attendance figures by country.

The interest is obvious to anyone without a blind eye.

Ireland is interested and the rest mildly (at best) interested.

Fair point.

Attendance figures by country - the successful clubs have built up an attendance. Not exactly rocket science. Happened in England and France too. Success puts bums on seats.

Attendance figures by country - somehow, someway somebody somewhere is trying to make us all believe he never heard of the old argument in Wales about Regionalism. Well, sorry - not buying it - if you've been long enough on 606v2 or the old BBC 606, you'll know that old story well enough and you can't just ignore it when you construct complex arguments about why bums are not on seats in Wales. Why are bums not on seats in Wales? Nothing to do with only 3!!! HC spots (or lack of competition for them) and much more to do with "Where's me club?? That's what I want to support, not these fancy 'regions', whatever they are"

Attendance figures by country - Dragons have a real chance of picking up Wales' 4th HC spot (assuming increased competition means it hasn't already picked up the 1st, 2nd or 3rd spot - why it hasn't fought for them is anyone's guess btw)

So Dragons are on course if they can beat Connacht at home. Big sell out crowds to see will they get it?

Maybe... but no sell out crowds for some of the others who are already almost guaranteed their 1st, 2nd and 3rd by halfway through the season. So their fans are still bored and not attending because well, nothing left to fight for now - they're in - not going to bother turning up for the seasons ending games. Beside, where's me clubs? I don't like regionalism.

Sorry glas I thought you meant 8 spots for some reason, not 10. But anyway...

the 7th team was the only one of 12 not to qualify

Dragons were the 4th out of 4 Welsh regions though. Why are you assuming the fight to be in the top 3 Welsh regions doesn't make Dragons "intense", but fighting to be in the top 10 of the league will?

You're proposal wouldn't necessarily heighten Dragons intensity. But it would make possible the danger of one nation not getting any top flight European rugby, maybe for many consecutive years, and as a result losing all their best players and staying stuck down there.

Now you may say that would serve them right for being rubbish in the first place. But I believe we should be growing and improving the game in weaker countries, not allowing weaker nations to fall away into the abyss. Hence all 6 unions should have Heineken Cup rugby. Like I said before, that is the whole point of the Heineken Cup and always was.

Out of curiosity, how does it work with playoffs and Rabo winners? If the Dragons came 4th and won the playoffs but were the 4th placed Welsh region, who would qualify?

HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, how does it work with playoffs and Rabo winners? If the Dragons came 4th and won the playoffs but were the 4th placed Welsh region, who would qualify?

The way it works is that it's up to the WRU. They can enter whoever they want. But I'd assume they'd enter the top 3 Welsh regions based on league position, not playoff performance. Although there's nothing stopping them entering Dragons at the expense of the poorest performing team in the playoffs.

HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, how does it work with playoffs and Rabo winners? If the Dragons came 4th and won the playoffs but were the 4th placed Welsh region, who would qualify?

hmmm, I'm no fancy expert on these things but I reckon in that kind of situation the Dragons would combined (transformer style) with the Scarlets to become the Scarlet Dragons. It could only happen in the final scene though.

The provinces in Ireland make most of their money from the rabo. It is their bread and butter. So they have to do well in it or no one would show up and they'd be a great deal poorer.

So there's great frustration on the part of provincial coaches with having to rest many players for many games. The organization running the h cup run away with most the profits so for any team competing the domestic league, economically has to be more important.

Why were these issues not raised when England dominated the competition?

And what would be the benefit to a UNION to only have 1 team represented in the european cup. Say Italy only have one team in (Treviso as things stand), then how the hay would Aironi or any other Italian side make it! Then what happens to trying to develop rugby in that country.


Here's an idea, how about the PRL quit the Heineken Cup? They wouldn't overload their financially limited squads. The Jeff is the best league and the be-all-and-end-all. Have the RFU select champsionship sides to represent England in the European Cup? Or let them swinging completely. Then the WRU, SRU, IRFU, FIR, FRR could set up 6 groups of 3 teams each, 2 less group games, frees up time in the year to more some Pro12 and Top14 rugby out of the 6Ns timeframe. So the best solution is for the PRL to F off.

What? The issue about who qualifies if the winner of the league is 4th placed region/province? Don't see what England's got to do with.

TV Money

Cymroglan wrote:Why were these issues not raised when England dominated the competition?

I'm not sure that they ever engaged themselves in the CL Cym.

This is entirely a Rabo argument. I'm just a fly on the wall.

Intotouch wrote:The provinces in Ireland make most of their money from the rabo. It is their bread and butter. So they have to do well in it or no one would show up and they'd be a great deal poorer.

So there's great frustration on the part of provincial coaches with having to rest many players for many games. The organization running the h cup run away with most the profits so for any team competing the domestic league, economically has to be more important.

And that organisation is owned by the 6 Unions and the profits are split out among those six Unions. For the IRFU, they then centrally contract their key players, and those players then play a certain number of games for each province. And when Ireland do well at Test level, it generates interest in rugby at a national level, gets people interested in the game and they go to the provincial games (the AIL loses out big style though, and the provinces do a great job themselves of generated interest and members). But the provinces benefit indirectly.

Just had a newsflash - some think there is not enough competition for HC spots (in Pro12), some think there is too much competition (and pressure) for HC spots (in AP - and perhaps Top14 too)

So, let's cut the confusion completely and extract the unruly competition within a competition and return it to the bosom of those who own it (the ERC).

Let's have a yearly draw - three drums representing teams in the 3 leagues, little balls that screw open, a man unrolling the little bits of paper to decide 8 each into the six pools. Random selection.

In that way, the bickering about pressures and no pressures would stop, the teams in respective leagues would have to use other excuses for not being interested in winning the league, smaller sides in AP and Top 14 would have a chance to experience HC competition (just like the small sides in Pro 12 do now)....and most importantly of all, the nice possibility that neither Leinster, Munster, Ulster or Connacht would get picked!

Happiness all round as then Irish sides could perhaps take a breather and try to win the Pro12 with actually their best 15 playing in it.

Bums on seats guys. Bums on seats.

Edinburgh v LI for second ever HEC QF appearance this millennium: 10,892

Cardiff v Metro for rare Welsh HEC QF: 8,091

Leicester v Aironi for dead rubber: 19,652

Connacht v Quins: 8000 sellout

Saints v Munster: 22,220

Can anyone detect a trend here?

I had an idea. I think I've really cracked it this time. Maybe the English should send some gunboats to the other 5 nations and force them to play by English made rules that benefit England? That way they wouldn't have to negotiate agreements with foreigners that best benefit everybody! Could it work?

Or perhaps we could just rest all the players and just give the HEC to a randomly selected Irish team. Maybe we could actually base it on PRO12 position to give the league meaning?

Feckless Rogue wrote:I had an idea. I think I've really cracked it this time. Maybe the English should send some gunboats to the other 5 nations and force them to play by English made rules that benefit England? That way they wouldn't have to negotiate agreements with foreigners that best benefit everybody! Could it work?

Is of course an argument that could be put forward by people who persist in affirming that the English are the fundamental cause of everything that is wrong elsewhere outside Blighty.

No Not in this case FR. I'm just an interested observer from Jeffland where we have enough troubles of their own.

And what would be the benefit to a UNION to only have 1 team represented in the european cup. Say Italy only have one team in (Treviso as things stand), then how the hay would Aironi or any other Italian side make it! Then what happens to trying to develop rugby in that country.

They would play in the Amlin. That can be the 'development' competition. Also the assumption that the 'developing' nations - Scotland and Italy - would always lose out is incredibly arrogant.

Glas a du wrote:

And what would be the benefit to a UNION to only have 1 team represented in the european cup. Say Italy only have one team in (Treviso as things stand), then how the hay would Aironi or any other Italian side make it! Then what happens to trying to develop rugby in that country.

They would play in the Amlin. That can be the 'development' competition. Also the assumption that the 'developing' nations - Scotland and Italy - would always lose out is incredibly arrogant.

I may be arrogant. But did I say Scotland? Maybe I did, but looking at that your quote of me, Scotland appears to be spelt i.t.a.l.y. I may be patronising.

If the structure/setup was changed now, Aironi are the team that lose out first. That isn't an arrogant statement, the have the lowest points in the Pro12 and the worst pool stage tally in the HCup. Aironi are improving, and give rugby a presence near Rome which can only be a good thing strategically for the growth of rugby. I'd try and protect their place in the HCup as I think it provides the best opportunity for that rugby to grow in that nation. Does the HCup have to be purely about profits? I'd argue that assuming that Aironi wouldn't be severely impacted by trying to take a place from them (even if it was to Ireland's benefit getting Connacht into the HCup, or Wales getting Dragons into the HCup) is a little arrogant in itself.

Scotland have a quarter finalist this year, Glasgow had a good run in their pool.

HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, how does it work with playoffs and Rabo winners? If the Dragons came 4th and won the playoffs but were the 4th placed Welsh region, who would qualify?

They could do either of the following;

1) Base it on final league standings and ignore the result of the play-off
2) Give one place to the play-off winner and the next 2 places go to the highest placed based on league standings
3) Give places to the finalists and have a 3rd/4th place play-off for the final spot - this could be quite lucrative

So there you go- 3 easy options for either the WRU or IRFU should your scenario ever come to pass.

You may not have said Scotland but as they have 100% representation guaranteed, you certainly implied it, whether deliberately or otherwise.

Do you honestly believe getting their Love sacks handed to the on a silver platter is aiding Aironi's development? But get to the Amlin final and then watch the Italian crowds and papers take note.

The whole system of HC teams dropping into the Amlin shows the balance between the competitions is wrong.

Well done. Thank you for pointing out several possible solutions. I don't think I could ever have come up with those off the top of my head. Do you know what the actual solution is? Or is it not specified as far as you know?

Crickey, do you expect me to look up things for myself?

I agree with Glas. HC qualification should be based on the positions the teams finish in. The Amlin is a strong competition and there are a lot of good teams in that competition. If Glasgow had to spend a year in that competition, I wouldn't expect a mass exodus. Maybe they would take the league more serious and not disrespect the competition by dragging it's top stars out.
I'm not a bitter Dragons fan. We deserve to be in the Amlin. The rules are clear before the season starts and even if only the top 8 of the Eabo were to qualify for the HC, we would still have a battle to qualify. It wouldn't do any harm for Aironi to be in the Amlin either. If they were in a group with Exeter and Perpignan, you couldn't have an argument to say that that wouldn't help develop them and to be honest, they wouldn't qualify.

Bandwagon. I really dong want to do this to you, but, Aironi's giving a prescience near Rome being a good thing for Italian rugby. Yes it would be if it wasn't a 400 mile round trip to the north of Italy for the Romans to watch their local region!!

Stop being so English manofgwent. Such comments are beneath a Welsh man, who must follow the Irish party line if they want to hang on their coat tails.

Roman Praetorians fell not that long before they were supposed to be formed and were replaced by Aironi (based up around Milan).

Qualification is up to the discretion of the Unions involved and should be left at that.

Aren't the supporters of those unions discussing it here. Just two posts above yours is a Welsh person who things they should change.

Flat Earth Society membership available here.

Guaranteed HC qualification hasn't stopped the drain of players from Scotland, indeed some play for clubs in England and France that don't qualify for the HC.

Are there's another who wants to discuss it.

HammerofThunor wrote:Well done. Thank you for pointing out several possible solutions. I don't think I could ever have come up with those off the top of my head. Do you know what the actual solution is? Or is it not specified as far as you know?

Crickey, do you expect me to look up things for myself?

You asked a question and got a list of possible solutions. It has been pointed out (numerous times in numerous threads) that each union can allocate their european places using whatever criteria they choose. I fear you are struggling to grasp that concept!!

Exactly Glas. For Aironi, the dragons and Connacht our seasons are over. We won't make the play offs, but just think how exciting it would make the league if these teams knew that they could qualify for the HC if they made the top 8. You would most probably see some shocks as teams in the lower half battled for their European lives. This would surely also increase the interest for the fans. Just look at how much adding play-offs has done. It's just another way to try an add interest in a competition that doesn't get the pulse racing.

Abso feicin lutely

And do you know what those unions would do (or just your own if you want to keep it simple)? It wasn't a general question. It was a specific question about the union qualification rules. I honestly didn't think it was that difficult a question to understand. If you just don't know there's no shame in that. I know the English ones but I can't expect everyone to be as well informed about there own unions.

Although it needn't be the top 8, I would say the top 10

I don't want to have a geography lecture, but Aironi play in Viadana about 100 miles from Milan.

I do believe that the Rabo HC qualification should be looked at. Each union should be guaranteed 1 HC spot. That would be four places guaranteed for top placed team from each union. The remainder should be based on league position.
Personally I think that Airioni would be far better served in the Amlin rather than getting beaten at home by 87 points. The years spent in the Amlin definitely stood to Connacht, it gave them a bit of guile for cup rugby and ensured that they acquitted themselves quite well against teams with budgets that Connacht can only dream of.

HammerofThunor wrote:Aren't the supporters of those unions discussing it here. Just two posts above yours is a Welsh person who things they should change.

They are entitled to their opinions and just because we live in the same country does not mean we cant have different views on things.

HammerofThunor wrote:And do you know what those unions would do (or just your own if you want to keep it simple)? It wasn't a general question. It was a specific question about the union qualification rules. I honestly didn't think it was that difficult a question to understand. If you just don't know there's no shame in that. I know the English ones but I can't expect everyone to be as well informed about there own unions.

The IRFU base it on league placings. For the sake of european qualifications the play offs are counted as a separate competition. I can't speak of the WRU of which your original question appeared to be based.

Red. Sounds like a plan. Can't argue with any of that. Connacht always performed remarkably the Amlin and it was great to see them in the HC this season, especially on Friday night!!

Is it? They recalculate only taking into account Irish derbies? I never knew that, I just thought they chose the top three Regions.

Portnoy wrote:Bums on seats guys. Bums on seats.

Edinburgh v LI for second ever HEC QF appearance this millennium: 10,892

Cardiff v Metro for rare Welsh HEC QF: 8,091

Leicester v Aironi for dead rubber: 19,652

Connacht v Quins: 8000 sellout

Saints v Munster: 22,220

Can anyone detect a trend here?

Yes and hugely depressing it is to witness.
Not Rabo related however.

Portnoy wrote:Oh fer ferks sake.

Just look at the attendance figures by country.

The interest is obvious to anyone without a blind eye.

Ireland is interested and the rest mildly (at best) interested.

I think you're right, so maybe the title of this thread needs to be amended to.....

Is the Rabo an interesting competition?

Simples answer.
No it's not!!!

Us Irish are clearly happy with the whole setup. Rugby barely registers in Scottish or Italian sports pages so I think we really can put their attendances and performances down to a disinterest in the sport in general. Something that definitely needs to be worked on.

The thing that sticks out is the Welsh situation. Going from posts on here there is a large segment of the Welsh rugby watching population who aren't happy with their rugby setup. And it's a country where domestic rugby should be doing better.

But I just don't buy the case being put that this problem is rooted in the way teams qualify for the Heineken Cup. The Irish teams qualify in exactly the same way and the attendances are good. I think the problem is the structure of the teams the Welsh enter into the Pro12 and the HEC.

There's loads of articles here about the displeasure of some Welsh fans with regional rugby. And there's been loads of reasons given for low attendances, many of them legitimate grievances

- They play in a huge half empty souless soccer stadium
- They play rubbish
- The coaches are clowns
- The big one. They're not a real region, they're my biggest local rival club and I'll never support them

I don't think any of this has anything to do with Heineken Cup qualification rules, or the Pro12 structure in general. And it has everything to do with the painful transition Welsh rugby has made from beloved clubs to new unloved regions.

If I believed changing HEC qualification rules would have all the Celtic and Italian stadiums packed to the rafters every week I'd be all for it. But I think your misdiagnosing the problem.

The fact that the teams of one nation are doing better at the turnstiles and on the field suggests the problems are internal ones in Wales and Scotland. They're what need to be tackled. Because rejigging the league won't make them go away.

Yes, but on the other hand Manofgwent has a point, since the play offs have been introduced the league has improved. There certainly was a bit of a buzz in Parc Y Scarlets at the end of last season when the Scarlets had to get a win and TBP against the Blues and hope the Ospreys lost in Italy to get into the play offs. The Scarlets did their bit and the Ospreys were very close to obliging but it wasn't to be. I was in the terrace and the scores from the Ospreys kept filtering through and I think that buzz has turned many doubters heads.

There has been a big improvement in attendance this year. Almost 10k for Glasgow is unheard of and a practically full house for Munster in the HC and Ospreys in the Rabo matches show that more fans will make the effort for what is perceived to be a big game.

However the play off will only make it interesting for those in the top six. If there was another qualification zone at the bottom it would have a similar effect.

So why was the stadium full for the Munster HC match, but not for the Munster Rabo match? Two reasons. Firstly there were a lot more travelling fans, secondly there was a lot more at stake. A loss in the HC can be fatal. In the Rabo an lbp can be seen as a 'good result'. That is also the reason more fans travelled as well.

I don't doubt that a fine run of wins and a bit of Silverware will solve a few of the Welsh regions' problems, however I think the qualification criteria is a tool which should be used so non Irish regions catch up in terms of attendances. You never know it may mean more fans travel to see away Rabo matches which will help you as well.

This whole debate has only come up cause the English teams have done so badly with 6 out of 7 teams getting knocked out. Nothing to do with qualification.

Fact of the matter is they were not good enough and the quality that the Aviva is producing is terrible.

Sky can big up the AP all they want but the facts are bourne out on the pitch.